February
2, 2003 -- Ongoing Discussion on Style, etc.
Dear Rose, I have been reading the discussions about salsa style (Ballroom
vs. Club, On 1 vs. on 2, Cuban vs. everything else etc.) with great
interest. The vehemence of the contributions shows just how passionate
people here in Toronto are about their salsa, and their dancing in
general. This is very laudable, but I could not help but feel, however,
that this passion has led to some narrowness of viewpoint on the part
of many of the contributors and that there is a tendency to see salsa
as some sort of a unique phenomenon rather than in the context of
dance in general. As a "gringo" whose prior dance interest
was centered on folk dance (as opposed to club dancing, ballroom,
jazz or modern dance) I thought I would offer what is, perhaps, a
different perspective on the issues in question.
At the heart of the study of folk dance and music is the concept of
"regional variation". The "success" of a particular
dance can be measured by the extent that it gains acceptance over
a wide geographic area including crossing political, ethnic and social
boundaries. The key to this success is almost invariably that the
elements of the dance (music and motifs) are adaptable to suit a wide
variety of cultures and individual customs and preferences as well
as the local movement "vocabularies" i.e. the dance is capable
of being "all things to all people".
Societies and individual communities are defined not only by language,
dialect, race and creed but by common elements such as what is considered
acceptable behaviour, body language (predominant ways of walking,
posture, gesticulation while conversing etc.), personal adornment
(make-up, jewellery etc.) and dress, which often is a visible expression
not only of one's individuality but of membership (either by birth
or by adoption) in a particular community. Even attitudes towards
moral and political issues (as well as music) are, to some extent,
a product of the community into which we were born or in which we
have consciously adopted membership. This is true even within a single
country in an urban setting as well a rural one ... witness the "Goths",
the Rastafarians, the Punkers, the earlier Beatniks and hippies and
even the business community with their standards of "business
attire - casual or formal" and "business-speak" etc.).
It is these "common elements" (and others), broadly speaking,
which largely define a culture or a sub-culture and represent the
"barrier" that a foreign dance must overcome to gain acceptance
by the community. .
So ... how does this relate to dance and the discussions at hand ?
Simply, that in order for a dance to be truly accepted and assimilated
by groups (other than the cultural group that originated the dance)
it must be adaptable to local stylistic and attitudinal norms. Frequently,
this adaptation is made with no (or minimal) reference to how the
dance was performed elsewhere, including its point of origin. The
dance, once assimilated, is integrated into the general dance culture
of the area and, in the process, is made "acceptable" and
stylistically compatible with the dances that were there before (i.e.
the "familiar" ones) . Within the context of a single folk
dance done in a relatively small area, the local variants can be so
pronounced that it becomes virtually impossible for a guy from one
village to dance with a girl from another unless the dance is reduced
down to the basic, common, elements. The inhabitants of every village
are typically, however, totally convinced that their version of the
dance is the "right" one and that all others, to some extent,
do it "wrong" or don't have the right feel for it. They
still consider it the same dance though. folk dance collectors routinely
encounter this attitude, which has also found expression in your email
discussion groups about salsa.
This process occurs with social (urban) dances as well. The waltz
and tango, for instance. The original version of the waltz that gained
prominence in the 19th century was the Viennese, characterized by
exuberance, gaiety and a sense of smooth flight around the dance floor.
As it moved from area to area, it changed to suit the local temperament.
The Czechs "bounce" it like a form of polka, the English
slowed it down and replaced the gaiety with a sort of affectionate
Victorian sentimentality, in small towns in Canada they dance it with
Square Dance posture and mannerisms. The Tango underwent a similar
process and was transformed by every group that accepted it (e.g.
in North Hungary it was done something like a fox-trot ... the close
embrace and overt sensuality of the original Argentine tango would
have led to the axes and knives of protective relatives being drawn
immediately). .
Salsa seems to be undergoing a similar process in that many regional
variants have appeared since the root elements of salsa left Cuba
... New York style, LA style, Colombian, Mexican, Puerto Rican and
"sub-styles" (including competitive style) incorporating
elements of hip-hop, jazz, modern dance and ballroom. Some people
seem intensely uncomfortable with this process of regional diversity
(which I, as a folk dancer, consider normal and healthy) and have
become outspoken advocates of one region's or community's style over
another as the preferred basis for dancing salsa in Toronto ... and
like the villagers cited earlier insist that "their" version
of a dance is the "real" or "pure" one.
To presume that there is one "natural" and "correct"
way to respond to given piece of music or dance or, conversely, that
our response is entirely an individual matter to this stimulus is,
I think, a fallacy. We each see and interpret a dance and music in
context, based on our own culture, past experiences (dance or otherwise)
and background i.e. to some extent our response is "conditioned".
This filtration and adaptation is what is "natural" (e.g.
see Gordon Beckle's account of the adaptation of European Contra dances
to Caribbean culture), not the wholesale mimicking of another area's
style which has to be consciously fostered by travelling teachers
(not possible except in relatively rich areas in any case). Left to
their own devices, people will dance in a way that is familiar to
them and will superimpose their own local style on a dance.
Does this process of variation to suit local needs and sensibilities
represent "corruption" of some pure dance ? No ... of course
not. It represents both honesty and practicality. Honesty because
dancing, even if you initially copy and learn steps from an "outside"
source, must be (ideally) an expression of who YOU are (both as an
individual and as a member of your original or adopted community)
and not just an imitation of what someone else, somewhere else, is.
Practicality because in order for a couples dance to be successfully
performed, there must be a common conception between partners of the
technical (lead/follow), stylistic, rhythmic and movement vocabulary
(steps, motifs, structural elements) of the dance - individual expression
finds it way within these parameters which are typically applied to
numerous dances done in the same locality rather than re-invented
for each dance (hence the "salsa-cha-cha" and "salsa-merengue"
typically seen in clubs in Toronto).
This adaptability is precisely the strength of salsa .. the same strength
that dances like the waltz and tango had before it. Because of its
"mixed" heritage and structure, practically anyone can find
something both "familiar" and "novel" in it which
speaks to them be it the European, Latin or Afro elements. Consequently,
we can each bring something of our own stylistic sensibilities (whatever
they are ... ballroom, jazz, modern dance, folk dance elements from
our native lands, flamenco) to the dance and bring our own range of
emotions, as they relate to the music and to the person we are dancing
with, into play when dancing. This style and range of emotions may
be wildly different from those employed in salsa elsewhere and by
other people ... elegance vs. sensuality, friendly affection vs. seductiveness,
quiet pride vs. machismo, explosive sharp movement vs. smooth, polite
aloofness and respect vs. instant familiarity, simple choreographic
structure vs. complex and acrobatic approaches etc.. The key is that
it can be customized to fit a wide variety of approaches. A glance
around any salsa club instantly reveals its attraction to virtually
all ethnic and racial groups and ages. It can continue to speak to
all people as long as it is not prematurely muzzled and consciously
restricted in its growth by insisting on any particular "right"
style imported willy-nilly from elsewhere with no allowance for local
cultural conditions. The dance must be kept "honest" in
that it reflects the temperament (i.e. the "reality") of
the people dancing it both collectively (as a community) and as individuals.
The only "right" style within the context of a locality
(e.g. Toronto) is that there be the development of a common basic
technique which gains enough acceptance to enable people to dance
with one another here while still leaving loads of room for wide variety
of individual stylistic expression to accommodate our wide range of
ethnic backgrounds and individual temperaments. I applaud the rich
variety of (somewhat incompatible) salsa that can be found around
the world but, for me, at least, it makes precious little difference
whether I can dance salsa in New York, LA, Cuba or Colombia ... 99.9
% of the time I will be dancing right here on my home turf. What matters
more to me is that if I ask a girl to dance here (whether she be Latin,
Indian, Anglo, European, Caribbean, old or young) that we have enough
"common ground" in terms of timing and lead/follow to be
able to enjoy the dance. Too much emphasis on the strict adoption
of other areas' form of salsa may result in the development of "cliques"
who dance exclusively in certain styles. There are some signs of this
already. There is nothing wrong with this at all, but I am not at
all sure that the salsa community here is large enough yet to support
this fracturing and I'm not sure if the clubs or schools can thrive
in the long term if the local market becomes too divided.
This, I think, is the daunting task that should be undertaken by our
very excellent teachers in this fair city ... the development of a
regional "Toronto" or "Canadian" basis for salsa
which not only reflects our individual and cultural diversity but
also fosters a cohesive salsa community here by giving us an underlying
common technical basis from which to develop a strong local variant
of the dance which "borrows" from other styles but transforms
the adopted elements to our locality and adds our own (not necessarily
"light") stylistic touch to them i.e. helping to sow the
seeds of a "Toronto salsa" which reflects our community.
