July
3, 2001 - Andres Rebuttal to Jo Kim from March 18th?
This whole debate about the origins of salsa will never end. It is
good in one way because it will allow for interesting discussions
among salsa lovers.
I find
it interesting that a non-latino like Jo Kim somehow is the voice
and mind of all latinos living in Canada. Somehow Jo Kim has an insider
knowledge of how latinos conceptualise their culture within the North
American context.
Latinos
are not a monolithic culture. There are vast differences amongst all
of us but at the same time there are many things that unite us. Language
is the first and foremost attribute that we share. Many of us came
to Canada to escape from U.S. supported tyrannical regimes; others
came for strictly economic reasons. A great majority of latinos were
born and raised in Canada.
Jo Kim
(assuming you are of a non-latino background)has become the official
voice of Latino-Canadian attitudes and thought.Jo Kim's interpretation
is apparently the only qualified analysis in this matter.
You may
have lots of latino friends, that is great. Don't make simplistic,
uninformed assumptions and generalisations on a culture that is as
vast and complex as any other. Don't attempt to tell and explain what
it is to be a latino in North America when you yourself are not part
of that cultural group. Each latino will have a different story to
tell. Your quasi-sociological interpretations of latino culture go
nowhere.
Reading
critical race theory books does not make you a designated expert on
lives of certain cultural groups.
I respect
your opinions but please don't try to come across as the official
spokesman of everything that is Latino.
In regards
to the origins of salsa, no one is denying that its roots are in the
Cuban son. I don't think anyone is negating this historical truth.
The music
that was created in New York was vastly different in sound than the
Cuban music of the 1950s. Listen to Perez Prado, Beny More, Sonora
Matancera...then listen to the Nuyorican artists of the 1970s and
one will immediately realise the vast distinctions in sounds.
There
was nothing in 1950s Cuba that even closely resembled the salsa sound
of 1970s New York. The overwhelming majority of the musicians that
created the salsa sound were Puerto Rican. Cubans were the least involved
group in this musical movement.
It is
of great injustice to pigeon-hole a diverse Pan-American musical movement
that was 1970s salsa as simply Cuban. The truth is that Cuba never
had anything that remotely resembled Nuyorican salsa.
Jo Kim
asks what I would call Los Van Van, Irakere. These are timba artists.
Timba took the Nuyorican salsa sound and mixed it with other rhythms
such as rap. Los Van Van gratefully acknowledge Willie Colon's music
as a primary influence on the formation of their sound. Does that
make Colon the pioneer and creator of Timba?
Salsa
is a rhythm whose musical roots are in Cuba but whose sound was transformed
and created by New York latinos. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?,
this is Salsa's history.
By the
way,according to Cuban musicologists, the son was brought to Cuba
from the Dominican Republic in the mid 15th century. Using the logic
of Jo Kim, the son would thus be Dominican.
Cheers,
Andres
July
14, 2001
Dear Rose Knows -- I first found you by chance, while browsing
the internet for Latin Music - Salsa. Much later I was prompted to
revisit after a very nice salsa dancer from NC, John 'musthavsalsa',
e-mailed and told me to read his comment on dance etiquette issues.
He and I hold ongoing very friendly and good-natured sparring sessions
about "Salsa dancing". He takes all kind of lessons from
the Cobo Bros., Jose Neglia etc. with a group of his friends who are
equally athletic and expressive. I always joke that they "perform"
to the music, and that I prefer to "feel and move" with
the music. They often look so intense and sometimes comically competitive
to me, who just dances because I am in love.
You see,
I was baptized by rhythm, in a most unusual place not known for spontaneous
expressiveness, other than maybe the old stereotypical militaristic
goose step. I was born in a small town in West-Germany, named Bramsche,
into a well-to-do business family. Boring stuff...except that my German
mother listened to Brazilian music all the time. So, my frigid Northern
German blood was warmed by sultry whispers in a language I could not
understand, just feel.
The music
stopped when my mother died the year I turned 13, but the rhythm was
infused. I grew into a rather tall teenage girl, with broad shoulders,
large bones, an athletic, sturdy built - perfect for my passion, which
was three-day-eventing, a demanding horseback riding discipline. Riding
taught me balance and how to communicate with a the horse with the
slightest movement of a hand, of a leg, to perform complicated dressage
moves or jump tall obstacles. So, what does this all have to do with
Salsa dancing?
I am
not quite sure - but this rhythm thing kept throwing me for loops.
Like when I was dancing reggae in my late teens in a German discothek,
and Jamaicans, stationed with the British army in nearby Osnabruck,
would ask me where I had learned to dance. Or when I jammed to the
soul music of the Temptations, James Brown etc. and African-Americans
would smile and ask me the same question. Why was there such an astonished
note in their inquiries, when I was only letting my body follow what
I heard and felt?
It was
not until the mid-90s, when I had lived in the USA for many years,
and a jazz songstress friend of mine invited me to a Latin night where
she performed, that I finally understood. I arrived at the club during
a break, as the Dominican DJ was spinning music - Merengue, Salsa,
Bachata, and some Cumbia. As soon as the rhythm hit me, it all came
back. I felt like it had connected to some long-lost place deep inside
of me and opened the door. I was floored and moved!
A few
months later I met my tall Dominican soulmate - and this after having
been divorced for a while, with a demanding professional career -
who only spoke Spanish, who took me home to visit his island, who
taught me to dance with feeling, without words, to know where the
next step would flow with a move of his hands or his body. Six years
later we are still dancing. I can now even understand the lyrics of
the songs because I learned the language, the words - but I really
did not need to because like in St. Exupery's Little Prince - the
essential cannot be seen with the eyes, only understood with the heart.
I think
that all the discussions between the esteemed salsa experts, of who
invented and influenced what, of who and where it all began, are interesting
and informative. However, I truly believe that they are forcing a
note of extreme right-or-wrong on a rhythm and a dance that have no
bounderies or limits. They will go where our hearts and feet carry
them. -- Ulrike
July
18, 2001
SALSA IS NOT A RHYTHM.....IT IS A CONCEPT (quote from Maestro
Willie Colón)
This
is in direct response to Jo Kim from March 1, 2001 (Jo Kim's Rebuttal
to Andres)
"When Wille Colon talks about Salsa as a Pan-Latin American
movement, he is talking about its popularity and its ability to represent
Latin culture."
Jo Kim,
unless you know Willie Colón personally, who are YOU to be
speaking FOR him? Do you know him? I do. Very well as a matter of
fact. Last week some well known club promoter in NYC decided to state
the same mis-information and revisionism that you've been doing on
this discussion board about SALSA and made the same mistake of interpreting
what Willie "meant to say". Here was Willie's response,
which would also probably apply to you had he read your statements...
Willie
Colón: "I am sooooo tired
of fighting this battle... but I have to respond to this kind of revisionism.
Cubans are pullng the rug out from under us and will eventually seep
us under it and make us totally extinct and irrelevant if we do not
fight against the lies that are being spread. There is much more than
musicological facts at stake. There is an economic and political root
to this campaign to reclaim all that is Latino and plant the Cuban
flag on it. If you look at the way Cubans dance, wiggling their asses
like a snake and bending their knees, you'll know that modern Salsa
dancers are light years away from Cuban son dancers. If you won't
acknowledge or perhaps even understand 40 years of musical evolution
then there's no hope for you. Since Disco, Rap and Hip Hop have Latin
roots I guess they are also Cuban son. To say that the work Ricardo
Ray, Ismael Rivera, Mon Rivera, Lebron Brothers, Fruko, Cesar Concepción,
Noro Morales, Cortijo, Charlie Palmieri, Kako, Barry Rogers, Hector
LaVoe, and yours truly did during the last 40 years is Cuban son is
not only naive.
