August 13, 2002

Real NY on2 versus Toronto on2

We will post any constructive feedback from our readers.

July 3, 2002 -- Babaluu TO vs. Babalu NY

Last Wednesday night (June 26) I was at my favourite TO salsa spot, Babaluu, for my favourite salsa night of the week, Latin Roots, hosted by one of my favourite TO salsa DJs, Alvaro C.

The following night I was in NY and decided to check out their Babalu and DJ Elvira, who also plays classic salsa tracks. This was my first salsa trip to NY and I was eager to check this place out because I had heard so much about it.

Here's a brief rating comparison on several criteria I feel are important to a complete salsa night. Keep in mind that I have been going to Babaluu TO for 4 years and was at Babalu NY for only one night and my judgments are limited somewhat. However, I consider myself to be a keen salsero and will try to be as objective as possible. I am also only comparing Babalu NY's Thursday to Babaluu TO's Wednesday (in my opinion it's the only night worth going to Babaluu!).

#1 Layout (club size, size of dance floor, bar locations, etc.)

Babaluu TO is intimate (bordering on uncomfortably small if it's packed), the bars don't get in the way of the dancers and, for a small club and for the most part, the non-dancing traffic is kept to the periphery of the dance floor. For a small place, the dance floor is a good size and extends throughout the entire bar (i.e. no carpet!). So you can dance anywhere there is room (if it's packed, forget about it). I can really move on the floor here although it's a bit sticky depending on how recently the floors have been refinished.

Bablu NY is much bigger than it's TO counterpart and has two levels which are elevated from the main dance floor. The main bar is at the back of the third elevated level. There is a stage at the front of the main dance floor (more or less the same size as the stage at Lula Lounge). There is plenty of room to dance on any of the levels even though the 2nd and 3rd levels have tables. The floor really moves! It's not as slick as the clourthouse floor but much smoother than Babaluu TO. There are plenty of places to sit as well (being a bigger club this can be acheived) including various couches and boothes. It's not as intimate though and the DJ booth is up and away from the dancers and patrons. I like the DJ to be in the thick of things as it makes for a more personal experience.

#2 The DJs:

DJ Alvaro plays the best classic salsas on vinyl. His song selection is the best in the city (if you love classics, which I do). I think his mixing and turntable skills are excellent and I can't wait to get a copy of Latin Roots 4.

DJ Elvira doesn't mix. She plays an entire song and lets it stop completely (silence) before starting another song. I don't like this at all because it breaks up my flow and I think it's boring. Her song selection is excellent though (also classic salsas, also vinyl).

#3 The dancers:

The great dancers in TO (most of whom frequent Latin Roots) are just as good as the better dancers that I saw June 27th at Babalu NY. A lot of TO dancers dance NY style and they do it with style, grace and a lot of skill. There is more to salsa than NY style though, and TO expemlifies this. The variation and diversity among the dancers at Latin Roots is greater than at Babalu NY, where everyone dances EXACTLY THE SAME. Beleive me, my partner and I got a lot of looks from the regulars (you can spot them a mile away!) but we did our own thing and had a great time.

Scores: Layout - Babaluu TO = 5/5 Babalu NY = 5/5
Size - Babaluu TO = 3/5 Babalu NY = 4/5
Floor - Babaluu TO = 4/5 Babalu NY = 5/5
Intimicy - Babaluu TO = 5/5 Babalu NY = 3/5
DJ Alvaro C. = 5/5 DJ Elvira = 3/5
Dancers Quality - Babaluu TO = 5/5 Babalu NY = 5/5
Dancers Diversity - Babluu TO = 5/5 Babalu NY 3/5

Overall = Babaluu TO = 32/35 Babalu NY = 28/35

Edge to Latin Roots at Babaluu TO overall. Alvaro's sets kick ass and so does the club. I think TO is a great salsa city but I'm biased and still have a lot of traveling to do.
Josh Kahn

The Feedback....