This may require some "collusion" between teachers or maybe
even the development of a basic "syllabus" which incorporates
some common technique and motifs while still allowing great scope
for individual style. Until this is done, we will not have "assimilated"
salsa and made it our own as have the Colombians, Cubans, New Yorkers
and Puerto Ricans who have developed their own regional styles i.e.
salsa dancing here will likely share the demise of past imported dance
"fads" ultimately indulged in by a relatively small number
of aficionados (salsaholics). -- Gabor
February
3, 2003 -- Rene's response to Vladimir
Funny,
for someone who wasn't going into a discussion and who wasn't going
to say what other people said, you said a lot. A lot yet said nothing.
I have no idea what you were trying to say.
Maybe
some of the Salseros that were around when I first started don't agree
with me, maybe they do. Do they agree with you? I doubt it.
I don't
ever remember you winning any competitions. Perhaps you did. But I
don't remember you winning the year that I competed.
Yes I did enter the competition once, as an amateur,. If I'm not mistaken
this was in 1995. Besides the competitors I considered myself a beginner,
not because I didn't know how to dance but because of dancers like
Pedro and Racquel. I felt I had so much to learn. What I realized
later was that show dancing and just having fun are two different
things.
Anyways, I came in 3rd. I originally thought that I was ripped off.
But upon looking at a video later on I realized that I probably didn't
deserve to win. Hey, at least I'm honest about it. Can you say the
same?
Around this same time I was teaching at either Plaza Flamingo or El
Rancho (can't recall).
Maybe
I wasn't really known as an instructor back then, by you or possibly
even others, but I was teaching. I taught what I knew and tried to
do it while having fun.
Sure
I'm a little protective of my Instructor image. Whether you realize
it or not or believe it or not, I've worked long and hard on becoming
a good instructor. But if someone has something to say about my teaching
then they can do so. Rose can provide them with my email and telephone
number if they wish it - otherwise they can post it here on TOSalsa.
I know
that last time I mentioned that I'd reserve comments about your teaching.
But I read Francisco's comments about SalsaPlus. I had forgotten all
about that. I just remembered that about 4-6 (??) years back that
I took a Casino class that you taught. I paid what I believe was $60.
I took that class and was hoping that I could learn something as I'm
always open to learning. Even back then I picked up on routines pretty
easily. But in your class I remember that I felt that the only thing
I learned that day was that I was taken for a ride.
Maybe you were in it more for the money back then.
You say
you know music... Perhaps you do. But do you know about teaching?
You see a lot of people start teaching for the sake of either picking
up girls or for some easy money. There is a lot more to teaching than
just knowing how to dance or knowing a little about music.
A student has to learn so much at beginning that it can be overwhelming.
Some people give up at the start where others give up when they try
to learn and add everything at once.
I, along
with others, have mentioned about the evolution of dance, so too is
there an evolution in the way we teach. We, as instructors, have to
understand that everyone has different learning curves. If you had
20 people start Salsa lessons at the same time - you'd have a couple
of different levels within the 1st or 2nd day and many levels by the
3rd and 4th class. That is some people pick-up steps very easily and
others don't.
I also
once read that Salsa is so much easier than ballroom because it's
a street dance and has no structure. I've had people, that dance ballroom,
come up to me and mentioned that Salsa is much harder. It's possible
that they were either slow learners, had a bad instructor or both.
Maybe there is truth to it that it's harder.
Being
an instructor or student is not just about learning patterns. It's
about learning a bit about the music, how to lead, how to follow,
timing, transition, how to correct a student's mistakes, to keep loose
and flexible, patience/persistence, people skills, body movements,
and so much more.. When I first started the instructors tried to make
it fun but only a few of the instructors had some loose structure.
Others taught what they felt like on that day.
Well
I can tell you that some of the top Toronto Instructors, including
UnitedSalseros, have added structure to Salsa. We have an in-depth
syllabus and don't just teach what's at the top of our heads.
Perhaps you and others don't like this or just don't know how to teach
it. Regardless, we've found that students have an easier time in learning.
Maybe
you've become much more knowledgeable in music.I don't know. But I
also hope that you have become much better as an instructor. Whether
it's in teaching strategies or just having an open mind. Perhaps people
would be more open to you if you didn't force your views on them like
some religious fanatic and learned a little bit of tact. You consider
yourself a musician? Well, besides what bit of music is taught in
classes, Stephanie is the only one teaching workshops. You could take
advantage of this and teach some music to the more advanced students.
That's if you don't scare them off first.
You stated
on another message (to Francisco I believe) that Mexico was dancing
Mambo before NY? Where did that come from?
As for
the Cubans doing shines..... I suppose that maybe one could consider
a Cuban dancing solo "shines". Yes, they are both a form
of expression and can both be considered playful and even a call and
answer. But if you see a New Yorker/Puerto Rican doing shines and
then a Cuban - they look like different dances altogether. The Cuban
footwork is not as intricate as that of a NY/PR dancer the styling
is different as is the way they express themselves. I suppose that
this can be another argument altogether. But I don't think most people
would bite with this comment.
Yes I
did mention your name. A lot of people have also mentioned your name
and have commented on some of your write-ups but have either not written
in or decided not to use their names. At least I have the nerve of
also placing my name on the same message. Then again it's probably
the fact that some people have gotten tired of these debates, if you
can call them that, that really get nowhere. Kind of like me at this
stage. Any other comments, if I feel they are even worth it, will
be said in person.
Write
what you want as this will most likely be my last response. All I
have left to say is just chill out and have some fun. You previously
said that back in the day everyone just had fun. Well it doesn't seem
like you're having any.
Live,
Love, Laugh y Salsa -- Rene
February
3, 2003 -- Discussion on Cuban and LA Styles of Salsa
Mana,
It is true that the slot-style of dancing takes less space and Casino
takes more space. However, in Cuban-style dancing our feet are skimming
the ground most of the time. When you are dancing with Cuban-style
dancers, you never encounter getting stepped on, or getting kicked,
or someone spinning out of control and bumping into you: something
that always seems to happen at clubs when people are dancing LA style
around you. When everyone is dancing circular, the circles are very
gracious and accommodating to people around them. Seattle
February
3, 2003 -- how we dance salsa in TO compared to Cuba
Jo Kim,
I followed your link to the cuban video samples and I was very much
impressed (the jan 30 '01 post, it's over 2 years old!!!!) Cuban style
looks good, i mean damn good (mind u, it stated they were among the
best dancers in cuba so its kinda expected). While i don't agree with
your nationalist and irrelevant views on where salsa originated (soccer
originated in Britain, but which countries are best at soccer? Brits
don't really care anyways, they just love to play soccer regardless.
Try going to Rio de Janerio and telling 'em they don't play "real"
soccer cause they're not British, we'll see what happens to ya ;))
I'm just inquiring about where I can find the songs they were dancing
to? The site said they're the latest artists in cuba, where could
I find their albums/songs here in canada? I'm quite bored with the
salsa we hear at the clubs, the cuban music was a welcome reprieve
to say the least. I realize the embargo on cuba does'nt help much,
but any leads would be great. Oh, the artists are named on this link:
http://www.salsaville.com/salc/salc_demo.htm -- any hints? Thanks
in advance and ciao. -- Sam
February
5, 2003 -- Respond to Rene
Rene
like i said on my last comments I'm not going to get into a conversation
on how you teach or how i teach because really i don't care what you
have to say, you could say that I'm the worse instructor on the planet
and honestly i would not care, like i said it is your opinion, we
all have our opinions.
Also Rene people have called me or talked to me at
different clubs about what you said about teaching for so long and
it is not just two salseros you can ask any old Djs ask club owners
or many of the dancers and they would agree with me , and for the
record so it is clear for you but to me it really doesn't matter because
it doesn't represent anything but the competitons that i won are:
1st place Rumba Nite 1995. 1st place Sabor Latino Club 1995. 1st place
La clasique (best show comp)1996. 2nd place Berlin competition.1997.
1st place 1st International salsa competition LA Hollywood Best dance
instructor Best of Now 1999 & 2000. Humber College jazz program.Toronto.
Amadeo Rholdan Conservatory, Havana, Cuba School of Arts (escuela
de arte)Havana Cuba. To me even dough i went to school for this i
don't consider my self a professional dancer, musician or instructor,
as a dancer i think i dance ok and i know that there are many people
out there that can dance way better than me so you know i know were
i stand.
