March, 2004

The History of Salsa -- Where did it really originate?

Dear Readers, in January of 2001, it was almost unbelievable to receive two emails commenting about the subject of dance styles; and it has sparked a debate which is never-ending 9 months later.

It seems it's also closely linked to how "salsa" started as there are many books and articles written by various writers, and I found it fascinating how everyone debates on which books or writers are based on fact or don't even know what they're talking about.

So I've dedicated this page to the History of Salsa so that anyone can express their views; and for those of you who need to research this information, hopefully this will help you to find research from all the various sources.

The first article you will find is Izzy Sanabria's version of the History of Salsa (which I have permission to republish on my site).

We will post any feedback from our readers.



September 22, 2001

Izzy Sanabria's Version...

WHAT IS SALSA ? WHERE and HOW DID it START ?

What is Salsa? Where and How Did it Start? These are the very same questions journalists from around the world repeatedly asked me during the 1970s and they are still being asked today. Other questions also being asked are: How did Salsa get its name? What were the events and people that started the Salsa Explosion?

In recent years there's been an abundance of knowledgeable musicologists, music collectors and even college professors (worldwide) all "attempting" to answer those very questions. I said "attempting" because with a few exceptions, most are misinformed! I know I will be getting a lot of flack for my statements, so I will try to justify and give reasons for my opinions.

Suddenly everybody is an expert on Salsa, each coming from their own perspectives and sometimes perhaps even their own agendas. Don't get me wrong, most of what appears in print or television documentaries, etc., seems to be well researched, informative and I suppose accurate. However, a few things that bother me are the points of view and agendas I see coming through. But then again, I also have my own agenda which is to get recognition for the contribution of Latino New Yorkers. I will do this by providing to those that are unaware that the cradle of Salsa as we know it today was New York city during the 1970s. The reason most Latin music historians have such little information of the 1970s (and its movement) is because the Spanish media completely ignored that era. .. . .. . More on this topic later.

First, I'm quite sure I know a great deal less about the histories of our music (or music in general for that matter) than most of those writers do. However, if you weren't a part of the music and cultural movement in New York during the 70s, you cannot feel or fully understand what it was like to paint an accurate picture with the right information. I lived it, I helped create it and was in the center of it all seven days a week. So no matter how well they may have researched this period, it is still second-hand information. There were just too many details that even those in the music industry weren't aware of. Musicians for example were busy creating the music but played no role in promoting the name Salsa. In fact, as the term Salsa started to catch on, most serious musicians resented and resisted having their music labeled as such.

Before I continue, perhaps I should first define from where or from whom the different points of view are coming. For example, there are the two Cuban perspectives. The first was during the late seventies and the second is the nineties.

One of the first Cuban reactions to the term Salsa as a name for New York's Latin music came from Machito, "There's nothing new about Salsa, it is just the same old music that was played in Cuba for over fifty years. And they play it badly."

Another coming out of Cuba was that Salsa was a scheme ? a conspiracy by New York record companies to negate giving credit to Cuban music; in essence, stealing their music. Though it wasn't like that, I understood them because from their point of view it certainly looked that way.

With the world now completely accepting the term Salsa (which in essence is Afro-Cuban music), everywhere you turn, another name pops up that long ago coined the word Salsa, or was somehow the first to use the word. Ironically, even Cuba is now using the term and in fact I saw one of their TV shows called Salsa.

Just to set the record straight, I never claimed to have coined the word Salsa, or used it first (I'm too young). My claim to fame is being first to see the potential of the word as a marketing tool to promote New York's Latin music (and hopefully my magazine "Latin NY" along with it). I had always felt that "Latin Music" was too broad a term (for the sound being created by Latino New Yorkers) and that it needed its own name like Jazz, Rock & Roll, Disco, R&B, Blues, etc., in order to define and identify it as an entity unto itself. A new name and image was needed that people could get excited about and be able to relate to. Salsa was easy enough for anyone to pronounce and, remember. I thought Salsa was just perfect.

1975: THE SPARK THAT IGNITED THE SALSA EXPLOSION!

Its fire fanned by the Newyorican fervor, the Salsa scene was bursting at the seams. Like dynamite waiting for a spark to ignite it, Salsa was ready to explode. Then in 1973, I hosted the television show "Salsa" which was the first reference to this particular music as Salsa. That year I also launched Latin NY Magazine. But the spark igniting the explosion came in the form of Latin NY's First Salsa Awards in May 1975. The Latin NY Music Awards received greater (pre and post) mass media coverage than was ever given to any Latin music event at that time and thus gave Salsa its biggest push and momentum.

Two factors made the awards (by media standards) a "News Worthy" event that merited their attention. The first was that we publicized the event as "Latinos finally honoring their own with the first Salsa Awards Ceremonies." The second factor was our intense public criticism of NARAS for ignoring our repeated requests to give Latin music its own separate category in the Grammys.

INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION for LATIN NY MAGAZINE and SALSA

The coverage by mainstream media such as The N.Y. Times, Newsweek and Time magazines, created an incredible worldwide avalanche of interest in Salsa. The unprecedented coverage and its impact caught everyone in the industry completely by surprise and unprepared. It prompted Harvey Averne from Coco records to comment, "I wish this would go away and return next year so we can get ready for it."

Though still largely ignored by local Spanish media, the rest of the world took notice. From Europe (Holland, Germany, France, Italy, England, etc.) and as far away as Japan, journalists and TV camera crews came to New York to comment on and document Salsa; what they perceived as a new phenomena of high energy rhythmic Latino urban music, its dancing and its lifestyles.

They started with Latin NY as their central source of information and by interviewing me, Salsa's most visible and articulate (self appointed) spokesman. I must emphasize self appointed because it is an important fact that punches holes in the "conspiracy to obscure Cuban music" theory. This world-wide attention established Latin NY as "the bible" of Salsa (its primary source of information). And as its most visible spokesman, earned me the title of Mr. Salsa.

SELLING MEDIA the SALSA CONCEPT in ORDER to POPULARIZE the MUSIC

If you have any general understanding of publicity or advertising, you can appreciate the way I sold Salsa to the media, thus getting millions of dollars worth of (Free) publicity (you couldn't buy or pay for). The concept had to be presented in a way that was interesting, easy to understand and based on enough truth to give it credibility (see Promoting Half Truths).

My idea was to sell Salsa as new music (which it was) and as an integral part of the cultural life-styles of young Latino New Yorkers.

ANSWERING the MEDIA'S QUESTIONS: WHAT IS SALSA?

The questions journalists most often asked me were, "What is Salsa?" and "Where and How did it start?" By then I had developed a concise simplified definition of Salsa specially prepared for the media.

Directly translated, Salsa is sauce. it is what gives Latino cooking its flavor. Like in Italian cooking. What's spaghetti without the sauce? Traditionally, in American music like Jazz (and Latin), when a band was really swinging, people would say, "They're cooking"... in Spanish--"Cocinando!" And when all the ingredients were cookin' just right--the music hot and spicy, Latinos would say, "It had Salsa y Sabor" (sauce and taste). So what it really denotes is music with flavor and spice.

WHERE and HOW DID SALSA START?

My prepared stock answer was, "Salsa is Latin Soul. Salsa is Flavor and Spice. Salsa es Ritmo! Rhythm, the basis of Salsa. African slaves brought their rhythms to the Caribbean, mixed with the Indian, European melodies, Spanish lyrics and gave birth to Latin music. The sons and daughters came here, mixed in the high energy of New York, the influence of Jazz, added in some brass, and Salsa was born!" (I always added that Salsa's rhythmic origins were Cuban, but that it was the young Puerto Ricans that developed and kept it alive in New York City).

PROMOTING HALF TRUTHS

"Salsa, in reality, was any musical form, cultivated in New York by Latinos, upon a Cuban base, but inventing and adding something new..."

POPULARIZING the Name SALSA DESPITE STRONG OPPOSITION

As Salsa's self appointed spokesman, I devoted all my talents and energies on a crusade to popularize the music and have it recognized and respected as an art form. A task made more difficult by the strong opposition from the very musicians it was meant to benefit. I was resented and opposed in an environment of inflated egos and misguided traditionalists.

To help you understand what I was up against, I offer the following anecdotes.

After the media interviewed me, took down my definitions, historical overviews and names of most prominent important musicians, it was only natural that they'd want to interview them; the real source of the music. And believe it or not, the following Machito and Puente quotes are typical of what they and most older musicians told the media again and again.

Tito Puente: A New York born Puerto Rican that modernized Cuban based music thereby creating what I've always called the New York Latin Music. The sound that turned generations of Newyoricans (including me) from Rock & Roll to Latin music. Yet, despite his achievement, a thirst for recognition and an ego the size of a house, Puente had a favorite ( and humble?) witty anti Salsa comment he consistently gave the media, "I am not a cook, I am a musician!"

Machito: "Salsa is nothing new, its the same music I have been playing for over 40 years and these young people don't even know how to play it."

Now let me ask you, suppose I had said that Salsa was not new, but just the same old music Cubans had been playing for over 40 years. Do you honestly believe the media would have bothered to give it any coverage? I just had to laugh at their naiveté * when it came to promotion and publicity. These were proud musicians that took their music very seriously with great respect for it, but were so deeply entrenched in its traditions that they resisted change. Deviations (like the Boogaloo) were seen as compromising, bastardizing or diluting the music.

