October
2, 2001
Dear Readers, here are two responses to Heidy's email on September
27th, which I thought was only some club info viewpoints which I thought
I'd share for those of you who would like to see an alternative place
to hang out. I personally didn't take offense to it, but obviously
some readers did...
October
2, 2001
Hey Heidy, Since you think it's so important to hang out with your young,
affluent, hip, educated, completely authentic Latin friends, maybe you
should stay at New Momentos 24 hours a day and make sure you don't venture
off the path to all the other old, poor, boring, uneducated, fake Latin
nights, clubs, and bars in Toronto. Don't challenge yourself by listening
to different kinds of music and meeting new people who might be slightly
different from you. We don't want your pure Latin culture to be contaminated
by contact with others. Oh, and that way you won't have to waste your
time putting down all the fake Latin-Canadians who can't speak Spanish
properly. Cheers, A non-Latino Torontonian
October 2, 2001
I'm sorry but you sound like a "real" snob. You obviously
don't know how to dance salsa that's why your complaining about the
clubs and the music. If you really want to hear "real" latin
music then why don't you go to the countries that you mentioned to go
hear it? Also, there are a lot of really educated latino-canadians and
we don't appreciate your ignorant generalizations about us. If you had
a bad experience with one person at a club you can't assume that we're
all like that. Haven't you ever heard of the expression, "you can't
judge a book by it's cover"? Or didn't they teach that in your
Country? Canadians are so welcoming to other nations by letting them
come and live, study and work here. The last thing we need is to be
put down by our kindness -- Lupita
October
6, 2001
Response to Lupita and Non-Latino Canadian
It is not a generaliz-ation to say Latinos in
Canada are not representative of Latinos in their own countries. Most
Latinos who have been living in Canada for a while are from poorer,
less educated classes of Latin American countries.
Many were refugees from war or economic poverty. Many have made a new
life and in Canada and have educated themselves. And that's great. But
many people still remain vulgar, violent and without class. There are
people like this in all countries, but in Canada, they seem to make
up a majority of Latin-Canadians or seem in charge of protraying Latinos
here. Things like Miss Legs Plaza Flamingo, Miss Mundo latino, etc,
are very "corriente" or low class.
The thing is Canadians can't distinguish Latin people who are common
and middle class Latinos. For many middle class Latinos, many Canadian-Latin
people were the hillbillies, rednecks, trashy people in Latin countries.
There are Latin people who have studied in university and are professionals.
Not all Latin women dress like Jennifer Lopez. You are right you shouldn't
judge a book by its cover, but you can judge a person by the way he
behaves and the vulgarities he says in Spanish. If I see a Latin guy
dressed in a purple suit, with a lot of gold chains buried in maze of
chest hair, it's hard not to judge the book by its cover.
If Plaza Flamingo and El Rancho were not Latin places, they would have
closed by now. Nobody wants to spend time in a really tacky place and
vulgar people. But for many Canadian people its tackiness has the appeal
of something foreign and exotic and its people seem to protray stereotypical
images of Latin passion. Also I am sure, the Canadian government also
appreciates the money, we international students of English spend in
Canada. By the way, I am from Mexico. I hope you publish this e-mail,
because it is the only forum that allows people to express what they
really feel.
Good work, Rose -- Heidy
October
10, 2001 - Francisco's Response to Heidy
It never seizes to amaze me how arrogant and superficial some people
can be.
Heidy represents your typical anglophile latina who
is envious of Latinos in North America. She claims to be "authentic"
latino, what BS! Heidy is such a latina name, wow! your purity is
breathtaking. Chances are you are some rich white girl of European
descent who has never worked a day in her life b/c Mommy and Daddy
have always paid for everything.
You have some nerve telling us who is and is not latino.
As far as I am concerned latinos in the latin countries are the least
"latino". Latinos in those countries seem to only know American
music and Latin rock. They don't have the first clue of how to dance
any of the latin dances.They all blindly worship American pop culture,
it is almost embarassing. You think you would see latino culture instead
you get nothing but regurgitated U.S. pop culture. Latinos in those
countries know Britney Spears but you will be pressed to find one
who can recognise Ruben Blades.
I seen numerous exchange students from Latin countries
sit back at the clubs and watch in amazement of how good people dance
here. I have yet to see one exchange student dance salsa, they are
clueless. But when the hiphop, techno, and American pop music comes
on they rush to dancefloor like a herd of cattle.
In my opinion Salsa is as latino as you can get. If
you actually took the time to listen to some of the songs you would
see that lyrics talk about all aspects of latino life.
But that is the difference b/w you and I. I have grown
up in this great country. I am in law school and I sure know more
about Latin-Canadians than you will ever know. You are making such
simplistic observations that it almost makes me want to question your
intelligence.
If you are so adamant about being a "pure latina"
why are you here studying English? We aren't you furthering your knowledge
of Spanish? That alone reveals how much of an Anglophile you are.
The sad truth is that alot of latins from the latino
countries are very jealous of the fact that latins in North America
have the best of both worlds. We speak English fluently whereas they
don't and never will b/c they will always have an accent. Latin-Canadians
have all the opportunities in the world here. Whereas in their countries
unless you are born into a rich family (usually white, who for the
most part are Anglo/Euro philes) your chances of "making it"
are very slim.
There is good and bad in every culture. The latin
presence in Canada goes back several decades. We are a very mixed
and complex group like every other group. We are everything but a
monolithic group. The latin-Canadian community has greatly expanded
and its members have done and are going to do great things in this
wonderful country. Heidy's very short presence in Canada does not
qualify here to make any significant comment or judgement on the latin
community. You have not lived the experience that we have lived so
I am sorry to say that you have no authority on this matter.
I hope that in any future statement you make about
Latin-Canadians you will attempt to not make it so obvious that you
possess the IQ of a cornflake.
Sincerely, Francisco
October
12, 2001
Well said Francisco!!! -- Lupita!
October
12, 2001
English
I have seen in the forum many comments about the word "LATIN",
so I thought about sending you my point of view in this regard..
First of all, LATIN or HISPANIC is not a race as we see it on many
forums and applications, but a group of people that share a very similar
culture, tradition and costume, in which we can find different races
including whites, blacks, indians, asians, mixes and so on.
What happens is that here in North America people think that white
people only exist here, as if they don't know that in the same way
white europeans came to this land, they also settled in Central, South
America and the Caribbean, as well.
Also, the language people speak has nothing to do with the race they
are, so you can speak spanish, italian, french, english......and be
any race, including white, black or mixed.
Sometimes American (usa) people say, " they are not Cubans, they
are white or black", and it is really ridiculous -- Abdel
(a Cuban)
Spanish
He observado en el Forum diferentes debates con respecto al termino
LATINO, y he decidido enviarles mi perpectiva sobre lo que es Latino.
Primeramente LATINO no es una raza, como clasifican
en tantas formas y aplicaciones. Los Latinos o Hispanos, no somos
otra raza, sino un grupo que comparte una cultura y unas tradicciones
bien semejantes,en el cual se encuentran personas de diferentes razas,
whites, blacks, mixes, indians, asians.
Lo que pasa es que en Norteamerica se piensa que solo
aqui (usa) viven las personas WHITES, y no saben que de la misma forma
en que los blancos europeos llegaron aqui, tambien llegaron a centro,
suramerica y el caribe.
Y otro punto, el lenguaje no tiene nada ver con la
raza, se puede hablar frances, espanol, italiano, ruso o cualquier
otro idioma y ser WHITE, BLACK o MIXED.
October
19, 2001 -- Remark on Heidy's mail
This is just funny because I was talking to a friend of mine about
this topic not a long ago. I think we can not judge/conceive people
for the venues he/she hangs out at.
