Dear TOsalsa! Salsa Dance Style Discussion

The Feedback....

January 8, 2002 - Barbara from Florida's response

support for PR salsa!

As a puerto rican salsera living in florida all i can say is that my love for salsa has cured every single malady my body and mind has gone through. once you get into dancing salsa nothing else matters and who cares who invented it or who's more authentic.

me personally i love dancing on "2" that is "power 2" which is strictly puerto rican style in ny. eddie torres came up with his own 2 which was easier for people to transition from "1" to "2". on the power 2 one has more time to do shines and put body style into it! california style which it is strictly on a "1", they look like they are on a race to get anywhere fast. The women look like puppets trying to follow these men which are on race of who dances faster. Dont get me wrong dancers like the vasquez brothers and others like them are very skillful at there acrobacies and that 's fine when you are performing for that's what it is a show. But i'm talking when social dancing is involved. if you go to a salsa club in california you need to wear a helmet for amateurs are doing all these maneuvers to their partners without knowing any technique.

i have witnessed fights due to pushing and hitting by accident. there have been a couple of cases where one girl broke her neck and others have been severely hurt due to this so called salsa style. i guess you can call me prudish or old-fashioned but i rather keep both of my feet touching the earth ! que viva la salsa para siempre ! la rumbera de florida

March 22, 2002

Dear Canadians,

As a belgian salsero, being 54 and having worked for a south-american-belgian based travel agency for 25 years, I often invited cuban girls for a 3 month stay in Europe.
We danced like h_ll, but one day she told me something I (and you too) should NEVER forget : John -she told me while following a salsa-course with me- "no vas a civilisar la salsa", i.e. "don't you try to civilize the salsa", what she meant was : 'stick to the rhythm'. And indeed, we europeans or you north americans, we don't have that basal feeling for rhythm (unless you have a bit of latin blood in your veins) and being more 'cerebral' we start inventing double turns, etc. Just teach a young Jew salsa, or a Hindi-youngster: without being racist, I think the body-expression of the salsa music is best done by those who got it in their culture, the other ones have no direct access to it and are in a way 'interpreting' it, as I was doing while dancing with la guapa cubana. But we both enjoyed it, as I hope you all will too.

John Voorspoels
Belgium

August 4, 2002 -- For Papi & Undereducated People in This Post.

This Johnny Almendra is An Idiot Not To Use Foul Language
Because I Don't Want To Give P.R. A Bad Image.
I Won't The Word That Starts With "F" To Describe This Little Stupid And Idiotic Character. People, Specially
You Papi Lugo. We Can't Overlook How Things Started OK.
We Must Really Dig In Deep And Find Out Who Started Copying
Who. We Must Go Back To 18th Century When Cuba Began
Copying Puerto Rico, Here's Where It All Got Started OK.
A Very Unique Puerto Rican Creation Dating Back To The
Start of 18th Century---The Danza. And What Do You
Know What Happens At The End of The Century Cubans
Come And "Create" A Rythm Called Danzon, My God The Danza
& Danzon Sound The Same!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just With Another
Name. Now Boleros, Our Puerto Rican Decimas Are Much Older
Than Boleros And Sound Pretty Much The Same, It Appears
Cuba Copied Us Once Again. And This Almendra Character,
I Wonder How Much The Miami Cuban Mafia Pays Him To
Say Stupidities------This Really Bugs Me, I Mean Don't
Get Me Wrong Some Cubans Are Good People, But The Majority
of Them Living In The U.S. Think They're Are Some Kind
of God. They're 100% Arrogant And Try To Erase Salsa's
History And Just Name It As Another Cuban Rythm. And It
Appears To Me, That Just How They Say Luis Miguel is
>From Puerto Rico, Which He Is Not, He's Mexican From
Veracruz. This Almendra Guy Must Be Cuban or Colombian
To Say That Puerto Rico Plays Cuban Music Except For
Bomba & Plena. Since Bomba & Plena Are Not The Only Rythms
>From P.R., Bomba, Plena, Decima, Seis (Over 59 Rythms of Sei's), Danza, Latin Soul, Boogaloo, Pata Pata, ETC.
And Let's Not Forget Salsa Because To Me (A True Puerto Rican) Salsa is A Blend of Afro-Cuban Rythms & Puerto
Rican Rythms, To Me Salsa is 50% Cuban & 50%
Puerto Rican---It's Equally Puerto Rican As It Is Cuban.
If Cuba is So Great Then Why Did Their
"Greatest Singer of All Time", Beny More, Had To Come From La Habana To Puerto Rico Just To Tell Puertorican Ismael Rivera He Was The Greatest Sonero Of All Time?. And You
Papi Whatever It is, is That Why Some of The Greatest
Cuban Artists Have Not Tried To Receive Credit For Their Supposed Ryhtm? The Following Artist Where Asked The Question is Salsa Just Another Cuban Rythm? They Were:

Cachao (The Man Who Created Mambo),
Machito (The King of Afro-Cuban Rythms)
Miguelito Valdes (One Of Cuba's Greatest),Etc.
And They Never Answered By Saying it Was 100% Cuban.
SO LIKE I SAID IT'S 50% CUBAN 50% PUERTORICAN OK.

September 5, 2002 -- salsa

I had the understanding that salsa was developed from son and son comes from cuba? I will never understand the difference from dancing on the 1 or the 2, but from watching dancers from different countries; cuba, columbia, venezuela, mexico, and north america, my favorate style would have to be cuban style, they have the most complicated turns, and they're not jumping around. this is just my opinion. Sherrie

September 5, 2002 -- LA style Salsa

I just found this website by accident and I started laughing at all the comments I read. I agree with those who dislike the LA style of Salsa. When I first came out here from Chicago, I thought that maybe I just didn't really know how to dance. I admit I am no expert, but when I went back to Chicago, I danced fine. But here in LA I am having problems dancing with the guys. I am paying attention to the sytles and there is a difference. I guess my style is Puertorican and unfortunately I can not find a non LA-style dance partner. Miriam

September 9, 2002 -- Supporting Lulita, la cubanita

I totally agree with Lulita re: Cuban music and dancing.
I had exposure to both Cuban style of dancing and ballroom and I have to say that ballroom is about counting, style, paterns where Cuban dancing has to come from the heart. I use to teach a little of both and the first thing that I tried to tell my students is that if you want to learn to dance you have to listen to the music 24/7. Let the music become part of you and everything else will follow. You can teach paterns to anybody but you have to feel the music and enjoy it to really dance. I always encourage people to go to Cuba and experiance the dancing there, it is unbelivable. Alex

September 11, 2002 -- "Salsa"(Es lo que hay!!!)

Yes Salsa did originate from the son . But salsa is salsa. This music was put down by many older musicians who upon hearing this style for the first time, and I quote said "what the hell are you playing", that's not music! That in itself explains alot. The fact that alot of muscians put this new type of sound down, I will not call it Mambo, Son,Guaracha, or Guaguanco. Hey don't argue w/me argue w/the musicians that refuse to accept it or call it the mention sounds. You have to give props to Willie Colon for he is a true pioneer of "Salsa".

I'm sorry but Richie Rumbero speaks w/ alot of validation.
Y QUE VIVA LA SALSA, El Lapiz

September 12, 2002

I feel everyone in this discussion should stop the claiming of salsa for one country or another and just go to the clubs and enjoy themselves. They argue over salsa's origins when in fact they should be looking to the future.

I have seen salsa evolve over the past fifteen years by dancing in clubs all over North and Latin America. I have attended the Salsa Congress in Puerto Rico (and others) for the last four years. Let me tell you: regardless of what or who was at the origin of salsa, dancers the world over have taken over this LIVING dance and have contributed to its growth and popularity. Today's salsa has ingredients as varied as Cumbia, Argentine Tango, Brazilian Samba, Lindy Hop Swing, Ballet Jazz, Quebradita, as well as Son, Guaracha, Plena, Guaguanco, Rumba, Huapango, etc.

There are dancers who learn by looking, others that learn by counting and others that learn by feeling. Who cares? These are all good ways to learn and any type of dancer can, if they want to, become a great salsero.

Having a specific style in salsa is fine, but to claim to have the true, or original style and not being ready to adapt and learn spells stagnation for a true salsero. Knowing that there is always something new to try or to learn is what keeps a really good dancer happy. And a really good dancer is not the want who knows more but the one that has more fun, because he can dance with absolutely anyone.