However, their pure and noble beliefs prevented them from realizing they were undermining publicity that could greatly benefit them by exposing them to new markets, new fans and, Financial Gains. Benefits reaped from a new interest in old Cuban music with a new name . . . Salsa!

Years later, to his credit, Tito Puente told me, "Izzy you remember how much I hated and resisted the term Salsa? Well I've come to accept it because wherever I travel, I find my records under the category of Salsa."

So despite all the opposition, the name Salsa caught on. Today, Salsa is known world-wide as New York's Latino music. Ironically, as Salsa became a household word, I looked around one day and suddenly realized that everybody around me had made a fortune from Salsa except for me. To add insult to injury, there's only one musician I know of that has publicly given me any kind of credit in print, and that was Willie Colon.

So why should you accept what I written so far as being true and accurate? Well for one thing, aside from having lived the Salsa experience, I have it all documented with American and international print media, Latin NY magazine and television coverage on video (dating back as far as 1971).

A Final Note on Who is Really Responsible for Salsa's Explosion

When evaluating or analyzing the 70s explosion and the people most responsible for it, there are some important factors to be considered (especially if looking for unbiased viewpoints to arrive at historical accuracy). The reality or truth is that a great number of people made viable contributions to Salsa, its popularity and recognition. The musicians who developed Salsa, as well as the people behind the scenes such as journalists, radio jocks, the record companies, the promoters and most important of all, the fans. In other words, nothing can be attributed to just one person.

In the long run, it doesn't matter who said or who did what first, but rather who or what developed it. In fact, if we were to honor the person most responsible for spreading Salsa world-wide during the 1980s and 1990s, that distinction would belong to Salsa's greatest promoter and certainly the most prominent non-musician and central figure in Salsa today, Ralph Mercado....... But that's another story.

THE MOST IMPORTANT DATES, EVENTS and OCCURRENCES CONTRIBUTING to the SALSA EXPLOSION DURING the 1970s

Salsa, like every major social or cultural movement starts with people.

Starting in the late 60s and into the 70s, Latino music, fashions and lifestyles had a major cultural impact on New York City. The new Latino lifestyle started emerging in the 1960s with Latin Soul music (The Boogaloo) in places like the St. George Hotel in Brooklyn. In the 1970s, the world famous Cheetah Discotheque became the showplace of these young Latinos. Then, following the massive gatherings in Central Park of the Flower Children, during the 60s and early 70s, the new generation of New York Puerto Rican baby boomers took over and gathered by the tens of thousands every Sunday in the park. Their immense presence literally Latinized Central Park as well as New York City itself with a new look and a new sound.

1971

The Fania All Stars are filmed at the Cheetah (August)

1972

FREE CENTRAL PARK CONCERT (drew 50,000+) PROLAM (Puerto Rican Organization for Latin American Music), started by 17 year old Nancy Rodriguez who came to Izzy Sanabria for help in promoting her idea to get Latin music recognized and played on the radio. This was to influence Latin NY magazine's continuous crusade.

PREMIER of the movie: OUR LATIN THING (July) Years later, it would have a greater impact than when originally released.

1973

LATIN NY MAGAZINE is launched from The Cheetah (January)

FANIA ALL STARS Sell-Out Yankee Stadium & it is Filmed (August) Later Released in 1976 as the film "Salsa"

SALSA TV SHOW hosted by Izzy Sanabria is taped at The Cheetah (November) First radio or TV show to start calling the music Salsa, thus helping to establish Salsa as the name of New York's Latin Music.

1975

LATIN NY MUSIC AWARDS - 1st SALSA AWARDS CEREMONY (May) * The event that catapulted Salsa to international status. Being a First, the Awards received the widest mass media coverage ever given to any Latino event. This in turn attracted international media coverage, that established Salsa and Latin NY Magazine. *

1976

The 2nd LATIN NY MUSIC AWARDS TV SPECIAL (May)

PREMIER of the movie: SALSA (March)

* Once the curiosity in Salsa was aroused, the films "Our Latin Thing" and later "Salsa" which were Pre-Music Videos, provided the world with authentic visual images of New York's Salsa Scene -- the musicians, their music and the people. This established The Fania All-Stars as the world's ultimate Salsa group.

The Fania All-Stars' world-wide concert tours organized by Fania President, Jerry Masucci and promoter Ralph Mercado, followed-up the interest generated by the films.

RMM's Annual New York Salsa Festivals reinforced New York as the Salsa capital of the world, and continues attracting world-wide media attention.

Re-published, courtesy of Mr. Izzy "Mr. Salsa" Sanabria,
Publisher of Latin NY Magazine 1973-85

Please Visit his website: WWW.SALSAMAGAZINE.COM

The Feedback....

June 21, 2002 -- What is salsa?

I feel that Izzy's article is an excellent summary of, specifically, what NY salsa is. He is answering the question without accounting for Venezuelan, Colombian, Cuban, and other latin influences not directly related to NY/American recording companies or the NY/Latin-US cultural experience. That is to say there is plenty more to salsa other than the American experience. Granted, NY was a major nucleating site for salsa growth (commercial and otherwise), but there were many such sites and Izzy doesn't tell the whole story.

I have yet to find a comprehensive paper that credits all major artistic and cultural players from all contributing nations. Josue

July 20, 2002 -- history of salsa

All depend on what music you are talking about.
When the name salsa came out in the 70s was to describe what latin people was playing en New York, mostly Cuban music.They were playing mambo, pachanga, charanga, cha cha cha, son, rumba. The term had been around for a while, since the son "Echale Salsita" ( Put a little sauce ) in the 30s in Cuba.In the 60s the word salsa is used in the radio in Venezuela to name music comig out Cuba,as well as used in the recording of Carl Tjader "Sauce Soul".

Fania release its movie "Salsa", and then the world Salsa became famous, but since their first movie "Our Latin Thing" all they played was Cuban music.

Louis Ramirez developed in the late 70s what it is today called Romantic Salsa. This style was, in fact, a little different than the Fania (or the Cuban), it was like a pop version of the Cuban music, softer. Since He start making the mambo slower and using romantic lyrics for comercial purposes.

Then, some people just call salsa the style of Ramires.Other people call salsa everything they can dance to as casino, the son, the guaracha, the rumba, since they can not tell the difference they call all of them by salsa.

It is called salsa too the way those bands in New York started to sound, it was Cuban music, but due to the fact that they had better recording studios and the use of electric pianos the way they sound was different, but the rhythm was the same. As Tito Puente did on the homage to Beny More, and it is stated on his book like this " he was modernizing a sound through new arrangements, but neither the rhythmic patterns of the Cuban son nor the integrity of the choreography was compromised". Most bands in Cuba had to record in radio studios and most of the time in live -- Abdel

July 24, 2002 -- History of Salsa

Abdel wrote:

"When the name salsa came out in the 70s was to describe what latin people was playing en New York, mostly Cuban music.They were playing mambo, pachanga, charanga, cha cha cha, son, rumba. The term had been around for a while, since the son "Echale Salsita" ( Put a little sauce ) in the 30s in Cuba"

Not true! When the name "Salsa" came out it was to describe the new sound "genre" that hispanics (cuban americans, puerto rican americans, dominican americans), blacks and jews, together were creating in NYC. Just as the blacks would say, "Put some soul into it", the hispanic community in NYC would say, "Pongale/Dame Salsa." The song "Echale Salsita" has absolutely nothing to do with music! First of all "Salsita" is not spelled the same as SALSA have you noticed?

Second, I recommend you buy Latinbeat Magazine's, May 2001 Volume 11, Number 4, with Victor Manuelle on the Cover of that issue. Read Frankie Figureroa's article title "Echale Salsita (Gastronomically, not musically)" on page 29! On that Venezuela radio comment I'll let Richie respond to that!

Now your going to tell me that Machito, The Great Master, was born in Cuba, right?
Janemas

July 26, 2002

Machito, Frank Grillo, was born in Tampa on feb 16 in 1912 ( died on Apr 15, 1984 in London, England)

He was born in Tampa, but raised in Cuba. He first met Bauza in 1926 and sang with Miguel Zaballe Sextet in the mid-20s advancing to the teenage band Los Jovenes Rendencion in 1928. Machito spent much of the 1930s performing in Cuba, including with El sexteto Nacional at Havana`s Montmartre Club. After Bauza (who had moved to the United State in 1930) came home to marry Machito`s sister Estella, his stories about New York inspired Machito to save money so he could emigrate too.

Machito left for United State in Octuber 1937 and a week later was singing for Las Estrellas Habanera. In 1938 he made his recording debut (as part of a chorus with El Conjunto Moderno), and he soon recorded with Xavier Cugat. He also worked backing "cuban-born" singuer Miguelito Valdes.

Did you Know that in the mid 30s in Puerto Rico everybody used to listen on the radio to "Casino de La Playa" from Cuba, and then Noro Morales started to copy their music. Nothing wrong, but just to let you know how cuban music has been expanded.

About the word "salsa", PUT A LITTLE SAUSE ( echale salsita). I don`t care too much, since the music was already there,long before that it was coined as salsa. You can call it "salsa", "chocolate", "manteca", "caldosa", it really don`t matter, the music is the same. You don`t see the CLAVE leading mexican music nor rock nor rap nor hip hop music. The CLAVE is the Key for cuban music, and no matter where you from or where you are or how you music sound or how slow or hard you play, the genre of music does not change.