I am a professional IT analyst who likes going to 'El rancho' and
'Plaza Falimgo', among other clubs, because I like latin dancing and
I think these two places are good if you want to have a good Salsa
night. As a mater of fact I stopped going to Spanish rock pop clubs
because I have more fun going to salsa night clubs now. So people
out there : please stop being so narrow minded!.
BTW I am mexican too. Cheers, Victor.
October 29, 2001 -- Heidy's
response to Francisco
Francisco,
Why do you think if you are white you can't be Latino? Most people
in Latin America are of mixed European and Native American heritage.
Probably you have European blood in you too, Francisco. I probably
know more about North America than you know about Latin America. Maybe
it's true in some Latin American countries (probably Peru or Ecuador)
or the pueblo where your parents are from that only if you come from
a few wealthy families can you become educated or successful.
But this is not true in Mexico. It's true that people in Mexico like
American music, but Mexico has its own musical stars and its own celebrities.
If you want to make it in Latin music world, you have to become famous
in Mexico, the gateway to Latin America.
Because of the independent nature and size of the Mexican music industry
it has been resistant to outside musical influences like Salsa. Poorer
countries in Latin America accept Salsa as part of their music, because
they can't produce their own music.
Another thing. Salsa is not Latin music, it's maybe
Cuban, or Puerto Rican or New York music, but it doesn't represent
all Latin America. You dance Salsa, are trying to be Cuban or Puerto
Rican? Maybe I don't dance well, that's only me. But I have seen Latin
Canadians dance salsa and I have been to Cuba and Puerto Rico.
My judgement? Many Latin Canadians can't dance very well either. What
is very funny, is that many dance in a very ballroom way or North
American way. The lyrics in salsa dance talk about life of Latinos
in NORTH AMERICA, not Latin America. But of the lyrics are in Spanglish
or a very low level of Spanish. Latin Canadians or Latin Americans
don't speak with an accent, are you sure about that? Even the Latinos
born in Canada or
the United States, you can detect a mile away they are Latin. Have
you met Mexican-Americans in East LA or Puerto Ricans in New York?
December
14, 2001
oye!, just want to clarify something you said, heidi. you say that salsa
music talks about latino life in North America??
Considering the fact that there are so many puerto ricans in new york,
you can only expect to hear songs called 'Jibaro en Nueva York".
[a jibaro is a poor puerto rican farm worker, sort of like a ranchero].
But if you want to hear salsa music depicting life in Puerto Rico, listen
to "De Barrio Obrero A La Quince" by Willie Rosario. You will
hear him talking about Barrio Obrero[famous ghetto] in PR, piragueros[puerto
rican piraguera vendors], and spending your last quarter on the guagua[puerto
rican word for bus]. PARA LO QUE SEPAS! -- A.C.Maldonado
December
18, 2001 - Response to Heidy
I love it when your opponents in a debate further support your side
of the argument through their vacuous and intellectually bankrupt statements.
What makes you think that I was not aware of the fact
that Latin America is ethnically diverse? I never made the statement
that if you are white you are not Latino. Latinos come in all colours.
You obviously lack reading and comprehension skills.
I am half German and Spaniard. I am very familiar
with Euro-Latino history. There are reasons why Latinos of Euro descent
make-up the majority of the elite and governing classes. It's called
colonialism and European imperialism. Do you even read any history?
I was making reference to the fact that most ruling
elite classes in Latin America are primarily of European background.
There are next to no Latin countries where the native indigenous population
plays an active or primary decision-making role in their political
and economic institutions.
Mexico is a country that has an enormous indigenous
population and yet they are one group that appears to be the most
disempowered and oppressed in that country. How can you call a country
independent and democratic when the corrupt(PRI) party coercively
and arbitrarly ruled Mexico for 70 years? Why is that in Mexico judges,
government officials, social workers, members of church groups etc.,
and many other individuals who work towards creating a better standard
of living in that country get assasinated?
Why is that Mexico lacks an independent legal community?
The key to any free and democratic society is an autonomous legal
community that protects and safeguards the rights and liberties of
its citizenry against the state.
I recommend that you stop being so naive about the
social and political realities of Latin America. Almost all Latin
countries possess the aforementioned inequities. Do yourself a favour
and stop disseminating fallacies.
I am sorry to say my parents don't come from a "Pueblo".
My family comes from the city of one of the fastest developing Latin
countries, Santiago, Chile. Both my parents come from an affluent
and educated background. They came here for political reasons not
economic. They refused to practice their professions in a military
dictatorship.
Salsa is the music of "poorer countries"?
With statements like these I really must question your level of intelligence.
How old are you? 14? 15? You may be an adult but your statements reflect
the IQ of a retarded head of lettuce. Japan and certain European countries
have salsa bands? Are they economically downtrodden?
Salsa music has a "low-level of Spanish"?
Again, I am beginning to wonder how you ever got into university.
Someone must have made a generous "donation" on your behalf.
What is "low-level Spanish"? Are those lyrics we can hear
in Gloria Trevi's music, or maybe in the music of Lorena Herrera?
Latinos born and raised in North America, for the
most part, speak English fluently. You are merely pointing to a small
exceptions. It is only those individuals who arrive after a certain
age (usually 12 and over)who will develop an accent.
Latinos in Canada usually dance one of three styles
of salsa, L.A., N.Y., or Cuban. Those who take an interest in this
great music dance it very well. It is very rare to see these styles
danced in certain Latin countries, this is largely due to a lack of
interest. Latinos in those countries would much rather dance to Britney
Spears than to El Gran Combo.
If by dancing Salsa one is a trying to be Puerto Rican
and/or Cuban (using Heidy's logic) then Heidy's love for Latin Rock
qualifies her as wanting to be Anglo-American for rock music is a
product of Anglo-North American culture. Thus, according to Heidy's
logic, groups such as Mana and Jaguares are really "American
try-hards" with no identity. As Heidy would argue, they therefore
must come from "poorer countries" because they cannot create
their own music. Francisco
April 18, 2002 -- A response
to Heidy
Hi Rose, I wanted to write a response to Heidy whose
comments seemed to have sparked several comments from your readers.
Well here are a few more for you Heidy -- better late
than never.
We Latinos are from a poor continent - sorry to break
the news to you. In your note to this site you mention class over
and over again. Class is a state of mind. Socio-economic status does
not make a person though lack of it has certainly produced some of
the world's most famous revolutionaries. Pablo Neruda - not sure if
you have ever heard of him - would by your definition be considered
class-less. Yes, he too was from a poor country and his father worked
on the railway.
People like you are a disgusting example of the reason
why there has been so much bloodshed in South America. People from
privileged families who exploit the working poor and who have been
allowed for centuries to own 90% of the wealth in Latin America. I
bet you are white, I bet you like to tell people that your real roots
are in Spain. Well good for you Heidy. I'm brown, my family was poor,
my parents came here to escape persecution. My father fought for the
right to universal education, heath care and for basic human rights.
Thanks to my parents I did have the opportunities
that they didn't and I am very well educated. Educated enough to know
that silly people like you who try so hard to distinguish yourselves
from the rest of your latin brothers and sisters are the true class-less
society.
We, as newcomers, should try to support one another.
We should work together to promote education, hard work, health and
wellness and spirituality in our culture. My advice to you Heidy is
to love a bit more and spend less time being ashamed of who you are.
Believe it or not if you are truly Latina then you must have the same
blood as the rest of us part European and yes PART INDIA!!! native
Indian blood runs through my veins and I'm proud of it!!
