January 8, 2003 - respond to Francisco and Rumbero

You have made some of the most stupid remarks i have ever heard, so far you have answer my questions whith questions and you seem to tell half the truth to make your selfs look good,ok so far you have stated the fallowing:

Son is not Cuban music
Timba is not Cuban music.
Songo is not Cuban music.
If you take out Cuban influence from salsa it would still be the same.
And my favorite, mexicans were dancing to mexican music that has la clave, and it is dance with a quick quick slow step before the 1920's. what mexican music is this?
And the last one ,If you dance el son a contratiempo you are of la clave.

Any body that knows music would think that you are crazy by making such statements, once it is proven that salsa is really Cuban music you start by now trying to question cuban music it self, what are you going to say next that mambo, cha cha cha and guaguanco came from L.A?

Let me start by telling you something you don't know, so you can put aside your Son story of Teodora Ginez, as you know Cuba, Dominican, Haiti and Jamaica have a strong African influence, back then all of this countries were making their own music, One of this rhythms that all of this countries were playing with had the sound of Son but they were not the same, they had their distictive sounds, reasons were because some island were influence by Spain, France or Portugal, nobody copied each other, not Jamaica from Cuba or Dominican from Haiti or Cuba from Dominican, a style of music that comes very close to son montuno is not the Dominican music but the Jamaican MENTO, it did not have la clave of course, or the tress, they did use bongos and other jamaican instruments but Jamaica did not copy Cuba or the other way around, all of this countries were making their own music, after all Africa was the big influence in this countries that is way some of this music would have alot of similarities and differences.

Yes it is true that alot of slaves emigrated to Santiago de Cuba but who ever said that Alejo Carpentier was a musician or a musicologist is very wrong, and it shows how little they know about Cuban culture, Alejo was probably one of the best Cuban novelists, there for his story of the Dominican lady was not true, After Alejo wrote that story a very well known Cuban musicologist by the name of Alberto Mogercia went to Santiago de Cuba to investigate this story at the time that Santiago de Cuba was the capital of Cuba,and he did not found any evidance that this lady even existed, the song of the mateodora is not even a Son and all of this information can be found on the book written by Alberto Mogercia called La Selva Oscura.
This information that i have given you on music is something that you have to learn in school in Cuba if you are going to be a musician or a dancer, also by talking to other dancers and musicians from Jamaica, Haiti and Dominican the stories do match, so don't think that this is a Cuban one sided story.

Now even though all of this countries have their roots in Africa, Spain, France E.T.C, the music that was invented belongs to each of this countries,exp, El Son and Danzon are musica popular y traditional Cubana, Jamican Mento and reggae are Jamaican not African, Dominican perico ripiao is dominican not African.

El Son and el Danzon is always in evolution, that is why we have cha cha cha,danzonete,mambo, songo and timba.
About your songo coments, the drum kit is american but they are using it to play Cuban rhythms not heavy metal, and timba has had rap and jazz influence but the percussion is Cuban and i don't mean where the instruments were made, i'm talking about the music, the mayor music influence in timba is cuban music.

About your Santana commentes, he has always said that he uses alot of Cuban percussion in some of his songs with gittar solos.

About the song Pedro navaja my friends, it does not matter that at the beginig of the song there are people talking or shouting in N.Y, even if the same song were to talk about the streets of China it does't change the fact that the music use for this is the modern son, it starts with the congas doing 2x4, clave of 3x2, cascara, it has it's montuno and also it's estribillos, all of this is Cuban Music
It is like if you took a Cuban car and change it's plates to N.Y plates and added an extra head light and now you called it salsa a N.Y Rican creation.
You say that salsa rhythm is a creation of Puerto rican, Jews and Black Americans, American jews were only consumers of the music not creators and than you contradict your self by saying that salsa is not a rhythm but a comcept, so i have to ask the dj to play me a comcept? or you mean a conept with Cuban music, that since it is play by Puerto Ricans in N.Y and every now and then they mixed with bomba or plena now it is new creation, why don't you defend a real creation of blacks,jews,Puerto ricans and Italians like DISCO music, that is a real creation of the melting pot of N.Y