Now you tell me, check the lyric list that Rose has and tell me how old is the song " AVE MARIA LOLA " and where is it from ???

Did you Know that when Tito Puente did his homage to Beny More most latin people in New York did`nt know who Beny More was???????????????? Now you can see how easy was to lie about the music Fania were making. Telling people it was something new, but now people is realizing all those tricks that they used to camoflage Cuban music with the name of salsa. Of course, it was easier to sell a product as a new one and as "made in U.S.A". (it was more difficult to sell that music saying it was old Cuban music sounding a little different).

Even Cuban musicians can`t make the music sound the same when they are not living in Cuba. -- Abdel

August 3, 2002 -- History of Cuban music.

I just found on the net this passage I would like to share with all of you.

<< .... the fact that what is called salsa is nothing more than the way cuban music is played outside of cuba. the nucleus of the rhythm section on a 'salsa' band was also thought of and developed in cuba, or you forgot where the conga o tumbadora was added to a septet to finish the enlargement to a conjunto, who and where added the piano, in other words, where was the bongo, the conga, the bass, the piano, the timbales and the clave all brought together as a rhythm section. we know it was not in new york, puerto rico, or africa, BY THE WAY NONE OF THE DRUMS THAT CAME FROM AFRICA BROUGHT INSIDE THE SON, THE MAMBO, THE GUARACHA, THE CHA CHA CHA, GET THE PICTURE. show me where the clave, if not as a concept, then as an instrument, was not thought of and developed in cuba. I guess you have not read up on the clave and where it comes from. I suggest you read fernando ortiz, the authority on afrocuban music, then we'll talk. right you 're thinking with misguided regionalism, you're trying to rewrite history, you didn't learn your lesson when in your interview with mangual jr. you tried to enlarge the contribution of what willie colon and his crew, which included mangual, mangual's response was simply that they copied what chappotin had done in cuba in the 40's and the 50's with his conjunto and instead of doing it with trumpets, they did it here with trombones. the clave is the rhythmic pattern that governs salsa, son if you prefer, mambo if you prefer that, or maybe guaracha suits you more. the point is that in no other country did anybody think of the clave as a concept or much less created as an instrument.

NOW IF POINTING ALL THESE THINGS OUT MAKES YOU FEEL THIS IS PURE REVISIONISM YOU MUST READ THE MEANING OF REVISIONISM, AS A MATTER OF FACT I'LL PRINT THE MERRIAN-WEBSTER COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY DEFINITION:

PART ONE SAYS: A MOVEMENT IN REVOLUTIONARY MARXIAN SOCIALISM FAVORING AN EVOLUTIONARY RATHER THAN A REVOLUTIONARY SPIRIT.

PART TWO SAYS: ADVOCACY OF REVISION (AS OF A DOCTRINE OR POLICY OR IN HISTORICAL ANALYSIS) IF I GAVE HISTORICAL FACTS ABOVE, WHO'S GUILTY OF REVISIONISM? YOU ARE, YOU'RE TRYING TO REVISE HISTORY, YOU ARE TRYING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT NON-CUBANS PLAY CUBAN MUSIC WELL, NO ONE IS DENYING THAT, BUT YOU'RE NOT STOPPING THERE, NOW IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO SAY NON-CUBANS PLAY CUBAN MUSIC BUT THEY INVENTED A NEW RHYTHM WITH A NEW CLAVE, (LISTEN TO HOW ABSURD THAT SOUNDS) CHECK OUT THE VERSION OF 'QUE BONITO ES PUERTO RICO' BY WILLIE ROSARIO WHICH YOU WOULD NOT HESITATE IN CALLING SALSA AND THEN CHECK OUT MACHITO'S VERSION DONE IN 1950. TELL ME WHERE IS THE DIFFERENT CLAVE, TELL ME IF YOU DANCE OR SOME ONE THAT DANCES, IF BOTH VERSIONS COULDN'T BE DANCED THE SAME WAY BY ANY OF TODAY'S 'SALSEROS'. HERE IN THE AMERICAS WE ALL SPEAK ENGLISH AND SPANISH DIFFERENTLY THAN IN ENGLAND AND SPAIN, NONE THE LESS IT IS STILL ENGLISH AND IT IS STILL SPANISH, NO MATTER WHAT THE ACCENT OR PRONUNCIATION, IT IS THE SAME WITH CUBAN MUSIC, NICHE FROM COLOMBIA MAY PLAY IT ONE WAY, OSCAR D'LEON ANOTHER, GRAN COMBO YET ANOTHER, BUT LISTEN TO THE CLAVE, LOOK AND LISTEN TO THE RHYTHM SECTION, LOOK AT THE DANCERS AND TELL ME IF THEY ARE DANCING CUMBIA, JOROPO, PLENA. NOOOOO..... THEY ARE DANCING MAMBO, GUARACHA, OR PLAIN OLD SON. YOU'RE ASS WILL BE 200% CUBAN BY THE TIME YOU LEARN THE TRUTH. ASK YOU SELF WHO NAMED ISMAEL RIVERA 'SONERO MAYOR', IT WAS NOT BENY MORE, NONE THE LESS, WHY IS THAT CUBANCENTRISM NEEDED TO VALIDATE MAELO? IF SALSA IS NOT CUBAN, WHY IS THE MYTH THAT BENY MORE NAMED MAELO 'EL SONERO MAYOR' NEEDED? WHY IS THE VALIDATION OF A CUBAN NEEDED TO MAKE MAELO EL SONERO MAYOR, BY THE WAY, WHY IS IT SONERO MAYOR AND NOT SALSERO MAYOR, COULD IT BE THE SON AND SALSA ARE ONE AND THE SAME, YOU TELL ME, MR ...., DO NOT FIRE YOURSELF YET, WE ALL CAN FIGHT IGNORANCE AND LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES. I'M SURE I CAN LEARN SOMETHING FROM YOU OTHER THAN MISGUIDED REGIONALISM >> -- Gaby

August 6, 2002 -- History of Salsa

Abdel you put a smile to my face because we both, as well as a few million people have something in common? Love for this music. We all did our part to keep it alive. I was very interested in what you had to say and received it with respect but at the same time I do not understand why you refuse to acknowledge this genre. Norteño, Banda and Grupo music are labeled different genres, yet they sound alike. Why the fight for claim to this music when music belongs to everyone and the world? Are the brits, australians, sweds and americans fighting over rock and roll? No! They respect each others talent without the BS that Salsa vs Son has. So now ECHALE SALSITA is not an important part of this discussion. Hm? You can print all you want and I in turn can do the same with Marty Scheller's book, but that won't be enough for you. Once we were all one people, TAINOS, and we shared the same language, food, goods, people, entertainment and MUSIC. But ethnocentrism has entered our blood and that is something we must not pratice if we are to continue to exist as the loving people we once were. Yes Machito stated sometimes in interviews that he was born in Tampa, Fl. But in an interview record for the SMITHSONIAN he was asked that very same question, to which he responded, "which one? the real one?" A very very personal person of mine just asked Graciela where Machito was born and she said, "HAVANA". Some musicologist (LEGIT)say that Machito must of said he was born in Tampa because the records could never be tracked due to the fire at the tampa birth records building during that era. So who do you believe? You swear it's Tampa and Graciela says it's Havana? I don't like to beat a dead horse, especially to those who only see things one way. My reason in responding to you was because of the statement about how and why new yorkers said the word Salsa, and I believe I gave my imput as a firsthand person. Cuba has beautiful music, people, art, culture and so do the Puerto Ricans. Why argue over something as petty as Salsa is Cuban when we all know that Pamieri, Joe Cuba, Willie Rosario and others like them played Cuban music/son, guajira, guaguanco, NY boogaloo as well and this new york sound/genre which we called SALSA which was later used by the label companies to group many genres together under one umbrella. -- Janemas

August 13, 2002 -- Abdel's Response to Janemas

It does`nt matter where Machito was born, or what nationality he was. He developed as a musician being in Cuba. My point is that salsa is not a mixture. Music can develop, enhance but is not like food where you just drop different ingredients to make a mixture. Salsa is the son, the rumba, the guajira, the mambo played by musicians all around the world with a lot of different styles and sounds.

Somebody said that in the 70`s Fania called Celia Cruz who was living in Mexico at that time. They could have called some others singers such as Libertad Lamarque or Maria Feliz, but they chose Celia Cruz because they were making Cuban music and Celia is a Cuban music singer.

I understand that is easier for a salsa singers when asked where the music he is playing came from to say that is a mixture, rather than to give credit to another country that is not his. Even, for record labels it is more convinient.

I don`t have anything against people playing Cuban music, on the contrary, they make me feel proud. But it is not fair for the musicians that really started this music to be forgotten.

Here there are some statements of people that have made Cuban music and feel proud of the origin of this music, and they are the best:

Salsa : a different manner to name Cuban music. Mambo, cha cha cha, son... all the Cuban rhythms joined together by only one name ". (Celia Cruz).