Salsa is about being happy. So let's close up this discussion by agreeing that we all love salsa and that the next time somebody in a club tells us "I dance the real salsa style", we can all smile at them and say "Sure honey, whatever, just shut up and dance!" Francisco

September 18, 2002 -- Vladimir's response to Francisco

Hey Francisco i like your additude on just dancing and having a good time after all that what it all about,but i don't think you understand what people are talking about with no disrespect to you belive me,se what happens is that what people call salsa in Cuba is call son or casino and it is part of cuban culture,the problem is not with people that don't know how to dance or that dance their own way or colombian salsa or puerto rican salsa,the problem is with people that teach this and that have no idea about this type of music,i speak spanish but i don't teach it,for eaxample if you go to the video clip of the salsa competition at bar one of salsation,sure they dance great and they put on a great show but the music they dance to on the #1 clip stared with gua guanco and that is something very cuban and it is dance very differently now that was a show but there are many people that will dance like that all the time ,show or no show and that will also teach it to dance like that,no disrespect to salsation becasuse to me they are great dancers and performers and instructors i don't know because i have never seen them teach ,but that style of dance some people might like it but me and others dont because it is not Latin and it is of la clave,some people might not like the way i dance it is also a matter of taste,i aslo think that as a professional dancer what makes me happy when i put a number together is to dance to what the music is ,if it is cumbia dance to cumbia,it it is timba dance to timba and also show the differnce to a student, the difference of a show and dancing for fun because i have seen many dancers dancing at clubs to show of, doing lifts and other things like that,in salsa songs this two words are often said,sonero and rumbero people have to find out first what those words really mean,for example gua guanco what i mention a the top is part of rumba so if you dance salsa how can you be a rumbero if you don't even know what that really means or how to dance to it -- Vladimir

September 20, 2002 -- Vladimir's response to Mikey

Mikey i read what you wrote and you are very wrong,i guess Cuba and Spain stold el danzon,danzonete,la contra danza,la habanera from Puerto Rico!!,so why is it that the danza if it was there first and it is very puerto rican why is it that no one knows what it is?i asked Puerto Ricans and they have never heard of it?you ask a cuban what danzon is and they will tell you,El bolero my friend comes from Spain first and it fallow the (castanuelas)as a percussion guide, the cuban bolero was different and it fallow la clave,and that change happend in Santiago de Cuba,the cuban bolero is differnt and unique,about Beny More and Ismael Rivera when did this happen ?were you there?i don't think you should say things like that because they were both great singers and to see which one you like better is a matter of taste of each individual,if you put them in front of one another Beny would compliment Ismael and Isamel would compliment Beny,I like Beny because he could sing a great Bolero,son,guaracha,cha cha cha,rumba or any other type of afro cuban rhythm including santeria music.Lets take away cuban instruments fron your salsa like el bongo,congas,los timbales,el sincero,el guiro and of course la clave,whay do you have left? does bomba,plena or seis chorreao use la clave of 3x2 or 2x3?, I don't hear panderetas in 99% of salsa songs,also some Puerto ricans say that salsa is from puerto rico and others say it is from N.Y,make up your minds!!how can it be Puerto rican if it was made in N.Y?,I guess puerto rico is the only country in the world that creates its music somewhere else.El Beny went to Puerto rico? don't open that door because if i count all of the musicians that go to Cuba even today to study music even famous ones that go very quietly from N.Y to study music we would have to writting all day,Any cuban musician can go to puerto rico or N.Y and play in any band with no problem,people would never think he is cuban at a show unless he was wearing a sign,but puerto ricans can't go to cuba and play with the bands there because the music there is to ahead of the salsa here in north america and it is something that if you ask me i would say yes i have seen it with my own eyes!because i have,and so have others!!Don't talk about how Cuba copied something from puerto rico because we would have to talk on how puerto rico copied cuban music and also many other things like the cuban flag -- Vladimir

September 20, 2002 -- Vladimir's response to Barbara

Hey Barbara we all have our taste on dancing but one question,if Eddy Torres invented dancing on 2 which he did why is it puerto rican if it happen in N.Y,if Eddy T was german would it still be puerto rican too!,I saw a video of Eddy T dancing for Oscar de Leon and this was a very old video and he is dancing very much casino,in Cuba people don't know what dancing on 1 or 2 is,people dance to la clave,dancing on one in cuba is dancing (a tiempo)and dancing on 2 is dancing a (contra tiempo)el son in cuba just like el changui or el danzon is danced always a contra tiempo,in Cuba old people will dance with you a tiempo half the song and a contra tiempo the other half,(sonero and la clave)are words that are use in allot of songs, but if you dance always counting ,those words will never be part of your dance,insted of people saying "ese es un sonero o un rumbero"they will now say "ese es un cuentista de pasos 1 o el 2".The great singers of the pass didn't need some one to count them in,they just would sing because they were soneros, and if it was rumba same thing,as a dancer you should know if you are dancing rhythmacally(ritmaticamente) with the music and also to dance with la clave in your head and if you were leading to make the choice of to dance a tiempo or a contra tiempo with the music and of course if you were fallowing to be able to fallow with no problem. Vladimir

September 28, 2002 -- congrats to Vladimir

I must say that I admire what Vladmir has said these debates. Rarely do you get a teacher who is not afraid to say what he thinks, to put it out on the line and have the knowledge and training to back it up.

I am a Phd. student in history with a particular interest in nationalism. I am doing a paper on the role of music, particlularly salsa has had on nationalism in Puerto Rico. What most people don't understand is that many times the traditions or culture of a particular nation are invented. Salsa is paraded around as something totally new invented or created by Puerto Ricans or Puerto Ricans in New York, even though the evidence is dubious at best. The "invention" served certain political and cultural needs at that time.

Later, the idea that Salsa was created by a variety of Latin Americans from different countries along with Americans gained currency. This served many purposes. It supposed to create a Pan-Latin feeling of unity or nationalism among Latin people living in the United States. It gave the impression that salsa was American, reflective of the strength of diversity in the United States, at a time when its diversity seemed to tear it apart at its seams.

I am not a music expert. But for me it seems interesting how salsa as cultural artifact is used to (consciously or unconsciously , who knows) to represent a particular nation or culture. That is why the debates on this website have been so heated. Nationalism is a powerful force.

P.S. I particulary liked Vladimir's thoughts on dancing on 1 and dancing on 2. In fact, dancing on 2 perhaps was not invented in New York after all. I have seen footage of early New York dancers and it seems to me also that they very much danced old style Casino.

October 21, 2002 -- Reply To Papi

Hello Rose, I Guess The One Who Really Needs Education Here is Papi Lugo. Like Willie Colon The Master of Latin Jazz Says "Being Cuban is Popular These Days And That's The Major Intent To Get Everything That's Latin And Put The Cuban Flag On It".

How Dare You Say Salsa is Cuban? Just How Dare Your Lugo? Give Your Address And I'LL SEND YOU PUERTO RICAN MUSIC, SO THAT YOU CAN BECOME MORE EDUCATED.

First Off I'll Put It To You This Way. Listen To Mi Gente By Hector Lavoe. "Mi Gente" Starts off As A Guaracha Then To A Son Montuno And Finally A Plena And That's What Salsa is All About Different Afro Rican/Cuban Rhythms Put To Together, However The Cuban Part is Not Relevent As The Cubans Did Not Create It. I Suggest You Take Trip To Puerto Rico Lugo And Research The Origins of Salsa Where Salsa Really Got Start It-San Juan, Puerto Rico.

And How Dare You Say Fania Copied? Don't Be Ridiculous Let Make Ask You Question Mister Know It All. Where Was The "Son" First Heard, Huh? AHHHHH WRONG ANSWER NO IT WAS NOT SANTIAGO de CUBA IT WAS SANTIAGO de los CABALLEROS, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. IN THE 1500's DOMINICANS TOOK THE SON TO CUBA WERE THE CUBANS STOLED THE SON. THE SAME THING HAPPENED WITH THE BOLEROS WHICH WERE ORIGINALLY HEARD IN PUERTO RICO SOMEWHAT ABOUT 20 YEARS BEFORE ARRIVING IN SANTIAGO de CUBA. BENY MORE? IS THAT WHY THE GREATEST ARTIST IN CUBAN MUSIC OF ALL TIME NEARLY HAD A HEART ATTACK WHEN HE HEARD PUERTO RICAN ISMAEL RIVERA, THE REAL FATHER OF SALSA SING. BENY COULDN'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO IMPROVISING LIKE ISMAEL IMPROVISED AND THAT'S WHY HE CALLED HIM "EL SONERO MAYOR" RIVERA'S "GUARACHAS" SOUNDED DIFFERENT THAN CUBAN GUARACHAS AND COME CLOSE TO CONTEMPORARY SALSA---VERY CLOSE---IN FACT INDENTICAL.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME THEN I'LL SEND YOU A CD WITH MAELO'S GUARACHAS. OH, BY THE WAY GUARACHA IS NOT CUBAN EITHER IT'S SPANISH.

P.S. NEVER COMPARE AN UNTALENTED LOCAL ARTIST LIKE INTERNATIONALLY POPULAR, HIGHLY RECOGNIZED AND TALENTED WILLIE COLON. WILLIE NEVER HAD STUDIES IN SINGING YET EL TUMBA CANA CUANDO CANTA. LEARN MY FRIEND LUGO LEARN. CUBA ISN'T WHAT IT SEEMS, IT'S JUST A COUNTRY THAT HAS MANAGE TO STEAL OTHER PEOPLE'S CREATIONS AND LOOK LIKE AN AN ANGELITO THAT'S WHY NO TIENEN MALICIA POR ESO SALEN CORRIENDO DE CUBA. AND TO ALL THE CUBANS OUT THERE, DO ME A FAVOR FIRST OVERTHROW CASTRO'S REGIME (YOUR PROBLEM AT HAND) AND THEN STEAL SALSA FROM US PUERTO RICANS. PERIOD. Andrew

October 23, 2002 -- respond to Andrew

I must tell you that you make puerto ricans look bad, man you have no idea of what you are talking about, you should learn more about music and i don't mean by getting every cd i mean by learning about music, and you should leave your hate for cubans a side, why are you so afraid of cuban people.