July 23, 2002 -- NY TO VS NY NY

Well, lets say the dance lovers of salsa here in Toronto, step the salsa and the New Yorkers feel the salsa and that is it in a nutshell. You all need to feel, what is happening in the music. I do give great credit in the hard work that has been shown to try to copy the New York style, but please people, start feeling the latin rhythms. Thats what it is all about - rhythm. Martin Samuels

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July 24, 2002 -- TO vs. NY

Rose, That guy, Martin Samuels, who wrote in about TO dancers not feeling the music has no idea what he's talking about.

Looks like the start of another controversial topic. I direct him to my Babaluu TO vs. Babalu NY report.

I was so incensed at Martin Samuel's comments that I had to write in again before waiting for a reply from him.

I refer EVERYONE reading this to the videos of Ana/Orville and Oscar/Vanessa posted on the web AND to the videos posted of NY dancers at www.imambo.tv. Let's all compare the dancing and decide who is "feeling" the music and who isn't. I am of the opinion that they all are.

Martin, I eagerly await your critical, concise, and constructive explanation of exactly why dancers in TO do not feel the music.


July 25, 2002 -- TO vs. NY

Hey Rose, I got in touch with Martin and he has clarified his position. He was refering only to beginners who have been dancing from 2 - 5 months. I certainly did not intend to vilify him on the Internet for not being clear!

I love dancing in TO. I think it's great that there are so many dancers who can follow many different styles all the while adding a certain TO flare! This is just to clarify that I wasn't only talking about ON 2 dancing because I know that there is more to NY style than ON 2.

Thanks again for posting all the fun discussion topics! Josh

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July 26, 2002 -- Babaluu TO vs. Babalu NY

This is an excellent comparison. I've only been to the Babalu in NY, and you have described every detail of the place. One thing? It's actually a dinner theatre. When the Copa closed last year to move to a new location Mr. RM, Mr. JR and Mr. PN decide to take advantage and use the space adjacent to The Babalu Restaurant. Too bad you did go to Nell's in the downstairs level to see some diversified dancing. In addition you are right about Elvira. In fact, last time I was at the Club the music wasn't so hot and it surprise me cause she's the one who DJ's at Nell's! JaneMas

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July 31, 2002 -- Martin's comments

Why would he even critize beginners on 2?
Does Martin even know how to dance on 2?
Hopefully I'm wrong but Martin is probably one of those old timers that does not appreciate what is happening in the dance scene today as he only knows the old style (I'm seen him) -- BJ

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August 8, 2002 -- TO vs NY

Hello, My name is Som and I am a NY on2 dancer/performer. I love to visit websites from other cities and take a web journey into new salsa scenes. I am extremely dissappointed to see the articles comparing a NY to TO. Though the article attempts to compare a club with the same name, it comes across as a comparison of something more. There are so many places I feel I can go with this but I do not know where to start.... With further thought, I do not see the point. The salsa/mambo scene is diffrent everywhere. I would like to stress the word diffrent. Having traveled myself, I can definately think of places visited that did not have the dance quality in which I was accoustomed. Never would I make or write comments that suggested the place I visited was inferior in any way. It serves no purpose. The TO dancer admitted to visiting NY's Babaloo one time and is probably a regular at the TO night spot. Is this an accurate measure after one visit? And if the answer is no (which it certainly is) why make the comparission at all? There are many factors that go into what was described at Babaloo's NY. I refuse to attempt and offer an explanation because I feel it is irrelevant due to this fact. When you visit a city/country, you should enjoy and learn from the new experience and people. Use it as an opportunity to become a better dancer. Not as a forum for biased claims with little or no facts to support it. I plan to visit Canada soon because I hear it has become a great place for Salsa/Mambo lovers. When I get there, I plan to enjoy all the city has to offer to this music, dance and culture. Maybe you should take that same philosophy next time you travel -- Som

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August 8, 2002 -- NY vs. TO

Hi Som, No one can draw any conclusions about NY dancing/club scene in general from my comparison. This was not my intention and I thought I had made that clear. I don't think that NY dancers are inferior at all and I'm surprised that you inferred that was my major point. I can't wait to visit more clubs in NY so that I can increase my salsa geography knowledge from first hand experience.

You need to recognize that my comparison was explicitly subjective and not an attack directed at NY dancers.

If you ever visit Toronto, please get in touch with me and I will be more than happy to show you around and we can discuss common issues and learn from our different styles.