About Stephanie teaching music that is good for her
and yes i would love to work with her one day she is someone that
i respect because i think she knows about music and dancing but i'm
ok for now thank you Rene i do teach music and dancing to many people,
from basic percussion to different rhythms and dances of Latin America
and especially the carrabbian.
Also Rene I have never tought to you, you never paid
me no money for no class, and i only remember that one time you called
me about casino lessons for you and a group of people but i never
heard from you again.
About yout teaching comments or preaching i really
don't care what you think of the way people teach or the way you teach,
idon't know if you are good or bad and i really don't care.
About Maxicans dancing to mambo befor it got to N.Y
let teach you something The word Mambo represents two things , one
is the creator of the term Mambo by Arcano and his Orchestra in 1938
Danzon Mambo was the starting point where musicians started to use
this word to discribe the horn section and later in the late 40's
the piano player and composer Damaso Perez Prado invented a new style
of music and dance called Mambo, the first Mambo song that got the
world's attention was called Rico Mambo or Mambo Jumbo, than at the
time Mexico was the Hollywood of Latin America, alot of Musician from
Cuba imigrated to Mexiaco like Perez Prado and Beny More and made
this music famous there, After this is when the Mambo reaches N.Y
where it would take different forms depending on the song writer,
but at that time Mambo was already old news in Cuba, Mambo was not
dance in couples at that time, you are probably talking about the
dance on 2 from N.Y that some people call mambo, that came years later.
About your other comments about shines i did not write
that, those coments were made by someone else but i do agree with
what was said.
Rene people can dance to what ever they want i don't
force anybody to dance, you are trying to make me look like a very
close minded person and there will be people that will belive you
but like i said i really don't care i have my students that learn
from me what ever i can teach them and that is enough for me.
This
is also going to be my last respond to you on To salsa, and i do have
fun Rene after all last time i saw you i said hi to you and and shook
your hand and one day i wake up and i read all this comments you had
wrote about me when i never mention your name before on TO salsa so
i think the unhappy one here is you, RELAX, and yes Rene if you have
anything to say to me say it in person if you want no problem oye
que aca no hay miedo, nos estamos viendo.. -- Vladimir
February
6, 2003 -- Response to Vladimir
Vladimir,
Even if the people in Toronto, as you claim, did not dance NY or LA
style salsa back in 1999, that still does not excuse you from not
informing dancers/students of these two important styles. That was
a clear misrepresentation on your part in not acknowledging them.
You have a duty as an instructor to be knowledgeable and competent
in your craft.
There is no official “ballroom salsa”,
when you go to an International Latin Ballroom competition you are
not going to see salsa, it is not part of their itinerary. Colombian
or Venezuelan style salsa dancing is so obscure and minimal that it
arguably does not fall into the status of being an official style
that is recognized worldwide. Again, this makes me question whether
you even had any knowledge back in 1999 of NY or LA style.
Timba is just like Salsa, it is a musical approach.
Timba is not a rhythm. Timba takes Cuban son, Nuyorican and romantic
salsa and mixes it up with Rap, Hip-Hop and Rock.
Miami Cubans have other things to worry about? This
comment even further discredits your argument of Salsa is Cuban music.
If anything, Miami should of been the place where the son would have
undergone its next stage of development and transformation given that
Cubans are the majority in that city. Why did that not happen Vladimir?
Instead the son was transformed in NY where Puertoricans were the
majority not Cubans.
If you do research you will find that Cubans in the
U.S. did not want anything to do with the son, most of the Cubans
musicians played Charanga, they had no interest in developing the
son to the next level.
Patato, like every other musicians back then who feared
the wrath of the Miami Cuban exiles, performed under the Puertorican
banner to preserve his musical career. Do you think he would of had
his musical career if he posed with the Cuban flag or played with
musicians in Cuba?
It was the exiles that created this hostile atmosphere.
They threatened club owners and radio stations with violence if they
allowed any band that had any connection to Communist Cuba. Tipica
73's career was destroyed because they went to Castro’s Cuba
to record an album - “Intercambio Musical” LP. That is
just one of many examples.
Son with bomba and plena does not happen all the time
b/c other genres such as Jazz are used. You can discredit an entire
musical movement in NYC merely on the basis that a handful of songs
or musicians don’t mix son with other genres. Salsa is a musical/cultural
movement.
I’m sorry to say that your statement about L.A.
style salsa being casino mixed ballroom is pure nonsense. You must
be blind if you cannot see how “non-Cuban” L.A. style
salsa really is. Dancers like the Vazquez brothers are like night
and day when you compare them to Cuban dancers. Go visit the Salsa
culture in L.A. or NY before you make such erroneous statements.
Music and dancing does not revolve around Cuba. If
any place is the center of music and dancing, it would be Africa.
Cuban dancing and music owes its existence primarily to Africa.
I’d like to end with a statement that uses and
inverts Vladimir’s logic - “La musica Cubana is musica
Africana mal tocada”. Translation: Cuban music is African music
badly played.
Many
Cubans say a similar statement except they say it about Salsa music,
that it is badly played Cuban music. Stupid and ignorant is what I
would say. Francisco
February
7, 2003 -- response to Mechy
Mechy,
I know enough about Casino to know that it originated in 1955 in Cuba
and that it was originally danced to Cha-Cha-Cha not Son. That is
fact.
When I was talking about Casino Rueda I was not talking
about the overall Casino-style. I was merely talking about Rueda and
how partners are interchanged. And yes it is influenced by American
Country Dancing. You should give thanks to American Cowboys and Cowgirls
for their influence.
I said there is a lack of ladies styling in Cuban
style b/c it is the man who is predominant in the execution of all
the moves. The woman often looks like she is being “yanked”
around, it also looks very rough and very “jerky”. Look
at how women style in NY or LA, it is world’s removed from Cuban
style. But that is fine, the last thing we want is dancing clones.
It is good that every style has its unique attributes and characteristics.
Cuban-style just happens to be a predominantly male dance, the emphasis
is not on showing off the lady.
Shines from Cuba? Ah yes, here we go again with the
“EVERYTHING RELATED TO SALSA MUSIC AND SALSA DANCING IS FROM
CUBA” nonsense. BTW, is Hip-Hop from Cuba? Or maybe Jazz and
Classical music is from Cuba too? Or how about Death Metal, is that
from Cuba too?
Shines as we know them today developed in New York,
it’s historical roots come from Bomba dancing where both the
man and woman break off from each other to do solo dancing/footwork
with one another. Now combine that with the fact that in the 1950s
and 1960s NY mambo dancers began to incorporate a lot swing/jazz footwork
into Mambo dancing thus giving rise to “Shines”. Over
the years, other influences like Hustle was incorporated into Mambo.
In fact, most of the NY salsa/mambo turns and combinations come from
Swing and Hustle not Casino as you say it does.
Yes, I have seen Cuban dancing and I have seen Cuban
footwork but it is radically different from the NY/Puertorican/Nuyorican
shines. Have you ever seen Puertorican shines?The footwork is executed
in a very smooth, sharp and fluid manner. There is a large emphasis
on being clean and elegant in your footwork.
Footwork in Cuban style is kept to an absolute minimum.
You will rarely see a Cuban-style dancer break off and do shines when
he is dancing salsa. It is a rare occurrence. I have only seen Cuban-style
dancers do footwork when they dance alone.
LA style dancers lack inspiration? Where do you get
this observation from? If anything, LA style is the most open. You
can incorporate anything you want into LA style. I don’t think
you have been to LA to see the salsa dancing that goes on there. You
could sit for hours and just watch with amazement.
The clave
is from West Africa. It was brought to Cuba by West African slaves.
-- Francisco
February
8, 2003 -- respond to vladimir
Salsa is la musica mal tocada (music played wrong).
That is what the majority of the big time musicians @ that time called
this music including Tito Puente. What i find very fascinating is
that now those in particular that wanted nothing to do w/ this music
want to call it there own. If "salsa" is la musical mal
tocada, guess what that musica mal tocada has conquered. Vladimir,I
disagree w/ you,yes "salsa" is la musica mal tocada. and
by being called la musica mal tocada it is evident enough to say that
in cuba they never played this musica mal tocada, (cause Vladimir
you & I know Cubans don't play musica mal tocada, Ha Ha) until
it was played & created in NYC. If great musicians such as Tito
Puente, Machito,Cachao, Etc. call "salsa" la musica mal
tocada and you disagree w/ them, Why? cause the truth is right there!
which shows you are in denial. Who are you compared to them?