About your sonero mayor, a great singer is someone that can master differnt rhythms like Benny More did, Ismael Rivera could not sing like Beny, Beny More always said (yo canto de todo) son, guaracha, danzon, mambo, bolero, guaguanco and Santeria music, Ismael could not come close to master non of this rhythms like el Beny. The story of sonero mayor goes like this,a young Ismael Rivera was intimidated to go on stage because of Beny More, so El Beny anounced him as el sonero mayor to build his confidence and now you are taking this to try to win your little battles of who is better, don't get me wrong Ismael was great but he was not close anywhere to Beny More, just listen to the recordings and compare their voices.

you say that if i dance to el son a contra tiempo i'm of la clave, i think you should stick to your N.Y salsa shines and don't talk about something you think you know, keep dancing on your 2, Atravesado and of la clave.
One of the most cellebrated dancers from the Palledium days Mr Luis Flores a.k.a La maquina in an interview was asked by Marla Friedler, do you dance on the 2? and he answer,don't talk that shit to me the 1 or 2, i dance with la clave a contra tiempo. if you say that we are of la clave than you heve to whrite cubas dance history all over again,the drums of the tumbadora family are three, the tumbadora, tres golpes y quinto,this are trully an AfroCuban invention in Cuba not in Africa, they are call tumbaoras because they make the tum tum sound when you play them(open notes),a tumbao is a rhythmic pattern play in the tumbadoras, many different rhythms have different tumbaos,in salsa you can't scape those tum tums,the open tones of salsa tumbao fall on the 4 and the beat between the 4 and the 1,your dancing on 2 says that they are dancing the proper way because you make use of something no one can hear the slap of the tumbao(golpe seco)when it is used falls on the 2 step, the truth is that if you take the slap out of the tumbao it makes no difference but if you take the tum tum out of the tumbao and leave the slap you are playing nothing, the slap is insignificant to the tumbao.

Last, i want to tell you that Tito Puentes remarks are very inportant because he represents all of those great all timers, Cuban and Puerto Rican like Cachao,Mario Bauza e.t.c, he always said i play Cuban music not salsa just like all of those old timers. I remember one time when i met El Potato at the Latin Quarter in N.Y and he said to me (la salsa es la musica cubana mal tocada)of course that is not true, i don't want to take nothing away from those great Puerto Rican musicians, then i told him that i went to a salsa museum and i saw a picture of him wearing a Puerto Rican hat and he said to me,i have to if i want to sell my music, before in the 60s or 70s you could not say that this is cuban music because they would call you a communist and now you can not say it is cuban music because Puerto Ricans get offended,they have build an identety around cuban music, to go up to them now and tell them that it is cuban music is like traying to take their identity away.
Now if you are going to come out with Wille Colon or something like that don't, because Willie is your god and yes he is great but he was a baby when Patato was already playing and changing the history of cuban music and it's instruments.

Remember that when someone writes a a tango song in Germany or China and the lyrics are in a different lenguage it is still known that tango comes from Argentina.

I'm not going to change your minds and that is ok so i live you with your salsa de tomate y me voy con el son. Vladimir

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January 9, 2003 - Which style, Cuban? Colombian? LA? NY? TO?

I think people need to be less particular about which style is better or worse... and remember the real roots of dancing... which is LET LOOSE AND JUST HAVE FUN PEOPLE!! Anonymous

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January 15, 2003 - which style is better

Hi my wonderfull people of salsa, What i'm reading is something that i know would happen. I'm living in holland but i'm born and raised in Aruba, so i've been traveling to latin-america since the age of 10 and back then there were no salsacongresses. People use to dance and that's it. As long you knew how to do the basic steps. Now that i'm living and teaching in holland i see the same mentality that i'm reading about.Cuban, PuertoRican, L.A. N.Y style are just different styles of dancing the music and the phrase "which one is better" should not be used at all. What is happening is that there are specific styles that are catching the attention of modern dancers so that they can be more creative and make salsa more interesting for those who have never danced or seen salsa before.I've been trough al those styles and believe me i still dance all those styles untill today, because i dance the way i feel to dance at that moment.So as long your dancing with feeling, it's all good.All salsaproducing cultures deserves credit, but it's just that some are doing a much better job promoting it. -- Kenneth

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January 16, 2003 - SALSA - CUBAN, PUERTO RICAN, NEWYORICAN, COLUMBIAN?????