By the way, if you would like to expand on some of
your rather limited opinions I can recommend several good books on
Latin American Literature, Culture and History, they were among my
favourite courses in University. Can you believe it - they accept
anybody these days regardless of race, religions, age or socio-economic
status! Alice
April 20, 2002 -- rebuttal
Hello, We Latinos are from a poor continent? First
of all, Mexico is part of NORTH AMERICA. That's why it's called NAFTA.
You a couple of courses at York and you think you an expert on Latin
America. I know Mexico has many problems with
corruption and poverty. But Canada has similar problems as Mexico
has, not to the same expent, but similar. In Canada, also the gap
is between rich and poor is widening, access to health and educational
resources is more difficult. But of course, the wealth is better distributed
in Canada than in Mexico. But of tired of people lumping Latinos together
!!
I am tired of being expected to listen to salsa music, subjected to
Jennifer Lopez stereotype. Mexico is a poor country, no doubt. Also,
many of the rich people are of
European background. But it is a much more complex picture than that.
Mexico and Brazil are the richest countries in Latin America and now
are much wealthier than many of the former Eastern block "white"
countries. There is a huge middle class made of people who are "brown"
or mestizos. Nowadays, discrimination based on the color exists, but
it is probably as common as it is in Canada. I am tired of Latinos
from other countries speaking for me and my culture. Where is this
huge indigneous population in Mexico? 80%? no, I think not. Give me
break. Indigneous people should have self-determination and say in
their own lives. Of course. But you want them to rule the whole country?
Mexico is much more than the Zapatistas that the Canadian press fixate
on.
What does Alice mean when she says all Latin people
are part Indian and European? Has she been to Argentina where, whites
are both poor and rich? Don't make it into a race issue or a class
issue. When I say someone' is "corriente" or naco, it has
much more to do behavior, culture, education and manners. Many people
who were suddenly dirt poor,
when then try to show off their wealth in a tacky, vulgar way. When
I say this, I say this as middle class person, as a "brown"
person as Alice said, a person who has to study and work hard.
It is a shame to see that many young Canadian Latinos
share the same stereotypes that Canadian have of Latin America. It
is not all divided into poor and rich. A hard working "brown"
middle class who have has advantages of the opportunities their counries
has taken root. Salsa is the music of the Carribean not Latin America.
Salsa is the music of Latin people who in Canada and the United States
to make them feel more Latin. Salsa is not the POPULAR music of Mexico,
Japan, European countries. Heidy
April 23, 2002 - response
to Heidy
No one is imposing Salsa music on you. According to
my understanding YOU were the one who came to this forum to voice
your disapproval with the popularity of salsa music. Don't try to
turn this around and make it seem like you are being "victimized".
If want to get on your soap box to convey illogical arguments then
you better be prepared to have people respond to your fallacies.
You say "salsa is from the carribean" and
that it is "not from Latin America" but then you turn it
all around again and say it is music of Latinos in North America that
helps them "to feel more latin". So, according to your logic,
it is "carribean music" that helps North American latinos
to feel "more latin". Has the fallacy of your argument become
even more apparent to you now? You obviously lack knowledge on the
history of Salsa. I would suggest you do some research before construing
an opinion on the matter.
The comments about how Salsa is not popular in Latin
America is bordering on lunacy. Have you ever been to Columbia, Venezuela,
Panama? Obviously not. Salsa is considered a popular genre of music
in those countries. Some of the best soneros have come from those
countries. In fact, Columbia is going through a Salsa renaissance
at the moment.
Have you ever been to Japan and Europe and witnessed
the ever-growing Salsa culture in those countries? I have and I was
amazed at how salsa music is embraced and loved in those countries.
Both Japan and Europe are surging with salsa bands and clubs. You
clearly are speaking from a standpoint of complete ignorance by making
the claim that salsa is not popular in these countries. I recommend
that you travel to these countries and find out for yourself instead
of making erroneous and ill-informed statements on the matter.
Your claim that you are "tired of Latinos being
lumped together" and yet do exactly the same thing when it comes
to describing Latinos in North America. No one in this discussion
is making any black and white statements of Latino culture, with the
exception of you.
If Mexico really does have an emerging and identifiable
middle-class and that it is on the road to economic prosperity then
why do you continue to have a mass exodus of Mexicans leaving the
country? Mexico is a country that has one of the worst crime rates
in Latin America, it is so bad that even famous actors and musicians
have decided to leave the country because they fear for their safety.
Rich and affluent individuals are being kidnapped in broad daylight
and are being held for ransom.
Every country has its good and bad attributes. Please
don't try to paint your country as a modern-day utopia because there
is no such thing in this world. Canada may not have the same problems
as Mexico but nonetheless it does have significant issues and matters
that need to be addressed just like every other nation.
Argentina would not necessarily be in the economic
chaos that it is in today if it were not for the fact its goverment
subservience to the austere mandates of the International Monetary
Fund and the World Bank - both of which are U.S. political and economic
instruments. This is a scenario that is very common throughout Latin
America.
In regards to your statements about the Zapatistas,
it is hard for the indigenous population of Mexico to have any once
of self-determination when they are being brutally murdered on an
ongoing basis by the Mexican military. No one is saying that they
must "rule the country" (don't worry, your privileges are
not being threatened); I was merely making the argument that they
have as much right to participate in the Mexican democratic process
as do the other sectors of society. You do believe in democracy don't
you? Some of your statments seem to indicate that you favour a plutocracy.
Finally, if you don't like salsa music then don't
listen to it or don't go to clubs that play it. That is your choice
in a free society. No one is holding a gun to your head. I don't like
Latin rock but unlike you I don't go around criticizing individuals
who may be fans of that genre of music. I am too mature for that.
I do realize that everyone has divergent musical tastes. I respect
that AND so should you. Grow up -- Francisco.
April 24, 2002 -- Heidy's
e-mail
I am Colombian and I agree with most of what Heidy
says. I have been in Canada for 2 years and I love this country and
I am grateful for the opportunites it has given me. But I find it
difficult to change the stereotypes not only Canadians have but that
Latin Canadians have of my country.
Many Latin Canadians have many stereotypes of their parents' countries.
Look, I am not white, but I worked hard and became successful in Colombia.
I earned more money in Colombia than in Canada, even though I came
from a poor family. I find the Latin-Canadian community lacking in
eduaction, culture and sophistication. Of course, there are people
who are "corriente" and ordinary in Colombia. But in Canada,
they seem to make up the majority of Latin people here. Many Latin
events, Latin newspapers and periodicals (i.e. Picante Express, etc.,
), beauty pageants (Miss legs) are examples of this. Latin musicians
(except a few excellent ones), journalists, TV personalities who could
have never made it in their own countries, have opportunities because
we have multiculturalism. One Latin Canadian girl said Latin Canadians
speak better Spanish than Latin people in their own countries. You
have to explain that one to me. I guess an example would be the Spanish
newspapers in Toronto with all the spelling errors. I am not a snob.
But you could you imagine if you are Canadian or American and you
go to Colombia, and all the Canadians there are into pro wrestling,
tractor pulls and watch Jerry Springer at night and all Colombian
people think Canada and all Canadians are like this.
It is great that you have become successful and educated
in Canada. But you should speak about what you only know. Just because
you come from Ecuador or El Salvador doesn't make you an expert on
Colombia or Mexico. And please don't make blanket statements about
Latin countries or Latin people. I hate when Latin people from the
smaller, less affluent Latin countries try to unite Latin people in
Canada, when they don't even know my country. It's like if Portugal
spoke for the European Union. I am not oppressed, thank you very much.
People are very surprised to know most Colombians
in Colombia have never heard of Sonora Carruseles. You see, what people
think is Latin culture is different from the reality. Most people
in Colombia in don't dance LA or New York style salsa because it is
a foreign thing for them, not because of a lack of interest in Salsa.