It is disrespectful.
It is a disservice to me and my colleagues, many who are no longer
with us. If you ask Juan Formell he will tell you the truth. Chocolate
Armenteros will tell you the truth. Justo Betancourt will tell you.
Yes, there were many Cubans involved in the evolution of Salsa but
it was not Cuban music. First of all, this music in a US context had
a socio-political connotation that it never had in Cuba. Latin music
became for our community a form of civil disobedience at times and
for a community of mixed nationalities a unifying flag. The fact that
there are many MANY songs in Salsa that include no Cuban rythms should
be a sign to you that is it not a music solely derived
from Cuban roots.
It is very clear that Cuban soneros cannot improvise as well as Salseros,
especially back in the 50, 60, 70, 80s. Which is why Beny had to kiss
Maelo's ring. He couldn't shine Maelo's shoes when it came to improvisation.
Now Cubans are benchmarking our sacharrin "Salsa Romantica"
but next to Cheo, Hector, and the King Maelo they are weak and pale.
They don't have "malicia", sense of humor and syncopation.
If you want to perpetuate the myth and misinformation that Salsa is
Cuban son, then go right ahead. I thought you knew better." [End
Quote]
<<
What would be Mexico's and Argentina's (the largest Latin American
countries) contribution to salsa music? >>
This
is where alot of the so-called "experts" such as yourself
fail in becasue all they've ever done is study Afro-Cuban music written
by Johnyn Come Lately's. Do you know what "Jarocho" is?
How about "Son Jarocho" for that matter? This is Mexican.
Look up a guy named Perez Prado and listen to his records which has
this influence. As well as Sonora Matancera, Daniel Santos, Bienvenido
Granda, Leo Marini, etc.
Also for you information, if you're talking about the roots of SALSA,
Afro-Cuban music isn't the only one. Jazz is also a part of the musical
makeup. In the 1890's in New Orleans, A Mexican Calvary big band performed
at the New Orleans World Fair. They were such a hit that many of the
musicians/composers of the day copied down their music and arranged
it to become waltzes, Polkas, scottisches, and ventually....Ragtime.
In essence they were playing Mexican Music or were influenced heavily
by it. Rag becomes Jazz. Mario bauza comes to NYC and is exposed to
the Jazz scene in NYC and boom!....CuBop is born. Otherwise known
as Afro-Cuban Jazz. For you to say that the elimination of every other
element except Son and you would still have SALSA is completely false.
SON is SON. But SALSA is SALSA. SALSA cannot exist without elements
of Jazz, Swing, R&B, Rock, Pop, Caribbean (Not just Cuba but D.R.
and P.R. as well) and South America. If you really want to get technical,
Son is nothing without going back to Africa.
<<
New York Salsa sounded different and new from previous Latin music.
But was it a totally different type of music? NO. It is a variation
or movement under the general heading of Afro-Cuban music. Bebop revolutionized
Jazz. But Bebop is still Jazz. >>
Have
you ever studied music before? Ever taken theory or studied what Jazz
is? Because if you did I suggest you demand a refund. There's a thing
called Swing that is inflected into Be Bop. Stop reading the books
and buy yourself some records ib both Jazz and Afro-Cuban music &
Salsa judge by that. Not everything you read in a book about Salsa
is Gospel.....
<<
True, the drums in Latin Music come from Africa, but what indigenous
African music sounds like Salsa or the precursors to Salsa? >>
If you
had studied African musical culture you'd know that Clave is not of
Cuban origin. In West African drumming a type of clave is utilized
as the basis to go by, although they do not call it Clave, but rather
the bell pattern. To this day they utilize this form of Clave. Is
it any wonder why SALSA is so popular over there?
If one goes by you argument, I could make the same noption over Cuban
music. What Cuban tune sounds anything close to COCINANDO by Ray Barretto?
The rhythm on COCINANDO happens to be a Son Montuno. But there's also
jazz being played by the trumpets. The use of an Electric Piano/Organ
offer up a relation to R&B, Pop or Funk. What cuban record can
you point to that has an electric bass sounding as funky as on COCINANDO.
If you've never heard the song I suggest you go out and get it. I
defy AYNONE to say that this tune is a carbon copy of what was taking
place musically in Cuba in the 30s, 40s 50s and 60s. Not even close.
You
say that nothing ever comes from nothing. Then where does TIMBA come
from? How about Songo? Do you know what music these are?
The
precursor to New York Salsa Sound cannot be found in Cuba, but can
be traced right back to NYC during the Palladium Era. Don't believe
me? Go out and buy the records bro.
Here's a little story for you. Beny More came to the USA for the first
time with a small conjunto band he was fronting on vocals and maracas
for. During their stay, they made a pit stop to the Palladium. It
was there that he first experienced Machito and Tito Puente, Pupi
Campo, Joe Loco, Tito Rodrigeuz, etc. Beny was so excited, that upon
returning to his native Cuba he told his cousin and brother to put
together a big band similiar to that of the American Jazz bands. Which
is where Machito and the rest get their inspiration from. The orchestration
from Cuba was small conjuntos with two guitars and a bongo with vocalist
playing clave sticks or maracas. The New York bands were inspired
by the Big Band jazz orchestrations of Count Basie and Chick Webb
and Dizzy Gillespie....
<<
Salsa didn't exist in 1950's Cuba, maybe the name didn't exist, but
the music sure did exist. There existed son, cha-cha-cha and mambo.
>>
Son
, Cha-Cha-Cha and Mambo is not SALSA. Those are only three musical
forms of Afro-Cuban Music. The design in SALSA is much larger and
not solely of Afro-Cuban origin....
<<
You don't dance to the jazz harmonies introduced by New York Puerto
Ricans, you dance to the clave in a son-montuno. >>
Wrong.
Without those jazz harmonies, we'd all be wiggling our asses and bending
our knees to Son Montuno. Those Jazz harmonies provide the Swing in
Salsa. Not the clave....
<<
This type of music has had its longest history, greatest germination
and variety, newest innovations in CUBA. >>
Again
false. If this is true, would you care to bring forth evidence of
this long history of innovation in SALSA taking place in Cuba? You
said you saw the film "YO SOY EL SON DE LA SALSA". Obviously
you weren't paying attention becasue all of the Cuban musicians, including
Juan Formell, Isaac Delgado, Adalberto Alvarez and others all gave
props to NY Salsa and defined them as influences. Ruben Blades being
Isaac Delgado's biggest influence of all.....
<<
It's quite simple. I will use an example many people know: the Buena
Vista Social Club's remake of Benny More classic "Que bueno baila
Usted". This song was first recorded before the "invention"
of Salsa. But to my ears and to most people ears, the difference between
this song and New York Salsa is very marginal. >>
This
is pure idiocy. This goes beyond just stating your personal opinion
my friend. You have no ears for music if you find BVSC's version of
Beny's classic marginal to SALSA and as such you got no business making
these ludicrous statements as absolute facts. What is it that you're
listening to? Just the rhythms? Do you know what the word "progressive"
means and how it applies to SALSA musically? Never mind, you probably
don't.....