Mi gente coments, the song is 95% cuban music.
Does bomba or plena use the clave of 3x2 or 2x3 or 2x4 in the congas? i don't hear panderetas in 98% of the music you call salsa.
So it is ok to call salsa a song that has plena which usually only lasts for 8 bars in a song when the rest is son or songo again 95% cuban music ,so we have to rename cuban music salsa?, the mix of plena or bomba with son doesn't happen in every song it only happens in one or two songs in a cd of ten songs made by puerto ricans , what about the other 8 songs should we call it salsa too? and the other cds made by cubans or cds that have no bomba or plena should be name salsa too? (give me a brake).

Pease explain what salsa is musically?
Also to you salsa is from Puerto Rico and to other puerto ricans it is from N.Y make up your minds on how you are going to shape your lies.
El bolero comes from Spain first and it fallow the castanuelas as a percussion guide and in Santiago de Cuba it adopted la clave and it fallow la clave as a percussion guide and a new form of bolero was born, cubas bolero was different and unique.

I respect Ismael Rivera but how much do you know about son or guaracha to know who was better, are you a musician? because if you like Ismael Rivera that is good for you i might like red and you probably like pink but that is a matter of taste of each person, don't talk about el Beny like that because i have seen many records of Ismael Rivera and Tito Puente and other fania people pay tribute to Beny More, even the great Tito Puente a puerto rican said it him self(i don't play salsa i play cuban music, salsa is something you eat)so i gues you know more about music than Tito did!!who does Oscar d' Leon pay tribute to Ismael or Beny? Beny is the answer, all the cuban musicians that teach famous musicians from N.Y very quietlly about music(salsa to you) know that El Beny More was number #1 and right now the second best sonero in Cuba right now is Felix Baloy.

For every cd you could send to who ever i could send you 50 more with older cuban music, el son had people dancing in cuba in the 30s and 40s but in Puerto Rico you had your plenas and your bombas and that music doesn't sound or come close to for example the song (vamonos pal monte) people call it salsa dura, in Cuba it is known as son montuno which existed years and years before the name salsa came out and that is just one example because there are 100 more.

About your (come to Puerto Rico)I have been to N.Y and Puerto Rico and i didn't find a culture that was playing this music or dancing to it 80 years ago,all i found was comercial salsa, i went to the country side and no one knew how to play son or la clave or el bongo, but if you go to Cuba to el campo and you will find guajiros playind and dancing to guarachs and son what you call salsa.

About the son being from Dominican please!!el son in Dominican was very different, it did not even have claves or bongos, why didn't it flurish in Donican like it did in Cuba at the beggining of the century, because la gente popular in Dominican they flurished their own music which was perico ripiao(traditional merengue)next you are going to say that bachatas, boleros and vallenatos that they all sound the same to some puerto rican rhythm, and Dominicans be carefull before you know it some puerto ricans like this one are going to start saying that merengue is puerto rican or that they have pefected the music or some stupid excuse to steal Dominican music too,now they call Elvis Crespo the king of merengue and what about the real kings of merengue like Wilfrido Varagas or Josie Esteban or the great Jony Ventura?.

If Ismael Rivera ,Hector Lavoe,El Gran Combo or Cheo Feliciano were to read what you wrote they would probably ask you to say that you are not puerto rican,the only thing you have of boricua is the b of BOBO!!.

About you coments(ellos salen corriendo de Cuba) isn't N.Y and the rest of the states full of puerto ricans? if Puerto Rico is so perfect to you why don't puerto ricans stay home?
About (solve your problem of Fidel) yes Cuba has allot of problems,to some people Fidel is the problem and to others Fidel is not the problem but the United Satates is the real problem, what ever the case is remember that Cuba is not part of the states, the only LATIN country that wants and is part of the states is Puerto Rico(american wanabes) also remember that Cuba with big problems and all doesn't let the states test or throw bombs and kill people like the way they do it in Puerto Rico!Cuba doesn't have a Vieques, the americans canot even fire a single bullet in cuban territory
(big price to pay to be american!).

About (Cuba steals from every body) don't even go there because we would have to talk all day on how Puerto Rico has stold cuban culture and music including the CUBAN FLAG.

For people out there remember that this COME PINGA here doesn't speak or represent all the good puerto ricans out there, I'm to smart to hate puerto ricans out there because of some ignorant person. Remember(Cuba y Puerto Rico son de un pajaro las dos halas).and in Cuba and the rest of Latin america we enjoy your bombas and plenas or any jibaro music. -- Vladimir

P.S Willie Colon the king of Latin Jazz?!?!#@# what the h_ll are you talking about!! man you know nothing!!.

October 25, 2002 -- Response to Vladmir

Cuba Y Puerto Rico son las dos alas de un pajaro. Puerto Ricans & Cubans were so tight. We shared a lot in common both helped each other to liberate themselves from Spain. Puerto Rico never was liberated from Spain ,Cuba was. The two nations were so close (brotherhood) that the Puerto Ricans elected to have the same flag like their Cuban brothers. To show a form of solidarity, Something we lack today. The last time i check Cuba still had a its flag. So much for stealing. In fact we had one before that.

You said you went to Puerto Rico. Where? to el Condado in San Juan? Isla Verde? La Plaza del Caribe? Give me a break!!! Did you go to LLoren Torres en Santurce? Saint
Just en Carolina? La Canteras en Ponce? Hato Rey?Bayamon? Caye? Loiza? La Perla en San Juan? I doubt that!!!

We in Puerto Rico have so much "Salsa", that it's como el arroz blanco.which means we have too much "salsa".So much that in the Isla they are tired of it(But still love it)
that they listen to all type of music not just "salsa".

Another thing is we don't have just salsa. We also have Plena, Bomba, Bomba Y Plena, Sies Chorreao, Danza,Y Musica Jibara to name a few. That is why when you went to PR you did not find everyone into "salsa" or playing the congas Or bongos(you couldn't find anyone who could play these instruments) obviously you were looking in the wrong places. I know you are not trying to insinuate that we are not good musicians if so. How could you say that? When 90% of the musicians in Machito's band were Boricuas. The same goes for a lot of the other Cuban bands they had a lot of Boricua musicians. Even you know that.

You say "salsa" is son (i disagree)If "salsa" is son, than it is safe to say that salsa is el son Borincano. There is no way you can call it Cuban son since the Boricuas bring there own style & flavor. The styles are different. Why are you trying to discredit us? To discredit Cuba is not only wrong, but a "Salsa" sin. To discredit Puerto Ricans is a"salsa" felony. Don't get confused "salsa" started in NY by way of Boricuas. Since our relationship W/ the US is that we come & go as we want bands were going back & forth from NYC to PR.

Salsa is my music there is nothing you or anyone can do about it. We call it "salsa" & that's what it is. You can"t change our way. This "salsa" thing is deep rooted you can't take it away from me!!! Admit it something happen here w/ this sound, & it did not happen by accident.

The Fania Allstars went to Cuba cause they respect Cubans they admired there culture como hermanos, and thats how you show your gratitude. By making stupid remarks about la Fania Allstars. That is not only wrong It's disrespectful and that says a lot.

PS I am not a musician, nor a dancer, nor a musicologist pero soy "Salsero de Verdad"!!!! -- El Lapiz.

October 27, 2002

Why fight about the salsa?, whichever way if it makes people happy, don't argue.

Certain music is enjoyed by some and maybe not by others, but does it make us happy? That is the important thing not if is from north america or Cuba -- Alberto

October 28, 2002

Shut up and DANCE!!!! If you guys would do more dancing and less talking this world would be a better place. Who freaking cares who is dancing differently. Do what you feel. There is no wrong way to dance Salsa unless you are not following the beat. Quit making it so complicated! What does the different styles of Salsa have anything to do with the way it makes you feel? -- Anonymous

November 4, 2002

Wow!!...Vladimir and Andrew... you guys kill me.... two idiots who think they know so much... how a discussion on dancing went to Fidel Castro and "american wannabes" is beyond me.... Andrew is one of those sterotypical closed minded brainwashed Puerto Ricans... and Vladimir is exactly like the Cubans in the U.S. with their holier than thou attitude.... Some things never change.... You both need to go back to your respective Islands... and get an attitude readjustment.... because back there where everyone is so friendly, loving and humble... no one cares what you guys are arguing about!...they just dance.... Thank Cuba for inventing such a beautiful music... Thank Puerto Rico for making it what it is today!....( dummies!!) -- Alfie - a Rican in TO!

November 4, 2002 -- respond to Alfie

Mr Alfie i don't think you should call people idiots with out really knowing what the disscussion is all about, read what your paisano wrote and then read very carefully what i wrote, i do thank cuba for inventing the music at least you have your head clear about that but i don't really have to thank you or Puerto Rico for nothing only for making the music very comercial, don't think i don't like puerto rican music or musicians because i do, but some of your paisanos really haved no respect for music. -- Vladimir

November 28, 2002

Hey Vladi, you are a funny guy. Do you not see how your arrogance comes across in your writing? It makes me laugh how you prove my point on the Cuban holier-than-thou attitude. So don't thank the Puerto Ricans for their music, just be hypocritical and keep dancing to it. And I heard you can dance, but I bet you are one of those who have 9 million moves yet have no feeling in your steps. Oh I am sorry, Cubans probably
invented the feeling in music too, so you must have it. ( I doubt it!). You are typical! -- Alfie

December 5, 2002 -- Can we all just get along!

