The
Feedback....
June
21, 2002 -- What is salsa?
I
feel that Izzy's article is an excellent summary of, specifically, what
NY salsa is. He is answering the question without accounting for Venezuelan,
Colombian, Cuban, and other latin influences not directly related to
NY/American recording companies or the NY/Latin-US cultural experience.
That is to say there is plenty more to salsa other than the American
experience. Granted, NY was a major nucleating site for salsa growth
(commercial and otherwise), but there were many such sites and Izzy
doesn't tell the whole story.
I
have yet to find a comprehensive paper that credits all major artistic
and cultural players from all contributing nations. Josue
July
20, 2002 -- history of salsa
All
depend on what music you are talking about.
When the name salsa came out in the 70s was to describe what latin people
was playing en New York, mostly Cuban music.They were playing mambo,
pachanga, charanga, cha cha cha, son, rumba. The term had been around
for a while, since the son "Echale Salsita" ( Put a little
sauce ) in the 30s in Cuba.In the 60s the word salsa is used in the
radio in Venezuela to name music comig out Cuba,as well as used in the
recording of Carl Tjader "Sauce Soul".
Fania release its movie "Salsa", and then the world Salsa
became famous, but since their first movie "Our Latin Thing"
all they played was Cuban music.
Louis Ramirez developed in the late 70s what it is today called Romantic
Salsa. This style was, in fact, a little different than the Fania (or
the Cuban), it was like a pop version of the Cuban music, softer. Since
He start making the mambo slower and using romantic lyrics for comercial
purposes.
Then, some people just call salsa the style of Ramires.Other people
call salsa everything they can dance to as casino, the son, the guaracha,
the rumba, since they can not tell the difference they call all of them
by salsa.
It is called salsa too the way those bands in New York started to sound,
it was Cuban music, but due to the fact that they had better recording
studios and the use of electric pianos the way they sound was different,
but the rhythm was the same. As Tito Puente did on the homage to Beny
More, and it is stated on his book like this " he was modernizing
a sound through new arrangements, but neither the rhythmic patterns
of the Cuban son nor the integrity of the choreography was compromised".
Most bands in Cuba had to record in radio studios and most of the time
in live -- Abdel
July
24, 2002 -- History of Salsa
Abdel
wrote:
"When
the name salsa came out in the 70s was to describe what latin people
was playing en New York, mostly Cuban music.They were playing mambo,
pachanga, charanga, cha cha cha, son, rumba. The term had been around
for a while, since the son "Echale Salsita" ( Put a little
sauce ) in the 30s in Cuba"
Not
true! When the name "Salsa" came out it was to describe the
new sound "genre" that hispanics (cuban americans, puerto
rican americans, dominican americans), blacks and jews, together were
creating in NYC. Just as the blacks would say, "Put some soul into
it", the hispanic community in NYC would say, "Pongale/Dame
Salsa." The song "Echale Salsita" has absolutely nothing
to do with music! First of all "Salsita" is not spelled the
same as SALSA have you noticed?
Second,
I recommend you buy Latinbeat Magazine's, May 2001 Volume 11, Number
4, with Victor Manuelle on the Cover of that issue. Read Frankie Figureroa's
article title "Echale Salsita (Gastronomically, not musically)"
on page 29! On that Venezuela radio comment I'll let Richie respond
to that!
Now
your going to tell me that Machito, The Great Master, was born in Cuba,
right?
Janemas
July
26, 2002
Machito, Frank Grillo, was born in Tampa on feb 16 in 1912 ( died on
Apr 15, 1984 in London, England)
He was born in Tampa, but raised in Cuba. He first met Bauza in 1926
and sang with Miguel Zaballe Sextet in the mid-20s advancing to the
teenage band Los Jovenes Rendencion in 1928. Machito spent much of the
1930s performing in Cuba, including with El sexteto Nacional at Havana`s
Montmartre Club. After Bauza (who had moved to the United State in 1930)
came home to marry Machito`s sister Estella, his stories about New York
inspired Machito to save money so he could emigrate too.
Machito left for United State in Octuber 1937 and a week later was singing
for Las Estrellas Habanera. In 1938 he made his recording debut (as
part of a chorus with El Conjunto Moderno), and he soon recorded with
Xavier Cugat. He also worked backing "cuban-born" singuer
Miguelito Valdes.
Did you Know that in the mid 30s in Puerto Rico everybody used to listen
on the radio to "Casino de La Playa" from Cuba, and then Noro
Morales started to copy their music. Nothing wrong, but just to let
you know how cuban music has been expanded.
About the word "salsa", PUT A LITTLE SAUSE ( echale salsita).
I don`t care too much, since the music was already there,long before
that it was coined as salsa. You can call it "salsa", "chocolate",
"manteca", "caldosa", it really don`t matter, the
music is the same. You don`t see the CLAVE leading mexican music nor
rock nor rap nor hip hop music. The CLAVE is the Key for cuban music,
and no matter where you from or where you are or how you music sound
or how slow or hard you play, the genre of music does not change.
Now you tell me, check the lyric list that Rose has and tell me how
old is the song " AVE MARIA LOLA " and where is it from ???
Did you Know that when Tito Puente did his homage to Beny More most
latin people in New York did`nt know who Beny More was????????????????
Now you can see how easy was to lie about the music Fania were making.
Telling people it was something new, but now people is realizing all
those tricks that they used to camoflage Cuban music with the name of
salsa. Of course, it was easier to sell a product as a new one and as
"made in U.S.A". (it was more difficult to sell that music
saying it was old Cuban music sounding a little different).
Even Cuban musicians can`t make the music sound the same when they are
not living in Cuba. -- Abdel
August
3, 2002 -- History of Cuban music.
I
just found on the net this passage I would like to share with all of
you.
<<
.... the fact that what is called salsa is nothing more than the way
cuban music is played outside of cuba. the nucleus of the rhythm section
on a 'salsa' band was also thought of and developed in cuba, or you
forgot where the conga o tumbadora was added to a septet to finish the
enlargement to a conjunto, who and where added the piano, in other words,
where was the bongo, the conga, the bass, the piano, the timbales and
the clave all brought together as a rhythm section. we know it was not
in new york, puerto rico, or africa, BY THE WAY NONE OF THE DRUMS THAT
CAME FROM AFRICA BROUGHT INSIDE THE SON, THE MAMBO, THE GUARACHA, THE
CHA CHA CHA, GET THE PICTURE. show me where the clave, if not as a concept,
then as an instrument, was not thought of and developed in cuba. I guess
you have not read up on the clave and where it comes from. I suggest
you read fernando ortiz, the authority on afrocuban music, then we'll
talk. right you 're thinking with misguided regionalism, you're trying
to rewrite history, you didn't learn your lesson when in your interview
with mangual jr. you tried to enlarge the contribution of what willie
colon and his crew, which included mangual, mangual's response was simply
that they copied what chappotin had done in cuba in the 40's and the
50's with his conjunto and instead of doing it with trumpets, they did
it here with trombones. the clave is the rhythmic pattern that governs
salsa, son if you prefer, mambo if you prefer that, or maybe guaracha
suits you more. the point is that in no other country did anybody think
of the clave as a concept or much less created as an instrument.
NOW IF POINTING ALL THESE THINGS OUT MAKES YOU FEEL THIS IS PURE REVISIONISM
YOU MUST READ THE MEANING OF REVISIONISM, AS A MATTER OF FACT I'LL PRINT
THE MERRIAN-WEBSTER COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY DEFINITION:
PART ONE SAYS: A MOVEMENT IN REVOLUTIONARY MARXIAN SOCIALISM FAVORING
AN EVOLUTIONARY RATHER THAN A REVOLUTIONARY SPIRIT.
PART TWO SAYS: ADVOCACY OF REVISION (AS OF A DOCTRINE OR POLICY OR IN
HISTORICAL ANALYSIS) IF I GAVE HISTORICAL FACTS ABOVE, WHO'S GUILTY
OF REVISIONISM? YOU ARE, YOU'RE TRYING TO REVISE HISTORY, YOU ARE TRYING
TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT NON-CUBANS PLAY CUBAN MUSIC WELL, NO ONE
IS DENYING THAT, BUT YOU'RE NOT STOPPING THERE, NOW IT'S NOT ENOUGH
TO SAY NON-CUBANS PLAY CUBAN MUSIC BUT THEY INVENTED A NEW RHYTHM WITH
A NEW CLAVE, (LISTEN TO HOW ABSURD THAT SOUNDS) CHECK OUT THE VERSION
OF 'QUE BONITO ES PUERTO RICO' BY WILLIE ROSARIO WHICH YOU WOULD NOT
HESITATE IN CALLING SALSA AND THEN CHECK OUT MACHITO'S VERSION DONE
IN 1950. TELL ME WHERE IS THE DIFFERENT CLAVE, TELL ME IF YOU DANCE
OR SOME ONE THAT DANCES, IF BOTH VERSIONS COULDN'T BE DANCED THE SAME
WAY BY ANY OF TODAY'S 'SALSEROS'. HERE IN THE AMERICAS WE ALL SPEAK
ENGLISH AND SPANISH DIFFERENTLY THAN IN ENGLAND AND SPAIN, NONE THE
LESS IT IS STILL ENGLISH AND IT IS STILL SPANISH, NO MATTER WHAT THE
ACCENT OR PRONUNCIATION, IT IS THE SAME WITH CUBAN MUSIC, NICHE FROM
COLOMBIA MAY PLAY IT ONE WAY, OSCAR D'LEON ANOTHER, GRAN COMBO YET ANOTHER,
BUT LISTEN TO THE CLAVE, LOOK AND LISTEN TO THE RHYTHM SECTION, LOOK
AT THE DANCERS AND TELL ME IF THEY ARE DANCING CUMBIA, JOROPO, PLENA.