Salsa is more popular in Colombia than in New York or LA. Also, Brittney
Spears may be popular in some Latin countries, but it is not the only
music they listen to. In fact, Britney Spears is more popular in Canada
or Chile than it is in Colombia or Mexico. Colombian and Mexican music
are strong and independent, they might have a lot of influences from
America, but it is still Latin music. Even in the Grammy Latin awards,
they classify salsa, merengue as Tropical music, it is not really
music that is popular all throught out Latin America. Why should all
Latin people listen to Gran Combo? First of all, it is an old group
and they come from Puerto Rico. Why should all Latin people listen
to Puerto Rican music ?, if we have our own music. Please think of
Latin America as a kind of European Union, where there are many distinct
and different cultures and countries -- Alex
April 25, 2002 -- reply
to Alex
Hello Alex, you made some interesting statements in
this discussion.
1.) "I find the Latin-Canadian community lacking
in eduaction, culture and sophistication."
2.) "...there are people who are "corriente"
and ordinary in Colombia. But in Canada, they seem to make up the
majority of Latin people here."
3.) "Many Latin events, Latin newspapers and
periodicals (i.e. Picante Express, etc., ), beauty pageants (Miss
legs) are examples of this."
4.) "I am not a snob." (comment: Denial
is wonderful isn't?)
It is interesting that say that you are not a snob
when the majority of your statements clearly illustrate the exact
opposite. Your classist commentary is indicative of the many shallow
individuals who become newly affluent and consequently decide to look
down upon everyone else who is not an identifiable member of the "well
to do" classes. Here in Canada we call it the syndrome of being
"nouveau" rich.
5.) "...please don't make blanket statements
about Latin countries or Latin people."
6.) "I hate when Latin people from the smaller,
less affluent Latin countries try to unite Latin people in Canada..."
7.) "Please think of Latin America as a kind
of European Union, where there are many distinct and different cultures
and countries."
Alex, your attempt to educate and prevent a monolithic
generalization of Latin people and countries has somewhat failed.
In attempting to make it clear that every Latin country is different
you have contradicted your beliefs of cultural diversity and uniqueness
by generalizing and stereotyping North American Latino culture into
the black and white framework that you so despise.
Latin Canadians are a very diverse and complex group.
It appears from your statements that you have only gained a minimal
perspective on this matter. You have made vacuous and ignorant comments
about Latin Canadians when you say that the majority of us are composed
of ordinary simpletons that lack culture, education, and sophistication.
Let me ask you something, before you "made it"
in Columbia did you and your family lack culture, education, and sophistication??
Since you were not rich back then were you an individual with "corriente"
tendencies?? Are you really that shallow to think that only wealth
can bestow you with these kinds of qualities? I don't know if you
know this but rich people can lack culture, education, and sophistication.
When you speak of Latin Canadians, are you solely
referring to the community in Toronto or all the other communities
across Canada? Montreal? Winnipeg? Edmonton? Calgary? Vancouver? Did
you arrive to these outlandish conclusions by visiting every Latin
community in all these cities?
How can you justify making such nonsensical observations
about Latin Canadians when you have only been in this country for
such a brief amount of time?
Do you even know which group was the first mass wave
latino immigration to Canada? And if so, do you know for what reasons??
Well, let me educate you on this matter. It was the Chileans who were
the first large-scale wave of immigrants who arrived in Canada. They
arrived in the early 1970s. We came here by the thousands. The overwhelming
majority came to Canada to escape the heinous military dictatorship
of that murderer Pinochet.
The composition of the Chileans that came in that
year ranged from intellectuals and artists to members of parliament
and union delegates. We fled from the tyrannical, U.S. sponsored,
military fascist regime that overthrew our democratically-elected
goverment in 1973.
This short narrative is one of the many endless components
that make up Latino history in Canada. I suggest that you educate
yourself abit more on the diverse nature and attributes of Latin Canadians
before making any further intellectually-bankrupt observations.
With regards to the issue of Salsa music, no one has
proclaimed it to be THE music of Latin America. No one is trying to
unite anyone under one flag. Personally, I don't particularly appreciate
the superficial elitism of so many newly-arrived latinos or latino
university students that come here to study English. Just because
you cannot dance Salsa it doesn't give you the right to put down others
who can and who love Salsa music.
I, like many thousands of Latin Canadians, dislike it when Latin people
not born in North America try to make such blanket statements as "the
Latin-Canadian community [is] lacking...education, culture and sophistication"
or that "corriente and ordinary" people "seem to make
up the majority of Latin people" in Canada.
Alex, I request you don't make blanket statements
about Latin Canadian people and Latin Canadian culture. Please think
of Latin Canadians as a mosaic, where there are many distinct cultural
and geographical attributes. Francisco
April 27, 2002 -- Response
I guess Latin Canadians do know a lot about Latin
America, when they write that Mexico is part of South America and
they spell Colombia like Columbia, like British Columbia.
Actually, Columbia is type of a Rumba, an Afro-Cuban dance, one of
the direct ancestors of Salsa (I did some research about Salsa).
Franciso, it is unfortunate the you share the patronizing,
condescending, paternalist, attitudes of many Americans. You tell
me to grow up, treating me as a child and you as
the adult. I mean that is the way many people in the US have treated
the people in Latin America. The US is the scolding father and we
the Latin America as simple disobedient children, colonizer and the
colonized. You view Latin America as soley made up of wealthy white
landlords and landless peasants wearing panchos. Of course, these
types of people do exist, but make up a small percentage of people.
It is like saying that all Canadians live in igloos. You view any
person who has become successful in any Latin country with suspicion.
This person must have bribed some government officals or his parents
must have made a wealthy donation to a university. The truth is nowadays
there is much social mobility in Mexico. I know from taking sociology
100 at UofT, most of the wealth of Canada is still held by a few rich,
white, English (not French speaking) men.
I haven't painted Mexico as a utopia, I just don't
view my country attitude is really another form of racism. These countries
exist of only a few corrupt white landlords who don't like to get
their hands dirty and poor, native people who are too stupid to know
they are exploited unless someone from the West tells them so. Mexico
has treated its Native people very badly and so has Canada.
Yes, I believe in democracy. For democracy to work,
most people in the society must benefit. Most people in Mexico are
not landless peasants or fat cat white landlords. They are middle
class people who are working hard to survive and better themselves.
Another point, people who immigrate to Canada from Mexico are not
poor people. The
mass of exodus of people you describe are people who are middle class.
Canada and the United states don't accept economic refugees anymore.
If these people had such a privledged life in Mexico, why would they
come here? They come here because they can make more money here. The
peasants in Mexico can't afford to buy the plane ticket to
Canada, so they try to enter the United States illegally. Mexico is
corrupt and dangerous, particulary Mexico city, although I think you
are confusing Mexico with other countries in your examples, a common
mistake among Latin Canadians. Outside Mexico,
the cities are as safe as any big American city and much safer than
any South American city. Have you been to Mexico? I am sure that poor
Chileans who were against Pinochet didn't have the luxury of being
able to come to Canada.
Well, I have been to Chile and lived there for a couple
of years. You seem to be proud of the prosperity Santiago is now experiencing.
Isn't it amazing how the Latin country is doing so well? Or is it
just more white people exploiting native people. And perhaps there
is not a middle class? Or perhaps the reason it is doing so well economically
is because they got rid of few bleeding heart liberals and well to
do socialists like you.
My final point. I don't see the contradiction Salsa
being from the Carribean and it being a way of for Latin Canadians
or Latinos in the United States to express their identity. Colombia
and Venezuela have significant parts of their countries in the Carribean.