J.T to Vladimir,

What about if you get your ass out of your house and get a life, your expending to much time at home, I don't understand how a guy from BOLIVIA get some defensive about a country he doesn't belong to, my friend why don't you talk about your own culture feel proud of it. May be we can learn more about it.

Just dance and enjoy your life, there is enough problems and issues in this world to create more, instead, why don't you go out make some friends, maybe that way you will become less anger about the all salsa issue, THE REAL SALSERO IS THE ONE WHO ENJOY LIFE AND LET OTHERS ENJOY IT AND KEEP HIS MOUTH SHUT!

With stupid discussions like this what you and the rest of the close minded individuals are doing is scaring people away to get involved in the beautiful world of salsa...

I'M SERIOUS GET A LIFE, IT’S BEAUTIFUL OUT THERE! Peace! J.T.

December 6, 2002 -- Nothamerican vs Cuban -Latin style

I am not an expert on music. But I know I love salsa. LA style looked nice when it was first introduced to Toronto. It was different. However, since everybody had to take lessons to learn LA style, everybody ended up learning the same patterns, spins, even the same shines (If you don't beleive me check out Courthouse on Fridays). it looks like robots dancing all to the same predictable routine. Even while dancing on the spot by themsleves, pretending they've got a lot of rithm, it looks faked, trained,and deliberately thrown out to show off. Anyway that is just my opinion. On the other hand, Cuban style
may not be as flashy as LA but it looks richer in body movement and better ajusted to the various accents of a song. -- Miguel

December 6, 2002 -- respond to J.t

J.T i don't really think you know me or where i'm from or where my mother or sister or father are from because i don't really know who you are, why don't you come up to me at a club next time and talk to me bacuse i put my name nice and clear and you go by J.T, you are a salsero good for you!! because i'm not one, if you ever go to Cuba go to a little town by the name Guira de Melena in Habana campo and ask about me and see what happens, I love music from what you call salsa to Iron Maiden(metal) and i respect music and culture, i know enough about latin culture and it's music, that is what i studied for in Habana, for dancing escuela de arte and centro cultural and music in Amadeo Rholdan, for someone that really does't know me and i don't know where you are form but it doesn't sound like you are latin, don't come and tell me how to feel about latin music because it is my culture and culture and music is something i have dedicated my life to, you make people that are not latin that are traying to really understand the music and learn about the culture look bad, Alot of you think that because you go to a salsa congres or you dance salsa and know a few latinos that you really understand latin culture and music, now if i sound erregant i'm sorry but if i ever wanted to learn philipino culture and music i will make sure that i really know what i'm talking about before i start to tell them on how to dance their own music, and like i said I'm not a salsero (tomato sause maker) no J.T i'm a SONERO. Vladimir

P.S show your face next time you see me.

December 10, 2002 -- Different styles : North American salsa and Cuban one.....

Hi guys, (and Hi Rose...! we met in Orville's from Salsation house this summer.. do you remember?) my name is Andy...I write from Italy...I must confess that debating this subject is quiet stimulating..i'ts good the fact that there are different styles of salsa, this is the proof that different cultures are free to enjoy music in different ways, and the result can just be good...I personally prefer U.S. salsa..N.Y.style for example, which is full of footwork and complicated coreographies but very funny, ( I love dancing on two..) and L.A. style is not so bad either...Colombian is quiet simple and romantic at the same time , Puertorican is usually elegant, Cuban is fantasious and fun...so every country and culture have got their qualities , and maybe defaults if compared to other places..it's just a matter of personal tastes. I personally like North American salsa 'cause it's more complete and fun..I've been to Cuba several times..and cubans nowadays are not so great..unless you don't go to the best teachers in Habana or Santiago ( Narciso Medina ,Tony Menendez,Reynold Medina, Luis Morales),otherwise they generally do the usual two or three turns and that's all, they remained to the old cuban casino , which could be considered one of the beginning ( with the cuban "Son") of the actual salsa...you won't easily see the great dancer in the Discotecas habaneras(if you don't find the real talent, which is quiet hard ..!!! ) The Island hasn't been allowed to get the cultural,dance-styles and musical phenomenons coming from other countries, so it is normal that they keep dancing the same way they used to do thirty or twenty years ago..that's why Cubans in the States , and in Italy too, usually dance differently , better (and richer under the coreographies point of view) than Cubans living in Cuba...anyway it is still basicly a matter of taste..Bye to everyone..and reply whenever you want...I'll be glad to answer , hope my english is understandable.. ciaoooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!! Andy -- Italy

December 10, 2002 -- Response to Vladimir

Vladimir, I did not know you were a singer that can improvise (sonero). Maybe one day I will be able to hear you sing like a true sonero. Or did you mistakenly mean to say that you were a dancer of Son music?

BTW, the greatest sonero ever was ISMAEL RIVERA, as Beny More aptly titled him, "El Sonero Mayor".

Cuban music did not spontaneously emerge one day without any roots or influences to other countries. In fact, most if not ALL of Cuban music comes from the music of AFRICA, SPAIN, and FRANCE.

As well-known Cuban musicologist, Alego Carpentier, has established, the SON was brought to Cuba from a DOMINICAN WOMAN, a freed slave. The clave was brought over from HAITI.

Interestingly, if you listen to Southern Spain flamenco music you will hear behind that flamenco a clave. Check it out.

Cuban Casino-Style Salsa is influenced from American Country Square Dancing.

Vladimir, Cuban music does not operates out of a vacuum like you somehow claim it does. Cuban music is filled with foreign musical influences. Timba music incoporates American HIP-HOP, R&B, ROCK and RAP. And yet somehow it is still called Cuban music despite the foreign influences.

The statement that Salsa is Cuban music is a ridiculous statement.

The EVIDENCE my friend is in the music. 1950s Cuban music is not the same music that came out of New York in the 1960s/1970s.

A good modern example of 1950s Cuban music is the Buena Vista Social Club album, the Afro-Cuban All-Stars album, the Cubanismo albums. These albums produced nothing new. You will find that these recordings sound VERY constrained and restricted by New York standards. It does not even come close to the likes Colon, Richie Ray/Bobby Cruz, Palmieri, Barretto, Blades, etc.

Compare Colon's "Timbalero" to any song by the Buena Vista Social Club and you will see what I mean. Willie Colon's song "Timbalero" is the exemplary Salsa song, it is the personification of what Salsa is all about. You can search all the Cuban records of decades ago and you will never come across anything that even remotely resembles Colon's song.

This is just one example, there are hundreds more. Do you have time?

BTW, Juan Formell is grateful to and thanks Willie Colon for his influence on the sound of Los Van Van. At least one Cubano gives credit where credit is due.

Vladimir, Venom is seen by every metal band as the founders of Black, Death, Thrash, Speed Metal. All these genres of music are rooted in Venom's music of the early 1980s. Yet you would not say that all Thrash, Death and Black metal bands are playing the same music that Venom was playing. Is Morbid Angel's "Altars of Madness" just a recycled version of "Welcome to Hell"? Is Slayer's "Reign in Blood" the same as Venom's "Black Metal"? Is Dark Throne's "A Blaze in the Northern Sky" simply a rehashed version of "At War with Satan"?

I think you get my point "sonero". Francisco

December 10, 2002 -- Everyone Dances the Same? Miguel?

Miguel, please do not generalize that everyone dances the same way. While I do agree with you that robotic dancers exist in the Salsa scene, it is not limited to a particular style of dancing. If everyone taught Cuban style or Puerto Rican style in Toronto, you will see both the diversity and the "clone" type of dancers that exist everywhere. Sometimes there is way too much emphasis in trying to create my so called "own" style that attention to detail such as good leading, following - arts forms in their own is ignored. Yes, Cuban movements are good, but it does not end there. Just because someone is Cuban does not necessarily mean that they are good dancers. I've danced with many awesome Cuban men that are honeys to dance with, but I've also danced with someone who literally ripped my arms apart. -- Angelita

December 13, 2002 -- "Salsero De Verdad"!!!

I'm a "Salsero"(tomato sauce maker). Yeah that's right
I got the GOOD sauce from NYC (el Barrio/Spanish Harlem). My music is "Salsa". I don't care what you was taught @ a university, It's still someones opinion. Here in NEW YORK/NUEVA YORK no salsero has to go to a university to have some kind of knowledge about the music. In fact our university is the streets. We learn all of that in the streets & @ home. And Vladimir pls don't say you are a "sonero", cause you & me know that you are not a "sonero". Don't ever tell a "salsero" that you are a "sonero" if you are not one..If you go to Puerto Rico and say you are a "sonero", they'll laugh @ you(that is la tierra de los soneros/the land of soneros).

Hey come down to el Barrio/Spanish Harlem & demonstrate that you are one, yo soneo un poco , me & you soneando. Heck I'll even go to Cuba a sonearrrr just so that you don't say that I have the home field advantage. Believe me I'll feel right @ home in Cuba.

And more importanly this is a "Salsa" website, if you don't want to acknowledge my music as what it is "Salsa" than why are you on this salsa website? The name of this site is called "ToSalsa".com.
SALSA, SALSA, SALSA,,,,,,,,,,
canta/sing......
LLEGO LA BANDA, TOCANDO "SALSA",PARA QUE ENTRE EN LA BACHATA-BY WILLIECOLON/HECTOR
LAVOE &, recently The Spanish Harlem Orquestra.

canta/sing .....
CON WILLIE COLON SE FORMO EL RUMBON, CON WILLIE COLON SE FORMO EL RUMBON-
BY WILLIE COLON/CELIA CRUZ

SALSERO DALE PA' BAJO!!!
suave mi gente, El Lapiz SALSERO DE VERDAD!!!