Tito Puente:

Salsa means sauce, literally; it`s just a commercial term for Afro-Cuban dance music which was used to promote the music. My problem is that we don't play sauce, we play music, and latin music has different styles; cha-cha, mambo, guaguanco, and son. Salsa doesn`t address the complexities and the rich history of the music that we play. But it`s become accepted now and it helped to get the music promoted. (Puente in Sanabria and Socolov 1990, 23) (page 16/Tito Puente and the making of Latin music)

Mongo Santamaria:

Whatever is salsa here is 'musica tropical' in Mexico. It`s just another label for basic Cuban music. It means 'saucy' or 'tropical', two elements of Cuban life. (Santamaria in Smith 1977, 19-20). (page 16/Tito Puente and the making of Latin music)

Tito Puente:

Tito also said to Loza : << There`s no salsa music. They just put that word to the music that we were doing all the time, the mambo, the cha-cha, the merengue: they called it 'salsa' Salsa is a condiment of food. You eat salsa. You don`t listen to it. You don`t dance to it, you know ? It became a popular word and all American people...'Tito could you play me a salsa ?' So I said, 'Do you have a headache ? I`ll give you an Alka-Seltzer.' You know, something like that. Now I`ve joined them. I`m not going to fight it anymore, you know ? The mambo, call it whatever you want ! You know, 'Could you play me a salsa tango ?' They don`t know what they`re talking about. Salsa is everything. Salsa is actually the condiment that you put on food. Salsa tomate, tomato sauce, spaghetty sauce. The mexicans have been using the word salsa for centuries. Mexican salsa all the time, the hot salsa, you know, for tamales. So they gave it to the music, you know to give it heat. It makes it exciting. It`s easy for everybody to say. You know even in my concerts I always tell everybody, 'Now you know, we`re gonna play for you salsa!''OHHH! It`s the same mambo I`ve been playing for forty years >>. (page 41-42-Tito Puente and the making of Latin music)


Interview to Larry Harlow (www.planetsalsa.com)

Q: Salsa or Mambo...which came first?

Harlow: Mambo. the music is exactly the same..Salsa is just a name.

August 13, 2002 -- Abdel's Response to Janemas.

Janemas, I come back to you since you look a very nice person, even when I disagree with you on some points.

You said : << Why the fight for claim to this music when music belongs to everyone and the world? Are the brits, australians, sweds and americans fighting over rock and roll? No! They respect each others talent without the BS that Salsa vs Son has. So now ECHALE SALSITA is not an important part of this discussion. Hm? >>

I notice that the New York style is different from the Cuban. Most of the time the music coming out of New York is more comercial and romantic, I have no problem calling that style as salsa. But, They, in New York, not only play that style, they also play the old son, guarachas, rumbas, and mambos and call them salsa as well.
Then you find people like Willie Colon saying that "salsa is not Cuban music".

About "ECHALE SALSITA", I tell you that SALSITA means SALSA. If you don`t speak spanish, ask. Of course, in every Latin country there are different ways to name things, and slangs. In Cuba people use to say SALSITA, in Mexico they call SALSA to the same thing. I bet you, that without this song people had never thought about that name, it inspired people since this song was very well known around the world; tell me, Doesn`t mean the same as The Gran Combo sing "QUE LE PONGAN SALSA" and "ECHALE SALSITA ?????"

Of course, obviously they are talking about the same food.

August 17, 2002 (anonymous feedback)

Ay Abdel you are an intelligent person! Why can't you just listen to something so simple as what I said? You quoted me but you didn't respond to the quote. You went in another direction. So let me quote you.

"I notice that the New York style is different from the Cuban. Most of the time the music coming out of New York is more comercial and romantic, I have no problem calling that style as salsa. But, They, in New York, not only play that style, they also play the old son, guarachas, rumbas, and mambos and call them salsa as well. Then you find people like Willie Colon saying that "salsa is not Cuban music"."

So you do acknowledge we have a style in addition to the son, guaguanco, etc.! So why are we disagreeing? lol! Are you saying that only Cubans can play THOSE styles? You contradict yourself here. If you acknowledge that NY has it's own style then you should understand that Willie Colon is talking about that NY style, yes? Lots of Willie's music has nothing to do with son.

Dear it's only different when they record or play or jam a New York Sound/style of music which most, not all, is a genre of the beautiful SON! Of course they play Son, Guaguanco (my favorite), Guajira's and other Cuban styles of music, but in addition to that, they do their NY Latin Style genre (we call Salsa) on other tracks as well. I personally know many famous musicians who call it what it is! Unfortunately the term SALSA was used to label all the music under one umbrella (thus giving it an additional definition) for promotional or sales reasons to avoid the long explanations/confusions to the unknowledgeble saleman/buyer at the other end of the latin music record business. Thus everyone is confused an going nuts! Back in the 70's when I was at the Cheetah, Corso, Hipocampo etc. it was normal for us to yell at the musicians on stage, "Play a Guaguanco! Play a Guajira. I wanna hear a Cha Cha Cha!" We the Puerto Ricans knew the difference and still do. But when it was Barretto, Palmieri, Willie Colon or Joe Cuba on stage playing something different other then the styles mentioned just previously, we yelled, "Dame otra SALSA" not "Dame otra SALSITA!" The Latter sounds weird right? lol! It is not our fault that record companies are labeling all the genres SALSA. SALSA, I'll repeat myself once again, was a term WE yelled to musicians on stage to get hot! The word was used with the same definition and emotion as the blacks did when they used the term SOUL!
Now commercial and salsa romantica is garbage. That's just poor arranging and songwriting. (my opinion)!

"In Cuba people use to say SALSITA"

That's what you say Abdel, but so far the only source of arguement the anti ricans have is the ECHALE SALSITA tune theory! And LATIN BEAT already dismissed that one. Common sense and logic rules.

"About "ECHALE SALSITA", I tell you that SALSITA means SALSA."

Yes it does, in a way; But really, SALSITA = LITTLE SAUCE, but in THAT song it ONLY REFERS to liquid! Nothing is mentioned about the word in reference to JAMMING, MUSIC, STYLE OF MUSIC. I read the lyrics!

"In Cuba people use to say SALSITA, in Mexico they call SALSA to the same thing." To food right?

"I bet you, that without this song people had never thought about that name, it inspired people since this song was very well known around the world; tell me, Doesn`t mean the same as The Gran Combo sing "QUE LE PONGAN SALSA" and "ECHALE SALSITA ?????"

Both songs are different! One is about food. El Gran Combo's tune has no point in this discussion because their song has nothing to do with the origins of the term SALSA. One IMPORTANT note! SALSA is a synonymous WORD! See The American Heritage College Dictionary.

So it all boils down to this: It's what your trying to say with a word at the time that you say it, WHAT COUNTS!

Imagine if the Haitians that went to Cuba in the late 1700's with the Danzon were to rant and rave about how the Cubans took it and stole it! I don't see it that way because it evolved into it's own genre just like (I hate saying this word now) SALSA (NY SOUND).

CHARANGA IS OF FRENCH DANZON ORIGIN JUST LIKE SALSA IS OF CUBAN SON ORIGIN, YET, CHARANGA IS AS MUCH CUBAN AS SALSA IS A NEW YORK SOUND!

Yes it is a shame as well as a disservice to true latin music lovers when they call a MODERN SON OR GUAGUANCO a SALSA! Same when they call a Guajira a Cha Cha Cha, don't you think?

Con Mucho Amor!

August 18, 2002 -- Salsa History

"It doesn't matter where Machito was born, or what nationality he was. He developed as a musician being in Cuba."

Your right it doesn't!

"My point is that salsa is not a mixture. Music can develop, enhance but is not like food where you just drop different ingredients to make a mixture. Salsa is the son, the rumba, the guajira, the mambo played by musicians all around the world with a lot of different styles and sounds."

It's a shame to call the beautiful SON una SALSA! Same goes for the Guaguanco, guarija (which some confuse it with a CHA CHA CHA). Salsa in our minds is what the NY sound is.

"Somebody said that in the 70`s Fania called Celia Cruz who was living in Mexico at that time. They could have called some others singers such as Libertad Lamarque or Maria Feliz, but they chose Celia Cruz because they were making Cuban music and Celia is a Cuban music singer."

Sorry but Celia was not their first choice! It was Canela of Colombia who Pacheco wanted but her husband did not agree to let her go! By the way, my favorite singer is not a salsera but a bolero singer, Blanca Rosa Gil! In addition to Cuban stlyes of music they also played Salsa! I was at the Cheetah!

"I don`t have anything against people playing Cuban music, on the contrary, they make me feel proud. But it is not fair for the musicians that really started this music to be forgotten."

Who says they are forgotten? If if weren't for the Puerto Ricans they might have been! They, the Ricans, have not only document these facts but have let those names be known from generation to generation! We more than the Cubans loved La Lupe! Chocolate and others! We had one thing in common, we were NUYORQUINOS, ALL ONE PEOPLE! Just go to latinfame.com and check out last year's 2001 video of the awards ceremony. Tell me what other group gives honors to every one! OHHH! And listen to Graciela sing. We brought tears to her eyes after her peformance. You know what she said? "We wouldn't be here or made it if it weren't for the Blacks, Italians and Puerto Ricans. You made us! I love you!" Maybe you can catch me sitting between Harlow and Richie! Also, it's not fair to not give credit to the innovators of the NY Sound and they include many ethnic groups, some of the greats being jewish. You are still mixing Salsa History with Son History!

"Here there are some statements of people that have made Cuban music and feel proud of the origin of this music, and they are the best:"

I know all about the statements and it doesn't make it GOD'S TRUTH! TITO PUENTE played Cuban Music in addition to Jazz and others genres, but his heart was with El Mambo even thought to me he played TOO FAST for my taste. He did not play SALSA. Remember you yourself said NY has it's own sound and Puente DID NOT PLAY IT! Later he did admit that Salsa does exits, not saying here that it was a genre he played.