NOOOOO..... THEY ARE DANCING MAMBO, GUARACHA, OR PLAIN OLD SON. YOU'RE
ASS WILL BE 200% CUBAN BY THE TIME YOU LEARN THE TRUTH. ASK YOU SELF
WHO NAMED ISMAEL RIVERA 'SONERO MAYOR', IT WAS NOT BENY MORE, NONE THE
LESS, WHY IS THAT CUBANCENTRISM NEEDED TO VALIDATE MAELO? IF SALSA IS
NOT CUBAN, WHY IS THE MYTH THAT BENY MORE NAMED MAELO 'EL SONERO MAYOR'
NEEDED? WHY IS THE VALIDATION OF A CUBAN NEEDED TO MAKE MAELO EL SONERO
MAYOR, BY THE WAY, WHY IS IT SONERO MAYOR AND NOT SALSERO MAYOR, COULD
IT BE THE SON AND SALSA ARE ONE AND THE SAME, YOU TELL ME, MR ....,
DO NOT FIRE YOURSELF YET, WE ALL CAN FIGHT IGNORANCE AND LEARN FROM
OUR MISTAKES. I'M SURE I CAN LEARN SOMETHING FROM YOU OTHER THAN MISGUIDED
REGIONALISM >> -- Gaby
August
6, 2002 -- History of Salsa
Abdel you put a smile to my face because we both, as well as a few million
people have something in common? Love for this music. We all did our
part to keep it alive. I was very interested in what you had to say
and received it with respect but at the same time I do not understand
why you refuse to acknowledge this genre. Norteño, Banda and
Grupo music are labeled different genres, yet they sound alike. Why
the fight for claim to this music when music belongs to everyone and
the world? Are the brits, australians, sweds and americans fighting
over rock and roll? No! They respect each others talent without the
BS that Salsa vs Son has. So now ECHALE SALSITA is not an important
part of this discussion. Hm? You can print all you want and I in turn
can do the same with Marty Scheller's book, but that won't be enough
for you. Once we were all one people, TAINOS, and we shared the same
language, food, goods, people, entertainment and MUSIC. But ethnocentrism
has entered our blood and that is something we must not pratice if we
are to continue to exist as the loving people we once were. Yes Machito
stated sometimes in interviews that he was born in Tampa, Fl. But in
an interview record for the SMITHSONIAN he was asked that very same
question, to which he responded, "which one? the real one?"
A very very personal person of mine just asked Graciela where Machito
was born and she said, "HAVANA". Some musicologist (LEGIT)say
that Machito must of said he was born in Tampa because the records could
never be tracked due to the fire at the tampa birth records building
during that era. So who do you believe? You swear it's Tampa and Graciela
says it's Havana? I don't like to beat a dead horse, especially to those
who only see things one way. My reason in responding to you was because
of the statement about how and why new yorkers said the word Salsa,
and I believe I gave my imput as a firsthand person. Cuba has beautiful
music, people, art, culture and so do the Puerto Ricans. Why argue over
something as petty as Salsa is Cuban when we all know that Pamieri,
Joe Cuba, Willie Rosario and others like them played Cuban music/son,
guajira, guaguanco, NY boogaloo as well and this new york sound/genre
which we called SALSA which was later used by the label companies to
group many genres together under one umbrella. -- Janemas
August
13, 2002 -- Abdel's Response to Janemas
It
does`nt matter where Machito was born, or what nationality he was. He
developed as a musician being in Cuba. My point is that salsa is not
a mixture. Music can develop, enhance but is not like food where you
just drop different ingredients to make a mixture. Salsa is the son,
the rumba, the guajira, the mambo played by musicians all around the
world with a lot of different styles and sounds.
Somebody said that in the 70`s Fania called Celia Cruz who was living
in Mexico at that time. They could have called some others singers such
as Libertad Lamarque or Maria Feliz, but they chose Celia Cruz because
they were making Cuban music and Celia is a Cuban music singer.
I understand that is easier for a salsa singers when asked where the
music he is playing came from to say that is a mixture, rather than
to give credit to another country that is not his. Even, for record
labels it is more convinient.
I don`t have anything against people playing Cuban music, on the contrary,
they make me feel proud. But it is not fair for the musicians that really
started this music to be forgotten.
Here there are some statements of people that have made Cuban music
and feel proud of the origin of this music, and they are the best:
Salsa : a different manner to name Cuban music. Mambo, cha cha cha,
son... all the Cuban rhythms joined together by only one name ".
(Celia Cruz).
Tito
Puente:
Salsa
means sauce, literally; it`s just a commercial term for Afro-Cuban dance
music which was used to promote the music. My problem is that we don't
play sauce, we play music, and latin music has different styles; cha-cha,
mambo, guaguanco, and son. Salsa doesn`t address the complexities and
the rich history of the music that we play. But it`s become accepted
now and it helped to get the music promoted. (Puente in Sanabria and
Socolov 1990, 23) (page 16/Tito Puente and the making of Latin music)
Mongo Santamaria:
Whatever is salsa here is 'musica tropical' in Mexico. It`s just another
label for basic Cuban music. It means 'saucy' or 'tropical', two elements
of Cuban life. (Santamaria in Smith 1977, 19-20). (page 16/Tito Puente
and the making of Latin music)
Tito Puente:
Tito also said to Loza : << There`s no salsa music. They just
put that word to the music that we were doing all the time, the mambo,
the cha-cha, the merengue: they called it 'salsa' Salsa is a condiment
of food. You eat salsa. You don`t listen to it. You don`t dance to it,
you know ? It became a popular word and all American people...'Tito
could you play me a salsa ?' So I said, 'Do you have a headache ? I`ll
give you an Alka-Seltzer.' You know, something like that. Now I`ve joined
them. I`m not going to fight it anymore, you know ? The mambo, call
it whatever you want ! You know, 'Could you play me a salsa tango ?'
They don`t know what they`re talking about. Salsa is everything. Salsa
is actually the condiment that you put on food. Salsa tomate, tomato
sauce, spaghetty sauce. The mexicans have been using the word salsa
for centuries. Mexican salsa all the time, the hot salsa, you know,
for tamales. So they gave it to the music, you know to give it heat.
It makes it exciting. It`s easy for everybody to say. You know even
in my concerts I always tell everybody, 'Now you know, we`re gonna play
for you salsa!''OHHH! It`s the same mambo I`ve been playing for forty
years >>. (page 41-42-Tito Puente and the making of Latin music)
Interview to Larry Harlow (www.planetsalsa.com)
Q:
Salsa or Mambo...which came first?
Harlow:
Mambo. the music is exactly the same..Salsa is just a name.
August
13, 2002 -- Abdel's Response to Janemas.
Janemas,
I come back to you since you look a very nice person, even when I disagree
with you on some points.
You said : << Why the fight for claim to this music when music
belongs to everyone and the world? Are the brits, australians, sweds
and americans fighting over rock and roll? No! They respect each others
talent without the BS that Salsa vs Son has. So now ECHALE SALSITA is
not an important part of this discussion. Hm? >>
I notice that the New York style is different from the Cuban. Most of
the time the music coming out of New York is more comercial and romantic,
I have no problem calling that style as salsa. But, They, in New York,
not only play that style, they also play the old son, guarachas, rumbas,
and mambos and call them salsa as well.
Then you find people like Willie Colon saying that "salsa is not
Cuban music".
About "ECHALE SALSITA", I tell you that SALSITA means SALSA.
If you don`t speak spanish, ask. Of course, in every Latin country there
are different ways to name things, and slangs. In Cuba people use to
say SALSITA, in Mexico they call SALSA to the same thing. I bet you,
that without this song people had never thought about that name, it
inspired people since this song was very well known around the world;
tell me, Doesn`t mean the same as The Gran Combo sing "QUE LE PONGAN
SALSA" and "ECHALE SALSITA ?????"