About "El Sonero Mayor" Ismael Rivera not
being in par w/ "El Barbaro" Beny More, now you've bitten
more than you can chew.Ismael Rivera could also sing bolero, son,
guaracha,cha cha cha, mambo,danzon & this is where the difference
takes place "bomba y plena".I've never heard the great Beny
More sing bomba y plena.AAAhhh, to sing bomba y plena you must be
a sonero. You cannot just be a singer and try to sonar to a plena,you
know why? cause the singer would be lost & out of his element.If
anyone in this site ever ask yourself why ? does Puerto Rico has such
good soneros, it is because
of "la bomba y la plena, that "great african" influence.
If you don't beleive me try be a sonero w/ the pleneros you will be
lost & out of your element. And who told you about that fable
that Ismael Rivera was nervous to sing w/ Beny More and that's how
he got that nick name "el sonero Mayor" Furthermore Beny
More was one of the "greatest" singers of our music he had
style & class, and yes he could sing it all.but i've never heard
him sing a bomba y plena. I beleive Beny was a better singer in bolero
& maybe mambo too, but not a better sonero Ismael was just amazing.
Just buy their recordings & compare, the proof is in the pudding.
Someone said that Cuba has better soneros than Puerto Rico, don't
go there!!! I could name you Rain of showers of soneros.
For you to say "salsa" is a Nuyorican creation,
I say thanks for the acknowledgement. "salsa has it's roots from
Cuba by way of Africa. It's like the first fighter planes that were
use in the world wars one & two, while they were great & classics.
there is no way you could say they are just the same as the fighter
jets that we have today.So when you say salsa is the same music that
was being played in Cuba in the 1920's, 30's, 40's, 50's Etc.... it
is not only ignorance on your part but sheer nonsense. It is your
way of dicrediting NYC/PR.
All this whinnig about Cuba not getting it's credit
or due respect is false. Everyone knows the contributions of Cuba.
But vladimir it seems like it is you who don't want to recognize.
You are the one that does not give
Puerto Ricans/NYC their due respect.And yes i have a problem w/ that.
*Remember la musica mal tocada is now what everyone
wants credit for. "con mi plena no hay quien me quema" -El
Lapiz Salsero de Verdad!!!
February
8, 2003 -- respond to Francisco
Mr Francisco
i don't claim nothing because back then those styles were not dance
yiet in Toronto and we were doing a show on the dances that were use
in Toronto's clubs, not LA or N.Y but i do see your point and i understand
you but i don't know if you live in Toronto or if you were present
at the taping of the shows there for i don't really think you know
what the idea of the show was.
About
Salsa Ballroom like i said before, yes if you go to a Latin Ballroom
competition you will not find salsa but i really don't think you understand
dancing in general, back then in Toronto alot of ballroom dancers
and instructors were going to the clubs to dance and they were not
dancing LA,N.Y, or casino, they were doing a dance that had colombian
salsa with a very strong ballroom influence, there for it is a new
or different style of dancing salsa, it does not have to be under
the name ballroom competition , also even dough it is not use in ballroom
competition there are still many ballroom schools that do teach salsa,
some don't even know that there are many different styles of dancing
salsa. I think you should also look up the term Ballroom dancing but
in spanish (bailes de salon), and after you find out the meaning look
to see how many dances from Latin America fall under that name, do
you know the difference between Perico Ripiao and Merengue? and how
one of this dance is consider a Baile de Salon in Dominican Rep, and
i'm not talking about the north American or European ballroom i'm
talking about Latin America, and this is one example of one dance
because there are many others, now this has nothing to do with what
we are talking about but it is an example to help you open your mind
and learn a little more about dancing and styles weather it is baile
de salon, street dance, traditional, popular or folklore, not all
of it is just LA or N.Y.
About
your comment of Colombian and Venezuelan salsa being obscure and minimal?
i think that is a very ignorant comment, go to Colombia or Venezuela
and say that to them, maybe to you it is like that becuase you probably
think that by doing more turns of flashy things it is better, well
it is not like that, Colombian salsa is a difererent style and so
is Venezuela, and they both go hand in hand with the music, of course
maybe the knowledge of an everyday person or dancer of la la clave
while they dance is not there but the feeling of the music is for
sure there, there are so many Colombian bands, and Colombian style
of salsa but i don't see any bands that come out of LA? LA it is a
style that comes with no music and by this i don't mean that one is
better than the other one it is all a matter of taste but your comments
about Colombian salsa are very ignorant, and about Venezuela why don't
you tell that to Oscar De Leon, tell him that back then when he was
playing his base and doing those funky steps they were very minimal.
About
Miami and N.Y, The people that emigrated to Miami were the everyday
people of Cuba, the musicians went to N.Y because N.Y had become the
place to be for music in the world and that was for anytype of musician
from any where in the world including Cuba, then tell me and let's
use your logic why is it that salsa since alot of people claim it
to be Puerto Rican why didn't it grow only in Puerto Rico? why did
it travel to N.Y? or Miami because there are as many Puerto Ricans
like Cubans in Miami, if you want to talk geography and music i think
you should do a little more reading on why music emigrates to other
countrys and who takes it there if it was brought by the midle class
or poor people or the rich people of the country you are researching
on. YOu are basically saying why if Toronto's actors are so good why
do they go to Hollywood? Not because they like the place or they will
become better actors but because the Money$$$$$ is there.
Now all
the other comments you have made you are only throwing names around,
but you fail to answer my question about music there for since you
know so much about salsa,different styles of dancing, music, and casino
or Cuban dancing, please anwer the fallowing questions.
1 How
does Jazz influence Timba?
2 How does Jazz influence salsa? I really want to hear this one because
you mentioned it.
3 What is the musical difference between clave of son and guaguanco?
4 How is columbia (not cumbia) use in casino?
5 what is rumba and what other three dances fall under Rumba.
6 Where does the name Casino come from?
7 What is the Tumbao of son, songo, and timba?
8 What is la cascara, it is in every salsa song?
9 what is an estribillo?
10 why is son dance a contratiempo?
11 what is the term use to discribe the way the danzon is danced?
12 If you wanted to use clave of guaguanco in son or salsa how would
you do it?
13 what is the difference between the casino of today and the one
from the 50's (not casino round)
14 tell me the difference and similarities between conga, merengue
and traditional Cumbia.
15 What is a seis chorreao from Puerto Rico and explain it musically?
16 how was the cha cha cha born and ho invented it?
17 and last who is Chango and Yemeya. How do you dance to them?.
Please
answer this questions Francisco, for someone that knows so much about
music, dance and history you should be able to aswer this basic questions.
and please don't answer this question with questions. -- Vladimir
P.S I
have been to LA nad i have walked the street of El Barrio and visited
the clubs in N.Y where i have met a lot of great people and dancers
so i have seen it with my own eyes.
February
9, 2003 -- Comments re Vladimir
I agree
with Vladimir in several points.
Firstly, I agree with Vladimir in that there is a recognizable variety
of salsa in Toronto related to Latin Ballroom. My first exposure to
salsa was at a Latin Ballroom school and I have taken a few workshops
given by some ballroom teachers who teach salsa primarily (I think)
because there is demand for it from their students rather than any
liking for the dance itself..
If I had to describe it, I would say that this style is based on miscellaneous
salsa steps from anywhere but interpreted through Latin Ballroom eyes
i.e. the lead/follow technique, posture, hip motions and arm motions
are directly taken from Latin Ballroom. The method of teaching I encountered
followed the "long routine" pattern (as opposed to emphasis
on how to improvise on a dance floor) as is usually the case for ballroom
classes. I haven't been to a ballroom club for quite a while but a
couple of years ago there was a distinct difference between what salsa
generally looked like at a ballroom venue (like Famee Fulane's) and
a salsa club (like Berlin, Babaluu's etc.). I think this style is
still around (saw a group of people, probably from a dance school,
dancing at Atlantis last year like this and still see it at clubs
now and then - it looks different so it stands out at a club). This
is natural, of course, since as I had said in my earlier note, communities
(and the Ballroom dancers do constitute a community) will generally
apply techniques and style that they are familiar with to their dancing
unless shown (and convinced) to do otherwise. This is, basically,
how local and community variants of dances come into being. For my
own part, I decided that I liked the "club" salsa better
and so I defected from the Ballroom school and enrolled in a "salsa
school" instead (of which I've been a happy and contented member
of for a couple of years now). Some Ballroom teachers (Elizabeth Sadowska
and Dimiti and Oksana Chumak come to mind) also recognize the difference
and take pains to teach practical (club) salsa as opposed to ballroom-based
technique.