"Salsa : a different manner to name Cuban music. Mambo, cha cha cha, son... all the Cuban rhythms joined together by only one name ". (Celia Cruz)."

That is right! The NY Style is not a part of that list nor is she referring to it! You gotta remember when I talk about Salsa, I am not referring to beautiful Cuban Music aka Son, Guajira, Guaguanco, Cha Cha Cha, etc. I am ONLY talking about that genre that came out of El Son and developed in NYC that we call Salsa. Unfortunately that word is used today to identify all Latin Music including it's original genre, The NY Sound. I too have a problem with it. So why don't we all call up SONY and tell them instead of us arguing? Us in general as in people. Lately I have noticed cd mailings listing Salsa separate from Son and Charangas. Someone has seen the light!

"Interview to Larry Harlow (www.planetsalsa.com)

Q: Salsa or Mambo...which came first?

Harlow: Mambo. the music is exactly the same..Salsa is just a name."

My dear Larry. I've known him for 30 years! Larry played/s CUBAN STYLE MUSIC! Did you hear what he said on Bravo's "The Palladium, when Mambo was King"?

Janemas

August 22, 2002 -- Let me quote you again, to make it easier.

<<<So you do acknowledge we have a style in addition to the son, guaguanco, etc.! So why are we disagreeing? lol! Are you saying that only Cubans can play THOSE styles? You contradict yourself here. If you acknowledge that NY has it's own style then you should understand that Willie Colon is talking about that NY style, yes? Lots of Willie's music has nothing to do with son.>>>

Willie Colon is not talking only about the New York style, because this one started to develope in the late 70s. He is talking about the music Fania was making in the early 70s, which was not yet the New York style, it was the old Cuban style with just some new sounds such as electronic devices.

<< Unfortunately the term SALSA was used to label all the music under one umbrella (thus giving it an additional definition) for promotional or sales reasons to avoid the long explanations/confusions to the unknowledgeble saleman/buyer at the other end of the latin music record business. Thus everyone is confused an going nuts!>>

Then, because of this you can not explain salsa as a New York style only, but as the genres of Cuban music being played by musicians around the world, and you can not expect everybody to sound the same.

<< so far the only source of arguement the anti ricans have is the ECHALE SALSITA tune theory! And LATIN BEAT already dismissed that one.>>

Have you seen the latest edition of Latin Beat Magazine ??????? There is Enrrique Iglesias. The magazine has commercial purposes and I bet you they don`t wanna make the puertoricans mad about them.

<<! SALSA is a synonymous WORD! See The American Heritage College Dictionary. >>

That`s right, that is exactly waht I said: Salsa and Salsita are synonymous, salsita is the "diminutive form" of salsa.

<<Imagine if the Haitians that went to Cuba in the late 1700's with the Danzon were to rant and rave about how the Cubans took it and stole it!CHARANGA IS OF FRENCH DANZON ORIGIN JUST LIKE SALSA IS OF CUBAN SON ORIGIN, YET, CHARANGA IS AS MUCH CUBAN AS SALSA IS A NEW YORK SOUND>>

You`re just confusing people, again.

The danzon was the creation of a Cuban musician, from Matanzas, Miguel Failde. The first danzsn is credited to be "Las Alturas de Simpson" written by him. -- Abdel

August 26, 2002 -- History of Salsa

Ay ay ay! Que pena me da tu caso... Obviously you don't understand what synonomous means. That is your interpretation! Synonomous means one word "ONLY ONE" having different meanings, not two words spelled differently having the same meaning. Still all those with common sense KNOW the history behind THAT "Salsita" word used in that song. Once again, nothing to do with music, just FOOD! How do you know what Willie Colon meant? Have you talked to him? It's funny how a certain group say that this person meant that without any proof! This Saturday I heard some great music on a public radio station out of Temple University. I listened to Latin Music and it was wonderful. Whether it was played by Cubans or Ricans, or any other latin or non latin country, it didn't matter. What mattered was that these guys played great music rarely heard on major radio stations. You once said, "I'm proud that they play MY music" or somewhere along those lines. I don't think, but know that you are wrong, simply because it is not your music. It's is THEIR music, their recordings (masters), their creative genius (arrangements) and their money that produced it, not you or I. It is true, some people simply cannot let it go! Their are more important things in this world than arguing about, "What came first? The Chicken or the egg." Even now I'd still like to dance with you.....that is if you a man! Adios primo -- Janemas

November 10, 2002 -- Origins of Salsa Dance

Your article is excellent. How about the dance of salsa? How did it originate? Who came up with closed couples mirroring each other back and forth etc.? And, how was it that this dance was evolving both in Cuba and Puerto Rico, when they're separate islands? Did it evolve in one island and get transferred to the other? What is the main dance difference between Cuban style salsa and Puerto Rican style? thank you, Nadia

March 8, 2003 -- The History of Salsa

I was born in San Juan's Santurce section of Puerto Rico, I Will Point out that my blood is not really Puerto Rican since my parents were Irish immigrants, but I will just explain the truth to ignorant people such as Abdel.
There hasn't been one thing that Anti-Puerto Ricans have been able to state without having solid evidence to back it up. If any person would demonstrate me the evidence that Salsa is Cuban I'm all ears until then it's Puerto Rican.

Cuban Music Radio transmissions were around the world, not just Puerto Rico Abdel and Casino de Playa's music sounded primitive, caveman like, in fact light years away from Noro Morales' music. De LA Playa's music was slow, really like Cuban music in it's purest form , while Morale's was up-tempo. Morales may have been inspired, and there's no evidence to prove it since he never stated it, but that doesn't mean that he copied them, copying is Colombia's Alquimia which sounds like La Sonora Matancera, that's copying. Morales also played music in the San Juan, Puerto Rico tradition where salsa really began during the 1940's (www.musicadepuertorico).

Janemas at times you make sense and at others you don't, But I agree about Echale Salsita, that has to be the most idiotic myth I have ever heard. Ignacio Pineiro was asked what inspired him to write Echale Salsita. Pineiro stated that he was talking about food, since the night before he wrote it he went out with his girlfriend and the food didn't taste good, he was talking about food not a rhythm. Noro should be regarded as one of the founding fathers of salsa, his song "Ponce" from the album "Brodcast and Transcriptions" has been the closest I've heard to Salsa (AND IT WAS RECORDED LIVE THROUGH RADIO GABY) , more than any Cuban artist ever got to even CASINO DE LA PLAYA, Abdel. "OR YOU FORGET THE RHYTHM THAN BROUGHT TOGETHER THE CONGA, BONGOS, AND TIMBALES".

Gaby If Your Such an Afro-Cuban music Africionada, learn, study about it like yours truly. Arsenio Rodriguez, the Afro-Cuban who innovated CUBAN MUSIC was the one who added the Piano, Conga (tumbadora), and the second and third trumpets to a typical cuban Sexteto or Septeto creating the Cuban Conjunto. O yes we're missing something right? YES GABY WE'RE MISSING THE TIMBALES, WHO UNTIL NUYORICAN TITO PUENTE, TIMBALES WERE NEVER USED IN AFRO-CUBAN MUSIC. PUENTE INTRODUCED THE TIMBALES TO ALL AFRO-CUBAN MUSIC FROM GUAGUANCO TO MAMBO, YOU NAME IT. TYPICAL CUBAN ORCHESTRAS AND MOST CUBAN ORCHESTRAS UNTIL TODAY DO NOT USE TIMBALES FOR AFRO-CUBAN MUSIC.

The clave is not Cuban, it is based on the West African cowbell paterns, which without a doubt are pure African. To my anynomous friend, yes I feel the same way you as an expert musicologist I have to say the same as you. How would Cubans feel if the HAITIANS PROSTESTED TO CLAIM BACK THE DANZON, WHICH WAS ORIGINALLY CREATED BY THE FRENCH. How would the Cubans feel if the AFRO-HAITIANS WANTED TO CLAIM BACK THE "CUBAN" MAMBO WHICH IS BASED ON AFRO-HAITIAN VOODOO RITUALS, HOW WOULD CUBANS FEEL IF THE DOMINICANS WANTED TO CLAIM BACK THE "CUBAN" SON. DING DONG did I Say "Cuban" Son? I love to say "Cuban" Son in quotes, because the Son, the national indenitifier of Cuban culture is in fact not Cuban. Evidence of this is avaiable on the album "Putumayo World Music: The Music of the Dominican Republic". The album features the true son, which originated in Santiago de los Caballeros, Dominican Republic. Santiago is another Keyword here. Let's transport ourselves to Santiago de Cuba, the Cuban Mafia headquartes and distortioner of the truth capital of the world.

The Mambo and the Danzon orinally Haitian musical rhythms arrived in Cuba through Afro-Haitian immigrants. The Mambo was originally a dance in Voodoo rituals and the Danzon was up-class music in Haiti by the French. Through the years Cubans loved this music so much, and are such greedy people that, they decided to call it Cuban music, this being pre 1840's, there's obviously no computers,etc., no way to get the information around the world that's how Cubans distorted the truth, but in REALITY the music should properly and rightfully be called HAITIAN MAMBO and HAITIAN DANZON.