December 13, 2002 -- respond to Francisco

Mr: Francisco, Yes to sing and to improvise is something i love to do, if i do it well who knows? he he, but a sonero dancer is someone that dances to son, hears the clave and dances to son rythmically with the music(contra tiempo), just like a timbero or a rumbero that dances or sings guaguanco, you are a salsero? good, Tito Puente always said salsa is something you eat so you must be a good cook.

Ismael sonero mayor?
You have to understand that the kind of people Ismael and Beny More were they would never go around saying that they were number 1,they would compliment one another, Beny to Ismael and Ismael to Beny, but now if you think Ismael was better good for you, it is all up to your taste that is way we have colours so we can pick the ones that we like better, there might be somebody else that likes Oscar de Leon better but it is their choice but i must remind you that most of the profesional soneros like Oscar, Celia,Cheo Tito and all of Cuba always have said that el Beny was number one.

Cuban roots Africa,Spain and France.
Yes you are very correct about this, cuba's culture is a mix of Spanish and Africa and of course French Haiti, but now show me when and where did i say that this wasn't true, Africa and Spain are the roots of all Latin America (thank god).

They call timba cuban music?
Of course it is cuban music ,the percussion is cuban, jazz and rap have influenced timba artist no one is saying that is not true but the major influence in timba are still songo and son(cuban music),unlike salsa where the major influence is cuban music.

Now about the dominican lady,i can give you three names of musicologists that have wrote the opposite, now why didn't el son flurish or become popular in Dominican like it did in Cuba, the son you speak of had nothing to do with Cuba even Jamaica at the time had music that was very similar to dominican music, Cuba's son and danzon were extremly different, the purist form of son is el CHANGUI which has tres,clave 3x2, bongos,laud e.t.c, that is the music that guajiros played at that time and still play today in Guantanamo Santiago de Cuba.

La clave came in the boats from Spain with the slaves, LAS CLAVIJAS were use to hold the ropes of the boats where the slaves would grab them and make noise with them to distract them selves by making percussion rhythms, all of this information is very well documented in Cuba.

About the Flamenco music, sounds very interesting i have to check it out but the same thing can happen with samba or candombe but it just the sound of the percussion, there is not actually someone there holding two claves and playing them.

Cuban casino style influenced by American country square dancing?
My friend just like the music has it's roots so does the dancing (Africa and Spain), do you know the difference between casino rueda and casino? what about the casino of the 90's 80's 70's and 60's do you know the difference between all of them? what about casino dancing and son, and son to danzon? do you know the difference?, Even though el son is from the 18th century in the 1920's for example the traditional son played by septets it was dance with a quick quick slow step with both partners holding on to each other (a contra tiempo), at that time no other country was dancing to clave doin a quick quick slow step not Puerto Rico or N.Y.

The statement that salsa is cuban music is ridicolous?
Tito Puente a Puerto Rican the king of N.Y's Latin music thought that it was redicolous to call his music salsa.

About your Buena Vista comments, Buena Vista wanted to make sure that people would not call this music salsa, Buena Vista helped to open the eyes to the world and to salseros that thought that cuban music was Celia Cruz, Willie Chirino and Gloria Estefan and that salsa was a Puerto Rican creation which by the way, some Puerto Ricans say that salsa is from Puerto Rico and others that it is from N.Y make up your minds.
Now Buena Vista plays TRADITIONAL CUBAN MUSIC, what you are saying it is like if i were to compare Isaak Delgado's last cd to Buena Vista, Isaak's music is pure cuban so how do you explain the difference?
The Traditional son changed every decade 20,30,40 and 50's they all sounded different because they were not septets anymore, some bands had up to 15 musicians, the son that cuba left in N.Y before the revolution was the MODERN SON not the traditional, if you compare Son de la loma to any other salsa song of course it sounds different, but compare Vamonos pal monte to any of Palmieris music and you can hear that it is the same thing.

Remember that at that time, Fania time Ruben Hector and Willie they were basically using cuban music to sing about how bad latinos had it in N.Y and how bad the gettos were exp: the songs Pedro Navaja,Juanito Alimana(one of my favorites)and Calle luna calle sol, and every now and then they would throw 8 to 21 bars of plena or bomba in some of their songs to give it a salsa sound(Puerto Rican)It was basically cuban music with social and political issues of Latinos in the USA for lyrics.
I grabed three cd's of the artists you have mention:

1st cd-Siembra by Willie Colon and Ruben Blades, out of 7 songs 5 were basic cuban rhytms.

2nd cd-Caminando by Ruben Blades out of 10 songs 8 were basic cuban rhythms.

3rd-Tras la tormenta by Willie and Ruben out of 10 songs 6 were basic cuban rhythms the other 4 you could not do your commercial salsa steps to them.

Do you think it is fair that in a cd of 7 songs because of the other two songs we should rename the other 5 songs salsa, if it was 5 plenas and two sons people would not call it a salsa cd they would call it a plena cd.
Now let me ask you something are you a musician? if you played the congas and i ask you to play salsa what would you play bomba?plena? no you would play the percussion of son with la clave and it would be up to you if you wanted to have a tres and just a singer for traditional sound or a bass,piano,horns,timbales to give it a modern sound to son.

Why didn't you compare this artists you mention to La Reve,Sonora Matancera,Original de Manzanillo,Maravilla de Florida,Conjunto Casino e.t.c.
90% of Sonora poncena's music is pure cuban music, now lets look at dancing, do you dance to bomba,plena or traditional cumbia the way traditional or modern son is dance to? NO and do they use la clave in their music? NO again, do you use clave in son? YES.

Take away the cuban music influence from salsa and what do you have left?.

Now are you saying that palmieri,Barreto,Willie and Ruben's music are so different that they should be the only ones that fall under the names salsa or real salsa? what about the rest like Sonora Ponena, Cheo Feliciano, Oscar de Leaon, Tito puente Grupo Niche and El Gran Combo?

Formel Gratefull to Willie?
Maybe after all musicians do influence one another, Los van van music is very different from Willie and from what i know the influence that Formel got was from La Reve, trombone,flute and violins, but if you are right about this that doesn't change the history of the music, you say this as if all the cuban musicians all got up at the same time and they all gave Willie a thank you and you know that never happen.
Now look at cuban music from traditional son to modern son from danzon to guagaunco to son to songo and to timba, today's salseros have to look back at the 70's to fania because today you have your Victor Manuels and your George Lamonds , there are no more songs that talk about the gettos any more it is all commercial now(don't forget to get you Tshirt or hat of the salsa congres in Puerto Rico).
Now all of those musicians you speak of they are all very well respected in Cuba, Puerto Rican musicians are great and the Cheos,gran Combo and Sonora are amzing groups, Puerto Rico has produced amazing musicians and Cuba respects that but where is the respect from the salsa world especially the new salsa stars and dancers of today to Beny More,Los van van,Charanga Habanera,Bamboleo,Felix Baloy and Sierra Maestra? just a few names to start.

It is very easy to examine salsa but cuban music is not, so if you are going to debate cuban music and culture make sure you really know what you are talking about because you would have to examine over 100 years of cuban culture.

Do me a favour got to www.timba.com and go to La ultima on the small window and read the article of CALIXTO OVIEDO monday december 9, now that is writen by a very well respected musician in Cuba and the world.

P.S People can create,listen or dance to salsa which ever way they want I'm not saying that you have to like cuban music or dancing but just respect the music and where it is from just like people respect the Puerto Rican plena, the Dominican merengue, the Colombian cumbia, the Brazilian samba and the Argentinian Tango.

December 18, 2002 -- About El Sonero Mayor.

People here are saying Benny called Maelo El Sonero Mayor, and that Maelo is better because of this. Do you guys even know the context of how this happen? Maelo (a youngster at the time, while benny was a veteran) was suppose to follow Benny, but was afraid (intimidated)to sing after the man who was consider (and still is today) the best sonero of all times. Maelo was reluctant to go on stage and Benny, to inspire him confidence, announced him as El Sonero Mayor. That is how things happened, and now people want to picture it as if he received some kind of crown from Benny as the "heir apparent". Orisha

December 19, 2002 -- Salsa is NOT recycled Cuban Music....

<< Yes to sing and to improvise is something i love to do, if i do it well who knows? he he, >>

Why nto go out and find out if you can "hang?" Hook up with a band. Everyone is looking for a well-seasoned "Sonero" that knows how to "spit" some great soneos....

<< but a sonero dancer is someone that dances to son, hears the clave and dances to son rythmically with the music(contra tiempo), just like a timbero or a rumbero that dances or sings guaguanco, you are a salsero? good, Tito Puente always said salsa is something you eat so you must be a good cook. >>

You first sentence makes no sense. If you're supposedly an instructor of some kind I suggest you learn to collect your thoughts and organize them before you type out a statement. You hear the clave and dance to Son rhytnmically with teh music and then add (Contra tiempo). If you're dancing rhythmically to the music then you can't be dancing contra tiempo. Ta' fuera de clave mi socio.

Like the rest of the world, Tito Puente was certainly entitled to his opinion and just because The King wasn't crazy about HIS music being referred to as SALSA, it doesn't apply to the musical styles that other artists were playing....