<<
A "modern Salsa" (it sounds the same to me) version of this
song plays at Babaluu's often. Sergio George, a leading producer in
New York salsa, incoporated Cuban songo and timba into hits by DLG,
Marc Anthony,etc. Juliana by DLG is actually a Cuban son>>
Who
told you this man?!? Please show me where the TIMBA and SONGO influences
are in ANY of the hits by DLG or even MARC ANTHONY for that matter.
This is completely false and if you tell this to a Cuban musician
they'll laugh at you. Juliana is Cuban Son huh? I wonder Cuco Valoy
was aware of this?....
<<
Andres seem to suggest Cubans rejected Salsa because it was considered
black music. >>
This
was in fact true. At one point the Cubans in high society denounced
the use of a Conga drum in a musical setting becasue it was deemed
as too black for their tastes. Moving ahead into the future, many
Cubans including Machito and even Nuyoricans such as Puente denounced
SALSA. It's pretty ironic as both of these giants ended up using the
term to benefit them. Machito changed his big band's name into Machito
and his SALSA BIG BAND and Puente was often referred to as the King
Of Salsa. The fact remains that when Salsa first began to emerge in
the 60s and peaked in the 70s, many Cubans denounced it and saw it
as a poor representation of Son due to the addition of other non-cuban
influences. Now thrity years later they're taking the credit and have
kids like you step up to the plate to preach this gospel that SALSA
is from Cuba and that everyone esle is merely copying what was already
taking place? Sounds downright shady to me...
<<
More blacks in Cuba make up popular Salsa groups than Puerto Rico,
being less bound to commercial tastes than New York and Puerto Rico.
>>
What
does this have to do with anything? First of all you're wrong. Have
you ever been to Cuba? You can count the number of bands local or
otherwise that have teh word Salsa in their name on your hand. They
are Charanga this. Son that. Guaracha Kings, ETC. ETC. Number two,
Cuba is less bound to commercial tastes than NYC or P.R. due to the
40 year embargo. So if Cuba is bound less by commercial tastes, where
did they get SONGO and TIMBA from? That is if you know what they are?.....
<<
Racism exists in every country. But after the Cuban Revolution, more
opportunities exist for musicians of African descent than any other
Latin country. >>
What
are you basing this on? By what proof or shred of evidence have you
come to this determination? I'm white but I have african ancestry.
One's african ancenstry has nothing can do with it. You can be a WASP
for all everyone really cares about. It'd about whether you have playing
chops or not. If Chucho Valdes sucked on the piano he would not have
any opportunity whatsoever other than shining shoes in Cuba....
<<
This answers Andres' other question about why Miami wasn't the birthplace
of Salsa. Most of the immigrants to Miami of Cuba descent were (not
now) doctors, lawyers, office workers and business managers and overwhelmingly
white. There were some Cuban musicians, but most of them went to New
York to influence and teach the New York Puerto Ricans. Many musicans
(many black) stayed in Cuba because of the low status of their profession,
they couldn't afford to leave Cuba. Why does Miami have to be a center
of Salsa, when you already have Cuba. >>
This
is the stupidest most ignorant and offensive explanation I've ever
read. And believe me I thought I read them all but you're right up
there with the best of them. Let's be honest man. Are you really NOT
a Cuban? Becasue if you're not what the hell is a non-Latino for that
matter doing telling everyone the reasons for the Cuban exodus? Were
you there? You need to do some serious re-programming and studying
on this music and history my friend. The revolution took place in
1959. Afro-Cuban music was already being played as far back as the
1920's by Puertoricans, Domincians, Jes, Mexicans, Panamanians, African
Americans, etc. Don't beleive me? Go buy a Latin Music record from
the 1930s and 40s sometime. If it has credits post them here and I'll
tell you what nationality the musicians listen on the personnel were.
The name of Machito's Orchestra was The Afro-Cubans. And the number
of Afro-Cubans in that band wre a minority. There were Puertoricans,
Italian-Americans, Jewish Americans and African Americans.
<< Fania records invented and marketed the name Salsa. >>
FANIA
did not invent the term SALSA. Your claim is false and can be proven
as such....
<<
They promoted themselves as the inventors of this kind of music. >>
No they
didn't. They promoted themselves as the most popular exponents of
the music. And the fact was that they were. No matter hwo much promotion
ther was, the FANIA ALL STARS do not tour or perform as often as they
did in the past and they continue to be a worldwide phenomenon. Or
are you not aware of that fact where you live?....
<<
Puerto Rican nationalists used salsa to create a cultural identity.
>>
I didn't
know Johnny Pacheco was a nationalist? Justo Betancourt was Cuban.
Did he have an identity crisis? Was Lary Harlow suffering from the
same delusion. Willie Colón, Eddie Palmieri, Richie Ray and
Ray Barretto were all born in New York. Do you make this stuff up
as you go along?.....
<<
Puerto Rico has always had an identity problem because the American
presence is so strong there. >>
You wouldn't know it from the Puertorican Day Parade....
<<
Fania released a movie "Our Latin Thing" (Nuestra Cosa)
which made the suggestion that Salsa came directly from Africa to
New York, skipping Cuba entirely. >>
Wrong.
Did you even see the movie? Our Latin Thing never even touched on
Africa bro. The film deals with life in the Barrios of Latin New York.
The movie you might be referring to is called SALSA, which did not
leave out Cuba altogether as you stated. There were clips showcasing
Machito, Perez Prado, Mario Bauza, and even non-AfroCuban watered
down music like Desi Arnaz, Xaveir Cugat, The Del-Rio Sisters, and
Carmen Miranda <~What she was doing there I have no idea.) Please
get your facts or your made-up stories straight before you post them....
<<
The public was not made aware that much of material used by Fania
artists were composed by Cubans. >>
Nor
is the public aware that BVSC have recorded cover songs and nothing
new as well. At the time everyone knew the songs. They knew that Pa'Huele
was Arsenio. They knew Lindo Yambu was Ignacio Piñiero. they
knew that Pintame Los Labios Maria was Roberto Faz. But let's not
be hypocritical either. Many a song by Orquesta Aragon, La Lupe and
La Sonora Matancera among others also recorded tunes written by Puertorican
composers such as Rafael Hernadnez, Pedro Flores, Bobby Capo and Tite
Curet Alonso. The D.R. applies mostly to ONE cuban named Justi Baretto
as well as a Nuyorican named Mike Amadeo who is still alvie in the
bronx and owns the record shop CASA AMADEO. If you're ver in town
ask him about this and he'll be glad to fill you in and what you are
attempting to paint as a musical fraud by non-cubans.
<<
Cubans were never recognized and compensated because of the American
economic embargo. >>
The
embargo has nothing to do with it. There's a lot of non-cubans who
never got royalties either. Simply due to a lack of ignorance and
business sense. The signed the dotted line without reading the fine
print. I can fill you in on stories of Cubans taking credit for compositions
they were not responsible for. Everyone including cubans are guilty
of this. So let's not call the kettle black shall we?....
Cecilia
Cruz, the Queen of New York Salsa states, "Salsa is Cuban music
with another name. It's mambo, chachacha, rumba, son, all the Cuban
rhythms under one name"
CELIA,
not Cecilia, is wrong. How can I prove it? Like I said, go out and
buy a record and for christ's sake listen to it. If you know you're
rhythms, you'll know that many SALSA songs include not just one but
several influences. Including Celia. USTED ABUSO has Brazilian influences
throughout. Don't believe me? Buy the CD and find out what Brazilian
music is if you don't already know...