Josh

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August 9, 2002 -- BJ on 2

One thing you forgot BJ, you guys here in Toronto are dancing one of the old styles( the styles danced in Toronto has been danced in New York for several years). So I guessed you just learned something from a old timer. And yes, I dance to what I FEEL in the music. Martin Samuels

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August 13, 2002 -- TO vs NYC

Rose let me first start by saying your site is still a great read when I am eating at lunchtime. Here is my take on this whole issue. I was born in P.R. raised in NYC and now live in Toronto. I am sorry my fellow New Yorkers but the top dancers in TO can hang with ANY, and I mean ANY, top dancers in NYC. These guys and gals up here take it very seriously and travel all over the world to learn. I have danced with many of them, and I can tell the difference between someone who is going through the motions and someone who feels the music. And again sorry Homeys, but they feel the music here as well. But turning it around now, this is Toronto's problem that NYC does not have. There are probably only about 100 awesome Salsa dancers here, and they are pretty clickey. Not all but for the most part they tend to dance with each other. Which is understandable, because there isn't a middle class of Salsa here in Toronto. You are either awesome or a beginner. I consider myself in the middle. And there are WAY more middle Salsa dancers in NYC then they are here. Believe me it is just as frustrating for us middle guys who can only ask the great gals to dance and because of the clickey thing, well it doesn't happen sometimes. In NYC you can always find someone who dances on the 2 or 1 in any club. And believe me I feel the music and so do they. We are just the majority who do not have time, energy, patience...to go to the next level. Toronto needs to develop it's middle class. Which they are, albeit slowly.. Once they (we, I am a Torontonian now!) do, this will be one of the top Salsa dancing cities in the world. NYC may still have it over us, but we are gaining ground and if NYC wants to hang, they better stop yapping and start dancing, because from what I hear from my cousins back in PR who attended the congress, Canada was one of the countries who stole the show in Puerto Rico. (Ya Gotta love this site!) -- Alfie

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August 15, 2002 -- ON 2 - Response to Martin

I am aware that the New York style is not new to NY. It's actually much longer than a few years - I would say more like 10 to 15 possibly longer. But it is relatively new to Toronto. Toronto was only introduced to ON 2 just before the SALSAWEB Convention. From there it's been slowly flourishing.

Thanks for your input though as you are educating some of TOSALSA readers.
I was in NY 6 years ago and was blown away by their dancing at the time. Too bad I wasn't exposed more to it and wasn't able to take any classes. -- BJ

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August 15, 2002 -- Response to Alfie's comments

Alfie, what's up it's Rene from UnitedSalseros.
I agree with you that Toronto has made great strides in catching up to N.Y. Recently I sent an email to David Melendez an instructor, promoter and one of the organizers of the East Coast Congress. It started off by my admiration to what he's doing in promoting Salsa in NYC (he teaches adults as well kids - keeps them off the streets). Anyways, before I realized it I was boasting how good Toronto has been getting. Not to sound arrogant, and I may get in trouble later, but I feel, that the top Toronto Instructors don't take a back seat to anyone. We still have a fair amout to catch up on styling, though we are also making some ground.

As for being clickey.... Yes it is to a point. However, I don't turn down beginners, unless I'm very tired and I know that most others will dance with other social dancers/students if asked. I try to have at least one dance with someone new most days I'm out.
There was a debate that was held by Stephanie Gurnon and Dave Paris about this. The students sometimes don't realize what the instructors go through. Myself and Teddy have always tried to encourage our Asst. Instructors to dance with new people (beginners and advance). However, you can't force them...only encourage them.

Try asking someone to dance next time. I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised.
It's a given that most dancers want to dance with someone of their calibre or better but that doesn't mean that they won't dance with someone who is not their level.

Then there are the instructors. I know some instructors that do not want to dance with any students. I can sympathize. Sometimes I'm asked to dance and then before I know it the person wants me to give then a class right there and then. Remember that after teaching numerous hours that last thing you want to do is teach again. For FREE on top of it. I would suggest to the instructors to use my line. I'll dance with you but not teach you (sometimes I wind up giving them tips anyways but I try to hold myself back.)

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