<< Ismael sonero mayor? You have to understand that the kind of people Ismael and Beny More were they would never go around saying that they were number 1, they would compliment one another, Beny to Ismael and Ismael to Beny, but now if you think Ismael was better good for you, it is all up to your taste that is way we have colours so we can pick the ones that we like better, there might be somebody else that likes Oscar de Leon better but it is their choice but i must remind you that most of the profesional soneros like Oscar, Celia,Cheo Tito and all of Cuba always have said that el Beny was number one. >>

I beg to differ. While they all may have stated that El Beny was a great singer, every single one of those artists you mention have all bestowed Maelo as the Greatest of all time. This isn't about flag waving or nationalism but about the gosh honest truth. All you gotta do is listen to the recordings. Compliments is one thing. Beny not only said himself that Maelo was a good sonero, he called him EL SONERO MAYOR. For the Cuba's greatest Sonero to refer to Maelo as the Baddest Sonero alive is high priase indeed. Especially since Maelo was not born or raised around the Afro-Cuban Son tradition. Puente never called Tito Rodriguez the King. Barreto never called Mongo the King. La Lupe never called Celia the Queen. They all complimented one another when their names came up in public. But to bow down to anyone was unheard of. Especialyl with their giant sized ego's. But Beny saw that there was no way he couldn't give Maelo his props.

Sure, you and I can have our own personal preferences. I'd rather have Ruben Blades in a band that an Oscar D'Leon. Oscar is the better improvisor. But then again, that's just my own personal taste. But I still have to give Oscar the nod over Ruben as the better sonero and Ruben would agree. Same goes for Maleo and Beny More. If you prefer one over the other thats'fine. But there is a measuring stick for Soneros to go by and that's Ismael Rivera, EL SONERO MAYOR. No one could touch him. Not Hector Lavoe, Pete El Conde, Beny More, Roberto Faz, Cheo Feliciano, Miguelito Cuni, Tito Rodriguez, Oscar D'Leon. NOBODY. If tyou took the time to really LISTEN to the recotrdings and not just drop names for the sake of it, you'd know that Maelo was light years away from Beny More. El Beny had sentimiento and a guajiro sabor and charisma to his singing style. Much like Lavoe had charisma and sentimiento as a singer. But MAELO was puro "Malicia." The dude was nasty. His Improvisations were lightning quick and made sense and were complicated. It's easy to sing abiout how much "fulana con la falda lo mena con mucho sabor" or "Voy a seguir cantando esta Rumba de Playa por tres dias mas sin parar..." or some simple jive verse like that. But listen to Ismael Rivera, especially on the early recordings with Cortijo, who was not just a Bombay Plena band, but played Gaurachas, Guaguanco's, Mambo's, Bolero's, Cha-Cha-Cha's, Guajira's. All of these are AFRO-CUBAN Rhytghms and Musical forms/styles. Yet Cortijo y su Combo with Ismael Rivera managed to interpret these Cuban elements and place a Puertorican identity on them. A SON BORICUA if you will. Listen to Beny More's Castellanos "Que Bueno Baila Usted" and listen to Cortijo's "SEVERA", bot Son Montuno's, yet both have their own distinct sound. Like him or not, MAELO is the King of them all...

<< They call timba cuban music?
Of course it is cuban music ,the percussion is cuban, jazz and rap have influenced timba artist no one is saying that is not true but the major influence in timba are still songo and son(cuban music),unlike salsa where the major influence is cuban music. >>

The percussion is NOT Cuban my friend. In Both Timba & Songo, you have trap drums. Trap Drums are a NORTH AMERICAN
musical instrument. Changuito, Juan Formell and others in LOS VAN VAN have stated publicly how North American musical styles such as Rock, R&B and POP influenced their musical vision. And Trap Drums in Cuban Music is nothing new anyway since bands like Machito, Noro Morales and LOS HAPPY BOYS in the 1930s had a drum kit in the band as opposed to the Timbales which is now standard in your average "Salsa" band. While Los Van Van & Irakere were changing the way Cuban Music was being played in Cuba, several prominent members of both groups have pointed to a North American Rock legend as providing the inspiration for combining Rock elements like electric guitars, synthesizers/keyboards and Trap Drums with Afro-Cuban Music. His name is Carlos Santana. Chucho himself has stated this. But dont'take my word for it. You can listen to the similiarity for yourself by listening to early SANTANA Records and listening to IRAKERE'S recordings. Each have the same format. Electric Guitar, Drums, Synths/Keyboards, etc. Is Carlos Santana playing Cuban Music? Or is it Rock? Do you know what SONGO is? The influence in TIMBA is not SONGO, but rather the varying influences that make up fusion music like SONGO and music like BOOGALOO before that. Afro-Cuban rhythms, R&B, Pop, Rock and Funk. Irakere's MR. BRUCE ain't far from
Santana's BLACK MAGIC WOMAN....

<< Now about the dominican lady,i can give you three names of musicologists that have wrote the opposite >>

Then please post them if you can. As well as the evidence they supoosedly provided hat support their claim.

I take it you're referring to the Teodora Ginez theory. Although there's no 100% concrete proof that this woman existed, there's more evidence demonstrating that the Son came by way of "Hispaniola" (Republica Dominicana/Haiti) to Cuba, thereby giving the Son comes fro the Dominican Republic more vailidity than the naysayers who's only argument is "There's no proof" and that's it....

<< Now why didn't el son flurish or become popular in Dominican like it did in Cuba >>

Who says that it didn't? You probably were not aware of this fact due to the controlled media that paints Cuban Music as being only popular or interpreted in Cuba. Or the automatic assumption made by most people. The proof is in the amount of individuals, bands, composers and the musical commonalities between the islands in the Antilles (Cuba, Republica Dominicana & Puerto Rico)....

<< the son you speak of had nothing to do with Cuba >>

And how do you come to this conclusion professor? Have you heard any Dominican SON Bands?....

<< even Jamaica at the time had music that was very similar to dominican music >>

Like what?...

<< Cuba's son and danzon were extremly different, the purist form of son is el CHANGUI which has tres,clave 3x2, bongos,laud e.t.c, >>

So does SON. How does these instruments make it different from Changui? Is it the rhythm perhaps?....

<< that is the music that guajiros played at that time and still play today in Guantanamo Santiago de Cuba. >>

These same guajiros play Son as well. You still haven't described the difference between Son and Changui....

<< La clave came in the boats from Spain with the slaves, LAS CLAVIJAS were use to hold the ropes of the boats where the slaves would grab them and make noise with them to distract them selves by making percussion rhythms, all of this information is very well documented in Cuba. >>

Could you tell us where or who in Cuba can direct us to this information and where it can be found.

If you dont'know the anser, stop trying to come across as the Einstein of Cuban Music. That CLAVIJAS story is so far removed from what every researched paper, historians and even songs that refer to how Claves come from. You're doing Cuban Music a disservice by posting this bullshit. Stick to the facts and not the fairy tales for the sake of replying to someone....

<< About the Flamenco music, sounds very interesting i have to check it out but the same thing can happen with samba or candombe but it just the sound of the percussion, there is not actually someone there holding two claves and playing them. >>

You just don't get it. I didn't read the previous post mentioned but by mentioning Flamenco, I can see where whoever wrote the post was getting at. You say that Latin America's roots are of both Spanish and African roots. But the musical aspect of Latin America can be attributed MOSTLY to Africa. At least from a rhythmical aspect. Music such as FLAMENCO has its roots in Africa. Look it up...

<< do you know the difference between casino rueda and casino? what about the casino of the 90's 80's 70's and 60's do you know the difference between all of them? what about casino dancing and son, and son to danzon? do you know the difference? >>

My question is...do you? It's nice to know all the names and categorizations, but it's something else to be able to explain what they are and what makes them unique. That means you've done your homework....

<< Even though el son is from the 18th century in the 1920's for example the traditional son played by septets it was dance with a quick quick slow step with both partners holding on to each other (a contra tiempo) >>

People were still holding on to each other while they danced before the 1920's. The SON is NOT from the 18th Century. Re-check your facts....

<< at that time no other country was dancing to clave doin a quick quick slow step not Puerto Rico or N.Y. >>

Oh really? There are FILMS that prove otherwise. Including in Mexico....

<< The statement that salsa is cuban music is ridicolous?
Tito Puente a Puerto Rican the king of N.Y's Latin music thought that it was redicolous to call his music salsa. >>

Because what he played was Traditional Big Band Mambo. And in case you didn't know, not only was TP the King of NY's Latin Music scene but he was the undisputed King of the World Latin Music scene. TP was right. You dont'call music that he was playing the same way he was playing it in the 50s and 60s "Salsa". But his situation does not apply to every other band that was out there. Is TP the only example you can think of? And what does his being of Puertorican-background have to do with anything? TITO PUENTE's music is not the music of IRAKERE or ISAAC DELGADO or LOS VAN VAN. All of them played Cuban Music. Was TP playing TIMBA & SONGO? Was ISAAC playing Big Band Mambo or Guaracha? Not all Cuban music is the same. And just because a bunch of Cubans are in the band doesn't mean they're playing uban Music. Chucho Valdes owes his Piano artistry to JAZZ and CLASSICAL music moreso than to Montuno/Guajeo riffs. MUSIC IS MUSIC. As much as you'd like to think so, Cubans don't own or even are the greatest exponents of Afro-Cuban Music. Tito Puente is one shining example as you know him so well....