<< Sue Steward, author of Musica and the Salsa section of the
World Music: The
Rough Guide. pg. 494.
No
one, no matter how anti-communist their stance would deny that Salsa
is essentially Cuban music. >>
This
is how little you know about SALSA if you're referring to SUE STEWARDS
book as a point of reference. There are as many holes and errors in
this book as there are flaws in your perceptions of what SALSA is...
<<
Vernon W. Boggs
Salsiology: Afro-CUBAN music and the
Evolution of Salsa in New York.
pg. 104. Despite all the changes that the music underwent, it is still
fundamentally Cuban popular music often called Salsa.
It is important to note Boggs dislikes the term Salsa, prefering to
it, Afro-Cuban jazz or popular Cuban music. >>
"It
is important to note that BOGGS...". This is HIS opinion. Not
mine. You don't have a mind of your own or judgement of your own to
decided what this music is based on the facts?......
<<
Every Cuban and Latin American person living in Latin America knows
that Salsa is basically Cuban music. What do you call the music played
by Los Van Van, Irakere, Abalberto y su Son, etc.?>>
Songo........Afro-Cuban
Jazz.........Son. That's what these three bands play. Comprende?
<<
Most of these bands developed in Cuba without hearing New York Salsa
for many years because of the economic embargo. >>
Wrong
again. Irakere was formed after Chucho listened to Cortijo's TIME
MACHINE album. If the embargo was so powerful in shutting out Cuba
musically how did the USA become privy to Mozambique, which is of
Cuban origin, and which Eddie Palmieri made popular here in the states?
How did Los Van Van come up with Songo? What about Timba? You tak
as if the embargo has been lifted. Last time I checked it was still
there. Chucho himself has stated various times how he has many Jazz
influences as well as being influenced by many a Nuyorican pianist
among them Eddie Palmieri and Hilton Ruiz....
<<
You can call your music Salsa, and I'll call mine Son, by really it
is the same music. Salsa is just name that caught on. It is more commercial
name than Afro-Cuban music. Salsa is an Americanized version of Cuban.
Latinos in the United States of all countries seem to accept Salsa
as their own, even though Salsa has nothing to do the reality back
home. >>
This
statement right here proves that you haven't listened to more than
5 records of SALSA in your life. To continue with you on this issue
would be pointless. I'm dealing with a culturally and musically illiterate
individual.
You ever heard of the song Pedro Navaja? Calle Luna Calle Sol? Cuidate
Juan? Buscando Guayaba? Justicia? La Libertad Logico? Together? Hipocresia
Y Falsedad?
All these songs relate to each and EVERY latin American coutnry in
South America and the Caribbean as well as North America, Europe,
and the entire globe.
If you
can't understand WHY it would relate then I sugest some serious Spanish
lessons and I don't mean translations from Alta Vista either, becasue
it won't help you? I'm beggining to doubt you even know what Son is.
<<
Rumba is not even a Rumba, it is actually a Cuban son. >>
What
the hell? You mean RHUMBA with an H? Okay I'll give you that one...
<<
I respect New York Salsa because it has a history and culture. But
L.A.? That is Hollywood. >>
Huh?
I don't get it. Hollywood has no history or culture. You know who
Cuban Pete is man? How about Chico Sesma? Ever hear of Cal Tjader?
What's wrong with you? What separates NY from having a history and
culture to LA? You shooting yourself in the foot with every statement
you make...
<<
When Black people started dancing Lindy Hop during the Swing era in
Jazz, the whites imitated them, but in a style more culturally acceptable,
less "savage". >>
Less savage? Do you mean less black? You really are an ignorant Mo'Fo'...
<<
There are more spins, dips and spins in California style salsa, but
the dancers are often rhythmically challenged. >>
And
how have you come to this conclusion? A book perhaps?.....
<<
In Montreal and Europe, where people are less willing to accept Americanized
version of things, Cuban style salsa dancing is more popular. You
can this music whatever you want but in the end it is still Cuban.
>>
No way Jose Kim. If it was still Cuban, then it wouldn't be Salsa.
You'd just like to make it that way. My suggestion to you is to say
15 our Father's, 20 Hail Mary's and four shots of Bloody Mary and
listen to the album COSA NUESTRA by Willie Colón and Hector
Lavoe twenty times over singing along to each song as your pennance.
Repeat the same process and then listen to LUCUMI, MACUMBA, VOODOO
40 times over.
My deepest
sympathies....
Rumbero
"Por
Eso Yo Canto Salsa"/Fania All Stars
July
18, 2001
Hi Rose -- My name is Richie Blondet and I am a journalist/music reviewer,
a concert promoter and a member of an organization called L.A.D.O.
(Latin American Dance Organization) aimed specifically to assist dancers
get their due. I have written for Salsaweb, Salsajam, and Oasissalsero
among others. I've also sat down with and Q&A'd more than half
of the people Jo Kim is referring to and am also a huge collector
of this music in the form of CD's, old LP's, videos, Books, posters,
newspaper clippings, etc. I've also done extensive research on the
the music from Cuba, Puerto Rico, New York and have recently done
research on the musical culture of The Dominican Republic and Venezuela.
Forgive me if I was a bit abrasive on your board, but that guy was
coming out with some pretty ludicrous stuff. It's okay if he prefers
to call this music SON or believe it's Afro-Cuban music. That's his
opinion. But the information he was using to back it up made no sense
and was completely off the mark. Like his review of the movie Our
Latin Thing which never once mentioned Cuba or Africa as he had stated.
And interpreting what others were quoted as saying. Like Willie Colsn.
Jo Kim does not understand what SALSA is because Jo Kim did not grow
up in the 1960s and 70s. Salsa, much like Hip Hop today was considered
a culture. A lifestyle. Yes, the Cuban Son is much a part of SALSA.
Very much so. But it is not simply Cuban Son that exists within SALSA.
There is also the vocals phrasings of Plena. Bomba rhythms, Cumbia
rhythms, Samba, Jazz, Rock and R&B.
There does exist groups who utilize simply Afro-Cuban music and that's
it. But it's the media's fault for labeling everything under SALSA.
And like I told Jo Kim and everyone else, if you want to know how
or where and when this music was developed, just listen to the recordings.
The proof is right there. For someone to say that SALSA had always
been in existence in Cuba from the 1940s and on hasn't been listening
too well or is going by what others have written or stated without
bothering to have investigated themselves. For every remark Jo Kim
has on the subject I could provide a rebuttal with documented evidence
of where he can look it up and attempt to prove me wrong.
Take Care and Congratulations on your site....
Richie
July 18, 2001 -- 2nd email from Richie as
I thanked him and told him how I couldn't believe how one simple email
back in January can create so many passionate replies... Rose Knows...
That topic has been a subject of controversy for years. The weird
thing is that there are more non-Cubans and non-Cuban musicians making
this claim of SALSA being another name for recycled Cuban Music, then
there are Cuban musicians themselves.
I came across your site via the SALSAEROCORNER yahoo club. The moderator
posted the link and I checked it out. Lately I've been staying out
of this type of debate becuase it grows tiresome after awhile, but
I HAD to respond to Jo Kim's statements. He as so matter of factly
stated facts that were simply not true and can be verified by anyone.
You don't have to be a ethnomusicologist to know anything about this
music.
I've been surrounded by the music all of my life, yet I never really
took an interest in documenting it or researching it extensively until
about 1993. As a child I assumed this music was Puertorican Fokloric
music. When I got older, like Jo Kim, I had assumed that it was Cuban.