So,
I stand by my idea that Salsa is from the Carribean. Salsa is not
popular in all Latin countries. I think there are more purely salsa
clubs in Toronto than there are in Santiago, Chile. What are the names
of some famous Chilean salsa groups and how do you dance salsa Chilean
style? But most what are most Chilean Canadians going to dance in
Canada? La Ley? No. Salsa. Salsa becomes for them a way to to hold
on to something Spanish, although it is about as Chilean as American
baseball -- Heidy
April 27, 2002 -- Response
to Francisco
I feel comfortable making the generalization the Latin
community is pretty homogenous and monolithic. First, the Latin community
is very small in Canada. Second, most Latin
countries are far away from Latin America. Therefore, most Latin Canadians
only have a vague idea what their countries are like or many can't
speak or read like Spanish they do English. The Mexican community
in California and Texas still remains remarkably Mexican because of
the amount of people and the proximity to Mexico. Therefore, many
Latin people share many of the attitudes that Canadians have of Latin
America; that Latin American people are all poor, that the men are
really sexist, that they only like to make love and dance. So, many
are ashamed to speak Spanish. Other Latin people use and exploit this
stereotype. Many Latin men or women know that some Canadians think
they are passionate and sexy and they run with it. They pretend to
know how to dance salsa even though they came from countries where
salsa is not the norm.
So, most Latin Canadians accept American images of
Hispanic or Latino life. Because there is nothing else. American movies
mix elements of what they think Latin culture into movies. American
movies that place in Ecuador or Mexico have 1950's Cuban orchestras
as if there they are giving a taste of the local culture. European
actresses like Penelope Cruz make a careers out of playing stereotyped
Latin women in Blow and Women on Top. No wonder many in Canada think
people in Brazil speak Spanish and think Salsa is from Spain.
Juan Formell, the leader of the perhaps the greatest
Latin music band, Los Van Van, has stated that Salsa is not just music
(because it is basically Cuban/Puerto Rican music), it is a way for
Latin Americans in the United States (I would add in Canada too) to
communicate with themselves. But the Latin music in the nightclubs
in Toronto is not what Latin people listen in Latin countries. My
Colombian friends and I love Salsa, but the music they play in Babalus
is not the salsa most Colombians listen to and they way Latin Canadians
and Canadians dance is very different than in Colombia. Latin people
who come from Central America or countries from Peru or Ecuador have
become official spokesmen for salsa in Canada, and hence Latin culture
in Canada. These people could have never had the same position in
their countries because its not their culture and probably a lack
of interest. Central America and Peru and Ecuador are beautiful places
and have wonderful people. But hotbeds of Salsa? I don't think so.
I know someone is going to write in saying that he or she knows of
such and such group or musician from from Central America or Peru
or Argentina. Okay, most of these people have studied in Cuba, New
York or Colombia or with people from this countries.
I want to support Heidy on another point. I am studying
at a school where there are many people from Japan and Europe. I did
an informal survey. Most people from Japan and Europe have a vague
idea of what Latin music is, but they can't tell about a salsa from
a merengue. 80% of them have never seen salsa dancing. And none of
them could tell me the name of a salsa group or song. One girl knew
who Tito Puente was though. Is that what you mean by popular? A few
thousand people in a country of 100 millon doesn't make it popular.
But compare this situation to Cuba and Puerto Rico.
So, excuse if I find Latin Canadian culture a little
"intellectually bankrupt". And perhaps I shouldn't judge
all Latin Canadian people like this, but it is hard not too. I have
never even thought of myself as Latin or Hispanic until I came here.
The Canadian Latin "mosaic" is really more of a quasi Latin
melting pot. Mexicans and Argentinians are expected to dance salsa
and to accept Salsa as part of their identity. How do you
Chilean Canadians express their Chilean identity or mosaic identity
apart from the occassional an anti-Pinochet rally? Maybe they dance
salsa or they go to a Jennifer Lopez movie. Latin Canadian culture
is just a version of Latin America culture in the United States, a
melting pot of different Latin cultures and American (US) culture
with no care from where they came from. Corriente doesn't have anything
to do with money or class. If you don't know read Shakespeare or Gabriel
Garcia Marquez, doesn't make you corriente. But if you talk like "groseros",
get into fights, are rude to people, wear gold chains with red, orange
suits, are married to 2 or more women that might qualify you. Canadian
and American people use expressions like trash to describe people
without people thinking they are classcist.
P.S. I know how to dance Salsa. Just because I don't
dance it like Francisco Vasquez doesn't mean I can't dance. The Vasquez
brothers are Mexicans, or Chicanos, who learned Salsa dancing in California
not Mexico. They were first exposed in Salsa dancing
in LA not Guadalajura, Mexico. Alex
May 12, 2002 -- a citizen
of earth's perspective
I'm writing in response to the comments made by Heidy
and Alex. I begin by asking a question: how many hispanic or second
generation hispanics people do you really know and have come in contact
with to make such comments? Are you gathering your information from
stories you've heard or from things that you've read? or from maybe
the 2000 or 3000 hispanics you might have seen in a club? and if so,
do you believe everything you're told or everything you read? The
last I heard, which was about four to five years ago, there was over
50.000 hispanics and sencond generation hispanics in canada. A very
large percentage of this number live in Ontario. How many of these
people have you talk to or even seen where they live? What gives you
the right to call people stupid, unsophisticated, or whatever? The
things you write about produce alot of negative energy. Maybe all
of you should take a look in the mirror because whatever you think
and say about Hispanics or people in general are for sure,and I mean
for sure, characteristics of one's self. Being an academic does not
make you educated. It MIGHT get you a good job if your lucky but it
does not make you educated or ophisticated. Real life begins after
you leave school. Like my abuela use to say"SI NO TIENES NADA
BUENO QUE DECIR NO DIGAS NADA."("if you have nothing good
to say don't say anything.") Yes I'm hispanic. >From where?
It's not important. Maybe when you detach your self from your mask
and your titles, you'll think of a way to make constructive comments
not destructive.
Help your people, don't tear them down. If you call a child stupid
a few times they'll start believing it. Do your comments make you
feel educated or sophisticated? if so, you
have alot to learn. The only thing that can make you sophisticated
is wisdom and they don't teach in any school. wisdom comes from life
and the way you live it; not from your diploma or material things
that you poses. I commend you for gettin an education but don't think
for one second that it makes you better than others. Further more,
an education does not equals success. What you do for your family,
and other people in this life time will determin your sucess.
MAY THE BLESSINGS BE OOOOH, and on the salsa thing, it does not come
from anywhre you say it does. Salsa begins in Africa and it ends in
Africa. All we did, (and by that I mean Latinos or whatever lable
you prefer) was add our language to it, and infuse it with other styles
like jazz which isn't our culture either. Salsa it's been around long,
and I mean long, before Latin America and the rest of the world got
thiers hands on a pair of congas. Do the research. If can't go to
Africa go to your nearest public library lets give credit where credit
is do. If you want to maintain a piece of your culture while away
from your country, then you should be listening to folk music that
comes from your country of origin. Dont be hard on second generation
hispanics because they speak the language poorly or have bad grammar.
They are second generation after all -- Shadow of papichulo ent.
May 22, 2002
First of all, I'm sick of people from Colombia or Argentina or wherever
else that think they are too good or educated or sophisticated to
be 'unidos' with the rest of the latinos such as Salvadoreans or Gutemaltecos.
Yes, we all are from distinct countries, but we are still very much
alike. Growing up in Canada whre we have all Latin American countries
together is a blessing. What we are doing is making are own identity
as latin-canadians. That is a good thing. For example, I am Puerto
Rican, and I love my culture, PERO, I love to eat pupusas(salvadorian),
to dance to cumbia from argentina, and drink tequila and listen to
rancheras like a true mexican. All because I have lived among these
people in Toronto. I consider myself lucky. If I lived in New York,
where its mostly Puerto Rican people, I would probably have a very
different attitude.