In regards to son, it pretty much has the same story because the immigrants from the Dominican Republic entered Cuba through Haiti. Cubans are very good at the art of deceiving people, Cubans are kind of like Osama Bin Laden's or Saddam Hussein's who attempt decieve the world. They attempt to show the world that they are "THE MOST DANCEBLE, HAPPY, CREATIVE, AND ORIGINAL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD" which is a complete lie. Since Cubans are so good at deceiving, it would be obvious if all of Cuban music originated in Oriente (Santiago) were usually Rich Guajiros lived and played music in a more Spanish-Like way. They created the story that mambo was created in Havana by Israel "Lopez" Cachao, now see the Haitian influences and musical influence to Haiti. Cachao states that he "created" the mambo by "accident", while composing a "Cuban" (Haitian) Danzon. See the connection to Haiti, which means that those two musical rhythms are in fact Haitian.

The Dominican Son underwent a few changes under the direction of Rich White Cuban Guajiros, they added the Cuban Tres guitar while Afro-Cuban Guajiros added the Bongo's, but at the core of the "Cuban" Son lies the DOMINICAN SON. Oh, Yeah by the way the Bolero is Puerto Rican, All of you Anti-Puerto Ricans will say, haha first they are trying to say that Salsa is Puerto Rican (Which it is like it or not), then Bolero, pretty soon they're gonna' be claiming the Afro-Cuban Guaguanco. Wrong much of what is happening right now is Deja Vu, it happened during the 1800's when Andalucian Spaniards created the Bolero, they travelled to Puerto Rico and took with them.

During the 1860's, many of those Spaniards fled Puerto Rico to Cuba because the Spanish government was after them for supporting "El Grito de Lares". Cubans changed a it bit, just like the Son to make it seem a Cuban creation, which indeed was Spanish and got to Cuba from Puerto Rico in the first place. Machito, Cuban or Cuban-American? It seems to me that Machito was a man who was hiding somehting, which doesn't point out something very positive about him or Cuba. Machito had indeed claimed in many interviews that he was born in Tampa, Fl and yet in other interviews he had claimed that he was born in Havana,Cuba and at the same time Graciela says he was born in Havana,Cuba. Then you got biographies of Machito which state he was born Frank Grillo and others Francisco Grillo. Some biographies even state that he was born in Havana,Cuba but learned to play music in Tampa, while others contradict this and state that he learned to play music in Havana. What was Machito hiding is my question? Why didn't he ever, state his real place of birth? Mr. Grillo must have been hiding something that he never wanted people to find out. "Cubans couldn't compete with Nuyoricuans/Puerto Ricans because they didn't have access to electric pianos and fancy recording studios as most were based in Cuba and made many live recordings." All false, just because Beny More was based and recorded in Cuba all of his life dosen't mean all Cubans did.

What about Perez Prado? He wasn't based in the United States, but did in fact had access to electric pianos, etc. In particular because he in fact, recorded in fancy studios, to be percise RCA Mexico. Arsenio Rodriguez was based in New York and so was Chano Pozo so what is this bull and pathetic excuse about not being able to compete? Ah, yes did I forget Sonora Mantancera, among others, which refused to change their sound even after they had moved from Cuba to New York, even though they recorded in fancy studios and had access to electric pianos,etc.

What about the Guaracha? Guarachas are originally Spanish, they arrived in Cuba, but was originally a Spanish creation. In Cuba they africanized it, and it came to be a guaracha like the ones Celia Cruz played with La Sonora Matancera. The Guaracha became quite popular in Puerto Rico, BUT YOU NEVER HEAR PUERTO RICANS SAYING THAT GUARACHAS ARE PUERTO RICAN JUST LIKE CUBANS SAY THAT THE DANZON IS CUBAN OR SON CUBAN. ABDUL YOU'RE ADMITTING THAT CHARANGA IS NOT CUBAN? VERY WELL THEN THERE YOU HAVE IT ANOTHER RHYTHM WHICH IS NOT CUBAN. AND YES CUBAN OWE THEIR LIFES TO PUERTO RICANS, JUST AS JANEMAS SAYS. Like Graciela said Cubans wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for Puerto Ricans. Cubans are the most greedy people in the world and are never happy and consequently try to have everybody else live an un-happy life just like them. This is yet another proven-fact. Even though the mambo is an Afro-Haitian dance (not Afro-Cuban) there is a big dispute, particularly in Mexico (which favors Perez Prado) between Perez Prado and Cachao (Neither created it and you know why).

Then comes the Cha Cha Cha, but is it Cha Cha Cha or Cha Cha (Double Mambo), Some say it was created by Enrique Jorrin y Orquesta America and others say by Cuban artists in New York, what's the truth? Tito Puente should never have given his opinion about this because he was not a Salsero like Janemas said. Puente played Afro-Cuban music and Jazz not Salsa. The only thing I'll agree with Cubans is the part the Machito said, "These young people don't play it right." That is very true Puente was in fact a very un-talented person. Instead of making a big contribution to Afro-Cuban music he mutated it, his Mambos were really un-tasteful and lacked flavor. Puente didn't even know how to play Mambos, just listen to "Baila Como Es" that just sounds like some other type of music compared to Xavier Cugat's "Mambo Mania". Celia Cruz "La Reina de La Salsa", And may I ask who gave her that name? It was Tito Puente, not Cubans. "Salsa is just a term for all Cuban rhythms, the Guaguanco, The Cha Cha Cha, the Son, the Guaracha" - Celia Cruz. How hypocrit, for a woman who called Salsa the song "Usted Abuso" which was Salsa based on Afro-Brazilian Rhytms. "Why is Maelo always caleld "El Sonero Mayor"., why not "El Salsero Mayor" - Gaby.

First off Salsa existed but was not called Salsa during the times this occured, remember Beny More died in 1962 because of his severe drinking problem. Second, Cubans control the Latin Musical world and have made popular the term Sonero for ALL SALSA artists, a term which was originally used for players of the "Cuban" Son, but that know means Salsero. Cubans are such greedy people and glutons that they want to plant the Cuban flag on everything that is Latino. This all started after 1959 when many fled to Miami,FL. During the same time, the first Latin TV stations were created. SBS (Spanish Broadcasting System) was the first television company in the United States's mainland. Created by hard working Mexican-Americans and Mexican immigrants and was based in San Antonio, Texas. The other being Telemundo which was created by Hard Working Puerto Ricans and was based in San Juan, Puerto Rico.

During the late 1970's Mafia Cubans purchased both and re-located them to Hialeah,FL (a city made up of over 98% Cubans). This gives you an idea of the kind of people Cubans are. How come Cubans have stoled our Puerto Rican tunes millions of times and the world has let them? Abdul why don't make some research you moron, and take time to see the many songs Cubans have called Cuban even though they are old Puerto Rican tunes. From Piel Canela (Bobby Capo), El Cumbanchero (Rafael Hernandez), Cachita (Rafael Hernandez), Amor Perdido (Pedro Flores), Obsesion (Pedro Flores), Nuestro Juramento (Benito de Jesus) to Olvidame (Roberto Cole).

"Cubans are VERY ORIGINAL PEOPLE and Owe very little to Puerto Rico" Total misinformation and lie. Cubans owe very much to Puerto Rico. Not Only because like Janemas said, Puerto Ricans have documented Cuban music many times we have also influenced them. Guajiras can some times be confused with cha cha cha's like Janemas said, but those are "Guajiras de Salon" created by Guillermo Portabales. Let's go into the real Guajiro rhythms of Cuba. Celina Gonzalez is one of the biggest exponents of Cuban Guajira music. She dedicated a song to Puerto Rico called "Canto A Borinquen" which sounds a bit Rican. "Yo Soy El Punto Cubano" sounds a bit Rican also. But what about "Alborada Guajira" also performed by Albita. A Le Lo Lay is Sung and that is anything but Guajiro. A Le Lo Lay is 100% Puerto Rican, it was sung Puerto Rican Jibaros (equivalent to Cuban Guajiros/Hillbillies/Rural Workers) while they were working. Many other songs that Celina sings, most of which she wrote, have the Le Lo Lay in them. Guillermo Portabales another performer of Guajiro Music, has perfored the Jibaro Seis Chorreao, sung Le Lo Lays, and Played music in the Puerto Rican Jibaro traditions. The same applies to Trio Matamoros and Los Guaracheros de Oriente who played the song "Oiga Mi Le Lo Lay".

"During the late 1970's Fania coined the term Salsa for commercial purposes", Johnny Pachecho in an interview also says that "HE" coined the term salsa. "It's Cuban music originally". Pacheco didn't know jack about Salsa. One of the most overshadowed pioneers and founding fathers of Salsa are Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz. To say Salsa is to say Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz. The founding steps of Salsa had already been made by Noro Morales who played the New York Mambo, a variant of the "Cuban" (Haitian) Mambo created by Puerto Ricans. Cesar Concepcion succesfully fused the Puerto Rican Plena with the New York Mambo, and Cortijo y Su Combo innovated the Bomba y Plena and gave it an orchestra sound, setting the basic steps for Salsa. Richie & Bobby did the ultimate. They took the Puerto Rican Bomba and Plena (the versions that had already been given the orchestra sound), the New York Mambo, the Afro-Cuban Guaguanco, the Cuban Pachanga, and the Cuban Cha Cha Cha and fused it together, WALLA' Salsa is born. Cruz & Ray are beloved amongst many Venezuelans because they dedicated many songs to Venezuela, in particular because Richie had a DJ friend in Venezuela. Even the Old Afro-Cuban music that Ray & Cruz played sounded light years and much better than the one Cubans played, just listen to "Here Comes Richie Ray", a Guaguanco which sounds just beautiful. This is the very truth as to how Salsa came to be what it is today, as i've said the basic steps were made by Coritjo, Concepcion, & Morales, the next step was to finish it and Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz finsished it by creating Salsa.