Of
course, obviously they are talking about the same food.
August
17, 2002 (anonymous feedback)
Ay Abdel you are an intelligent person! Why can't you just listen
to something so simple as what I said? You quoted me but you didn't
respond to the quote. You went in another direction. So let me quote
you.
"I
notice that the New York style is different from the Cuban. Most of
the time the music coming out of New York is more comercial and romantic,
I have no problem calling that style as salsa. But, They, in New York,
not only play that style, they also play the old son, guarachas, rumbas,
and mambos and call them salsa as well. Then you find people like
Willie Colon saying that "salsa is not Cuban music"."
So you
do acknowledge we have a style in addition to the son, guaguanco,
etc.! So why are we disagreeing? lol! Are you saying that only Cubans
can play THOSE styles? You contradict yourself here. If you acknowledge
that NY has it's own style then you should understand that Willie
Colon is talking about that NY style, yes? Lots of Willie's music
has nothing to do with son.
Dear
it's only different when they record or play or jam a New York Sound/style
of music which most, not all, is a genre of the beautiful SON! Of
course they play Son, Guaguanco (my favorite), Guajira's and other
Cuban styles of music, but in addition to that, they do their NY Latin
Style genre (we call Salsa) on other tracks as well. I personally
know many famous musicians who call it what it is! Unfortunately the
term SALSA was used to label all the music under one umbrella (thus
giving it an additional definition) for promotional or sales reasons
to avoid the long explanations/confusions to the unknowledgeble saleman/buyer
at the other end of the latin music record business. Thus everyone
is confused an going nuts! Back in the 70's when I was at the Cheetah,
Corso, Hipocampo etc. it was normal for us to yell at the musicians
on stage, "Play a Guaguanco! Play a Guajira. I wanna hear a Cha
Cha Cha!" We the Puerto Ricans knew the difference and still
do. But when it was Barretto, Palmieri, Willie Colon or Joe Cuba on
stage playing something different other then the styles mentioned
just previously, we yelled, "Dame otra SALSA" not "Dame
otra SALSITA!" The Latter sounds weird right? lol! It is not
our fault that record companies are labeling all the genres SALSA.
SALSA, I'll repeat myself once again, was a term WE yelled to musicians
on stage to get hot! The word was used with the same definition and
emotion as the blacks did when they used the term SOUL!
Now commercial and salsa romantica is garbage. That's just poor arranging
and songwriting. (my opinion)!
"In
Cuba people use to say SALSITA"
That's
what you say Abdel, but so far the only source of arguement the anti
ricans have is the ECHALE SALSITA tune theory! And LATIN BEAT already
dismissed that one. Common sense and logic rules.
"About
"ECHALE SALSITA", I tell you that SALSITA means SALSA."
Yes it
does, in a way; But really, SALSITA = LITTLE SAUCE, but in THAT song
it ONLY REFERS to liquid! Nothing is mentioned about the word in reference
to JAMMING, MUSIC, STYLE OF MUSIC. I read the lyrics!
"In
Cuba people use to say SALSITA, in Mexico they call SALSA to the same
thing." To food right?
"I
bet you, that without this song people had never thought about that
name, it inspired people since this song was very well known around
the world; tell me, Doesn`t mean the same as The Gran Combo sing "QUE
LE PONGAN SALSA" and "ECHALE SALSITA ?????"
Both
songs are different! One is about food. El Gran Combo's tune has no
point in this discussion because their song has nothing to do with
the origins of the term SALSA. One IMPORTANT note! SALSA is a synonymous
WORD! See The American Heritage College Dictionary.
So it
all boils down to this: It's what your trying to say with a word at
the time that you say it, WHAT COUNTS!
Imagine
if the Haitians that went to Cuba in the late 1700's with the Danzon
were to rant and rave about how the Cubans took it and stole it! I
don't see it that way because it evolved into it's own genre just
like (I hate saying this word now) SALSA (NY SOUND).
CHARANGA
IS OF FRENCH DANZON ORIGIN JUST LIKE SALSA IS OF CUBAN SON ORIGIN,
YET, CHARANGA IS AS MUCH CUBAN AS SALSA IS A NEW YORK SOUND!
Yes it
is a shame as well as a disservice to true latin music lovers when
they call a MODERN SON OR GUAGUANCO a SALSA! Same when they call a
Guajira a Cha Cha Cha, don't you think?
Con Mucho
Amor!
August
18, 2002 -- Salsa History
"It
doesn't matter where Machito was born, or what nationality he was. He
developed as a musician being in Cuba."
Your
right it doesn't!
"My
point is that salsa is not a mixture. Music can develop, enhance but
is not like food where you just drop different ingredients to make a
mixture. Salsa is the son, the rumba, the guajira, the mambo played
by musicians all around the world with a lot of different styles and
sounds."
It's
a shame to call the beautiful SON una SALSA! Same goes for the Guaguanco,
guarija (which some confuse it with a CHA CHA CHA). Salsa in our minds
is what the NY sound is.
"Somebody said that in the 70`s Fania called Celia Cruz who was
living in Mexico at that time. They could have called some others singers
such as Libertad Lamarque or Maria Feliz, but they chose Celia Cruz
because they were making Cuban music and Celia is a Cuban music singer."
Sorry
but Celia was not their first choice! It was Canela of Colombia who
Pacheco wanted but her husband did not agree to let her go! By the way,
my favorite singer is not a salsera but a bolero singer, Blanca Rosa
Gil! In addition to Cuban stlyes of music they also played Salsa! I
was at the Cheetah!
"I
don`t have anything against people playing Cuban music, on the contrary,
they make me feel proud. But it is not fair for the musicians that really
started this music to be forgotten."
Who
says they are forgotten? If if weren't for the Puerto Ricans they might
have been! They, the Ricans, have not only document these facts but
have let those names be known from generation to generation! We more
than the Cubans loved La Lupe! Chocolate and others! We had one thing
in common, we were NUYORQUINOS, ALL ONE PEOPLE! Just go to latinfame.com
and check out last year's 2001 video of the awards ceremony. Tell me
what other group gives honors to every one! OHHH! And listen to Graciela
sing. We brought tears to her eyes after her peformance. You know what
she said? "We wouldn't be here or made it if it weren't for the
Blacks, Italians and Puerto Ricans. You made us! I love you!" Maybe
you can catch me sitting between Harlow and Richie! Also, it's not fair
to not give credit to the innovators of the NY Sound and they include
many ethnic groups, some of the greats being jewish. You are still mixing
Salsa History with Son History!
"Here
there are some statements of people that have made Cuban music and feel
proud of the origin of this music, and they are the best:"
I
know all about the statements and it doesn't make it GOD'S TRUTH! TITO
PUENTE played Cuban Music in addition to Jazz and others genres, but
his heart was with El Mambo even thought to me he played TOO FAST for
my taste. He did not play SALSA. Remember you yourself said NY has it's
own sound and Puente DID NOT PLAY IT! Later he did admit that Salsa
does exits, not saying here that it was a genre he played.
"Salsa
: a different manner to name Cuban music. Mambo, cha cha cha, son...
all the Cuban rhythms joined together by only one name ". (Celia
Cruz)."
That
is right! The NY Style is not a part of that list nor is she referring
to it! You gotta remember when I talk about Salsa, I am not referring
to beautiful Cuban Music aka Son, Guajira, Guaguanco, Cha Cha Cha, etc.
I am ONLY talking about that genre that came out of El Son and developed
in NYC that we call Salsa. Unfortunately that word is used today to
identify all Latin Music including it's original genre, The NY Sound.
I too have a problem with it. So why don't we all call up SONY and tell
them instead of us arguing? Us in general as in people. Lately I have
noticed cd mailings listing Salsa separate from Son and Charangas. Someone
has seen the light!
"Interview
to Larry Harlow (www.planetsalsa.com)
Q:
Salsa or Mambo...which came first?
Harlow:
Mambo. the music is exactly the same..Salsa is just a name."
My
dear Larry. I've known him for 30 years! Larry played/s CUBAN STYLE
MUSIC! Did you hear what he said on Bravo's "The Palladium, when
Mambo was King"?
Janemas
August
22, 2002 -- Let me quote you again, to make it easier.
<<<So you do acknowledge we have a style in addition to the
son, guaguanco, etc.! So why are we disagreeing? lol! Are you saying
that only Cubans can play THOSE styles? You contradict yourself here.
If you acknowledge that NY has it's own style then you should understand
that Willie Colon is talking about that NY style, yes? Lots of Willie's
music has nothing to do with son.>>>
Willie Colon is not talking only about the New York style, because this
one started to develope in the late 70s. He is talking about the music
Fania was making in the early 70s, which was not yet the New York style,
it was the old Cuban style with just some new sounds such as electronic
devices.