It's also quite obvious that salsa competitors and performing groups
also freely use elements of Latin Ballroom technique as well as Modern
Dance and Jazz (as a glance at the video excerpts on ToSalsa will
confirm). This makes perfect sense, of course, since many of the techniques
of International style Ballroom were developed (I think) to look impressive
at a distance when giving a show or competing. Some of the usual competitors
also have a Latin Ballroom background. Nothing at all wrong with this
in my opinion - on stage it's "show dancing" not "social
dancing" and the emphasis is on projecting out to and "WOW-ing"
an audience rather than showing your partner a good time in the restricted
space of a very crowded dance floor (which space limitation is one
of the factors which determines style - I think people would dance
salsa here very differently if clubs had huge floors and lots of space).
Every tool in the dancer's kit is legitimate to use on stage.
I also agree with Vladimir that Colombian style, from what I've seen
of it (mostly visiting Colombians), seems very much to fit the music.
Quite different from what I normally see at the clubs here. I am not
a salsa expert and don't claim to be (just a run-of-the-mill dancer
who dances socially for fun) but I really liked the Colombian footwork
I've seen and the general style. I'm a little surprised that it's
not more popular here and that no-one really seems to teach it (as
opposed to the LA, New York and Cuban styles). Does anyone know why
?
Anyway, I guess each of us has to find a style (or styles) that we
feel at home in. We each come from different backgrounds (dance and
otherwise) and are drawn to salsa for different reasons and respond
to it on different levels. As a non-Latin, the ultimate origins of
salsa dancing are only of academic interest to me so I can't get too
emotionally involved in this question as others seem to. To be honest,
I was drawn to salsa primarily because of its European dance aspects
i.e. the fact that it is (as it's usually done in Toronto) essentially
an improvisational couples (partnering) dance with spins, turns, cross-body
leads and similar motifs. On this elementary structural level (not
in terms of style or music) it is really not much different in principle
from all sorts of European social and folk dances and their past North
American derivatives ( swing, jive, jitterbug, disco etc.) so I view
salsa dancing as part of the same general "family" regardless
of which specific country (or ethnic group) it ultimately came from.
Of course my dancing (as just a generic non-latin "for fun"
dancer) also reflects this perception - Vladimir, and some other contributors,
are correct when they say that many dancers here (like me) don't respond
to the subtleties of the music as do Cubans, Colombians and others
- so salsa here doesn't look "right" to them. I (like many
others here I think) tend to dance "on 1" to the basic (
8 count) phrase rather than to the clave and tend to like music which
supports this way of dancing as opposed to pieces which get so syncopated
that the underlying beat gets so deliberately obscured that it requires
a lot of concentration to stay on rhythm (concentration I would rather
spend on keeping my partner happy, comfortable and amused). I'll be
honest ... dance music to me (as a casual dancer) is "functional"
and I judge it purely and simply by whether it makes me feel like
dancing and helps (rather than hinders) the way I dance. Am I alone
in this ? Anyone ?
In practice, salsa (and to a lesser extent ... merengue and cha-cha)
are the only partner dances readily available in a strictly social
(club) setting which I think, in reality, is the key to salsa's popularity
among non-Latins. If salsa, at any point, becomes a dance where the
partners dance mostly "apart" it will not have nearly the
appeal for me since it will no longer be a "couples dance"
where the partners dance WITH each other insead of AT each other.
I don't think I'm alone in this ... many girls I've dance with (even
fairly advanced ones) have said that they are uncomfortable with "shines"
and prefer to stick to the (couple dance) spins and turns. Each of
us, and each community, is different in terms of what we find "fun"
and so we dance differently .... and this is what makes the world
a wonderful place.
all the best, Gabor
February
20, 2003 -- Response to Vladimir
Vladimir,
First off, I am not going to indulge you in your juvenile games of
20 questions/Spanish Inquisition. Most of the questions you have posed
are not even related to the subject matter in this forum.
This is supposed to be a mature discussion not frivolous,
childish questioning. Take some advice: Before you demand that someone
answer your questions you should practice what you preach and answer
the questions that have been put forth to you in this discussion by
Maria or Richie Rumbero. If you want a discussion of Cuban rhythms
explained via musician-style jargon or distract the discussion away
from the questioning of your teaching methods than I suggest you start
a new forum. Other than that I suggest you stay on topic.
I don’t know you personally. I only recognize
you from the Salsa Plus episode. But I must say that when I first
saw that episode of you teaching casino it made me question your teaching
techniques.
First off, it is true that the show was about teaching
Casino. I specifically recall that when the matter pertaining to Salsa
dance styles came up it was in reference to questions that were being
brought forth by viewers of the show. It did not have to do with the
theme of the show.
People were contacting the show and questioning how
you were counting the steps. You were counting the steps as “123
and 123”. Various instructors around Toronto were questioning
your methods and they wanted an explanation, given that most if not
all of them utilized the 123 567 count for dancing on 1. Furthermore,
I recall that half the time you were not even using the count to explain
the turns and footwork. Instead you would say things like “now
do this step and then this step” or “Mambo/Casino crossover
step”. Let me say that it would be very difficult for any beginner
to learn Casino when you are not even breaking down the moves to the
count.
My experience with learning from instructor’s
who teach Cuban style has been somewhat similar. I can say that I
lost interest in Cuban style mainly due to the poor quality of instruction.
Many of the instructors that I have taken lessons with taught the
moves not through counting and timing but by saying things like “step
like this” and “move here and then move there”.
I too, like Rene, felt that I was taken for a ride.
Anyhow, after the interviewer brought up this matter
to you, you became defensive and then proceeded to give your reasons
for your odd counting system. Then you concluded by informing us that
there is “Latin Ballroom, Colombian style salsa, and Cuban style
salsa”. And that we all should remember that “Salsa is
from Cuba” (a historically revisionist and fallacious statement
that is equivalent to saying that Jazz or Soul is from Cuba).
So you see, the only reason you brought up the topic
of the other dance styles was because you got defensive that other
instructors were holding you accountable. By erroneously telling them
that “Salsa is from Cuba” you wanted to make them look
uninformed.
You are wrong when you say that the show was about
teaching people dance styles that were popular in Toronto. In fact,
if that was the case then you would have of been taught the old Toronto-style.
The interviewer at the beginning even mentioned the fact that Casino
was not predominant in TO and that salsa is danced “differently”
in TO and you nodded in agreement.
Even if it was the case that you knew about NY and
LA but you did not mention it b/c no one in TO knew about those dance
styles that still does not excuse you. It would be analogous to a
Professor of Poetry teaching only certain styles of writing and poetry
because his students were not familiar with most of the main genres
and styles in that particular area. If any professor did that they
would be fired for not doing their job.
So, yes, I did know what the show was about. Unfortunately,
I cannot say the same for you.
My point in this issue is that as a competent dance
instructor, as you claim to be, you have a DUTY of care to your students
to be knowledgeable and learned in your craft. By not knowing or explaining
to the television viewers that there is a NY and LA style of salsa
dancing simply illustrates your inadequacies and ignorance in the
craft. If people are paying you good money to teach them to dance
you owe them nothing less than your best.
About the ballroom issue, I agree that there are many
ballroom dancers that dance salsa and make it look very ballroom influenced
BUT there is no official “Ballroom Salsa Category” in
the Professional Latin Ballroom syllabus.
In regards to Colombia and Venezuela, my statements
merely alluded to the fact that their particular salsa dance style
is not as predominant as the big three: NY, LA, Cuban. If you go to
most Salsa Congress’s you will be pressed to find a significant
amount of couples dancing the aforementioned styles. And no, my comments
are not ignorant they are true facts. I am sure in their respective
countries these styles dominate but around the world their influence
is minimal at best. That does not mean that I dislike or disrespect
these styles. Go to the World Salsa Congress in PR and do an analysis
of couples dancing Colombian or Venezuelan style as compared to NY
or LA. It is a very small percentage.
Furthermore, I was not making statements about Salsa
music in Venezuela and Colombia, just the dance, so I see no relevance
to the matter in your reference to salsa bands in those countries.
BTW, the historical context of Colombian salsa music scene was based
on the overwhelming popularity of the New York (Fania) Salsa explosion
in the early 1970s. Fruko was one of the first bands to emerge in
Colombia and they have continuously acknowledged and have expressed
immense gratitude to the Fania influence. In fact, most of the early
bands in Colombia have flat out admitted that they wanted to sound
like the NY salsa bands.
How can say LA has no salsa bands? You obviously have
not been to LA. Here is a list of some of the more popular bands:
1) Johnny Polanco y Su Conjunto Amistad 2) Orquesta Tabaco y Ron and
3) Ricardo Lemvo y Makina Loca.
Vladimir, when I have posted questions to you in previous
posts it is because I want to hear what you have to say on the matter.