Everythin gI read hada Cuban slant or was only about Afro-Cuban music
history. One thing that peaked my interest was reading an article
on the life of Mario Bauza and he stated that when he came to this
country for the first time and began playing with African American
jazz bands, he noticed over quickly that there were already Latinos
playing in these big bands. Unfortunately that's as far as he went
on the subject as the interviewer never pursued who exactly was here
before Bauza arrived. This piqued my cuirosity and got me into doing
heavy research during the 1920s & 30s in New York City. And what
I found blew me away and the whole notion that CUBA is the homeland
of SALSA! . The Motherland for SON is CUBA. But SALSA was an american
concoction based in New York and spread like wildfire around the globe.
America is a melting pot. Mario Bauza, a cuban, said it himself, "This
music does nto come from Cuba, and it does not come from Puerto Rico....but
comes from New York City....this is the only place where it could
have happened....".
I am still researching to this very day a learn something new everyday
and will never stop until I have covered each and every base possible,
not just of Cuba, NYC and Puerto Rico but everywhere where Salsa is
popular and interpreted. Right now I'm doing heavy research on the
Dance. The roots, the interpreters, who the innovators are/were, etc.
Stuff like that.
I was born in New York City, New York of Puertorican parentage. Despite
being proud of my heritage and culture, I do not make the mistake
of being patriotic when it comes to the music. I give credit where
credit is due. I love Cuba and it's culture and Cuba has to and must
be commended for it's enormous influence on the way we dance, the
way we sing and play. But the sun dont'set and the sun don't shine
with just Cuba. Groups like Niche credit Cuba as an influence yet
hey have their own cultural inflections like Cumbia from Colombia
that permeates their music. Oscar D'Leon always gives crdit to Cuba
but he has aded his Venezuelan Sabor and swing to the musical format
that doesn't come out of any Cuban influence whatsoever. Poeple talk
about singers being "Soneros" and identifying it with the
word SON. However, there are many Puertoricans who had this improvisational
gift that had or has nothign to do with SON but with PLENA. The Plena
is n! ot just a rhythmical pattern but also a musical style. The entire
basis of Plena is the improvisation. It is refered to as the Poeple's
Newspaper, because Plena's were based on the goings on of the neighborhood
or would take on a satirical viewpoint on a subject matter. Ismael
Rivera, Cheo Feliciano, Hector Lavoe, Cano Estremera, Gilberto Santa
Rosa, Victor Manuelle, and other Puertorican singers did not go to
any Cuban conservatory to learn ho to sing or improvise. It was a
natural thing and this comes out of the Puertorican Plena facet of
improvisation. Cuba's greatest sonero himself crowned Ismael Rivera
"El Sonero Mayor". (The Grand or Best Sonero) Paying homage
to the Afro-Rican Ismael Rivera. If Beny More can give credit why
can't someone like Jo Kim or any one else?
I know for a fact that anything I say will not dissaudae Jo and he
will continue to believe what they believe. But I have to respond
to his statements lest someone take what he says as being gospel.
It would bea disservice and a crime if when the final chapter is written
on this music, that CUBA is left to take sole credit for it's development.
I've got photos of Cuban bands that include many puertoricans, african
americans and even Dominicans. To say that Cubans were the ones who
solely developed this music is false. The blueprint or structure of
the music is cuban based. Yet when other elements are thrown in, it
stops being simply Cuban Music or SON. It's something much more. If
it's just SON in the music then it wouldn't be called SALSA.
Regards,
Richie
July
19, 2001 - Support for Richie Rumbero
All I
have to say is THANK YOU Richie Rumbero! Your reply was extremely
informative, it made me aware of facts that I had not been previously
aware of. To everybody who read his excellent reply, I hope that you
all finally realise that Salsa is NUYORICAN, that NYC was the birthplace
of this amazing music.
I am
so sick and tired of reading and hearing that Salsa is Cuban music,
it is musical revisionism of the worst kind. Willie Colon is correct
when he says that politics, economics, ego, and nationalism are at
the core of the Cuban campaign to falsely reclaim a music that was
never theirs in the first place.
Cuban
musicians were the least involved in Salsa; while salsa was being
created in NYC, Cuban musicians in Cuba were developing the Mozambique
style. Cubans in NY wanted to soley play Charanga and were the least
interested in playing Salsa.
This
campaign of falsehoods and fallacies being perpetrated by particular
members of the Cuban musical community and their subservient lapdogs
is an outrage. My question is, what do they hope to gain from spreading
these lies? Record deals?, movie contracts?, best-selling biographies?
Many
individuals, like Jo Kim, believe that Cuban music just magically
appeared one day; that it has no roots; that it is soley Cuban. The
roots of the Son and other Cuban genres derive from Africa and Spain.
Why isn't Jo Kim making the claim that the Son is "really"
Spanish-African? Why aren't Africans and Spaniards on a campaign to
"reclaim" their musical heritage? Is Son as popular and
commercially successful as Salsa? Has Son become as internationalised
as Salsa? No. Is this really a pathetic attempt to reap the benefits
and fruits of other people's musical labour? Certain Mambo artists
of the 1960s undertook a similar strategy; when salsa started developing
in NYC and becoming ever more popular, these artists went out of there
way to claim that this new music was "really" Mambo, and
that these salsa musicians were essentially playing the same music
as the mambo artists. What was really happening here is that Mambo
was being swept away by the popular tide of NYC Salsa; they somehow
were not able to succes
The same thing is happening now with the "Salsa is from Cuba"
campaign, it is a criminal attempt to discredit and deny NYC salsa
artists their rightful place in history. Further, it is a shameful
attempt to unjustly reap the benefits of an ever popular music that
has never had anything to do with Cuba. Why don't these Cuban musicians
market Timba, Son, Songo, Mozambique?
Jo Kim
falsely claims that Salsa existed in 1950s Cuba. Anyone with an ounce
of intelligence will realise that this is a complete fallacy. An excellent
example of 1950s Cuban music is the BVSC album. These musicians have
not done anything new, they are regurgitating what was popular in
1950s Cuba. Now, listen to that album and then put on some Barretto,
Lavoe, Colon, Rivera. Compare and contrast. Any similarities? NO.
Could you dance salsa to the BVSC album? NO. Do you hear the BVSC
being played at the Latin Quarter in NY or the Mayan in L.A.? NO.
Why? It is not salsa.
With
regards to Cuban style dancing, here is another bit of information
that individuals like Jo Kim forget to mention. Rueda Casino came
out of 1950s Cuba. It was developed as a style for dancing Cha-Cha.
Casino is not "authentic" salsa dancing. It was only years
later when it was brought over to North America that it gradually
crossed over and developed into a style of dancing Salsa. Meanwhile,
NY style salsa dancing was well underway and established.
I agree
again with what Willie Colon says about salsa dancing. Modern salsa
dancers (NY and LA salseros) have created and developed styles that
is light years away from any Cuban style of dancing (bent knees and
wiggly asses). L.A. salseros have revolutionised salsa dancing, they
have taken it to a new level of sophistication and popularity. The
West Coast salsa congress is one of the most popular dance events
in the world. The Mayan salsa competition is one of the most prestigious
dance competitions around. Cuban style dancing (originally Cha-Cha
dancing) has remained frozen in 1950s Cuba.