<<
Unfortunately the term SALSA was used to label all the music under one
umbrella (thus giving it an additional definition) for promotional or
sales reasons to avoid the long explanations/confusions to the unknowledgeble
saleman/buyer at the other end of the latin music record business. Thus
everyone is confused an going nuts!>>
Then, because of this you can not explain salsa as a New York style
only, but as the genres of Cuban music being played by musicians around
the world, and you can not expect everybody to sound the same.
<< so far the only source of arguement the anti ricans have is
the ECHALE SALSITA tune theory! And LATIN BEAT already dismissed that
one.>>
Have you seen the latest edition of Latin Beat Magazine ??????? There
is Enrrique Iglesias. The magazine has commercial purposes and I bet
you they don`t wanna make the puertoricans mad about them.
<<! SALSA is a synonymous WORD! See The American Heritage College
Dictionary. >>
That`s right, that is exactly waht I said: Salsa and Salsita are synonymous,
salsita is the "diminutive form" of salsa.
<<Imagine
if the Haitians that went to Cuba in the late 1700's with the Danzon
were to rant and rave about how the Cubans took it and stole it!CHARANGA
IS OF FRENCH DANZON ORIGIN JUST LIKE SALSA IS OF CUBAN SON ORIGIN, YET,
CHARANGA IS AS MUCH CUBAN AS SALSA IS A NEW YORK SOUND>>
You`re just confusing people, again.
The danzon was the creation of a Cuban musician, from Matanzas, Miguel
Failde. The first danzsn is credited to be "Las Alturas de Simpson"
written by him. -- Abdel
August
26, 2002 -- History of Salsa
Ay ay ay! Que pena me da tu caso... Obviously you don't understand what
synonomous means. That is your interpretation! Synonomous means one
word "ONLY ONE" having different meanings, not two words spelled
differently having the same meaning. Still all those with common sense
KNOW the history behind THAT "Salsita" word used in that song.
Once again, nothing to do with music, just FOOD! How do you know what
Willie Colon meant? Have you talked to him? It's funny how a certain
group say that this person meant that without any proof! This Saturday
I heard some great music on a public radio station out of Temple University.
I listened to Latin Music and it was wonderful. Whether it was played
by Cubans or Ricans, or any other latin or non latin country, it didn't
matter. What mattered was that these guys played great music rarely
heard on major radio stations. You once said, "I'm proud that they
play MY music" or somewhere along those lines. I don't think, but
know that you are wrong, simply because it is not your music. It's is
THEIR music, their recordings (masters), their creative genius (arrangements)
and their money that produced it, not you or I. It is true, some people
simply cannot let it go! Their are more important things in this world
than arguing about, "What came first? The Chicken or the egg."
Even now I'd still like to dance with you.....that is if you a man!
Adios primo -- Janemas
November
10, 2002 -- Origins of Salsa Dance
Your article is excellent. How about the dance of salsa? How did
it originate? Who came up with closed couples mirroring each other back
and forth etc.? And, how was it that this dance was evolving both in
Cuba and Puerto Rico, when they're separate islands? Did it evolve in
one island and get transferred to the other? What is the main dance
difference between Cuban style salsa and Puerto Rican style? thank you,
Nadia
March
8, 2003 -- The History of Salsa
I was born in San Juan's Santurce section of Puerto Rico, I Will Point
out that my blood is not really Puerto Rican since my parents were
Irish immigrants, but I will just explain the truth to ignorant people
such as Abdel.
There hasn't been one thing that Anti-Puerto Ricans have been able
to state without having solid evidence to back it up. If any person
would demonstrate me the evidence that Salsa is Cuban I'm all ears
until then it's Puerto Rican.
Cuban Music Radio transmissions were around the world, not just Puerto
Rico Abdel and Casino de Playa's music sounded primitive, caveman
like, in fact light years away from Noro Morales' music. De LA Playa's
music was slow, really like Cuban music in it's purest form , while
Morale's was up-tempo. Morales may have been inspired, and there's
no evidence to prove it since he never stated it, but that doesn't
mean that he copied them, copying is Colombia's Alquimia which sounds
like La Sonora Matancera, that's copying. Morales also played music
in the San Juan, Puerto Rico tradition where salsa really began during
the 1940's (www.musicadepuertorico).
Janemas at times you make sense and at others you don't, But I agree
about Echale Salsita, that has to be the most idiotic myth I have
ever heard. Ignacio Pineiro was asked what inspired him to write Echale
Salsita. Pineiro stated that he was talking about food, since the
night before he wrote it he went out with his girlfriend and the food
didn't taste good, he was talking about food not a rhythm. Noro should
be regarded as one of the founding fathers of salsa, his song "Ponce"
from the album "Brodcast and Transcriptions" has been the
closest I've heard to Salsa (AND IT WAS RECORDED LIVE THROUGH RADIO
GABY) , more than any Cuban artist ever got to even CASINO DE LA PLAYA,
Abdel. "OR YOU FORGET THE RHYTHM THAN BROUGHT TOGETHER THE CONGA,
BONGOS, AND TIMBALES".
Gaby If Your Such an Afro-Cuban music Africionada, learn, study about
it like yours truly. Arsenio Rodriguez, the Afro-Cuban who innovated
CUBAN MUSIC was the one who added the Piano, Conga (tumbadora), and
the second and third trumpets to a typical cuban Sexteto or Septeto
creating the Cuban Conjunto. O yes we're missing something right?
YES GABY WE'RE MISSING THE TIMBALES, WHO UNTIL NUYORICAN TITO PUENTE,
TIMBALES WERE NEVER USED IN AFRO-CUBAN MUSIC. PUENTE INTRODUCED THE
TIMBALES TO ALL AFRO-CUBAN MUSIC FROM GUAGUANCO TO MAMBO, YOU NAME
IT. TYPICAL CUBAN ORCHESTRAS AND MOST CUBAN ORCHESTRAS UNTIL TODAY
DO NOT USE TIMBALES FOR AFRO-CUBAN MUSIC.
The clave is not Cuban, it is based on the West African cowbell paterns,
which without a doubt are pure African. To my anynomous friend, yes
I feel the same way you as an expert musicologist I have to say the
same as you. How would Cubans feel if the HAITIANS PROSTESTED TO CLAIM
BACK THE DANZON, WHICH WAS ORIGINALLY CREATED BY THE FRENCH. How would
the Cubans feel if the AFRO-HAITIANS WANTED TO CLAIM BACK THE "CUBAN"
MAMBO WHICH IS BASED ON AFRO-HAITIAN VOODOO RITUALS, HOW WOULD CUBANS
FEEL IF THE DOMINICANS WANTED TO CLAIM BACK THE "CUBAN"
SON. DING DONG did I Say "Cuban" Son? I love to say "Cuban"
Son in quotes, because the Son, the national indenitifier of Cuban
culture is in fact not Cuban. Evidence of this is avaiable on the
album "Putumayo World Music: The Music of the Dominican Republic".
The album features the true son, which originated in Santiago de los
Caballeros, Dominican Republic. Santiago is another Keyword here.
Let's transport ourselves to Santiago de Cuba, the Cuban Mafia headquartes
and distortioner of the truth capital of the world.
The Mambo and the Danzon orinally Haitian musical rhythms arrived
in Cuba through Afro-Haitian immigrants. The Mambo was originally
a dance in Voodoo rituals and the Danzon was up-class music in Haiti
by the French. Through the years Cubans loved this music so much,
and are such greedy people that, they decided to call it Cuban music,
this being pre 1840's, there's obviously no computers,etc., no way
to get the information around the world that's how Cubans distorted
the truth, but in REALITY the music should properly and rightfully
be called HAITIAN MAMBO and HAITIAN DANZON.
In regards to son, it pretty much has the same story because the immigrants
from the Dominican Republic entered Cuba through Haiti. Cubans are
very good at the art of deceiving people, Cubans are kind of like
Osama Bin Laden's or Saddam Hussein's who attempt decieve the world.
They attempt to show the world that they are "THE MOST DANCEBLE,
HAPPY, CREATIVE, AND ORIGINAL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD" which is a
complete lie. Since Cubans are so good at deceiving, it would be obvious
if all of Cuban music originated in Oriente (Santiago) were usually
Rich Guajiros lived and played music in a more Spanish-Like way. They
created the story that mambo was created in Havana by Israel "Lopez"
Cachao, now see the Haitian influences and musical influence to Haiti.
Cachao states that he "created" the mambo by "accident",
while composing a "Cuban" (Haitian) Danzon. See the connection
to Haiti, which means that those two musical rhythms are in fact Haitian.
The Dominican Son underwent a few changes under the direction of Rich
White Cuban Guajiros, they added the Cuban Tres guitar while Afro-Cuban
Guajiros added the Bongo's, but at the core of the "Cuban"
Son lies the DOMINICAN SON. Oh, Yeah by the way the Bolero is Puerto
Rican, All of you Anti-Puerto Ricans will say, haha first they are
trying to say that Salsa is Puerto Rican (Which it is like it or not),
then Bolero, pretty soon they're gonna' be claiming the Afro-Cuban
Guaguanco. Wrong much of what is happening right now is Deja Vu, it
happened during the 1800's when Andalucian Spaniards created the Bolero,
they travelled to Puerto Rico and took with them.