In Venezuela, Richie's friend told hime "I've never heard such catchy music in my life before" "It's a new rhythm right?", "So what is it called?" Richie smiled and said it's ketchup, it's Salsa. From that day on Salsa was an official rhythm, but it would take long for Cubans to spread a rumor which later became a myth that it evolved from the "Cuban"(Dominican) Son. One of the mistakes that Cubans hoped would occur, and that in fact did occur was that a traditional Cuban song such as "Echale Salsita" would be called Salsa to protest about the subject. Richie's Venezuelan friend did in fact commit that mistake and called old "Cuban" (Dominican) Sones Salsa and the controversey began. "Puerto Ricans have had, throughout their history, a problem with indentity, and this was particularly caused by the United States' presence in Puerto Rico." Totally false, although the United States presence did affect Puerto Rico, it was easy for Puerto Ricans to move back and forth, to and from New York.

After Ricans arrived in New York many Cubans began arriving and younger Ricans caught on "Cuban" music. What is that mean?, "Puerto Ricans are still ashamed of their culture and are not proud of their music like Cubans are!" Their music? Let me get something straight, much of the Cuban music that came to be has foreign influence, either from France or Haiti or the Dominican Republic and Even Puerto Rico. If Cubans are so proud of their music, how come, very little artists perform traditional Guajiro music? Everybodby has their weak spot and just remember that.

How Could anybody say that Puerto Ricans are ashamed of their music. Puerto Ricans are the most proud people of their music in the world. Nobody could play to beat of Any Puerto Rican rhyhtm including Salsa, not even Cubans, and sounded out with a spoon or a set of car keys or whatever they find to create a beautiful rhythmic sound. In many places in Puerto Rico, specially during festivals you'll see Pleneros around. When christmas time comes all of Puerto Rico dances to the beat of Aguinaldos and other Jibaro Music. This is one of the main problems that occurs today, many people know very little or nothing about Puerto Rican folk music, and the musics' contribution to Salsa and Latin Pop music in General.

To all of you Moronic Anti-Ricans like Abdul, I suggest you take trip to Loiza Aldea, Puerto Rico. The center of African culture in the Western Hemisphere and take some classes on Afro-Puerto Rican Drumming to observe how much Afro-Puerto Rican Drumming influenced Salsa. Wow!, Big deal "Cubans have been able to create different, new rhythms despite the embargo like Mozambique, Songo, Pilon, and Timba". SO WHAT! Nuyoricans created the Boogaloo, while Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz created the Jala-Jala, Recently William Cepeda created Afro-Puerto Rican Jazz, and Puerto Rico's newest creation the Reggeaton is beloved by Rican Teens.

In regards to Timba, Timba is just a cheap copy of Cortijo's Legendary "Time Machine" Album, Because 99.999999999999% Percent of all Timbas are arranged the way songs were arranged in Cortijo's "Time Machine". To conclude what about Cubans like Issac Delgado Who states that he plays different music. Delgado states "I play different music I take PUERTO RICAN SALSA, and mix it with CUBAN SONGO". SALSA IS PUERTO RICAN AND WILL ALWAYS BE PUERTO RICAN, BORICUA HASTA LA MUERTE. VIVA PUERTO RICO.

March 16, 2003 -- The History of Salsa

Your response was excellent! I was thrilled to read it. I must of not made sense to you if the post was after 2am! But really, I do have my views on the New York Sound and it's distinction from the Son, which I always believed came from Hispañola. You hit it right on the CLAVE! AFRICAN! Maelo was not called a Salsero per say because he was not only a singer, but the best improviser who could Sonear on the spot! And that is a SONERO, while a Salsero can be a non-singer like a musican/dancer. Don't you agree?

"I was born in San Juan's Santurce section of Puerto Rico, I Will Point out that my blood is not really Puerto Rican since my parents were Irish immigrants,"

On the quote above, I'll provide a link for you to view my ideas on this subject. Puerto Rican is a nationality with many bloodlines and ethnic groups. My great grandmother was from Ireland, yet her immediate family came to identify being Puerto Ricans because they lived, and had their children there. Most Irish Spainish are Gallegos.

My post starts 2nd to last on this thread page: page.http://puertorico.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=3885&pagenumber=2

April 8, 2003 -- history of salsa

Did you really expect the music that was taking a new life of its own from the 60's& 70's, being played by:

-Rafael Cortijo y su Combo con Ismael Rivera
-Willie Colon/Hector Lavoe
-Ray Barretto
-Eddie Palmieri
-Charlie Palmieri
-Tommy Olivencia
-Willie Rosario
-Mario Ortiz
-Bobby Valentin
-Roberto Rhoena y su Apollo sound
-Larry Harlow
-El Gran Combo
-Conjunto Libre
-Tipica '73
-Ralphy Leavitt Y La Selecta
-Johnny Pacheco Y su Tumbao
-The Fania All-Stars
-La Sonora Poncena
-Los Hermanos Lebron / Lebron brothers
-Joe Cuba(he is Boricua)y su Sexteto
-Angel Canales
-Ismael Miranda
-Cheo Feliciano
-Pete El Conde Rodriguez
-Richie Ray Y Bobby Cruz
-Louie Ramirez
-Luis Perico Ortiz
-Marvin Santiago
-Ruben Blades
-Conjunto Clasico
-Bobby Rodriguez Y la Compania

If you notice I tried to keep it just 1960's & 70's era.
Now do you think that there music should be called Cuban music??? I'll ask you another question. Do you think it's fair to simply call there music Cuban music??? There is not one Cuban mentioned there. Don't you see to just call this music Cuban, is to not recognize the Puert Ricans powerful contributions.The Pure fact is that the bands/orquestras that i mentioned are the ones that made "Salsa" what it is today, and that is a pure fact!!!!!!
You don't have to be a scientist to realize that.
-Salsa por la manana, Salsa por el medio dia, Salsa por la tarde, Salsa por la noche, y Salsa hasta la madruga!!!

El Lapiz "Salsero De Verdad"!!!

April 12, 2003 -- About the Boogaloo ( forum of History of Salsa )

Pury I recall the name of the song from the 50`s played by Julio Gutierres where the singer mentioned the timbal player, its name is "Me voy para vigo". I also wanna say that the Boogaloo is just the son montuno, to realize that people just need to listen to Benny More in "Que Bueno Baila Usted" (from the 50`s) and compare that music to the boogaloo "Micalea" by Peter Rodriguez, you will see that the music and the rhythm is the same. -- Karioca

April 14, 2003 -- History of Salsa (sauce MMMMMMM!!!)

PERDONAAAAA SAAAAAAAYYYY!!! The boogalu comes from where i come NYC, New York. Come to New York & talk that CACAAA!!! --EL LAPIZ SALSERO DE VERDAD!!

April 15, 2003 -- History of salsa.

Lapiz, caca is what your grandmother does in the toilet. The boogaloo is just the son montuno, to realize that nobody need to go to New York city, just need to listen to the music.

I just saw the movie "IMPERE", about some young puertorricans living in New York, and it is really shameful to see how all latin music was played in the film was cuban music (boleros, guaguanco, etc). The didn`t have the proud of showing some puertorrican music, such as plena or bomba -- Karioca

April 16, 2003 -- The History of Salsa (response to Karioca)

Karioca, at least my grandmother realeases it (the caca) in the toilet,while your grandmother eats it!!! Caca is what you eat - "Come Mierda", since you talk it so much!!! By the way my grand mother has passed(RIP). show some class,lets leave them out of this.

About the music. Boricuas has so many types of music that to include it in one simple tape would be a little far fetched especially if it's on Salsa. So if we were going to do a video on salsa itself, on that music alone we have a huge history. La Bomba in itself has it's Rich & unique style. LA Plena well if you ever wondered why Puerto Rico produces so many Soneros it is because of La Plena. To sing Plena you must be a sonero & have the gift of improvisation. Now the Seis Chorreao(Jibaro music)has several styles: -Seis Mapeye -Seis del Dorado -Seis con Decima
-Bordonua -Zapateao -Orocovis
-Tiple -Bombeao -Aguinaldos
-Requinto -Enojao
there are more.

About the Boogalu /Boogaloo(same thing)it's not just a Son Montuno. You don't dance it like a Son Montuno. The Boogalu has it's own dance.You don't dance it like a Cha Cha Cha, Salsa, Son Montuno, Guaracha, Etc... You know why??? Cause the Nuyoricans & NY-Afro Americans(my Black Brothers)were the ones that started this dance & style. Have you ever seen anyone dance the Boogalu??? Come down to NYC,and i don't mean the clubs.Go to the block parties & street fairs Uptown, to El Barrio, The South Bronx, Los Sures in Brooklyn, or Orchard beach in the Bronx. There is where you'll see people dance the Boogalu the right way.

Your comments about it being shameful cause the video only showed Boricuas playing Cuban music well what's wrong w/ that??? Now I must say that we Boricuas are very proud of our musics All of them Salsa, Bomba, Plena, Seis Chorreao,La Danza, Y el Bolero. Not just Salsa.