What
I would recommend to people out there is, as Richie says, to listen
to the records; compare Cuban music records with Salsa records and
you will see obvious differences. You will discover that Cuba never
had anyhting that remotely resembled the sound of Salsa. -- Andres
September
21, 2001
Direct response to Richie Rumbero on Jo Kim's Rebuttal
Rose!
I'm a woman from Perú and I really think your site is awesome
but adding Richie's comments to it has made a lot of yours readers
go somewhere else. You do not need to present this guy to the cyber-salseros,
we all know him and we know what to expect from him. I do not really
think that the vulgar expressions and rudeness he used on your board
are funny and neither believe he is a journalist.
Did you know that salsaweb.com has no more forums in part due to your
hero Richie was offending and threatening anyone posting a topic related
to salsa's cuban roots. Unfortunately for this music "expert"
or "salsa dictador" as he's known among many of us, The
USA and Canada are free countries and he'll have a battle foverer
since he won't be able to change people's mind with his arguments
that can not be proven and may confused someone like Andres who obviously
has no notion about music and just repeated who Richie said. Richie
has read a lot of books, has listened to a lot of tapes, LPs, CDs,
has watched a lot of movies related to salsa but can not present valid
proofs to convince the cyber-salseros that salsa did not come from
Cuba.
I'm not a musician, a musicologist, a salsa expert or a very good
dancer, I'm just a person who loves this music and come to the web
to get the latest and have some fun. I've been in Cuba, in PR and
in New York and Richie, I've got tell you something, there is no place
in the world like Cuba. In Cuba you can feel the music in the air,
you can see kids playing rumba in the streets, you can see Puerto
Ricans like Giovanny Hidalgo learning on congas from Changuito, Tata
güines and many others. Music in Cuba is their people's food.
That's why most non-cuban, non-PR, non-NYrkn latinos like me that
have researched a little bit on the evolution of salsa and have been
in places related to it, believe that salsa is 90% cuban music, I
say 90% because I recognize that P Ricans have done a great job developing
it, New Yorikans coined it and added new sounds, but it will be Cuban
until it looses "The Clave" which is Cuban, the 3+2 is Cuban
not African and the instruments used in salsa were made by Cubans,
mixing African drums with Spanish barrels and instruments.
The Willy Colon comments are known www my dear Richie, everyone knows
that he is an anti-cuban but just puerto ricans like you support him.
I can not believe he saying that cubans have no malicia, I had never
ever heard someone say something like that, cubans have more picardia
then any other latinos and can improvise better than PRs. Actually
I do not know a PR that can beat Candido Fabre or PR who can establish
a Decima güajira cubana. To finish today, I asked Cheo Feliciano
about what he thinks about Willy Colon's salsa concept and he told
me that he would go to Cuba a gozar y bailar de verdad, a bailar a
la casa del trompo...
My dear please change that Richie name and put Izzy's (MR SALSA) comments
about salsa instead..go to salsamagazine.com
Regards...
Timbera Peruana
September
23, 2001
Dear Timbera, I'm glad you love our website, and you are entitled
to your opinion, but so is Richie Rumbero. This is an open forum for
anyone who would like to contribute. He is not my "hero",
but I was entertained by how many facts he was using in his rebuttal
to Jo Kim in his passionate response.
Like you, I'm not a musician, a musicologist, a salsa expert and I
hope I'm a half-decent dancer -- I'm just a person who also loves
this music and developed this webpage because I love salsa.
And to think that Richie Rumbero would have such power as to remove
the Salsaweb message board is ludicrous. It is gone, not because of
him, but because there have been many corporate changes on Salsaweb.com,
along with the Salsaweb Mall and the Partner Search.
And if posting everyone's opinions about salsa makes people go elsewhere,
then that's their freedom of choice. This website is not about who's
right or wrong, but about the love of the dance and the music -- Rose
Knows.
September
26, 2001
RE: Timbera Peruana's letter
Hi Rose, I'm a reasonably successful professional salsa instructor and
choreographer from Toronto. Like you guys, I'm not a musicologist (who
is anyway?) but I do a bit of dancing. Additionally, as a choreographer
I think I listen to the music a little harder than your average salsero
because in order to put a killer routine together, you really have to
be aware of the nuances and accents in the music.
I'm writing
in response to Timbera Peruana's letter. This young lady has definitely
expressed her passion for cuban musical culture; in fact, it sounded
a lot like what I've heard people say upon returning from Puerto Rico.
But what
she didn't do for me is rebut either of Richie Rumbero's two points
that I found most persuasive. The first is to just listen to the music.
I've listened to Cuban tracks from way back, and they just don't sound
like the New York descarga-style salsa from the '70s, like by Fania
etc., that hardcore dancers all over the world like myself need for
our regular salsa fix. Sure there are many of the same instruments
and they use the clave rhythm, but that's where the similarity ends.
There are also plenty of new instruments used and the music has a
totally different..."style" and "feel". Actually,
since I'm not a musicologist it's difficult for me to describe the
difference in words, but as soon as I compare my ear I have no trouble
distinguishing.
Which
leads to another point that Timbera actually reinforced. She said
that as long as the music has the clave it's Cuban. Okay, so let's
say my band plays the bagpipes, the banjo and the French horn to a
clave beat while singing in Swedish. Is that also Cuban music? Sorry,
I think we need to have a bit of a sense of humour about this....
but seriously, part of my genes come from my grandfather - does that
mean I AM my grandfather? No, I'd never forget the contribution he
made to who I am, but we're different people.
If Timbera
is really a "timbera", I'm sure she can appreciate that
adding instruments (eg rock drums) can help create a new sound with
a new name (eg timba). So there's no need to deny that adding jazz
and big band sounds, plus a little barrio sabor, created salsa. By
the way Timbera, I'm not Cuban or Puerto Rican so I'm not biased in
any way, and I'm totally open-minded so I invite you to list some
songs I can listen to that will prove your point.
Love
your site, Rose, keep at it. -- Oren
September
27, 2001
Hello Rose,
I recently discovered your site while browsing Timba.com's forum.
I'm Colombian and I do love Salsa music, I have read a lot books related
to its origins. I recently bought "Music from Cuba" by Charley
Gerard, after reading a posting by a Cuban guy in Oasissalsero.com.
I discovered a bunch of interesting points that explain all about
Cuban roots in what we call today Latin Music or Salsa. First, I want
to tell Oren that I have a vast collection of old Cuban music (20's,
30's, 40's, 50's ) and "yes" you can hear the differece
in the sound if compared to FANIA's sound in the 70s, the same comparission
can be made in Cuba if you compare Son Montuno "Echale Salsita"
by Ignacio Piqeiro recorded in the 20's with Arsenio's Fuego en el
23. The music is constantly changing and that's inevitable. Timbera's
clave theory can be understood by someone who knows about music. Oren,
you may be a professional dancer but you have no rumba in your blood
and your words make no sense. I can take a pair of claves and play
them 3+2 while listening to Metallica and of course it won't be Cuban
music but we're not talking about just hitting the sticks, we are
talking about following its rhythm, the rhythm of San Cubano. Colombia
has always recognize Cuba as "The mother of latin rhythms"
our musicians are more likely to play Cuban music than Boricua. Fruko
has dedicated albums to Cuban montunos, Niche has dedicated dozens
of songs to Cuba and recently released "Propuesta" Gali
says "tiene sabor cubano y gozaras te lo juro. The fisrt Sonora
in the world was Matancera, have you heard them? Not much the difference
with FANIA! Sonora Matancera was a big band in the 50's and had the
jazz sound, Conjunto Casino "Rumba pa' los Rumberos" have
you heard that descarga? Benny More "Repica bongo" and thousands
of more songs played by Cubans in the 50's that were copied by FANIA.