Lastly, don't place so much imoprtance on being educated.
In general, latinos relate more to arts, music, and professional sports.
We do amazing in these areas, because thats the sort of people we
are. Such as, in general, asians are highly academic people, but their
culture might lack in other aspects. Speaking for all the true latinos
out there, somos orgullosos de ser lo que somos. Wether we are dancers,
singers, musicians, baseball players, soccer players, Tony Montana
wannabes, deejays, janitors, whatever. We are always PROUD -- A.C.Maldonado
August 4, 2002 -- Latino
Discussion
Hey people ima latino-canadian and i am no different
from my familia back in Nicaragua or my friends from the Dominican
or n e other country.
i think
we should put things like this we are one LATINOS thats it AMEN!!!
-- king_delinquente
August
24, 2002 -- The Latino Discussion
Wow!
19 pages of discussion. It's terrific. It's what I wish took place
more often in Toronto hangouts among friends and strangers. Above
all I wish the mass media included such diversity of opinion. (Where
are the communist, socialist.to fascist newspapers?) Bravo to Rose
for posting all this, even if she can't quite grasp what got it all
started, perhaps more so because she can't. So bless you Rose.
A few
comments, of course.
If you
want to find oppression, you don't need to look at the bottom. It
suffices to look at the top. Who controls the banks, big businesses,
government and other loci of power? If there is a pattern, e.g. Canada,
males, then you can safely conclude that discrimination, in the form
of unconscious, subtle and overt systemic, oppression exists. To say
that there are poor whites in Canada, would not negate that systemic
discrimination against non Anglo-Saxons and non whites has existed,
exists and results, among other disadvantages, in increased poverty
for these groups. And if you point to an exception, e.g. Premier of
BC, or your successful Somali neighbour, that only proves the rule.
The odds that they had to overcome were far greater than those a white
Anglo Saxon male 4th generation Canadian would. Why are some so uncomfortable
admitting that? Perhaps because we are tired of being singled out.
We just want to fit in. If you don't want to talk about class, would
you agree to talk about power, about who has it?
I am
guessing that it is difficult , as written above, for some to read
that their country is oppressive, poor... Especially if the effects
of this oppression, as defined by some above, was not true to your
experience. We tend to identify very strongly with the country(ies)
we call home. And we naturally want our experience of that country
to be as accepted as real. It is after all. Also our nationalism tends
to get stronger when we are away from home. I particularly resent
having a rich and relatively powerful country (this forum is based
in a what is presumed to be rich, invited to G8 meetings etc.country,
that's all I mean by that) tell me what a "poorer" country
is all about. It gets my defences up. With one fell swoop, it negates
the soil that, with much love, beauty, intelligence, poetry and joy,
with such riches, produced me. But I believe, and I hope you will
agree, that we need to bring up these discrepancies. They exist. Why?
Are some
countries more deserving, are some people more hardworking, less ignorant?
Rather than quibble about degree and who is to blame, why not say
that the elimination of oppression in all its forms, where ever it
is found, is a worthy goal? AND, and this an important 'and', that
we must allow the defining of oppression to be done by every group
for itself. Cause we ain't gonna agree. And here's the rub. Who defines
the group? Can it be done by geography, rural versus urban, skin colour,
education, language? This is the big challenge. And it is evidenced
by the above debates. "I know the real [fill in the blank with
nation, country, socio-cultural identity.]." Hmm. Is there not
enough room for all of us to breathe? And we have to remember this:
do the powerful white men of Canada go around debating their identity?
Who has made us into the self-conscious other? Again, we are brought
back to power. If it were more equally shared, a lot of this might
be dissolved.
I just
have to insert this, in the hopes that it will make some feel better,
and it can't help but make you feel worse at the same time: the IMF
and World Bank control Canada too. It was when threatened with a poor
credit rating (which would make us most unattractive to foreign investors
and banks) that the Federal Liberal Government, developed the Canada
Health and Social Transfer (CHST) bill, enacted in 1996. First, a
reduction of a total $7.4 billion in transfer payments to provinces
over the first two years. This would necessarily impose cuts to provincial
expenditures. In addition, the CHST eliminated cost sharing, replacing
it with block funding. Provinces faced with increased costs could
no longer turn to the federal government to recoup 50% of any additional
spending. This eliminated an important incentive for provinces to
increase social services spending. The CHST also lumped together funding
for social assistance, education and health care without making any
stipulations for allocation. Nothing was protected. I will stop here.
The outcomes are experienced under the Provincial Tories of Ontario
and Alberta. Enacted locally, but it began with the IMF and the World
Bank. We too are weak.
Let's
not perpetuate naco, barrio (I am stunned that no one used Fresa!
Opps). Let's try to drop the labels. We only get muddled as we try
to explain them.
And finally,
do I have to say that I am brown skinned, from Nicaragua, an engineer,
have lived in many countries, am at home in four cultures and languages,
that my grandmother is Mexican working class, my grandfather Brazilian,
middle class, the other grandfather from France, a socialist intellectual
and his wife upper class from Algeria? (not true:)) Do I have to tell
you who I am in order to have a legitimate voice? Surely that only
obfuscates what I am saying. It is sad when our arguments cannot stand
alone. When they are deemed legitimate only by the label placed upon
the speaker. Self determination, yup. But let's not slip into an I
am more XYZ than you are discussion, I am from this place and so I
know etc. It's endless. We live within a diversity of truths.
While
I said that it is terrific that such an open discussion is taking
place, I have to say that my first reaction upon reading Heidy was
disbelief. (And so I kept on reading.) I always knew that there were
people who looked down on others based on education, manners, the
list goes on. But I always thought people knew to keep those opinions
to themselves or among friends who shared them. At the very least
they knew it was impolite and that some might disagree and take offence.
I wonder what it will take for Heidy to see herself as some others
here have. I wonder if she ever will. Perhaps, we must simply let
her be. Enough air. And when I meet her, I will keep on walking (possibly
mumble a comment to my friends), just as she did when she met Plaza
Flamingo's clients. I am no better after all.
Nicole
(but a rose by any other name.)
September
23, 2002 -- I'm puzzled
My parents
came to Canada from Ecuador (the smallest country in South America)
in 1972. I do not speak English with a Spanish accent and I can both
read and write fluently in Spanish. I have read most of the discussions
and cannot believe what some people have to say (especially my Mexican
amiga Heidi).
A message to everyone: Being white, brown, black (or
whatever other colour God has blessed you with) don't we all bleed?
- and isn't it always red? What's up with all this blue blood attitude?
Anyway, I am a Canadian - but before being Canadian
- I am Ecuadorian. I am proud of my country, my music and my distinctive
features that tell the world that I'm latina and I'm aware that not
everyone is the same. For me, culture is what I've been raised with
- I've danced to salsa, cumbia, merengue and sanjuanitos for as long
as my memory can go back (it never mattered that cumbias were from
my neighbouring Colombia, etc.) - that is for me, my culture - my
arroz con menestra, my humitas, my ayacas, my elaborate family gatherings,
our traditions (i.e., like celebrating December 24th instead of the
25th) etc.
I say that if you can dance to latin music whether
it be salsa, merengue, bachatas (whatever the case may be) then do
so without criticizing and just have fun. I think that it's more than
just our music that makes our "culture" anyway. I went to
live in Ecuador for 2 and a half years in 1987 and couldn't get accustomed
to many things - but I do love the country - yes we are a third world
country, yet, the country has so many natural resources and is quite
beautiful - I guess it all depends on where we get used to living,
hence the reason I came back to Toronto.