I already know the answer. This is the case with the question about
Miami Cubans that I posed to you. Of course I know that most musicians
went to New York, that was where the work was. My point was to illustrate
that even though Cuban musicians went to NY, it was the Puertoricans
and Nuyoricans that predominated in the Salsa scene. Cubans were the
tiny minority: Cruz, Chocolate, Justo Betancourt, Cachao, etc. It
is also a fact that most Cuban musicians in the US were not interested
in what the NY Puertoricans were doing. A lot of them were more interested
in playing Charanga than in being active participants in the transformation
and reinterpretation of the Son that was being undertaken by NY Boricuas.
Further, another reason why Miami never developed
into a lively Afro-Cuban music center is because of racist attitudes;
most affluent white Cubans who came to Miami had a strong dislike
for this music. To a lot of white Cubans, genres like the Son are
seen as “black music” or “ghetto music”, music
of the poor and impoverished classes. I recall the many names that
were made by white latinos in reference to this music: “musica
de monos” (monkey music) and “cocolos” (coconut
heads) come to mind.
I have never claimed that Salsa is from Puerto Rico.
I have stated and I will continue to state and stand by the historical
fact that this musical concept/approach that we all know as Salsa
is from New York. It was created predominantly by Puertoricans living
in NY and by Puertoricans who were born and raised in NY, better known
as Nuyoricans.
This
is my whole purpose for entering into discussions with people like
you who seem to want to plant the Cuban flag on all aspects of Afro-Caribbean
and tropical music. I enter these debates to challenge this very historical
revisionism that you are communicating. The arguments from the “Salsa
is Cuban music” school hasless to do with fact and more to do
with vulgar nationalism, politics, jealousy and greed. -- Francisco
February
24, 2003 -- Respond to Francisco
Mr Francisco
for someone that wants to talk about about salsa and politics and
other things you should really know that all of my questions have
a lot to do with what were are talking about,cence you know so much
about everything answer them, if you don't know the answers than shut
up all together, don't be afraid to say you don't know and read and
go to school, dancing to la clave is more than going to a salsa congres,
like i said ANSWER MY QUESTIONS WHICH HAVE TO DO WITH MUSIC, DANCING,
you know dancing and music than answer them.
Where
do you live Francisco? in LA or Toronto or N.Y, you talk as if you
live in every single city? please know it all tell me.
About
questioning my teaching skills my friend like i said before i don't
consider my self a profesional dancer but i can tell you that cence
i actually went to school and i learn something new everyday i'm very
confident of my dancing and teaching, now i don't want to go into
talking about my self and defend my self before you turn the tables
around and try to make me look like a consided person, i guess to
talk about someone with out really knowing them tells me the kind
of person you are and no wonder you talk about music the way you talk
you really don't know much, i guess you would argue with a musicologist,
but the people that really know me know the kind of person I'm and
if i got where i'm in the city is because i'm doing something good
when it comes to teaching.
About
your 1,2,3 comments who were this instructors comenting about counting
like that, when i put something together for a show i would count
from 1 to 8 and if i teach i can count the same or from 1 to 3, i
gues you are one person that needs to be explained that 1+1 is 2.
Also who do you think you are the salsa police please grow up, are
you an insrtuctor? a dancer? put your money where your mouth is and
if you live in Toronto join me in one of my classes it's on me, i
know you will say no and also i have alot to learn still and there
are so many people that dance way better than me but are you a dancer?
again if you live in TO why don't we met on the dance floor lets see
if you can dance as good as you talk, i will dance with your partner
and you with mine, no dps no lifts, put your money where your mouth
is.
Instructors
that teach for a long time know that if you teach on TV, a night club
or your own studio you will be aproching each senerio in a different
way, do you think in a show on TV you have the time to brake everything
down, it is a TV show not a salsa tape, sometimes in a club some owners
would want the class to have more fun before the night stars so they
can spend more money especially for beginners,the only time you can
judge someone is when they are teaching a class of their own in a
studio with people that are there to learn.
Also
if you feel like every casino dancer or instructor has taking you
for a ride or doesn't know how to teach than that is your opinion,
to me it sounds very ignorant but like i said before, you stereo type
everything that no wonder you think like that about the music.
About
your coment on me getting defensive and that is way i started to talk
about i don't know what??? , wow now you are also a psycologist good
for you man.
Again
about your ballroom coments let me try one last time, I KNOW THAT
THERE ARE IS NO SALSA IN PROFESSIONAL BALLROOM SYLLABUS but like i
said it is a different style of dancing there for it is a new or different
way of dancing salsa, it is not LA,NY,casino or COLOMBIAN, i was talkin
to a ballroom instructor on the weekend and she doesn't agree with
you at all, my friend you really have to learn more about dancing
and how new styles are born like i said not all of it is LA or N.Y
salsa style.
About
your Fruko Comments, he was influence by Fania like so many others
but not only Fania, most of the stuff he plays are pure son what you
will call salsa, songs like Que viva Chango St Barbara e.t.c. and
for the record what was Fania playing at that time? againg asides
from some bombas mix with son they were basically playing alot of
straight Cuban music.
My
friend, Puerto Rico has many great bands and they dance their way,
N.Y has many bands and they dance their way, Cuba has hundreds of
bands and you will find different tyles of dancing not only casino
ans so many other dances but of course you don't know this but oh
well and L.A has no bands that have made a strong musical impact like
so many banda from Cuba, Puerto Rico and N.Y, it is like me saying
"how can you say there are no bands in Korea"?, L.A DOESN'T
HAVE A STYLE OF SALSA THAT IS VERY FIFERENT FROM THE OTHERS, Tabaco
y Ron they are good but it is pure son and when i say son i don't
mean son de la loma i mean the son tha Cuba has been playing for the
past 50 years, MODERN SON.
About
Miami comments ok than why didn't miami become the center of music
because last time i checked there are a lot of Puerto Ricans just
like Cubans so whay didn't the Puerto Ricans made Miami the center,
Because N.Y is where the money is, about your comments about the white
Cubans that left miami in the 50's yes i would not say all but some
of them were very racist that is way they left Cuba they did not want
to be iguals to other low class pleople at the time but not all of
them felt like that , and the music that was coming out of Cuba had
nothing to do with the exilio Cubano, yes it is true that in this
little party the Cuban americans helped a great deal on Cuban music
and bands not making it to N.Y after the revolution in Cuba but there
is where people(FANIA)came into place,before the name salsa was used,
people were already dancig to this music in N.Y but it was not call
salsa, after they decided to call latin music salsa the name stuck
only the cuban music.
You
talk about Charanga and what is the difference between charanga and
salsa, this days you play charanga in a club and everybody calls it
salsa and you ask them what it is and thay say o it was born in N.Y
by Puerto Ricans e.t.c, when it come to music you got to call the
music by it's name , if it is guaracha, cumbia, bomba or son that
is way they have names, you will say that salsa is a comcept but that
concept doesn't apply to merengue, cumbia, plena, bomba, or seis chorreao
for you that concept is only use when it comes to old cuban music
from the 50"s to the 70's, it can not be use for the music of
today in Cuba because it is to ahead and it doesn't have your tipical
clave with montuno so it doesn't sound like salsa or some people call
it Cuban salsa, the average person desn't know that music in the clubs
is the same thing but 20 years more advance, you don't belive me just
listen to this four artists, Septeto Nacional (cuban Traditional son)
La Reve (Changui)Los Van Van (songo) and Bamboleo (timba) just a few
names, they all sound so different because like many musicians say
"el son is always in evolution". Vladimir
P.S Mr
Francisco please answer my questions from last time cence you know
so much about dancing and music, please don't do what you did this
time by getting out of it by saying that you are not going to get
into that, put your money where your mouth is for a change, anyways
i guess around now we are both probably getting tired of this so answer
my questions from my last coments or just live it like that and enjoy
your salsa.
February
26, 2003 -- Rene's E-mail to Vlaldimir
Dear
Rene, I think you are wrong to say the Valdimir is only in it for
the money. I am currently taking lessons with Vladimir. I have taken
lessons with several salsa teachers in Toronto. But Vladimir charges
the LEAST for his lessons. I was going through the list of all the
instructors on this site. And he charges less than all of them. What
he charges less for one and a half of class than what most teachers
charge for one hour. There aren't many students in class and he pays
attention to every student. He charges less than when he taught at
the Spanish Center. They are many excellent teachers in Toronto, you
should be more informed when you talk like this.