JAZZ was already in Cuba, JAZZ was influenced by Cubans. Do you think
that Tito Puentes rejected the word Salsa and said that they were
playing Cuban music knowing that Salsa was a new rhythm? As well as
Machito who was the teacher of all Boricuas in NY. "Arsenio Rodriguez",
do you know why he has been named "The Father of Salsa"
do a research and listen to his music. Oren, Please post your address
and I'll send you a CD with old Cuban Music for you to compare. Also
buy a CD called "LOS HEROES" by "Las Estrellas del
Areito" which is a reply to Salsa directly from Cuba in the 70's,
this is the best Latin Music CD yo can buy. To finish I'll post what
Puerto Rican "Percussionist" Johnny Almendra says:
The One
thing that salseros forget is that every single rhythm that we play
originated in Cuba. Unless you're playing bomba or plena. We play
a tumbao and people forget que eso es cubano ("that's cuban").
And the many variations of it as well. The people that taught us were
the old cubanos like Mongo, Peraza, Candido, and Julian Cabrera. All
those guys used to pull my ears: "Mira , estas haciendo eso mal!"
("look, you're doing that badly!") ...You have to acknoledge
where the music came from. Yes, Puerto Rico has its own style of Salsa,
but its origins are from Cuba. We play it our way, with our Puerto
Rican flavor , attitude, and influence, but the roots are still there
in Cuba.
Papi Lugo
September
28, 2001 - Response to Oren's response
Oren,
How can you compare the development of an artform to the procreation
of children? But let's take your model for argument's sake, that Cuban
Son is the grandfather. Without the granparents, the grandchildren wouldn't
exist. And if Son is the grandfather, then Mambo and chachacha are the
parents. Most of the musicians of the Fania era played mambo and chachacha.
Mambo and chachacha are from Cuba. Where in New York or Puerto Rico
can you find close relatives to salsa? You can't !! Other music did
influence Salsa, like you mentioned, plena, rock and roll, cumbia, merengue
and jazz, but these would be second cousins, a distant uncle. Salsa
could not exist without Cuban music. The musicians of the Fania were
great and they created a new sound. But if these musicians from New
York had not existed, we would still be dancing something very close
to salsa, like how other types of Cuban music like mambo and chachacha
had dominated Europe and the United States earlier. Also, Jazz was not
introduced by New York Puerto Ricans to this kind of music, it was introduced
in Cuba. When you say Salsa is totally new that it didn't come from
anywhere, it ignores the people who did 80-90% of the work.
It's just a sexier name to give an impression of newness.
For example, to market Cuban Son in Europe and the United States, they
called it Rumba because it sounded more commercial. When you add a new
instrument to Cuban music, it has to follow the beat or ryhthm of the
music. If you added bagpipes or sang it Swedish, it would still have
to follow the clave. Actually, Salsa Celtica had bagpipes in their band.
Where they learn to play salsa? Why in Cuba. When you play any instrument
to the clave, the music sounds more Cuban. Why can't you add a banjo
to Cuban music? As a professional dance instructor you shoud really
check out Cuban music more and not just the Buena Vista Club. Cuban
Salsa is especially designed for dancers, it has more nuances for dancers,
not just breaks where you are supposed to dip the girl. For me, the
salsa coming out of New York sounds tired and worn out, or too New Age
like the music of Ruben Blades -- Chincub
October 2, 2001 - North American Style vs.
Latin style
Latin music is danced with the heart and the soul. North American style
is a competition with steps and a lot of these people in Toronto and
some North American cities can dance without music, if you dance with
the heart you follow the music and the steps will follow the music.
In Toronto they do acrobacy and they follow steps, if you go to South
America and do this probably you will get tips. You suppose to express
music with your body and enjoy it.
Toronto style is good to see it once or twice, after becomes boring,
it is the same over and over -- Gerard
October
5, 2001 -- Responses to my letter
Rose! What've I gotten myself into? I had to join this argument after
avoiding it for so long just to realize how stupid it is!
The Cuban-lovers
say the rhythms of salsa are Cuban, so salsa is Cuban. The PR/NY-lovers
say there are other differences in style (between salsa and old Cuban
music), so salsa is New-Yorican. They're both correct in their premises,
so who has the right conclusion? I guess that depends on what your
bias is, or if you're really honest, what you believe defines a type
of music.
What
ends up happening is that everyone just shouts what they're thinking
and there's no intelligent discourse - for example when Chincub accuses
me of saying "salsa is totally new and it didn't come from anywhere":
I didn't say that, I just said it didn't sound like old Cuban music
to me. That was why I had tried to respond directly to Timbera in
context of what Richie said. So I bow out due to anticipated frustration.
"Papi
Lugo", I appreciate you acknowledging my point about those differences
in sound and I'd love to hear your CD - I'll give my address to Rose
to give to you if the offer is still open. But you should know that
my blood absolutely boils with rumba, not to mention what's my feet,
hips and shoulders. Not only that, but I'm starting to wonder whether
you've got baila in your kidneys, or gossa in your left butt cheek.
Now let's keep this dialogue intelligent and constructive, shall we?
-- Oren
November
2, 2001 -- Response to La Peruana Timbera from Richie Rumbero
<< I'm a woman from Perú and I really think your site
is awesome but adding Richie's comments to it has made a lot of yours
readers go somewhere else. >>
And
you have the evidence handy to prove this right? Modesty aside and
without even knowing, I'll bet the hit count maxed upon this site
after my rebuttal. You can thank Jo Kim for that...
<<
You do not need to present this guy to the cyber-salseros, we all
know him and we know what to expect from him. >>
You
do not know me so please stop portraying as if you do....
<<
I do not really think that the vulgar expressions and rudeness he
used on your board are funny and neither believe he is a journalist.
>>
The
Vulgar expressions and rudeness? Excuse me but did you read some of
Jo Kim's statements? I'm the bad guy but he or she is a saint because
he or she is preaching about how Cuba singlehandedly developed Salsa
on their own. What I find vulgar and rude is how you all despise the
term Salsa and throw it to the ground in disdain, yet you're quick
to claim it as your own and no one else's. Hmmmmm....
<<
Did you know that salsaweb.com has no more forums in part due to your
hero Richie was offending and threatening anyone posting a topic related
to salsa's cuban roots. >>
Did
you know that before I was supposedly threatening and offending people,
Salsaweb's Message Board would constantly be on the fritz and often
erase all of it's content due to the server? I will say that the closing
of the Dancers United Discussion Forum was due in part to me. What
can I say? Next time I'll use the term "muthaflower" instead...
<<
Unfortunately for this music "expert" or "salsa dictador"
>>
El Dictador
de la Salsa. I like the sounds of that. "Off with her head!...".
<<
The USA and Canada are free countries and he'll have a battle foverer
since he won't be able to change people's mind with his arguments
that can not be proven and may confused someone like Andres who obviously
has no notion about music and just repeated who Richie said. >>
You
have a choice. You can either oblige my statements in listening to
the recordings and showing otherwise where it is that I am wrong in
my statements. Or you can sit back and not do anything and complain
about hwo offended you are with my vulgarity and ruideness. And just
what was the vulgar & rude statements that I made? That Salsa
isn't recycled Cuban Music? God forbid anyone would say that!...