Anonymous hit the nail right on the head when he said that all of you are losing sight of what Salsa is and what's it about. From a cultural and historical point it's important to know the origins and influences. To the average joe out there learning how to dance it's not.

Vlad/Francisco, you may both be knowledgable about music and history. I won't argue that. In fact you've enlightened me on a few topics. However, WHO IS RIGHT???????
I'm pretty sure you both are biased and wouldn't concede even if the proof where in your face.

TELL ME... Since this debate has been going on longer than we've all been born do you think that this debate will be resolved now? I DON'T THINK SO.

As to doing the research... Both Cubans and Puerto Ricans/New Yoricans will say they invented/revolutionized Salsa. Obviously they would be biased. Even if you had an outside source I doubt that you'd come up with an answer since everything seems muddled when it comes to the history of Salsa.

Is Salsa from Cuba or Puerto Rico/N.Y.? I don't think that most people will argue that the origins are from Cuba. This is my opinion and that of many others. But that's all it is (an opinion). But even then it was influenced. The music has evolved since their origins to what it is today. That being different, with some similarities, that Cuba calls Son/Salsa. In fact if you were to listen to today's Cuban music or Salsa for that matter to that of the Palladium days you will also notice the difference. This is evolution. Is it commercial? Maybe. But enough people enjoy that it doesn't matter. Just enjoy it. If not then listen to something else you enjoy.

Do I like Cuban Salsa? Yes.
Can I dance Cuban? Not very well. But I plan on taking Afro-Cuban classes and becoming a better dancer. Not just in Afro-Cuban but also Puerto Rican/N.Y. style. One should always be a student.

AGAIN this is my opinion, I love the Puerto Rican/N.Y. styling, fluidity, and partner work. I also love the the way the Cubans move. Very earthy, grounded and musical. However, most Cubans are not very good at partner work (talk from experience) and therefore not easy to dance with.

I learned how to dance Columbian/Cumbia style. Then L.A., Casino (Miami style) and then N.Y./Puerto Rican. In fact I'm still trying to master the styling, turn patterns and shines the latter. One should never stop being a student. You see I do appreciate different forms of Dance/Music and though I'm an instructor I am not above taking classes.

Vladimir, I've been told that you tell people that some of us Salseros can't dance or dance like ducks? Is this because they don't dance the way that you think Salsa should be danced? Perhaps the same can be said of you. By the way more than one person has stated this to me.

You see I'm out there promoting and teaching Salsa. I teach what I know and what people want to learn. In fact I've been promoting and introducing Salsa to a whole new generation of people shortly after I started dancing.

This is what you should be doing if you are such a fanatic about Cuban music.
If you are so pro Cuban style then get your ass out there and promote it. Not by bad mouthing people but learning some tact and then telling them what you think that Salsa is. Otherwise you'll turn people off FAST.

Vlad, you are a very talented dancer. I won't take that away from you. But you can also be very arrogant, even before you were into Cuban music. I'd love to see you teach Cuban style and change the dance scene. That's what Toronto is. A melting pot with different races, cultures, religions, etc.. Just do it the right way.

Below are some previous comments that were posted in the past. They are from people who are fed up with this debate. Not because it's not educational but because it goes round and round and no one seems to provide any real proof/evidence. The comments are not very nice but the point is felt by many. In order to get people to listen you need to talk to them and not lecture or belittle.

For myself I'm not 100% sure where Salsa it's from I'm more concerned on where it's going and the fact that I love it.

Hopefully this doesn't offend too many people or have too many grammatical errors as I didn't get a chance to proof it but take it as it is.

Peace.
Live, Love, Laugh y Sala
Rene of UnitedSalsero
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Wow!!...Vladimir and Andrew... you guys kill me.... two idiots who think they know so much... how a discussion on dancing went to Fidel Castro and "american wannabes" is beyond me.... Andrew is one of those sterotypical closed minded brainwashed Puerto Ricans... and Vladimir is exactly like the Cubans in the U.S. with their holier than thou attitude.... Some things never change.... You both need to go back to your respective Islands... and get an attitude readjustment.... because back there where everyone is so friendly, loving and humble... no one cares what you guys are arguing about!...they just dance.... Thank Cuba for inventing such a beautiful music... Thank Puerto Rico for making it what it is today!....( dummies!!) -- Alfie - a Rican in TO!