<< About your Buena Vista comments, Buena Vista wanted to make sure that people would not call this music salsa >>

Buena Vista has nothing to do with Salsa period. Ry Cooder an "Americano", organized this venture along with producer Nick Gold. It was intended to be a recording between Cooder, some local cuban percussionists and some West African Musicians. When the West Africans didn't show, they focused solely on the Cuban musical side. They met Juan De Marcos Gonzalez who helped them get around the island and introduced them to EGREM Studios and then gathered up the members that made up the Buena Vista Social Club for Ry to record with. Nowhere did SALSA come into the equation. They'r enot even playing Mambo or Rumba in the CD. It's all Pure traditional Sones, Boleros and a Danzon. There's even an American Folk tune in there. Were they also trying to prove that Folk music was also NOT Salsa?....

<< Buena Vista helped to open the eyes to the world and to salseros that thought that cuban music was Celia Cruz, Willie Chirino and Gloria Estefan and that salsa was a Puerto Rican creation which by the way, some Puerto Ricans say that salsa is from Puerto Rico and others that it is from N.Y make up your minds >>

Salsa IS a music spearheaded originally and mostly by Puertorican Americans residing in New York City. Buena Vista opened the eyes of the ignorant who thought Son had dissapered of the face of the earth or that this was a new thing. But thsoe of us who were already hip to what they were playing were not impressed. All of the songs are not original and were written by other Composers who have passed away and gone for years, save for those written by Compay Segundo and Cachao. SALSA is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Buena Vista Social Club. If tyou think this is the same thing I'd liek to see you put on a BVSC record in a club and see how many people get on the dancefloor....

<< The Traditional son changed every decade 20,30,40 and 50's they all sounded different because they were not septets anymore, some bands had up to 15 musicians, the son that cuba left in N.Y before the revolution was the MODERN SON not the traditional >>

Sorry kiddo, but Cuba did not leave any traditional Son sound in NYC. Why else would Mario Bauza, Miguelito Valdez, Machito, Chico O'Farrill, Chocolate, Patato, Candido, Mongo Santamaria, Armando Peraza, Franisco Aguabella and a whole slew of others head to NYC from Cuba. They got sick of the Compay Segundo twangy music and opted for the musical style that NYC had to offer. Afro-Cuban Music fused with Jazz. In fact, In the 1920, Cubans bean forming Jazz bands in Cuba after some visits to NYC and returning with Jazz recordings by Count Basie, Duke Ellintgton and the king of swing Benny Goodman. In case you dind't know, JAZZ was born in the USA and not Cuba...

<< if you compare Son de la loma to any other salsa song of course it sounds different, but compare Vamonos pal monte to any of Palmieris music and you can hear that it is the same thing. >>

So then how did Cuba leave it's mark on NYC? You just contradicted your previous statement....

<< Remember that at that time, Fania time Ruben Hector and Willie they were basically using cuban music to sing about how bad latinos had it in N.Y and how bad the gettos were exp: the songs Pedro Navaja, Juanito Alimana(one of my favorites)and Calle luna calle sol, and every now and then they would throw 8 to 21 bars of plena or bomba in some of their songs to give it a salsa sound(Puerto Rican) >>

You conveniently fail to mention the many songs they recorded that had NO Afro-Cuban rhythms at all. And by the way, they were not basically using CUBAN MUSIC. Cuban MUSIC and Cuban RHYTHMS are two different things. They utilized Cuban Rhtyhms in their songs but their approach was a completely an Urban Nuyorican-Pan-Latino approach and had nothing to do with "El Son De Oriente" or "El Carnaval En Camaguey."

Even if I were to go with your little explanation, the fact remains that it was NON-CUBANS who were taking Afro-Cuban Music to another level. So therefore, instead of pointing your finger and putting Boricuas down, you need to be kissing OUR ass for maintaining your traditions outside of Cuba and developing it in a fashion that could only be developed in one place. The multi-cultural melting pot known as NYC. SALSA music as we all know it couldn't have evolved without the contribution of Urban Jibaros, Hip NYC Cubiches, Jewish Trombonists/Musicians, African American Jazzers, and an itlaian American Lawyer named Jerry....

<< It was basically cuban music with social and political issues of Latinos in the USA for lyrics. >>

What was so basically Cuban about it? It's Cuban rhythms but a shaped around a Urban New York Identity. The beginning to the intro of PEDRO NAVAJA doesn't reflect the streets or sounds of Cuba. It reflected the sights, and sounds of the times in 1970s new York City. Sirens from Fire Engines, A Cop blowing his whistle, A fire hydrant being opened, a car screeching aroudn the corner, te vocie of some youngblood whistling and calling out his homeboy's name and the sound of the drums. The Congas that could be heard on almost every corner of any Barrio in any part of New York where Latinos resided. This was the Latin NEW YORK Experience of the 1970s and it is reflected thru the music as such. What does a musician from NYC know about life in Cuba if he's never been there? He is applying his own "experience" to the Conga. It is only arrogance and egotism that would suggest that the Music of Willie Colsn and Ruben Blades is "basically Cuban Music". Tito Puente's music was basically Cuban Music as well. So why was Tito not as popular as Willie and Ruben during that same PEDRO NAVAJA Period (Late 70s)?....

I grabed three cd's of the artists you have mention:

<< 1st cd-Siembra by Willie Colon and Ruben Blades, out of 7 songs 5 were basic cuban rhytms. >>

Which ones? You need to study your rhythms my friend.

BTW-What is a Basic Cuban Rhythm?

<< 2nd cd-Caminando by Ruben Blades out of 10 songs 8 were basic cuban rhythms.

3rd-Tras la tormenta by Willie and Ruben out of 10 songs 6 were basic cuban rhythms the other 4 you could not do your commercial salsa steps to them. >>

Again, what are Basic Cuban Rhtyhms? Are there Advanced Rhythms we should know about?....

<< Do you think it is fair that in a cd of 7 songs because of the other two songs we should rename the other 5 songs salsa, if it was 5 plenas and two sons people would not call it a salsa cd they would call it a plena cd. >>

It's not a question of fair. The bottom line is that if there are 6 songs that are Cuban and 2 that are not then thsi CD is nto a Cuban Music CD. You may nto want to call it SALSA ansd that's fine. But it ain't no Cuban Music Record that's for sure if there's two tuns in there that have nothin to do with Cuban music. It is an Afro-Caribbean or Afro-Antillean or Afro-Cuban/"whatever the rhythms
are in the two songs" CD. A Marketing person would simply refer to it as a SALSA. Try selling an "AFRO-CUBAN plus two Brazilian tunes" CD to the market and see how many units you sell as opposed to selling a "SALSA" CD and tell me which way you'd go. It ain't about fair. It's about putting money into your pocket and selling a product....

<< Now let me ask you something are you a musician? if you played the congas and i ask you to play salsa what would you play bomba?plena? no you would play the percussion of son with la clave and it would be up to you if you wanted to have a tres and just a singer for traditional sound or a bass,piano,horns,timbales to give it a modern sound to son. >>

A serious musician who knows his craft wouldn't even dignify a response to that question. You want a percussionist to play something you need to state specifically what it is you want.

SALSA is not a rhythm, it is a concept....

Clave is used in Bomba FYI and elements of both Bomba and Plena as well as Cumbia is implementd into modern Salsa dancing. If you dance traditional Son then you'd have a hard time fitting in at the club...

<< Take away the cuban music influence from salsa and what do you have left? >>

What do you have? ASALTO NAVIDEQO, EL JUICIO, QUE GENTE AVERIGUA, QUIMBARA, MAESTRA VIDA, SEGUN EL COLOR, MENTIRA, MAQUINOLANDERA, and a 100 other songs that were hits and had no problem having dancers fill the dance floor when they were played and none of which are Cuban. If all you know how to dance is to Cuban Music that's your bag. But ther'ss a lt of music out theer that fall sunder the SALSA Ctegory that has done quite fine without the SON being anywhere in sight....

<< Now are you saying that palmieri,Barreto,Willie and Ruben's music are so different that they should be the only ones that fall under the names salsa or real salsa? >>

That is correct...

<< what about the rest like Sonora Ponena, Cheo Feliciano, Oscar de Leaon, Tito puente Grupo Niche and El Gran Combo? >>

They too are light years ahead of La Reve, Sonora Matancera, Original de Manzanillo,Maravilla de Florida, Conjunto Casino. C'mon man none of these floks even come close to the swing of the aforementioned bands you listed...

<< Formel Gratefull to Willie?
Maybe after all musicians do influence one another, Los van van music is very different from Willie and from what i know the influence that Formel got was from La Reve, trombone,flute and violins, but if you are right about this that doesn't change the history of the music, you say this as if all the cuban musicians all got up at the same time and they all gave Willie a thank you and you know that never happen. >>

I have Juan Formell on tape saying the early Willie Colsn band was an influence because of the phrasing style and how they utilized the Trombones in their music. You mention reve and thats'true since Formell was a member of that band. But you'd be so surprisd to know that Elio Reve was inspired to add brass to his charanga after hearing a Ray Barreto and his Charanga Moderna who were utilizing Violins, with Flute and Brass as early as 1960. The recording dates prove which came first....