During the 1860's, many of those Spaniards fled Puerto Rico to Cuba
because the Spanish government was after them for supporting "El
Grito de Lares". Cubans changed a it bit, just like the Son to
make it seem a Cuban creation, which indeed was Spanish and got to
Cuba from Puerto Rico in the first place. Machito, Cuban or Cuban-American?
It seems to me that Machito was a man who was hiding somehting, which
doesn't point out something very positive about him or Cuba. Machito
had indeed claimed in many interviews that he was born in Tampa, Fl
and yet in other interviews he had claimed that he was born in Havana,Cuba
and at the same time Graciela says he was born in Havana,Cuba. Then
you got biographies of Machito which state he was born Frank Grillo
and others Francisco Grillo. Some biographies even state that he was
born in Havana,Cuba but learned to play music in Tampa, while others
contradict this and state that he learned to play music in Havana.
What was Machito hiding is my question? Why didn't he ever, state
his real place of birth? Mr. Grillo must have been hiding something
that he never wanted people to find out. "Cubans couldn't compete
with Nuyoricuans/Puerto Ricans because they didn't have access to
electric pianos and fancy recording studios as most were based in
Cuba and made many live recordings." All false, just because
Beny More was based and recorded in Cuba all of his life dosen't mean
all Cubans did.
What about Perez Prado? He wasn't based in the United States, but
did in fact had access to electric pianos, etc. In particular because
he in fact, recorded in fancy studios, to be percise RCA Mexico. Arsenio
Rodriguez was based in New York and so was Chano Pozo so what is this
bull and pathetic excuse about not being able to compete? Ah, yes
did I forget Sonora Mantancera, among others, which refused to change
their sound even after they had moved from Cuba to New York, even
though they recorded in fancy studios and had access to electric pianos,etc.
What about the Guaracha? Guarachas are originally Spanish, they arrived
in Cuba, but was originally a Spanish creation. In Cuba they africanized
it, and it came to be a guaracha like the ones Celia Cruz played with
La Sonora Matancera. The Guaracha became quite popular in Puerto Rico,
BUT YOU NEVER HEAR PUERTO RICANS SAYING THAT GUARACHAS ARE PUERTO
RICAN JUST LIKE CUBANS SAY THAT THE DANZON IS CUBAN OR SON CUBAN.
ABDUL YOU'RE ADMITTING THAT CHARANGA IS NOT CUBAN? VERY WELL THEN
THERE YOU HAVE IT ANOTHER RHYTHM WHICH IS NOT CUBAN. AND YES CUBAN
OWE THEIR LIFES TO PUERTO RICANS, JUST AS JANEMAS SAYS. Like Graciela
said Cubans wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for Puerto Ricans.
Cubans are the most greedy people in the world and are never happy
and consequently try to have everybody else live an un-happy life
just like them. This is yet another proven-fact. Even though the mambo
is an Afro-Haitian dance (not Afro-Cuban) there is a big dispute,
particularly in Mexico (which favors Perez Prado) between Perez Prado
and Cachao (Neither created it and you know why).
Then comes the Cha Cha Cha, but is it Cha Cha Cha or Cha Cha (Double
Mambo), Some say it was created by Enrique Jorrin y Orquesta America
and others say by Cuban artists in New York, what's the truth? Tito
Puente should never have given his opinion about this because he was
not a Salsero like Janemas said. Puente played Afro-Cuban music and
Jazz not Salsa. The only thing I'll agree with Cubans is the part
the Machito said, "These young people don't play it right."
That is very true Puente was in fact a very un-talented person. Instead
of making a big contribution to Afro-Cuban music he mutated it, his
Mambos were really un-tasteful and lacked flavor. Puente didn't even
know how to play Mambos, just listen to "Baila Como Es"
that just sounds like some other type of music compared to Xavier
Cugat's "Mambo Mania". Celia Cruz "La Reina de La Salsa",
And may I ask who gave her that name? It was Tito Puente, not Cubans.
"Salsa is just a term for all Cuban rhythms, the Guaguanco, The
Cha Cha Cha, the Son, the Guaracha" - Celia Cruz. How hypocrit,
for a woman who called Salsa the song "Usted Abuso" which
was Salsa based on Afro-Brazilian Rhytms. "Why is Maelo always
caleld "El Sonero Mayor"., why not "El Salsero Mayor"
- Gaby.
First off Salsa existed but was not called Salsa during the times
this occured, remember Beny More died in 1962 because of his severe
drinking problem. Second, Cubans control the Latin Musical world and
have made popular the term Sonero for ALL SALSA artists, a term which
was originally used for players of the "Cuban" Son, but
that know means Salsero. Cubans are such greedy people and glutons
that they want to plant the Cuban flag on everything that is Latino.
This all started after 1959 when many fled to Miami,FL. During the
same time, the first Latin TV stations were created. SBS (Spanish
Broadcasting System) was the first television company in the United
States's mainland. Created by hard working Mexican-Americans and Mexican
immigrants and was based in San Antonio, Texas. The other being Telemundo
which was created by Hard Working Puerto Ricans and was based in San
Juan, Puerto Rico.
During the late 1970's Mafia Cubans purchased both and re-located
them to Hialeah,FL (a city made up of over 98% Cubans). This gives
you an idea of the kind of people Cubans are. How come Cubans have
stoled our Puerto Rican tunes millions of times and the world has
let them? Abdul why don't make some research you moron, and take time
to see the many songs Cubans have called Cuban even though they are
old Puerto Rican tunes. From Piel Canela (Bobby Capo), El Cumbanchero
(Rafael Hernandez), Cachita (Rafael Hernandez), Amor Perdido (Pedro
Flores), Obsesion (Pedro Flores), Nuestro Juramento (Benito de Jesus)
to Olvidame (Roberto Cole).
"Cubans are VERY ORIGINAL PEOPLE and Owe very little to Puerto
Rico" Total misinformation and lie. Cubans owe very much to Puerto
Rico. Not Only because like Janemas said, Puerto Ricans have documented
Cuban music many times we have also influenced them. Guajiras can
some times be confused with cha cha cha's like Janemas said, but those
are "Guajiras de Salon" created by Guillermo Portabales.
Let's go into the real Guajiro rhythms of Cuba. Celina Gonzalez is
one of the biggest exponents of Cuban Guajira music. She dedicated
a song to Puerto Rico called "Canto A Borinquen" which sounds
a bit Rican. "Yo Soy El Punto Cubano" sounds a bit Rican
also. But what about "Alborada Guajira" also performed by
Albita. A Le Lo Lay is Sung and that is anything but Guajiro. A Le
Lo Lay is 100% Puerto Rican, it was sung Puerto Rican Jibaros (equivalent
to Cuban Guajiros/Hillbillies/Rural Workers) while they were working.
Many other songs that Celina sings, most of which she wrote, have
the Le Lo Lay in them. Guillermo Portabales another performer of Guajiro
Music, has perfored the Jibaro Seis Chorreao, sung Le Lo Lays, and
Played music in the Puerto Rican Jibaro traditions. The same applies
to Trio Matamoros and Los Guaracheros de Oriente who played the song
"Oiga Mi Le Lo Lay".
"During the late 1970's Fania coined the term Salsa for commercial
purposes", Johnny Pachecho in an interview also says that "HE"
coined the term salsa. "It's Cuban music originally". Pacheco
didn't know jack about Salsa. One of the most overshadowed pioneers
and founding fathers of Salsa are Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz. To
say Salsa is to say Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz. The founding steps
of Salsa had already been made by Noro Morales who played the New
York Mambo, a variant of the "Cuban" (Haitian) Mambo created
by Puerto Ricans. Cesar Concepcion succesfully fused the Puerto Rican
Plena with the New York Mambo, and Cortijo y Su Combo innovated the
Bomba y Plena and gave it an orchestra sound, setting the basic steps
for Salsa. Richie & Bobby did the ultimate. They took the Puerto
Rican Bomba and Plena (the versions that had already been given the
orchestra sound), the New York Mambo, the Afro-Cuban Guaguanco, the
Cuban Pachanga, and the Cuban Cha Cha Cha and fused it together, WALLA'
Salsa is born. Cruz & Ray are beloved amongst many Venezuelans
because they dedicated many songs to Venezuela, in particular because
Richie had a DJ friend in Venezuela. Even the Old Afro-Cuban music
that Ray & Cruz played sounded light years and much better than
the one Cubans played, just listen to "Here Comes Richie Ray",
a Guaguanco which sounds just beautiful. This is the very truth as
to how Salsa came to be what it is today, as i've said the basic steps
were made by Coritjo, Concepcion, & Morales, the next step was
to finish it and Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz finsished it by creating
Salsa.