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December 5, 2002 -- Can we all just get along!

J.T to Vladimir,

What about if you get your ass out of your house and get a life, your expending to much time at home, I don't understand how a guy from BOLIVIA get some defensive about a country he doesn't belong to, my friend why don't you talk about your own culture feel proud of it. May be we can learn more about it.

Just dance and enjoy your life, there is enough problems and issues in this world to create more, instead, why don't you go out make some friends, maybe that way you will become less anger about the all salsa issue, THE REAL SALSERO IS THE ONE WHO ENJOY LIFE AND LET OTHERS ENJOY IT AND KEEP HIS MOUTH SHUT!

With stupid discussions like this what you and the rest of the close minded individuals are doing is scaring people away to get involved in the beautiful world of salsa...

I'M SERIOUS GET A LIFE, IT’S BEAUTIFUL OUT THERE! Peace! J.T.

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January 16, 2003 - SALSA - CUBAN, PUERTO RICAN, NEWYORICAN, COLUMBIAN?????

Anonymous hit the nail right on the head when he said that all of you are losing sight of what Salsa is and what's it about. From a cultura

January 17, 2003 - Response to Vladimir - discussion on NY/Cuba - Origins of Salsa

Vladimir’s knowledge and affinity for Cuban music must be a recent phenomenon. The defunct Toronto show, Salsa Plus, had an episode with Vladimir (March/April, 1999) teaching Casino. When he was questioned as to how he was counting the steps, he replied with his answer, and then he told the audience about the different styles of Salsa: 1) Latin Ballroom-style (BTW, Salsa has not officially entered the Latin Ballroom syllabus, like Cha-Cha, Paso Doble, etc.); 2) Columbian-style; and 3) Cuban style. There was no mention of the most obvious New York style, Puerto Rican style, or even L.A. style (L.A. style was in full effect back then, that was the year that Albert Torres started the first West Coast Salsa Congress; groups like Los Rumberos and Salsa Brava were touring the globe). I was surprised and rather curious as to why he was not aware the latter predominant dancing styles. One could argue that at that time his knowledge did not expand beyond the confines of Havana.

Timba music is Cuban music, but take away the American HipHop/Rap/Rock and what you are left with is Son.

Son is Cuban music, but ALSO note that Cuban music is Afro-Spaniard-French music.

Vladimir, if Salsa is really Cuban music then why wasn’t Miami the center of the Salsa world given that Castro closed off the musical exchange b/w Cuba and the U.S.? Or better yet, why isn’t Cuban Miami the “modern son” capital of the world? Where are all these Cuban bands that play “modern son”??

The African genre of Zouk incorporates Cuban music, in fact, a lot of West and Central African music is influenced by Cuban music. So why are you Vladimir, using your logic, not screaming to our African brothers that Zouk is really Cuban music? Using your line of thinking, you would probably think and say that Zouk is “musica Cubana mal tocado” (Cuban music played badly - Patato’s reference to Salsa music). Quick!, please inform all the West African musicians that they are really playing Cuban music! BTW, that quote from Patato is pure nonsense. Why don’t you really say why Patato had to disguise as Puerto Rican?

In Salsa, if you take away the non-Cuban influences, you are left with Son. That is why Salsa is what it is, a concept. A salsa can start with a bolero, then go to son, then to bomba, jazz, or danzon The combinations are endless.

Salsa is all about how the instruments are arranged and incorporated into the music. I’ll borrow an analogy from Richie Rumbero: you know the difference b/w Celia Cruz with the Sonora Matancera and her with Pacheco in NY? The answer is Jazz.. Listen to Azabache - “Batman y Spiderman” it starts with plena, then goes into son at a violent and lightening speed (something that in pre-Castro Cuba was never done), then it goes into some Reggae, Rap, and towards the end it goes into some Jazz. That is Salsa Vladimir; that is why it is a concept and that is why it is not Cuban music because there is no Cuban record, band, musician, song, etc., in pre-Castro Cuba that did this. No “modern son” band has ever done this.