Another
example. If you think you are advanced dancer in salsa and you want
to enter at a intermediate or advanced level at a salsa school (for
example Soles), you have to take a private lesson with one of the
instructors. The private lesson costs more than the course !! Valdimir
does what did he did at the Spanish Center. He dances with you for
5 minutes and he immediately he can tell which level you are at. And
you don't have to pay !! -- Timba
February
26, 2003 -- response to Francisco
What is
shine anyway? It is doing footwork by yourself without a partner. Do
you really think New York salsa dancers were the first to dance by themselves
to Latin music? What are you are saying that if a person does some fancy
footwork by himself, it is not considered a shine? He needs a woman
a few meters away dancing for it to be considered a shine? Of course,
Cuban dancers dance solo in with their partner, I mean that's all they
do. I am beginning to doubt you have ever seen Cuban style dancing.
I really
don't think you don't a lot about Cuban dancing. Salsa dancing in
Cuba know is more focused on solo dancing. The young generation are
not really into partner dancing. Before you criticized Cuba style
dancing for not having shines or footwork, I was going to make the
same criticism of LA style dancing. For me LA style dancing is too
confined, they always do the same large steps over and over again.
But then suddenly break into their All That Jazz/ Chicago dance routine.
Casino is about dancing around the floor with your steps, tapping
and varying the steps.
I am
sorry you have had bad experiences with Cuban teachers. Just because
a person is Cuban doesn't mean he is a professional dancer ( a mistake
all people in Toronto make). Like LA or New , there are good dancers
and bad dancers. Don't mistake a Cuban trying to get any job in Canada
trying to make a buck, or a Cuban trying to pick up a woman at a bar
with a real Cuban dancer. How would you like it if I went to Plaza
Flamingo on a Saturday and concluded this is the level of Salsa dancing
in Toronto?
Franciso,
you read a book about Latin music and read a couple of sentences about
Casino in this book. This doesn't mean you know anything about Casino.
Don't confuse Casino rueda with Casino !! You are right Casino started
off with the rhythm of Cha Cha Cha. A lot of the dancing in these
clubs were not done in a rueda. Like everything in Cuba, rhythms get
mixed and constantly invented. You can dance Son to the Cha Cha Cha
steps, did you know that, Francisco? Cubans dance salsa very similarly
to Cha Cha Cha in terms of body movement turns, etc. Cha Cha Cha and
salsa both have the Cuban clave.
Why don't
you admit Cuban dancing had any influence on New York style dancing?
What were Latin bands playing in New York before the "invention"
of salsa in New York in 1970's? They were playing mambo, cha cha cha,
and son. They were't playing swing, hustle or even plena. Why do you
call New York salsa dancing "mambo" ? Mambo is 100% Cuban
music !! Don't you think how Cubans danced mambo had any influence
in New York ?
Dancing
should get inspiration from the music. And quite frankly the salsa
music from LA sucks !! Salsa musicians in LA are so inventive they
make salsa "elevator music" versions of "Lady"
and "Careless Whisper". That's why, LA dancers have to invent
dance routines to based on movies. Don't you think salsa dance routines
based on the movies "MAtrix" and "Misson Impossible"
show a lack of inspiration for the music?
The most
famous dancers from LA the Francisco brothers are from Guadalajara,
Mexico. I have been to Guadalajara, there is no salsa culture there.
They learned to dance in LA. They use their Latiness so that American
people think they know how to dance, but they learned to dance salsa
in spite of their Latin (Mexican) background.
LA and
Miami are not exactly cultural places, just ask Woody Allen. If you
want to learn about music and culture, you should go to New York.
If want to hang out with the stars and have a good time, LA and Miami
are for you. All the Cuban musicians before the Revolution went to
New York to influence the musicians to start off the popularity of
Latin music there. Because New York had the best musicians in Jazz
and Classical music in the United States, not Miami. That answers
your question why didn't Miami become a center of salsa. Cuban musicians
went to New York to teach and influence the young Puerto Rican musicians
who become famous later on. The Cubans who went to Miami after the
Revolution were not artists or musicians. Salsa is a street dance
from the African and lower classes of Cuba. I don't think the white
Cuban middle managers and middle class knew anything about creating
and preforming music. I hear in Miami now there are some great Cuban
musicians, this was not the case in the 1970's (there were a few,
but isolated. And their music suffered from being away from Cuba).
But your
question is strange. There are over a million Italians living in Toronto.
Why hasn't Toronto become a center of opera or bocce ball in the world?
February
27, 2003 --
People should be able to dance what they feel and
or enjoy and not what people perceive and want. That is what's great
about living in a democracy. Gender nor where the roots of the dance
originated should make a difference. If someone wants to be true to
the roots then that's fine. But to say that they have to dance a particular
style is wrong. Remember, even Cuba had it's influences (Africa, Spain,
etc...).
Why then stop dancers who are non-Cuban or non-African
from learning and dancing Afro-Cuban dances?
Sorry, I don't mean to be flippant but it doesn't make sense to have
to dance a particular style. To be the best dancer you can be you
have to have an open mind and be open to other influences.
What you want and what is happening in the scene are
different.
I can relate with you on a certain level. When I first started dancing
no one worried about what count you were on. Later, when there was
what people call the Colombian style, Miami and NY style, there was
a visible difference. I thought that was great and enjoyed watching
everyone dance their own styles. Today I still enjoy watching everyone
dance but you can see that all the styles are merging closer and closer
together. Besides dancing on different timing everyone is starting
to look the same.
This
is where the Pro-Cuban or Pro-Columbian instructors need to step in.
Instead of complaining about the different styles they need to promote
what they love to teach.
The only problem with this is that students or potential students
see the flash, which is what the want to learn first. Most don't care
about the music nor the technical aspects of the dance.
COMPETITION:
The problem or should I say inexperience with most
people watching, and even at times judging, a competition is that
they act on emotion and not on merit. What constitutes a competition
or a good performance? What type of a competition is it? What is the
judging criteria? Is it the best show or the best all around dancers
(technical/timing/connection/showmanship/choreography/etc....)? Do
the competitors know what is expected of them?
There are a lot of factors that are involved. The competitors should
be well aware what is expected of them in order to win, Many times
the audience doesn't know and most likely is not as qualified as the
judges in choosing the winners.
I won't get into any more debates on Vladimir but
am glad that he's teaching both dance and music classes.
FYI..... At the end of this little novel I've included part of an
email, from DJ Billy Bryans, which highlights some Afro-Cuban classes
(dance or music).
Note that Vladimir, UnitedSalseros and others are teaching Afro-Cuban
Classes (dance/music).
UnitedSalseros is working with the talented Ana Machado...and yes
she's CUBAN.
As far
as pricing goes there may be many factors that influence pricing.
- Some instructors get studio space for free whereas others pay between
$10/hr to $50 an hour + there may be other overhead expenses
- There are more than 1, 2 or more instructors teaching the class
at the same time
- You may be comparing studio classes vs. Club Classes
Though
UnitedSalseros may be one of the schools that charges a little higher
than most we, along with others, feel that we also give out the most.
On the
flip side our club classes are some of the cheapest (range from $5-$8
may even include a light buffet dinner) and includes entrance to the
clubs.
***********************
WANNA BE A RUMBERO?
A 'Rumbero' is someone with a good ear for afro-Cuban music who can
improvise their dance moves along to the conga player in the 'streetdance'
styles of Cuban rumba music.
Starting on Sunday
March 2nd, Vladimir Aranda is conducting a five week series of classes
on both the dance and the music of Cuban rumba. Vladimir will be teaching
the three basic components of rumba, the Yambu, the Columbia, and
the Guaguanco in terms of their movements and their basic rhythms
as applied to the Congas, Chequeres, Cucharas, and Clave. The class
is open to beginner and advanced student alike.
The influence
that rumba has on both timba and salsa music is endless, and as Vladimir
says "this class will only help you to have more body movement
and also to hear and understand the concept of Rumba and salsa."
Each
class lasts 1 and 1/2 hours. The fee for the five week series is $70
dollars,
WANNA
BE A RUMBERO WITH AFRO-CUBAN MOVEMENTS?
Meanwhile, United Salseros are holding a set of Afro-Cuban Salsa Styling
Workshops with Cuban dance teacher Ana Machado who will be teaching
authentic Afro-Cuban movements, many of which are based on traditional
Cuban dances and on various dance rituals. The
cost for five sessions which includes a course outline and video is
$125
(Kudos
to United Salseros for bringing a Cuban dance teacher into the 'salsa'
environment, and recognizing that Toronto, in 2003, is a very Cuban
city. What next, Timba at Berlins?)
DANCE MOVEMENTS?
Layah Davis, percussionist for both Samba Squad and the West African
Drum Ensemble Bolokolen, is conducting a West African Dance Class
series starting on Monday, February 17th .Open to all levels of dancer,
students will learn dances based on traditions from the west african
nation of Guinea. accompanied by live drumming from members of Bolokolen.