In Venezuela, Richie's friend told hime "I've never heard such
catchy music in my life before" "It's a new rhythm right?",
"So what is it called?" Richie smiled and said it's ketchup,
it's Salsa. From that day on Salsa was an official rhythm, but it
would take long for Cubans to spread a rumor which later became a
myth that it evolved from the "Cuban"(Dominican) Son. One
of the mistakes that Cubans hoped would occur, and that in fact did
occur was that a traditional Cuban song such as "Echale Salsita"
would be called Salsa to protest about the subject. Richie's Venezuelan
friend did in fact commit that mistake and called old "Cuban"
(Dominican) Sones Salsa and the controversey began. "Puerto Ricans
have had, throughout their history, a problem with indentity, and
this was particularly caused by the United States' presence in Puerto
Rico." Totally false, although the United States presence did
affect Puerto Rico, it was easy for Puerto Ricans to move back and
forth, to and from New York.
After Ricans arrived in New York many Cubans began arriving and younger
Ricans caught on "Cuban" music. What is that mean?, "Puerto
Ricans are still ashamed of their culture and are not proud of their
music like Cubans are!" Their music? Let me get something straight,
much of the Cuban music that came to be has foreign influence, either
from France or Haiti or the Dominican Republic and Even Puerto Rico.
If Cubans are so proud of their music, how come, very little artists
perform traditional Guajiro music? Everybodby has their weak spot
and just remember that.
How Could anybody say that Puerto Ricans are ashamed of their music.
Puerto Ricans are the most proud people of their music in the world.
Nobody could play to beat of Any Puerto Rican rhyhtm including Salsa,
not even Cubans, and sounded out with a spoon or a set of car keys
or whatever they find to create a beautiful rhythmic sound. In many
places in Puerto Rico, specially during festivals you'll see Pleneros
around. When christmas time comes all of Puerto Rico dances to the
beat of Aguinaldos and other Jibaro Music. This is one of the main
problems that occurs today, many people know very little or nothing
about Puerto Rican folk music, and the musics' contribution to Salsa
and Latin Pop music in General.
To all of you Moronic Anti-Ricans like Abdul, I suggest you take trip
to Loiza Aldea, Puerto Rico. The center of African culture in the
Western Hemisphere and take some classes on Afro-Puerto Rican Drumming
to observe how much Afro-Puerto Rican Drumming influenced Salsa. Wow!,
Big deal "Cubans have been able to create different, new rhythms
despite the embargo like Mozambique, Songo, Pilon, and Timba".
SO WHAT! Nuyoricans created the Boogaloo, while Richie Ray & Bobby
Cruz created the Jala-Jala, Recently William Cepeda created Afro-Puerto
Rican Jazz, and Puerto Rico's newest creation the Reggeaton is beloved
by Rican Teens.
In regards to Timba, Timba is just a cheap copy of Cortijo's Legendary
"Time Machine" Album, Because 99.999999999999% Percent of
all Timbas are arranged the way songs were arranged in Cortijo's "Time
Machine". To conclude what about Cubans like Issac Delgado Who
states that he plays different music. Delgado states "I play
different music I take PUERTO RICAN SALSA, and mix it with CUBAN SONGO".
SALSA IS PUERTO RICAN AND WILL ALWAYS BE PUERTO RICAN, BORICUA HASTA
LA MUERTE. VIVA PUERTO RICO.
March
16, 2003 -- The History of Salsa
Your
response was excellent! I was thrilled to read it. I must of not
made sense to you if the post was after 2am! But really, I do have
my views on the New York Sound and it's distinction from the Son,
which I always believed came from Hispañola. You hit it right
on the CLAVE! AFRICAN! Maelo was not called a Salsero per say because
he was not only a singer, but the best improviser who could Sonear
on the spot! And that is a SONERO, while a Salsero can be a non-singer
like a musican/dancer. Don't you agree?
"I
was born in San Juan's Santurce section of Puerto Rico, I Will Point
out that my blood is not really Puerto Rican since my parents were
Irish immigrants,"
On
the quote above, I'll provide a link for you to view my ideas on
this subject. Puerto Rican is a nationality with many bloodlines
and ethnic groups. My great grandmother was from Ireland, yet her
immediate family came to identify being Puerto Ricans because they
lived, and had their children there. Most Irish Spainish are Gallegos.
My
post starts 2nd to last on this thread page: page.http://puertorico.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=3885&pagenumber=2
April
8, 2003 -- history of salsa
Did
you really expect the music that was taking a new life of its
own from the 60's& 70's, being played by:
-Rafael
Cortijo y su Combo con Ismael Rivera
-Willie Colon/Hector Lavoe
-Ray Barretto
-Eddie Palmieri
-Charlie Palmieri
-Tommy Olivencia
-Willie Rosario
-Mario Ortiz
-Bobby Valentin
-Roberto Rhoena y su Apollo sound
-Larry Harlow
-El Gran Combo
-Conjunto Libre
-Tipica '73
-Ralphy Leavitt Y La Selecta
-Johnny Pacheco Y su Tumbao
-The Fania All-Stars
-La Sonora Poncena
-Los Hermanos Lebron / Lebron brothers
-Joe Cuba(he is Boricua)y su Sexteto
-Angel Canales
-Ismael Miranda
-Cheo Feliciano
-Pete El Conde Rodriguez
-Richie Ray Y Bobby Cruz
-Louie Ramirez
-Luis Perico Ortiz
-Marvin Santiago
-Ruben Blades
-Conjunto Clasico
-Bobby Rodriguez Y la Compania
If you notice I tried to keep it just 1960's & 70's era.
Now do you think that there music should be called Cuban music???
I'll ask you another question. Do you think it's fair to simply
call there music Cuban music??? There is not one Cuban mentioned
there. Don't you see to just call this music Cuban, is to not
recognize the Puert Ricans powerful contributions.The Pure fact
is that the bands/orquestras that i mentioned are the ones that
made "Salsa" what it is today, and that is a pure fact!!!!!!
You don't have to be a scientist to realize that.
-Salsa por la manana, Salsa por el medio dia, Salsa por la tarde,
Salsa por la noche, y Salsa hasta la madruga!!!
El
Lapiz "Salsero De Verdad"!!!
April
12, 2003 -- About the Boogaloo ( forum of History
of Salsa )
Pury I recall the name of the song from the 50`s played by Julio
Gutierres where the singer mentioned the timbal player, its
name is "Me voy para vigo". I also wanna say that
the Boogaloo is just the son montuno, to realize that people
just need to listen to Benny More in "Que Bueno Baila Usted"
(from the 50`s) and compare that music to the boogaloo "Micalea"
by Peter Rodriguez, you will see that the music and the rhythm
is the same. -- Karioca
April
14, 2003 -- History of Salsa (sauce MMMMMMM!!!)
PERDONAAAAA SAAAAAAAYYYY!!! The boogalu comes from where i
come NYC, New York. Come to New York & talk that CACAAA!!!
--EL LAPIZ SALSERO DE VERDAD!!
April
15, 2003 -- History of salsa.
Lapiz, caca is what your grandmother does in the toilet.
The boogaloo is just the son montuno, to realize that nobody
need to go to New York city, just need to listen to the
music.
I
just saw the movie "IMPERE", about some young
puertorricans living in New York, and it is really shameful
to see how all latin music was played in the film was cuban
music (boleros, guaguanco, etc). The didn`t have the proud
of showing some puertorrican music, such as plena or bomba
-- Karioca
April
16, 2003 -- The History of Salsa (response
to Karioca)
Karioca, at least my grandmother realeases it (the caca)
in the toilet,while your grandmother eats it!!! Caca is
what you eat - "Come Mierda", since you talk
it so much!!! By the way my grand mother has passed(RIP).
show some class,lets leave them out of this.
About the music. Boricuas has so many
types of music that to include it in one simple tape would
be a little far fetched especially if it's on Salsa. So
if we were going to do a video on salsa itself, on that
music alone we have a huge history. La Bomba in itself
has it's Rich & unique style. LA Plena well if you
ever wondered why Puerto Rico produces so many Soneros
it is because of La Plena. To sing Plena you must be a
sonero & have the gift of improvisation. Now the Seis
Chorreao(Jibaro music)has several styles: -Seis Mapeye
-Seis del Dorado -Seis con Decima
-Bordonua -Zapateao -Orocovis
-Tiple -Bombeao -Aguinaldos
-Requinto -Enojao
there are more.
About the Boogalu /Boogaloo(same thing)it's
not just a Son Montuno. You don't dance it like a Son
Montuno. The Boogalu has it's own dance.You don't dance
it like a Cha Cha Cha, Salsa, Son Montuno, Guaracha, Etc...