About Latin Americans being of low class - class is
not something that money can buy - so it doesn't matter whether your
born white/brown/black/rich or poor. We have doctors, lawyers, Engineers
in our countries that have made a name for themselves and have come
from "poor" families. Instead of knocking them, we should
applaud them. About latin men being rude etc., I think we can't judge
all because of a few. I have come across some rude people in my time
and from diverse nationalities - so we can't really generalize. I
have four brothers who are all wonderful "latin men" - so
it would be unfair to them and others if I sat here and said - latin
men are #$%^&* - just can't.
Anyway people - God bless and love eachother. South
American, Central American, North American - it doesn't matter - it
matters that we all treat eachother with respect and that we try to
keep "our culture", whatever we deem that to be, intact.
Que Diss
los bendiga. Cristina
September
23, 2002 -- Latino Debate
To Papichulo
(I hope this word is not indicative of your vocabulary in Spanish),
King Delinquente, A.C. Maldonado and Nicole. Papichulo, You are say
that you are hispanic, but it doesn't matter where from. Why not?
Are all Latinos the same? Is Cuba not the same as Argentina. If you
say that they are the same you are negating their differences. These
countries couldn't be more different. Cuban culture has a strong African
influence and Argentina an Italian one. Maybe you want to say we have
the same soul or spirit, but then why do you only limit it to Hispanic,
why not include Chinese people?
Salsa
might have begun in Africa (then developed in Cuba of course), but
how did Salsa end in Africa? But the newest
development in Salsa is in Cuba, Timba.
A.C.
Maldonado,
Latin people can't be highly academic people? Don't sell your people
short.
Nicole,
What are you talking about? Did you enter the wrong website? But thank
you for your York University, Deepak Chopak, Oprah Winfresque explanation
of why there are poor people or countries. Of course, much of what
you said about IMF and World Bank is true. But of course, you are
just repeating what people who know what they are talking about have
already said (It seems amazing to me that these people who demonstrate
against IMF and Latin American, can't name one city in these countries).
But what does have to do with corriente people and Salsa? How does
the IMF or World Bank make people get into fights in bars, hang out
on the corner of Tropical Corner near bathurst and bloor.
Where does individual responsibility come in?
I am
sure most educated Canadian people look down on people who attend
WWF professional wrestling. Does that make them snobs? For most people
it is violent, stupid, sexist and appeals to lowest common denonminator.
For me some of these Latin clubs are like this. Can you imagine if
you are an Canadian in Colombia and the place where most Canadians
hang out is a pro wrestling place or a seedy bar and most Colombians
think wrestling is
Canadian and the people are typical of Canadians? First, of, pro wrestling
is American and the people are not representive of all Canadians.
Latin music in Latin nightclubs is not very Latin. You can't hear
this kind of music if you go to Latin America. If Plaza Flamingo were
a nightclub in Colombia, nobody would go because they are better places
to go to, with nicer people and you wouldn't have to get in a fight.
But Latin places attract Canadians for their exoticness. But too bad
they associate the people (Latin hillbillies, Latin rednecks, etc.)
who are there
with all Latin people. Heidy
November
11 , 2002 -- Latinos educados
Rosie, Interesting view you have of those poor latin
americans who come here as refugees or happen to be poor. Truly, unbelievable.
Poverty must beget violence, vulgarity, etc... but unfounded prejudice
seems to be more your kind of thing.
I am Latin American and learned the bit I know how
to dance in the bars of latin american uneducated, poor people who
happen to be better dancers than any one I've seen yet at a class.
This is not to say there aren't excellent dancers in the hygenic version
that everyone is trying to put through as salsa, but it isn't the
way latin-americans dance salsa.
If I have to hear another uneducated non-latin american
make sweeping statements about the poor of latin america... well,
I don't know what I'll do... seems you people never stop. Perhaps
you should be reminded that without them, you wouldn't even have the
original salsa to base your website on.
As far as Momentos, the dancing is great, but there
is very little salsa... the best dancing you'll find there is Tambo
(sp?), a Venezuelan dance that again originated from those poor, uneducated
people you can run from.
You said you innocently wrote the original post...
innocence does not justify your prejudice. Some of the best people
in Latin America happen to be uneducated and poor because those more
educated individuals control the economy and have been exploiting
those poor uneducated people for a very long time.
some people say snob, i'd say you are just plain ignorant.
Cecilia
November
11 , 2002 -- NAFTA
1. Mexico has more in common with South America than
with North America.
2. NAFTA is an economic treaty that does not in itself
imply that Mexico is North America. As far as Latin Americans are
concerned, Mexico is partly in North America and partly in central
america AND is part of Latin America.
3. English North Americans don't see Mexico as part
of North America, neither does the rest of the world. See some company
annual reports and government reports to see where Mexico fits.
4. If NAFTA is what you are shielding behind... not
to worry with the FTAA comes into effect and, not only Mexico, but
the rest of Latin America also become subservient to the United States,
you won't even have that. Cecilia
November
12 , 2002 -- Cecilia's e-mail
Cecilia, I think your anger should be directed at
me, not a Rose. Well, I am Latin American. I am Mexican, born and
educated there. I also have a degree in Latin American studies from
an university in the United States. But probably that doesn't mean
much to you. It is true what you say that the origins of Salsa do
come from the lower classes. Most of the rhythms associated with Latin
America do from the African communites in Latin countries which were
generally poorer and discriminated against. But probably these great
salsa dancers were from the Latin Carribean rather than South America.
I have been to South American and there are not a lot of good salsa
dancers like Puerto Rico or Cuba, except for Cali in Colombia.
I think you should read my e-mails more carefully.
My position is more nuanced than your anger would suggest -- Heidy
November
12 , 2002 -- Heidy's response #2
Cecilia, I am sure Mexico (but probably less than
you think though) has a lot in common with South America. But these
designations are geographical not cultural. India and China are part
of Asia, but it doesn't mean they have similiar cultures. Mexico is
part of Latin America. There is not doubt about that. Mexico is also
part of North America.
Do you know any atlases that say that Mexico is not part of North
America? Central America is used for the countries that are between
Mexico and Colombia. It is a region. Even if you believe Mexico is
part of Central America, Central America is not a continent. Case
closed.
Cecilia, what part of Mexico is part of North America
and what part of Mexico is Central? Is it jealousy that causes you
to say this? What do you English North Americans mean anyways? If
many people think it is that way, does it make it true? Many North
American people think Flamenco comes from Latin America, should we
believe them? Most people think the cold causes the flu, should we
believe them? Where are these company and government reports you talk
about? Of course, they could be wrong too.
The President of the United States, George Bush, was surprised that
there were so many black people living in Brazil, when he first went
there. Maybe we should believe him.
I am Mexican. Most Canadians ask me if I am Spanish.
Should I believe them and start calling myself Spanish? I am from
Mexico but I speak Spanish. A Canadian speaks English
but he/she is not English.
I am also an American. Canadian people don't believe
when I say this, but this is true. Canadians are Americans. Chileans
are Americans. Colombians are Americans. People from the United States
say it's because they don't have a name for people from the United
States (they do in Spanish though, a stupid invented word). And why
do they call the United States of America? Mexico is a United States
of America too (we are not conceited as the U.S.A, but the name of
our country is the United States of Mexico or it could be America
too) Brazil is a United States of America too. Think, don't accept.
November
17, 2002 -- Geography and Mexico
Jealousy?
You make a lot of assumptions... first off, I am South American...
but in the South America I remember as a child we didn't dance salsa,
merengue or cumbia. As a child in South America I met a lot of people
who thought the way you think... I grew up among them and know them
well. That center-of-the-spanish-empire attitude that lets people
forget that even if they are from upper classes and educated they
haven't been doing that great for their country (NAFTA or no NAFTA).