The
cost is: $60 for 6 weeks or $12 per class.
WANNA
BE A RUMBERO WHO PLAYS AFRO-CUBAN PERCUSSION?
Mario del Monte Jr.,(aka Mayito) virtuoso percussionist man about
town, is bringing the CUBAN PERCUSSION SCHOOL to Lula Lounge every
Saturday afternoon beginning on March 1st, and every Saturday thereafter
from 3 to 6 pm, The class is open to all ages and all levels of experience.
There will be a FREE Open House Introduction Saturday February 22.
Students should bring their own instruments including congas, drums,
bongos, claves, timbas, guiros and percussion instruments. You've
seen Mayito in at least half the bands in town, he is an experienced
instructor, and this is your chance to get some hands-on experience
with afro-cuban percussion
Cost
of classes: Single Class 15.00 Class of Four 50.00
March
3, 2003 -- Response to Timba
Timba,
in my last email I forgot to address the assessment issue.
Don't get me wrong, as I'm not jumping on the pro-Vladimir wagon or
anything. However, I do agree with you and with what Vladimir does
with regards to assessments. I also feel it's wrong to charge someone
for an assessment which can be done in a matter of minutes. This is
the reason that UnitedSalseros also does FREE assessments to students
that would like to be in a level higher than 1 (we only have 3 levels).
If need be, we also do assessments for our Level 1 students. However,
we can usually determine where in our multi-level class the student
belongs during our warm-ups.
Another
thing I'd like to point out to you and many others that are not aware
of this.... Levels are just numbers. One particular school's level
can be totally different in another school. i.e. We've had and still
get students that state that they are in another schools Level 5 or
higher but when they come to us they are in our higher level 1 or
two. Does this mean we’re better? No! Though I’d like
to think we are amongst the finest schools, each school has it’s
own way of categorizing their levels. Which may not be in line in
how another school categorizes their levels. Sometimes the best thing
to do is either do a drop-in class, if available, or perhaps see if
the school will allow you to watch the class.
It doesn't
matter the level as long as you are learning what you need to become
a better dancer (technicality, musicality, timing, etc...)
Hopefully
this will enlighten some students.
Live,
Love, Laugh y Salsa
Rene
March
11, 2003 -- Cuban or L.A salsa
Well, I've been "studying" these two different
ways of dancing, and after some discussions with my friens salseros,
I can say I prefer LA salsa. I think it's much more incredible, with
more movement and more "visual". L.A salsa has more power
and strength, and I think that's what atract people.
This
Friday I'll see Franky Martinez in live here in Fuenlabrada, my city,
and after watching to the spectacle, I'll see if I continue with my
opinion. Kisses!!! -- Danny from Spain
August
19 , 2003 -- May I step in?...
<<
Now all the other comments you have made you are only throwing names
around, but you fail to answer my question about music there for since
you know so much about salsa, different styles of dancing, music,
and casino or Cuban dancing, please anwer the fallowing questions.
>>
As BUCKWHEAT
would say..."O'Tay!"
<<
1 How does Jazz influence Timba? >>
By the
phrasing and in the improvisation, which is the essence of Jazz....
<<
2 How does Jazz influence salsa? I really want to hear this one because
you mentioned it. >>
Once
again, the phrasing of the horns, Piano, Bass and even percussion
can apply Jazz rudiments while in Clave. Listen to albums by Tito
Puente, Eddie Palmieri, Ray Barretto, Richie Ray (His piano solo's
in SONIDO BESTIAL for example) to name a few, for a taste of the Jazz
influence in Salsa....
<<
3 What is the musical difference between clave of son and guaguanco?
>>
A momentary
Pause in the Guaguanco clave....
<<
4 How is columbia (not cumbia) use in casino? >>
The
same as Guaracha and other syles. With 2 feet...PU-DUM CRASH!....
<<
5 what is rumba and what other three dances fall under Rumba. >>
La Rumba
are rhythmical patterns that were developed by African Slaves, within
Cuba, but nevertheless by the Africans.
The
three Rhythms and the dances applied to them are El Guaguanco, El
Yambu y La Columbia...
<<
6 Where does the name Casino come from? >>
From
the guy who wrote the book Goodfellas.
No just
kidding. It stemmed from the Dancehall/Social Clubs aka Academias
de Baile in Cuba....
<<
7 What is the Tumbao of son, songo, and timba? >>
The
tumbao of SON. SONGO & TIMBA are all the same
{BUP-BUP...
CHIK BUP-BUP... CHIK BUP-BUP CHIK... BUP-BUP... TUN-TUN CHIK-CHIK}
<<
8 What is la cascara, it is in every salsa song? >>
The
banging of sticks against the sides of el timbal.
95%
of the time...
<<
9 what is an estribillo? >>
The
principio...
<<
10 why is son dance a contratiempo? >>
Because
that is the key to dancing & playing AFRO-CUBAN SON. Your foundation
happens to be an off-beat rhythm pattern known as clave. (3/2). To
be ON CLAVE, you have to play/Dance against and not with La Clave.
May sound weird but that's the science revolving around CLAVE. And
if you know this then you know that dancing ON 1 esta fuera de clave....
<<
11 what is the term use to discribe the way the danzon is danced?
>>
Danzonete.
The
rhythm pattern in the Danzon being played prior to the MAMBO is called
a baqueteo...
<<
12 If you wanted to use clave of guaguanco in son or salsa how would
you do it? >>
Play a Son Montuno and after the Montuno Section (MAMBO), switch gears
and go into a Guaguanco pattern to play RUMBA CLAVE. If you'd like
to hear an example of this just listen to Eddie Palmieri's OYELO QUE
TE CONVIENE featuring Lalo Rodriguez on vocals...
<<
13 what is the difference between the casino of today and the one
from the 50's (not casino round) >>
More turns and more structure...
<<
14 tell me the difference and similarities between conga, merengue
and traditional Cumbia. >>
Each
have their own definitive tempo/speed. Merengue and Cumbia share &
utilize similiar instruments. Each use a Call & Response. Each
are percussion driven and each have their roots from both Native,
European and African cultures....
<<
15 What is a seis chorreao from Puerto Rico and explain it musically?
>>
Seis Chorreao is similiar to a Cuban Son. Each use call and response.
The singer sings a refrain twice and ends it with something different
followed by the chorus. Usually one or more guitars, bongo, maracas,
guiro, and often times a muted trumpet to add solo improvisation along
with the guitar or cuatro and or tres....
<<
16 how was the cha cha cha born and who invented it? >>
The
CHA-CHA-CHA was created by Violinist Enrique Jorrin in Cuba. The inspiration
for the term was due to the dancers scraping of the feet as they danced
to this new musical style....
<< 17 and last who is Chango and Yemeya. How do you dance to
them?. >>
Chango
is a street hustler from the Bronx and Yemaya was one of the last
great graffitti artists to get busted.
No just
kidding again.
Chango
and Yemaya are two Religious deities from the Yoruba/Santeria religion.
You
wanna know how to dance to both Yemaya and Chango?
Montao'.
If you know about that ype of stuff you'll understand what I mean...
<<
I have been to LA nad i have walked the street of El Barrio and visited
the clubs in N.Y where i have met a lot of great people and dancers
so i have seen it with my own eyes. >>
Until
you dwell in these locations for more than a few days or weeks (I'm
talking YEARS) you'll never truly KNOW what makes any of these towns
click or fully experience what the town has to offer culturally and
musically related to SALSA. No one is an expert of a region unless
they've lived and breathed in it throughout their life...
Richie
"Rumbero"
August
29 , 2003 -- US styles vs. Cuban style etc. Response to the Jamaican
DJ
Dear Jamaican DJ:
The story you told us about the amateur contest was very funny, but
I'm afraid you didn't understand why the Cuban fellows chose you guys
as the winners. They most likely chose you as their way of showing acceptance
to you, and to your interest in our culture, etc. Maybe you also encountered
some standard Cuban dancers who couldn't do much against the flashiness
of you style, but still, don't forget what they told you. Like you yourself
put it "Many of the Cuban patrons admitted that, even though they
did not like how we danced..." Don't forget this point; they tld
you they did not like how you danced, so there was something different
going on there. Either were just trying to be kind to you, or the competitors
were standard or below. I don't want you to feel upset by this, but
honestly, if I had been to that competition I highly doubt you would
have won...and I am not professional. Most Cubans simply don't like
US Salsa styles. They don't relate to that. So my advice for you is
not to misinterpret that simple act of kindness; I've also been to one
of those contests where we've purposedly not given the prize to the
best dancer. El Conguero