About that Video tape called "Impere" I will make it my business to watch it(that's what i like about these boards, you get info wether you like it or not. But if you really want to see a good & well informative video tape about Nuyoricans / Puert Ricans see Opius Salsa of NYC or the one of Puerto Rico(which includes a lot of the Bomba Y Plena).

Joe Cuba(a Boricua) Had a big Boogalu hit called "Bang Bang" Tito Puente once yelled out to him(in reference to the mentioned song)hey Sonny(that was Joe Cuba's name) you are going off la clave!!! To which Joe Cuba yelled back Freak La Clave!!! My song is #1 on the charts and yours is not & i'm making money$$$.

The great Hector Lavoe w/ Wille Colon sings a Boogalu song called "Eso Se baila asi" it goes like this -Boogalu no va conmigo, oyelo y bailalo tu- Hector actually says on the song "that he doesn't know how to dance it & that it's simply not him.

-Dicen que tu querias mas Boogalooooooo....Pues toma boogalu-El Gran Combo(song i s called Boogalu de Gran Combo)

-Mi boogalu tiene sabor a San Juan- Ismael Rivera y Cortijo y su Combo(Bamba Cure)

El Lapiz "Salsero De Verdad"

April 21, 2003 -- The history of salsa.

The same issue that happened to the danceble Cuban music happened to the Bolero, with the only diference that the bolero still has its original name.

Since when the bolero is puertorican music ??????
The bolero, played by almost all latin country, was born in Cuba.

Some musicians recognize Cuban music. For instance, Jimmy Bosh has a cd called "Salsa Dura", but when you see the credits you can see how he identify each song with its rhythm (songo,guaguanco,son,...). -- Karioca

April 22, 2003 -- History of Salsa

I never meant to implied that bolero is Puerto Rican music. in fact i don't care about that. My point was about the Boogalu & your remarks about PR's should be ashame because they were only playing Cuban music in that video tape called Impere, instead of there own. And i just prove to you about the many different types of music that are our own. And why is it that we play Salsa soooo good??? Just accept the fact that NYC has it's own style & that is what the people refers to as salsa. And that is why we call it our own. It's as simple as that.

Yo soy Salsero de verdad, salsero de verdad,salsero de verda-ahh- ahhh -El Lapiz

April 24, 2003 -- The history of salsa.

<< And why is it that we play Salsa soooo good??? >>

Because in the 50s, when the cubans started to come to New York city, the puertorricans quit playing bombas and plenas to start playing all kind of cuban music. I still prefer to listen to Cuban bands; the puertorrican style is more commercial, and most lyrics are just about love. -- Karioca

April 29, 2003 --Response to Karioca

Puerto Ricans are still playing Bomba y Plena.
Mi "socio" you are so wrong. True what the radio is playing it is commercial salsa love songs. (To be honest I like love songs too. I mean there is a time to be romantic also.) But the movement is on, "Salsa Dura" is back. and let me point out to you that 95% of the salsa orquestras in NYC are playing Salsa Dura . Do you know that out here in NYC the local salsa bands are producing salsa dura & they are not getting any radio play.The radio never plays their music. So you see, even the Nuyorican salseros are not being played in the radio in the own town. Imagine even in your own home the radio ever plays your music. Nor have they ever been advertised in the local newspapers. Here are some bands off the top of my head: -The Spanish Harlem Orquestra -Son Boricua -Wayne Gorbea, Salsa Picante -Jimmy Bosch, Salsa Dura -Los Soneros del Barrio -Grupo Caribe -TMC (The Music Club) -Manny Oquendo, Conjunto Libre -Conjunto 344

None of these Orquestras are commercial salsa & they don't ever get any air play in the radio. Take for instance The Spanish Harlem Orq who were up for best salsa song of the year(to me this was the best salsa Cd of the year, that's my opinion) and I have not yet heard one of their songs in the radio. So my friend depends are what clubs that you are going to. Here in NYC at least the clubs are playing the salsa bands that i mentioned. at least the clubs got it right. You like Cuban salsa, more power to you. But I like Nuyorican / Puerto Rican salsa. To each it's own.

El Lapiz "Salsero de Verdad" !!

June 6, 2003 --The History of Salsa... Izzy Sanabria's Version

Some body here knows who was Fidias Danilo Escalona?

El musicólogo Pierre Goldman dice que la primera vez que se escuchó, relacionada con la música, fue a finales de los sesenta, dicha por el locutor venezolano Danilio Fidias Escalona, quien tenía un programa radiofónico en Caracas dedicado exclusivamente a la difusión de los géneros afroantillanos titulado "La Hora de la Salsa". Aunque, según otros, su despegue como movimiento se da a partir de 1966 con la edición del disco "Llegó la salsa", de los venezolanos Federico y su Combo. Esto sin contar con que ya antes, mucho antes, Ignacio Piñeiro "El poeta del son", desde Cuba provocaba a los bailadores con aquello de "?échale salsita" -- Maximiliano Solorzano

June 20, 2003 -- Salsa es Boricua!

While some respected cuban music historians have popularized the myth that salsa originated in Cuba the earliest evidence of it was in the Puerto Rico with Rafael Cortijo and Ismael Rivera. Salsa started having as background the rich heritage of the Plena, the Afrocaribean form of music that that evolved in Puerto Rico and the influence of more melodic rhythms brought in and developed by mainline Puerto Rican musicians that lived in the United States during the 20's, 30's and 40's and began returning to Puerto Rico after the second world war. These arrivals not only gave the newer Puerto Rican musicians a rich treasure of sounds from all over Latin America, including the Cuban Son and the Guaracha, but also placed on them the responsibility of being creative before those that knew the difference between talent and gimmickry. So the emerging Puerto Rican musician generation began to experiment in new combinations and ways to improve the established styles such as plena.

It is here as in other times across the history of Cuba and Puerto Rico that music met. The presence in the island of a group of Cuban exiles product of the Batista dictatorship together with the return to the island of seasoned Puerto Rican musicians that were versed in , among others, Cuban music meant that the Cuban rhythms, and in particular the "Son" also made his presence and were accepted and adapted to the mix. The young generation of Puerto Rican musicians in Puerto Rico had all the ingredients for a "sauce" of musical forms or "salsa" as it came to be known.

Cuban music was instrumental in the development of the salsa. There is no salsa as we know it without the Cuban Son. The elements of the Son are visible at every turn of the salsa's first ten years of history. But from this to imply that salsa originated in Cuba by Cuban musicians is a stretch of the imagination in light of the evidence.

Latter, this new format moved to Cuba with the arrival of the revolutionaries. The new arrivals in Oriente brought with them not only a political revolution but also a musical revolution. And Cuba easily adopted this music that they saw as coming from Oriente. For them it was easy because they too had an afrocaribean musical background and the strong presence of elements of the Cuban Son in salsa made it feel as an evolution of their own music. Thus, by the time of the formation of the anti Castro Cuban exile community in the US salsa was already a new musical form in Puerto Rico that had moved to Cuba.

Incidentally, this is not the first time that something like this happens. While many historians say that the latin american bolero started in the early 1880's in Cuba this type of bolero actually developed from the andaluzan bolero via Puerto Rico. The andaluzan bolero that arrived to Puerto Rico in the XIX century underwent a transformation in structure as well as in tempo. However, it did not saw its discovery to the outside world until it arrived to Cuba in the early 1880's. There it kept its new structure but its tempo was further accelerated. It came to Cuba after the Lares uprising with the arrival in Cuba of exiled Puerto Rican revolutionaries fighting against the Spanish rule.

In the early 60's this new form of Puerto Rican music later called salsa was taken to New York to satisfy the demand for things Puerto Rican from the now established community that developed as a result of the migration of almost half a million Puerto Ricans to New York during the 50's. At the same time, however, a new massive migration, this time of Cubans, was taking place. But their main goal was the city of Miami in Florida.

The need of the Cuban exile community to develop a new "Cuban American" personality acceptable for all in the US moved them to adopt some modes of other groups that preceded them. They took as they see fit and claimed as their creation some popular cultural trends that had not been claimed by others before. Hence the myth that salsa started in Cuba. This was aided in part by a slew of excellent refugee writers that came to the US as a result of the closing of several Cuban newspapers in the island. Some of these writers were , and still are, respected chroniclers of the Latin entertainment scene that have produced very valuable historical documents. However, they tend to have a certain Cuban bias that produces a distorted interpretation of facts as it pertain with creations that have some elements of Cuban influence.

Also some ascending Cuban musical performers headed further up north, to New York and found that acceptance was easier if they adopted the music of the dominant hispanic community. La Lupe, for example, was accepted not for guarachas or other distinctively Cuban sounds but for performing the same music that the Puerto Ricans played and danced to at the time of her arrival.

Hence the myth that salsa came from Cuba comes from the fact that it has strong elements of Cuban music, especially of the Cuban "Son", the over zealousness of the Cuban writers that can not come to terms with the fact that some other people took the Cuban Son and other styles and created something as impacting as salsa and the adoption of it into the acts of arriving Cuban performers.

The evidence, however, points in another direction. Not only there is evidence that salsa started in the late 50's in places like Santurce, Puerto Rico but there is also ample evidence that the ones that helped to transport it to the international arena were for the most part Puerto Ricans and in particular Puerto Ricans that were from New York or that at a certain point of their life lived in New York. If salsa had originated in Cuba its spread would have been from Miami on out and not from New York on out.

The poin