<< Now look at cuban music from traditional son to modern son from danzon to guagaunco to son to songo and to timba, today's salseros have to look back at the 70's to fania because today you have your Victor Manuels and your George Lamonds, there are no more songs that talk about the gettos any more it is all commercial now (don't forget to get you Tshirt or hat of the salsa congres in Puerto Rico) >>

The same can be said of Cuban "Salseros" and their music...

<< Now all of those musicians you speak of they are all very well respected in Cuba, Puerto Rican musicians are great and the Cheos,gran Combo and Sonora are amzing groups, Puerto Rico has produced amazing musicians and Cuba respects that but where is the respect from the salsa world especially the new salsa stars and dancers of today to Beny More,Los van van,Charanga Habanera,Bamboleo,Felix Baloy and Sierra Maestra? just a few names to start. >>

Where is the respect? You obviously have not been paying attention. The fact that Arsenio Rodrigeuz, Beny More, Sonora Matancera, La Lupe, Los Van Van, Roberto Faz, Aragon, etc have all been covered by SALSA Bands and their songs been recorded by many SALSA Bands is proof of the respect and admiration by the Salsa World.

Cubans like yourself however need to check their facts and do more homework. Many of your great Cubn compositions and musical styles have been augmented, developed and CREATED by many non-Cubans. Among them Rafael Hernandez, a Boricua, who compsed CACHITA which was a huge hit for Orq. Aragon, the number one Charanga group of all time.

<< It is very easy to examine salsa but cuban music is not, so if you are going to debate cuban music and culture make sure you really know what you are talking about because you would have to examine over 100 years of cuban culture. >>

Well, you seem to not know Anythign about Salsa so it's not that easy. And Cuban Music & Culture can be understood and is accessible to all if one took the time to research it and submerge themselves in the culture and not just read names from a book and type them out on mesage baords to come acros as the great know it all. That honor is already taken....

;-)

<< Do me a favour got to www.timba.com and go to La ultima on the small window and read the article of CALIXTO OVIEDO monday december 9, now that is writen by a very well respected musician in Cuba and the world. >>

Go over to BATADRUMS and AFROCUBAWEB to find otu more about Clave and where it comes from...

<< P.S People can create,listen or dance to salsa which ever way they want I'm not saying that you have to like cuban music or dancing but just respect the music and where it is from just like people respect the Puerto Rican plena, the Dominican merengue, the Colombian cumbia, the Brazilian samba and the Argentinian Tango. >>

Sho'you right. What you fail to understand is that SALSA is a tribute to all of these music's and not just Cuba's....

Rumbero

December 19, 2002 -- Rumbero, rumbero.

Van van uses american drums in some of their tunes, but the pattern that's played in them is not american, that's the difference. About the clave i can tell you that it's origin is unknown. it is said that it was made with the wood found on the decks at havana's bay. but that wouldn't indicate the origin of it, would it? we need to find the musical origin of it. infuences are speculated to be the castaquelas used by flamenco dances, the sticks used by chinese and the african drum patterns. it's more likely to be a mixtured of it all. the truth is that clave was first heard in cuba. whoever cited alejo carpentier as a musicologist couldn't be any more wrong. ajelo carpentier is probably the greatest cuban novelist and he happened to once write a book about cuba's musical history. a book that I must add is very incomplete and exclusive (he leaves out figures like lecuona and roig). The first son ever heard wasn't found in the dominican republic, but in cuba, in santiago. it was el son de la ma' teodoroa. la ma teodora was a dominican lady that lived in cuba and was a prominent singer and song writer in her time. the song goes somethig like this:

donde esta la ma teodora?
rajando la leqa esta.
donde esta que no la veo?
rajando la leqa esta

Orisha

December 19, 2002 -- Is this a joke?

Is this a joke? Come on people. To tell you the truth I think most LA dancers can't really dance, but that's my own opinion. First, Salsa is not ballroom music and it's not L.A. music. It is musica de la calle and should dance it with freedom. About square dancing influencing casino? please, we've been doing this for ages. I've seen videos from the 1930's of people dancing rueda. There's a similarity, I know, i've seen it. But there are also similarities in a lot of other things. Absurd theater was being created in Europe and Latin America at the same time and the creator didn't know each other, they didn't know of each other's work. When you dance, you enjoy the music, you improvise, and mainly you show up your lady. if you are spinning real fast you are not showing up your lady. dancing is an interpretation of love, of sex, of sensuality -- Orisha

December 20, 2002 --Response to Vladimir

Mr. Vladimir, Why cant you accept and recognize that Beny More admired and respected Ismael Rivera? Why cant you accept the fact that Ismael bestowed with such a complimentt? This would not be an issue if Beny More made the same compliment to a Cuban sonero. You would not be saying...You have to understand that the kind of people..., in fact, you would be saying the exact opposite of how Beny Mores statement is proof of this Cuban soneros talents. I think to you this matter is all about NATIONALISM than anything related to historical truths.

It is fine if Oscar, Celia, Tito, Cheo claim that Beny was the best, but what about the rest of the Soneros? These individuals dont constitute the entire sonero community. What about Frankie Vasquez, Herman Olivera, Sabater?? BTW, all four of these individuals that you mention are strongly pro-Cuba so it is no surprise who they would choose as being the best sonero. Try to be a bit more objective in your analysis.

My reason for stating that Cuban music is rooted in African, Spaniard and French music is simply show that Cubans have taken other musical influences and genres to create their music. They did not create it out of nowhere. Yet despite this fact, you never hear anyone saying Cuban music is REALLY AFRO-SPANIARD-FRENCH music. No, everyone recognizes Son as Son, Mambo as Mambo, Guaguanco as Guaguanco etc., right? Right. Yet, somehow you and many others feel this irrational, patriotic duty to discredit Salsa music and relegate to being a recycled version of an early 19th century folkoric genre in Cuba.

You obviously do not understand change and evolution in music. How can any person really believe that the music that was played in NYC by the Puertoricans is really rehashed versions of a genre of music that is coming close to being almost 100 years old??? Do you not see that music changes and develops new sounds over time??

Cubans like Juan Formell, and others like Chocolate Armenteros and Justo Betancourt, acknowledge and recognize Salsa music for what it truly is, A CONCEPT that was developed, not in Cuba, but in NY; a concept that incorporates and arranges a plethora of Latin musical genres in its sound. They dont seem to engage in this vulgar nationalism that the disciples of the Salsa is recycled Cuban music School adhere to.

Vladimir, the Clave comes from West and Central Africa, it is not a Cuban invention. In those African countries the clave was played two by two with the same rythmic function as they do in Cuba. The African influence brought the clave to Flamenco music in Spain, to music in Haiti and other countries like (surprise!!) Brazil.There was no indigenous Cuban music when the African slaves arrived to Cuba, the Spaniards wiped them all out hence the need for importing slaves from Africa.

The Buena Vista Social Club IS playing the Son of the 1950s in Cuba, sones before that sound very different. You cannot tell me that the sound of the BVSC album was the sound of early 19th century Cuban music?! You have got to be joking! The OLD sones sound very TWANGY, they sound nothing like the sones of the 1950s/60s. The same goes for the Cubanismo, Afro-Cuban All Stars albums.

In regards to Timba music, Juan Formell defines this music as being in crossroads between Son and Salsa music. You see even one of the pioneers of Timba music knows the difference between the two, why are you having such difficulty? Set your patriotism aside brother, facts are facts, stick to them.

I am not a good cook yet but maybe in a few years I will be, I am certain that my cooking skills will CHANGE and DEVELOP throughout the next decades. -- Francisco

Part 1 - January to June, 2001
Part 2 - July to December, 2001
Part 3 - January to December 2002
Part 4 - January, 2003
Part 5 - February to August, 2003
Part 6 - September, 2003 to Present

Our Readers asked...
Our Feedback...	January 8, 2002 - Barbara's response from Florida
	March 22, 2002 - John's response from Belgium
	August 4, 2002 - Mikey's response
	September 5, 2002 - Sherrie's response
	September 5, 2002 - Miriam's response
	September 9, 2002 - Alex's response
	September 11, 2002 - El Lapiz's response
	September 12, 2002 - Francisco's response
	September 18, 2002 - Vladimir's response to Francisco
	September 20, 2002 - Vladimir's response to Mikey
	September 20, 2002 - Vladimir's response to Barbara
	September 20, 2002 - Neda's response
	October 21, 2002 - Andrew's response to Papi from September 27, 2001
	October 23, 2002 - Vladimir's response to Andrew
	October 25, 2002 - El Lapiz's response to Vladimir
	October 27, 2002 - Alberto's comment
	October 29, 2002 - Anonymous Feedback
	November 4, 2002 - Alfie's response to Andrew and Vladimir
	November 18, 2002 - Vladimir's response to Alfie
	November 28, 2002 - Alfie's response to Vladimir
	December 5, 2002 - JT's response to Vladimir
	December 6, 2002 - Miguel's response
	December 6, 2002 - Vladimir's response to JT
	December 10, 2002 - Andy's Response
	December 10, 2002 - Francisco's response to Vladimir
	December 11, 2002 - Angelita's response to Miguel
	December 13, 2002 - El Lapiz's response to Vladimir
	December 13, 2002 - Vladimir's response to Francisco
	December 18, 2002 - Orisha's response
	December 19, 2002 - Richie Rumbero's response to Vladimir
	December 19, 2002 - Orisha's response to Rumbero
	December 19, 2002 - Orisha's response
	December 20, 2002 - Francisco's response to Vladimir