Not the best of the pack! Mediocrity is rampant and that "we
are not like them" attitude towards the lower classes that makes
them sell their people to the first bidder. The history of the upper
(and middle) classes in Latin America is nothing to be proud of!
Geographic
classifications are fine for an atlas, but remember that what you
started to discuss were diferences among the Latin countries. These
are not geographical but social/cultural. You cannot base an argument
on social/cultural diferences among nations on the very shaddy concept
of having Mexico part in Central America and part in North America.
I would
go one step forward and take on the issue of jealousy... why would
I be jealous? Is it so important to you that Mexico is part of NAFTA?
Does that perhaps reflect an inferiority complex? You must at least
agree that Mexico is not totally in North America and that it is very
different than Canada and the US. So, why the need to be part of North
America? Why argue about a line that crosses somewhere in the middle
of Mexico just so that you can call yourself a North American like
the English/French speakers up north? What complex can you have about
your hispanic heritage that would make you want to be something other
than you are?
The irony
of it all is that pushing to classify lower-class latin americans
as less than you, you are putting yourself in the class of less than
North American. Racism, classism has that effect and it is yet to
be seen if after realizing what you are doing you'll continue to strive
to be the middle road between the North Americans you hope will accept
you as one of them and the South Americans you despise. It is a tricky
one -- Cecilia
November
17, 2002 -- second part from not reading both responses at the same
time
I have apologized to Rose for directing my anger towards
her. One thing though... that you can think the way you think about
things, with no anger, only makes it worse. Just because you feel
comfortable with your belief doesn't make it any less unreasonable/despicable.
I have a degree on studies of the region (latin america,
spain and portugal) from a canadian university... so, what is your
point? You were going to claim to be more knowledgable not only because
you are Mexican born but also because of a degree?! In that university
you went to in the US, did they tell you your diploma was going to
win arguments for you? I swear education is lost on some! -- Cecilia
December
15, 2002 -- response to the now famous Heidy and co.
Hey you all! I just wanted to say that you are all
very smart and educated people. I have also argued, discussed and
meditated about these topics. I admit that many of you are right and
I can see,understand and respect your points of view. I do believe
though that we are missing a very important point.
I am from Mexico. I grew up loving and dancing to Michael Jackson
(yeah I know..heh), then I loved groups like Oasis, The Verve, spanish
rock bands like Caifanes and Cafe Tacuba and U2 and travelled to one
of my favorite places, London. I came to Canada and started liking
R&B and Hip Hop and then I loved it too. I have always love salsa
and cha cha cha. My point being I love dancing. I love music. I love
people. I love myself. If there's good music, I'll dance. If they're
cool people, I'll want to get to know them and hang out with them.
I know where I come from and who I am, regardless of my skin color,
nationality,etc. I might be more european than indian or viceversa
but I'm still hispanic. I don't care if you are uneducated, poor,
not sophisticated enough, or the king of the world. Although I think
it would be very interesting to trace all my ancestors I do believe
there is much more to people than that and I walk the talk. I believe
we should stop judging and start not only respecting but accepting
and caring... because thanks goodness we are all not the same and
that's what makes this a rich world.
Well that's all folks. Thanks for reading my little speech heh. Love,
live, care and have joy and.... FELIZ NAVIDAD!!!! -Alicia
December
24, 2002 -- To Heidi and Francisco,
Quite a debate you guys are carrying. You know, I
think it wouldnt hurt for both of you to check out Stats Canada website.
Youll find out some interesting details about our Latin American
community.
For starters, we find out that if Canadians know little
about our community, it is partly and understandably due to its small
proportion in this large Canadian ethnic and cultural mosaic. Unlike
our neighbors down south, Canadians would be expected to know more
about Asians, Middle Easterners and Europeans than Latin Americans.
I am not surprised.
Additionally, and this is in response to Heidis comments
about uneducated Latin Canadians, we find out from Stats Canada that
if most Canadian Latinos are uneducated, as Heidi puts it, it is
not because of their origins or socio-economic status, but it is simply
because of their age- most Latin Americans are young! (great characteristic
to have, but you cant expect an 18 yr old to commonly have a Phd,
right?)
Btw, I have to say that Heidis comments disappoint
me. I cant understand why such an apparently smart individual could
be so hostile to her own people, they call that in my field cannibalizing.
All I have to say is perdsnala que no sabe lo que hace
From a French Canadian Salvadorian Anglophone Graduate Student who
feels he never
knows enough (uneducated? YES! Always!) -- Jose
December
30, 2002 -- A Little About Salsa, Race and Ethnicity
Boy this one is mind boggling! I'm still trying to figure it all
out! I scanned through all the responses first and then went to the
original post and thought, "is this is what it's all about"?
What I read was a tease to start a debate. First of all, "speaking
spanish correctly" is frivolous. Why? Language is always evolving,
borrowing words from other languages or making up new ones that within
time will appear in the good ole dictionary! English is spoken differently
in many countries, yet you don't hear the ethnocentrism going around
like in the spanish communities. And you wonder why most of us are
still not powerful in many fields. Lack of unity is what killed most
of the indians and lack of unity or tolerance within the spanish (so
called for some) population is what's keeping most of us behind. Your
spanish language has arabic words, taino words and english words.
Not so pure huh? Sorry if I tainted it! Your english language has
spanish, german and a few taino words. Are the British or Canadians
making fun of the speech patterns of the Americans of the U.S.? Does
Heidi speak like a Spaniard or Mexican? Do I hear a th? Next:
Salsa is not from the Caribbean. It was birth in NYC by Blacks, Ricans,
Cubans and Jews out of the roots of El Son that came from Cuba whose
roots came from Africa, other elements like Jazz (african roots) and
various latin american rhythms. Yet one has to draw the line to determine
a true genre--like with Jazz. Yet today, many countries, east and
west, are exploring and experimenting with the New York sound and
making it their own. Niche is one example. Africa is exploring the
Son. Africando is another example. Why is no one b______g over pop
or rap? Next:
Call me Hispanic if you like, but don't call me latin. Latins are
Romanians, Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Latin Americans. But Hispanics
are a group that speak a common language, in this case, Spanish (so
called for some). I once was surprised to hear a Mexican guy who blantly
said to me, "Mexicans are Indians" those 20% 3 or 4th generation
caucasians think they represent me, but they don't! How many India
Maria's do you see on tv? Damn near 20% of them are all on tv! Caribbean
Myth: We are all equally black, spanish and indian: Truth: World Data:
Within the spanish speaking population there are many different races;
some race groups dominate the population more than others, depending
on the nation:
Mexico: 60% Mestizo, 30% Amerindian, white 9% and
other 1%
Argentina: 97% Spanish and Italian, 3% other
Costa Ricans: 94% white Salvadorians 90% Mestizo
Venezuela: Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Arab, German,
African and Amerindian.
Cuba: 51% Mulatto, 37 %white, 11% black and 1% Chinese.
Dominican Republic: 73% Mulatto, 16% white Peru 45%
Amerindian, 37% Mestizo, 15% white, black, Asian
Puerto Rico: 80.5% white, black 8% Amerindian 0.4%,
Asian 0.2%
What does it all mean. Nothing, because we should focus on who we
are first as individuals. The ability to be compasionate, non ethnocentric,
and the good old traditional Taino way of being a neighbor, "naboria
daca", is what made us a loving people. What money and fear can
do to some...let my soul never desire.
TO FRANCISCO: Your intelligence in combination with logic is the
beauty of a true being. Agreeing or disagreeing is not what matters.
What matters is the search for something without malice or shame that
will benefit, not one, but all.
Janemas, New York City