You know why??? Cause the Nuyoricans & NY-Afro Americans(my
Black Brothers)were the ones that started this dance &
style. Have you ever seen anyone dance the Boogalu???
Come down to NYC,and i don't mean the clubs.Go to the
block parties & street fairs Uptown, to El Barrio,
The South Bronx, Los Sures in Brooklyn, or Orchard beach
in the Bronx. There is where you'll see people dance the
Boogalu the right way.
Your comments about it being shameful
cause the video only showed Boricuas playing Cuban music
well what's wrong w/ that??? Now I must say that we Boricuas
are very proud of our musics All of them Salsa, Bomba,
Plena, Seis Chorreao,La Danza, Y el Bolero. Not just Salsa.
About that Video tape called "Impere"
I will make it my business to watch it(that's what i like
about these boards, you get info wether you like it or
not. But if you really want to see a good & well informative
video tape about Nuyoricans / Puert Ricans see Opius Salsa
of NYC or the one of Puerto Rico(which includes a lot
of the Bomba Y Plena).
Joe Cuba(a Boricua) Had a big Boogalu
hit called "Bang Bang" Tito Puente once yelled
out to him(in reference to the mentioned song)hey Sonny(that
was Joe Cuba's name) you are going off la clave!!! To
which Joe Cuba yelled back Freak La Clave!!! My song is
#1 on the charts and yours is not & i'm making money$$$.
The great Hector Lavoe w/ Wille Colon
sings a Boogalu song called "Eso Se baila asi"
it goes like this -Boogalu no va conmigo, oyelo y bailalo
tu- Hector actually says on the song "that he doesn't
know how to dance it & that it's simply not him.
-Dicen que tu querias mas Boogalooooooo....Pues
toma boogalu-El Gran Combo(song i s called Boogalu de
Gran Combo)
-Mi boogalu tiene sabor a San Juan- Ismael
Rivera y Cortijo y su Combo(Bamba Cure)
El
Lapiz "Salsero De Verdad"
April
21, 2003 -- The history of salsa.
The
same issue that happened to the danceble Cuban music
happened to the Bolero, with the only diference that
the bolero still has its original name.
Since
when the bolero is puertorican music ??????
The bolero, played by almost all latin country, was
born in Cuba.
Some
musicians recognize Cuban music. For instance, Jimmy
Bosh has a cd called "Salsa Dura", but when
you see the credits you can see how he identify each
song with its rhythm (songo,guaguanco,son,...). -- Karioca
April
22, 2003 -- History of Salsa
I never meant to implied that bolero
is Puerto Rican music. in fact i don't care about
that. My point was about the Boogalu & your remarks
about PR's should be ashame because they were only
playing Cuban music in that video tape called Impere,
instead of there own. And i just prove to you about
the many different types of music that are our own.
And why is it that we play Salsa soooo good??? Just
accept the fact that NYC has it's own style &
that is what the people refers to as salsa. And that
is why we call it our own. It's as simple as that.
Yo
soy Salsero de verdad, salsero de verdad,salsero de
verda-ahh- ahhh -El Lapiz
April
24, 2003 -- The history of salsa.
<< And why is it that we
play Salsa soooo good??? >>
Because in the 50s, when the cubans
started to come to New York city, the puertorricans
quit playing bombas and plenas to start playing
all kind of cuban music. I still prefer to listen
to Cuban bands; the puertorrican style is more commercial,
and most lyrics are just about love. -- Karioca
April
29, 2003 --Response to Karioca
Puerto
Ricans are still playing Bomba y Plena.
Mi "socio" you are so wrong. True what
the radio is playing it is commercial salsa love
songs. (To be honest I like love songs too. I
mean there is a time to be romantic also.) But
the movement is on, "Salsa Dura" is
back. and let me point out to you that 95% of
the salsa orquestras in NYC are playing Salsa
Dura . Do you know that out here in NYC the local
salsa bands are producing salsa dura & they
are not getting any radio play.The radio never
plays their music. So you see, even the Nuyorican
salseros are not being played in the radio in
the own town. Imagine even in your own home the
radio ever plays your music. Nor have they ever
been advertised in the local newspapers. Here
are some bands off the top of my head: -The Spanish
Harlem Orquestra -Son Boricua -Wayne Gorbea, Salsa
Picante -Jimmy Bosch, Salsa Dura -Los Soneros
del Barrio -Grupo Caribe -TMC (The Music Club)
-Manny Oquendo, Conjunto Libre -Conjunto 344
None
of these Orquestras are commercial salsa &
they don't ever get any air play in the radio.
Take for instance The Spanish Harlem Orq who were
up for best salsa song of the year(to me this
was the best salsa Cd of the year, that's my opinion)
and I have not yet heard one of their songs in
the radio. So my friend depends are what clubs
that you are going to. Here in NYC at least the
clubs are playing the salsa bands that i mentioned.
at least the clubs got it right. You like Cuban
salsa, more power to you. But I like Nuyorican
/ Puerto Rican salsa. To each it's own.
El
Lapiz "Salsero de Verdad" !!
June
6, 2003 --The History of Salsa...
Izzy Sanabria's Version
Some body here knows who was
Fidias Danilo Escalona?
El
musicólogo Pierre Goldman dice que la
primera vez que se escuchó, relacionada
con la música, fue a finales de los sesenta,
dicha por el locutor venezolano Danilio Fidias
Escalona, quien tenía un programa radiofónico
en Caracas dedicado exclusivamente a la difusión
de los géneros afroantillanos titulado
"La Hora de la Salsa". Aunque, según
otros, su despegue como movimiento se da a partir
de 1966 con la edición del disco "Llegó
la salsa", de los venezolanos Federico
y su Combo. Esto sin contar con que ya antes,
mucho antes, Ignacio Piñeiro "El
poeta del son", desde Cuba provocaba a
los bailadores con aquello de "?échale
salsita" -- Maximiliano Solorzano
June
20, 2003 -- Salsa es Boricua!
While some respected cuban music historians
have popularized the myth that salsa originated
in Cuba the earliest evidence of it was in
the Puerto Rico with Rafael Cortijo and Ismael
Rivera. Salsa started having as background
the rich heritage of the Plena, the Afrocaribean
form of music that that evolved in Puerto
Rico and the influence of more melodic rhythms
brought in and developed by mainline Puerto
Rican musicians that lived in the United States
during the 20's, 30's and 40's and began returning
to Puerto Rico after the second world war.
These arrivals not only gave the newer Puerto
Rican musicians a rich treasure of sounds
from all over Latin America, including the
Cuban Son and the Guaracha, but also placed
on them the responsibility of being creative
before those that knew the difference between
talent and gimmickry. So the emerging Puerto
Rican musician generation began to experiment
in new combinations and ways to improve the
established styles such as plena.
It is here as in other times
across the history of Cuba and Puerto Rico
that music met. The presence in the island
of a group of Cuban exiles product of the
Batista dictatorship together with the return
to the island of seasoned Puerto Rican musicians
that were versed in , among others, Cuban
music meant that the Cuban rhythms, and in
particular the "Son" also made his
presence and were accepted and adapted to
the mix. The young generation of Puerto Rican
musicians in Puerto Rico had all the ingredients
for a "sauce" of musical forms or
"salsa" as it came to be known.
Cuban music was instrumental
in the development of the salsa. There is
no salsa as we know it without the Cuban Son.
The elements of the Son are visible at every
turn of the salsa's first ten years of history.
But from this to imply that salsa originated
in Cuba by Cuban musicians is a stretch of
the imagination in light of the evidence.
Latter, this new format moved
to Cuba with the arrival of the revolutionaries.
The new arrivals in Oriente brought with them
not only a political revolution but also a
musical revolution. And Cuba easily adopted
this music that they saw as coming from Oriente.
For them it was easy because they too had
an afrocaribean musical background and the
strong presence of elements of the Cuban Son
in salsa made it feel as an evolution of their
own music. Thus, by the time of the formation
of the anti Castro Cuban exile community in
the US salsa was already a new musical form
in Puerto Rico that had moved to Cuba.
Incidentally, this is not
the first time that something like this happens.
While many historians say that the latin american
bolero started in the early 1880's in Cuba
this type of bolero actually developed from
the andaluzan bolero via Puerto Rico. The
andaluzan bolero that arrived to Puerto Rico
in the XIX century underwent a transformation
in structure as well as in tempo. However,
it did not saw its discovery to the outside
world until it arrived to Cuba in the early
1880's. There it kept its new structure but
its tempo was further accelerated. It came
to Cuba after the Lares uprising with the
arrival in Cuba of exiled Puerto Rican revolutionaries
fighting against the Spanish rule.
In the early 60's this new
form of Puerto Rican music later called salsa
was taken to New York to satisfy the demand
for things Puerto Rican from the now established
community that developed as a result of the
migration of almost half a million Puerto
Ricans to New York during the 50's. At the
same time, however, a new massive migration,
this time of Cubans, was taking place. But
their main goal was the city of Miami in Florida.