For everyone’s information, it was the Cuban exile community in the U.S. that created this draconian form of musical “Stalinism”. They were the ones that were making sure that any musical reference to Fidel’s Cuba was forcibly “swept under the rug”. In this context, I ask you who were the real Communists? The exile community did a way a better job than Fidel could of ever imagined. History lesson: Fidel banned a lot of Cuban music when he took power, the government did not want the “capitalist” pre-Castro music to INFECT the minds of the populace and possibly increase the likelihood of a counter-revolution.

Vladimir, you have not proven anything. All you have shown is that the son is a major influence in Salsa music. Thank you for rediscovering the wheel Einstein. Every salsa musician acknowledges that son is a primary influence in Salsa. In all my years of researching and studying the history of this music, I have never come across any evidence of salsa musicians not acknowledging the Cuban influence in Salsa. You make it sound like there is this grand conspiracy to consciously hide the Cuban influence but in fact it is the other way around, Cubans do not properly acknowledge and respect the work of the NY Puerto Ricans.

The author of the article, “El Polemico tema del la Salsa”, should practice what he preaches and accord respect to all the numerous Boricuas who made this music the international sensation that it is today. It is true what Machito said, “If it were not for the Puerto Ricans I would not be here.” I would further add to that and say that if it were not for Puerto Ricans the evolution and transformation of son music would have never happened; everyone would still be dancing to and playing “Son del La Loma”. See the Buena Vista Social Club album for a taste of what 1950s Cuban music was like (for those of you have never heard 1950s Cuban music before).

The countries of Haiti, DR, Cuba, and Puerto Rico had son music. You are very ignorant to say that Puerto Rico had no variant of the son. As back as the early 1900s, PR was playing traditional son music.

In 1905, Boricuas were major players in the American Jazz scene. Mario Bauza even acknowledged that when he arrived in New York, Puerto Ricans were involved in Jazz.

You are wrong when you say that none of the aforementioned Caribbean countries influenced each other. If that was the case, then how is that musicians and dancers in Jamaica, Haiti and Dominican Republic would know about Cuban musicology and “La Selva Oscura” as you claim is the case. You are contradicting yourself. It is very convenient for your faulty argument to say that in the beginning these countries did not musically influence each other and then turn around and say BUT they all know each other’s musical genres and histories. The truth is that the Son, Afro-Spaniard music, was spread throughout the Caribbean. Cuba just happened to be one of the countries where it became very predominant in their music. That does not mean they invented it.

Vladimir, if it were not for Larry Harlow, Celia Cruz would of stayed in Mexico. It was because of this “judio maravilloso” that Celia Cruz came out of retirement in Mexico and left for NY. Harlow wanted to record with her. American Jews played a big role in Salsa and to say that they had no role just further illustrates your lack of knowledge in Salsa history. BTW, before Celia joined La Matancera, they had Myrta Silva, a Puerto Rican, as their lead singer. Well, what do you know, even back in those days Puerto Ricans were involved.

That most celebrated dancer from the Palladium that you quote was dancing to Big Band Mambo, not Salsa. He did not say “I dance to clave contra tiempo”, he really said “I dance to clave”. Again, another falsification to make your fallacious argument look good. Since when have you viewed NY dancers as being “celebrated”? When it is convenient would be my answer.

Tito Puente played Big Band MAMBO, not Salsa. His comments are true in the reference to Mambo music at that time. Since when have you heard Tito mix a plethora of styles into one song? His music was straight-ahead Mambo.

Bauzo, Machito, Chano Pozo, all became who they were when they left Cuba and went to NY to play with Jazz artists like Dizzy Gillespie and the Puerto Ricans. They would of never created and developed such music if they had stayed and Cuba.

It is interesting to note that in Salsa, Cubans are a tiny minority in terms of musical involvement. Most of participants in this music are non-Cuban latinos as well as non-latinos.

I leave you with a quote: “Salsa is to New York., What Apple is to Sauce.” -- Francisco

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