The need of the Cuban exile
community to develop a new "Cuban American"
personality acceptable for all in the US moved
them to adopt some modes of other groups that
preceded them. They took as they see fit and
claimed as their creation some popular cultural
trends that had not been claimed by others
before. Hence the myth that salsa started
in Cuba. This was aided in part by a slew
of excellent refugee writers that came to
the US as a result of the closing of several
Cuban newspapers in the island. Some of these
writers were , and still are, respected chroniclers
of the Latin entertainment scene that have
produced very valuable historical documents.
However, they tend to have a certain Cuban
bias that produces a distorted interpretation
of facts as it pertain with creations that
have some elements of Cuban influence.
Also some ascending Cuban
musical performers headed further up north,
to New York and found that acceptance was
easier if they adopted the music of the dominant
hispanic community. La Lupe, for example,
was accepted not for guarachas or other distinctively
Cuban sounds but for performing the same music
that the Puerto Ricans played and danced to
at the time of her arrival.
Hence the myth that salsa
came from Cuba comes from the fact that it
has strong elements of Cuban music, especially
of the Cuban "Son", the over zealousness
of the Cuban writers that can not come to
terms with the fact that some other people
took the Cuban Son and other styles and created
something as impacting as salsa and the adoption
of it into the acts of arriving Cuban performers.
The evidence, however, points
in another direction. Not only there is evidence
that salsa started in the late 50's in places
like Santurce, Puerto Rico but there is also
ample evidence that the ones that helped to
transport it to the international arena were
for the most part Puerto Ricans and in particular
Puerto Ricans that were from New York or that
at a certain point of their life lived in
New York. If salsa had originated in Cuba
its spread would have been from Miami on out
and not from New York on out.
The point at which we find
the Puerto Rican musicians at fault is at
failing to claim their creation as their own.
They were too busy "making salsa"
to care about taking proper credit for their
creation.
As
a final note we have to mention that Ismael
Rivera, the person also named by the handle
"Sonero Mayor" can also be considered
the "Father of the Salsa", the person
that set the patterns to follow by the salsa
for the following 40 years -- Milton Valentin
January
14, 2004--
History of Salsa
As a half Cuban...musician (Salsa) born
in New York- I was in high school in the
mid-to late 60's. I saw the Boogaloo era
(Large involvement of black-American musicians
and elements) flow into the very patriotic
Salsa movement early 70's. What a lot of
people don't realize is that ALMOST ALL
OF THE SONGS themselves were Cuban. Every
band I played in and heard on records and
radio were rearranging old Cuban standards.
If the NY sound- (Chord extensions, progressions)
was not placed over old Chappotin, Machito,
Arsenio lyrics and inspirations (verbatim)
were not placed over the music I could see
how one would look at Salsa as a N.Y. Puerto
Rican phenomenon.
But this wasn't the case. The great Boricua
musicians I associated with-I'm ashamed
to admit knew more about Cuba and it's music
much more than I did. Whatever I know about
Cuba I owe to the Boricua's. These guys
IMMERSED themselves in Tata Guines, Cachao,
Guillermo Barretto, Yeyito Iglesias, Chocolate,
and Chico O'Farrill.
I dare to say that If U.S. rhythym and Blues,
Rock n Roll and Jazz were not present on
the Radio and T.V. the music (Salsa) would
have even been and remain more Cuban that
it is today. I used to marvel that despite
those outside influences(R n'B, R n R, Jazz)
quite a few bands would play and search
to be more tipico...Pacheco, Ralph Roig,
Sonora Poncena).
There were bands that held on to the Conjunto
style- NO TIMBALES-Pacheco, Pete"Conde",
Roberto Torres. The N.Y. Charanga' s displayed
even less originality. They were virtually
carbon copies of Aragon, Sensacion and Fajardo.
I also marveled at the fact that hardly
any Bomba and Plena were even considered-
this made Willie Colon and Mon Rivera's
"there goes the neighborhood"
the tremendous and original groundbreaker
it was, along with Zaperoko.
You have to understand one Salsa Hit maker-
I won't say his name, would listen to Cuban
shortwave radio, tape the songs; and change
or update the arrangements. When the day
comes that the embargo is lifted the amount
of royalties due the Cuban songwriters will
be staggering. Oddly enough the music that
is in fact a more original N.Y., Boricua
innovation-SALSA ROMANTICA is put down overwhelmingly.
I don't like all of it but a lot of it is
very well done. I just feel that there should
be more of interplay as far as radio play
balance between Salsa Dura and Romantica.
What I like about romantica is the more
relaxed tempo...why does every song -Old
School have to sound like the Players are
kicking someone's A _ _? Slow down a little.
Also a lot of the Musicians who criticize
it- can't do it. Remember: Playing slower
and swinging is more difficult than playing
fast. My final thought: It's All Salsa-
But It's overwhelmingly CUBAN MUSIC>
Que Viva/Love Bobby
February
4, 2004 -- musica
Let me begin by addressing that
Cuba and Puerto Rico son las dos alas del
pajaro antillano as written by lola de tio.
Cuba and Puerto Rico remained the last two
colonies of spain before the spanish american
war and by this not only through books but
logically we can perceive the cultural interchange
that occurred between both countries and
even before that.
Cuba and Puerto Rico share many similarities
and its major one is music. If we look at
history, we will find that that basically
the same african tribes arrived in the caribbean
be it puerto rico, cuba or hispaniola.
Now, I read in a comment that was posted
a man asked "well, do you know any
yoruba words" asking a puerto rican
this question and implying that we know
nothing or have no idea how to project or
emit an afro feel to our music.. Well, obviously
in cuba the black concentration was greater
and so language was preserved much more
than in puerto rico whose size is much smaller.
Yet in our african tradition of bomba many
words can be traced back to the bantu and
yoruban tribes.
Take for instance "yuba la mar ile",
a traditional bomba song. the lyrics developed
in Loiza, where the greatest concentration
of slaves were kept and majorly of yoruban
origin. if we take these words in consideration
well see that "ile" is house,
while yuba is more than likely a contraction
of the word moyuba (hail). This song was
majorly performed in front of the ocean
validating the theory. Other songs like
Deloye and landile, danguillere bondon bambule,
elusum and others... even the traditional
"kinkamankonde" can probably be
traced to bantu dialects.
Puerto Ricans say "el que no tiene
dinga, tiene mandinga". Cubans say
"el que no tiene del congo, tiene carabali"
both expressions mean the same thing relating
to the blackhood of the people. Puerto Ricans
call their girfriends or boyfriends Jevas/jevos
african derived. Mofongo and mondongo are
special afro puerto rican plates. Nanigo
was a baby as used by the elderly black
in loiza, black town of puerto rico. afro
Cubans can relate to these words as well
maybe in different definitions, but still
the same word of the same origin. These
are examples of the things that we more
than likely shared as nations during the
interchange of cultures that occurred.
Many blacks in puerto rico, even the elderly
who still speak what we know as (bozal)
the dialect of the slaves who were already
living in spain and christianized before
they arrived on the island. My great great
grandfather was a slave on the island and
according to my great grandmother, he never
learned good spanish, just bozal "oye
negro, po'que tu ta jabrando de mi"
Jabrando=hablando.
This message is for the cubans who dont
understand that africa also lives in puerto
rico, so we have a very close link between
one another. It is understood that the origins
of salsa are cuban, every element and character
is idiosincratic of cuba but we puerto ricans
can express your music through our souls
for we too carry the genes. :) -- Giovanni
February
28, 2004 -- Salsa Topic
I would like to start by thanking
everyone for sharing knowledge in a very
disciplined fashion. I enjoyed reading your
research, where you made some valuable points,
however, I would like to add a few things.
First of all, I dont think much of the name
salsa, salsa to me is basically an agressive
son, and if you have any doubts just ask
yourself why many of the salsa singers are
called soneros.
Most of the credit for salsa popularity
goes to the puertoricans, but also puertoricans
are to blame for playing this bubble gum
salsa that is played today. Salsa has evolved
into some kind of romantic music, which
is a shame, due to the fact that the roots
of salsa are based on the dancer, but i'm
not upset, they're just trying to make more
money and by playing the salsa that is played
in cuba today, or by puertoricans back in
the days, they will only have acceptance
from a more limited audience. A perfect
example of it will be The beatles and The
Rollingstones, The beatles might be consider
a rock and roll band but for a really rock
and roll fan, I dont think their music is
challenging enough, but of course The Beatles
will sell far more records. In conclusion,
puertoricans might deserve the credit for
the popularity, but if you ask me, is the
cubans who deserve the credit for continuing
to play the salsa that goes hand by hand
with the dancer. excuse my spelling.
-- Eldrys