<<
Richie has read a lot of books, has listened to a lot of tapes, LPs,
CDs, has watched a lot of movies related to salsa but can not present
valid proofs to convince the cyber-salseros that salsa did not come
from Cuba. >>
I've
read two books. One called LATIN JAZZ and the other called TITO PUENTE:
The King of Latin Music. I have no "Salsa tapes" that have
Salsa music other than the ones I sneak into clubs with to record
the bands playing live. I don't have one single LP related to Salsa
in my possession. (I don't think Bobby Capo or Johnny Albino count
as Salseros.) I've got as many CD's as the next guy. None of the so-called
movies related to Salsa has ever influenced me or taught me anything.
If anything, what I've found in movies like THE MAMBO KINGS, DANCE
WITH ME, SALSA w. Robby Rosa as just how much Hollywood disrespects
the culture and tries to smokescreen it from their target audience.
The non-salsero audience. There has yet to be a film that depicts
SALSA or an era of it's hey day without any misconceptions or exagerrations
or stereotypes.
BTW-Dirty Dancing had to do with Mambo. The Catskill resorts/hotels
and the dancing between Johnny and Baby were Mambo & Cha-Cha-Cha.
Yet the film's producers call it Dirty Dancing. Hollywood gets the
thumbs down from me so no film depicting Salsa in any ay has taught
me anything I wasn't already aware of. What more proof do you need
than to listen to the recordings themselves. It's painfully obvious
that from the 1920s to the present there's been a clear and present
evolution regarding Cuban Music. A Cha-Cha-Cha, Mambo, Guaguancó,
Charanga, etc. are all SON influenced. Yet they have their own identities.
Why is SALSA so special that it cannot have it's own I.D.? Is it because
that so many non-Cubans were prominent in it's development and it's
popularity throughout the world? You and thsoe of you who share the
same thought process are doing a disservice to yourselves and to your
culture. Rather than preaching inclusion and growth, you prefer exclusivity
and to manipulating a culture (The Salsa Culture) that has done more
for race relations than any civil rights movement. But I guess you're
still hoping for a return to the back of the bus rule....
<<
I'm not a musician, a musicologist, a salsa expert or a very good
dancer, I'm just a person who loves this music and come to the web
to get the latest and have some fun. >>
Could
have fooled me. You come across as the expert and musicologist. Is
talking caca your way of also having fun? Wooops I was rude there...sorry....
<<
I've been in Cuba, in PR and in New York and Richie, I've got tell
you something, there is no place in the world like Cuba. >>
To each
is own. Para los gustos se hicieron los colores...
<<
In Cuba you can feel the music in the air, you can see kids playing
rumba in the streets, you can see Puerto Ricans like Giovanny Hidalgo
learning on congas from Changuito, Tata güines and many others.
>>
Man,
that's weird because in NYC, I can see the exact same thing except
I don't see Giovanni being taught anything but raher playing alongside
Changuito, Candido, Patato, Chico Freeman, The Palladium Big 3 Orchestra,
etc.
BTW-One
of the biggest myths that mostly Cubans, ignorant boricuas or wannabees
such as yourself are guilty of is the notion that Giovanni was taught
by Changuito. This is false. In Giovanni's own words:
Interviewer
(Goyo): "Any opinions on what is now known as Timba? Are not
there some similarities with the Songo played by Batacumbele in the
80's?"
Giovanni:
"You can see in both influences from guaguancó, abacuá,
bomba, charanga, as well as North American influences. My compadre
Changuito developed this style in Cuba and me in Puerto Rico when
we did not know each other. I got to know about Changuito through
Cachete and I remember asking Cachete, "why does he play like
I do?" Timba keeps growing and Songo is Son and "Go Go".
We also need to see their historical connection with what people like
Joe Battan and Pete Rodriguez did".
You
can find this interview at the following url: http://www.latinjazznet.com/special_features/batacumbele/giovanni.htm
<<
Music in Cuba is their people's food. That's why most non-cuban, non-PR,
non-NYrkn latinos like me that have researched a little bit on the
evolution of salsa and have been in places related to it, believe
that salsa is 90% cuban music >>
See,
the problem with people such as yourself is that just because I happen
to say that Salsa is not entirely Cuban Popular Music, you assume
that I MUST mean that it's Puertorican or some other origin. Yes,
90 to 95% of the music in Salsa has Cuban Roots. 90%+ of the structure
in Salsa songs are Cuban influenced and in origin. But the fallacy
is to believe that ONLY Cubans had a hand in developing Cuban Popular
Music. All the way from the Machito Band to the bands of today has
there been non-cubans involved in the evolution of Salsa....
<<
I say 90% because I recognize that P Ricans have done a great job
developing it, New Yorikans coined it and added new sounds, but it
will be Cuban until it looses "The Clave" which is Cuban,
the 3+2 is Cuban not African and the instruments used in salsa were
made by Cubans, mixing African drums with Spanish barrels and instruments.
>>
You're
contradicting yourself. You say they added new sounds yet it will
remain Cuban due to the clave? Does this make sense? Your statement
reeks nothing but of a blueprint of a superiority complex. Was the
piano or Trumpet or Bass made by Cubans? Do Europeans have an argument
that Cuban music is really their music? How come Africans don't beef
about Cubans playing their drums? This is not a strong measuring stick
to go by Ms. Timbera. You need to come up with a more substantial
argument to give it some weight. Creating instruments does not equate
to owning and establishing a musical genre....
<<
The Willy Colon comments are known www my dear Richie, everyone knows
that he is an anti-cuban but just puerto ricans like you support him.
>>
I am
Anti-Revisionism. Comments such as yours about Cubans being the be
all, end all of Salsa have swept the tireless contribution made by
many non-cubans to this musical culture. It just so happens that the
people who tend to be talking all this ying yang happen to be Cuban
or "wish they were's" like you. BTW-The comments are known
now because I posted them on this site. And I stand by it and support
it and endorse it 2000%. Not because of any patriotic allegiance,
but because it happens to be the truth.....
<<
I can not believe he saying that cubans have no malicia, I had never
ever heard someone say something like that, cubans have more picardia
then any other latinos and can improvise better than PRs. Actually
I do not know a PR that can beat Candido Fabre or PR who can establish
a Decima güajira cubana. >>
This
is the most absurd statement yet. Excuse my bluntness Ms. Peruana
Timbera but Candido Fabre couldn't be a pimple on a Puertorican Sonero's
ass. Is Candido the best repersentative of Cuban popular musc you
could come up with? Candido is a far cry from Ismael Rivera, Chamaco
Ramirez, Hector Lavoe, Cheo Feliciano, Pete El Conde, etc.
PS-Why would a Puertorican WANT to establish a Decima Guajira Cubana?
It's too corny. We'd never touch it...
<<
To finish today, I asked Cheo Feliciano about what he thinks about
Willy Colon's salsa concept and he told me that he would go to Cuba
a gozar y bailar de verdad, a bailar a la casa del trompo... >>
You
could have asked Tito Puente from the grave Peruana Timbera. If you
really want to make a splash why don't you prove Cheo's love affair
with some facts?
BTW-Cheo
will be in NYC during the month of November. I'll be sure to ask him
of his opinion of Salsa being a concept and if he knows any Peruana
Timbera's for that matter...
<<
My dear please change that Richie name and put Izzy's (MR SALSA) comments
about salsa instead..go to salsamagazine.com >>
What
did Izzy, (Who's a good friend of mine), say on his site that I'm
not saying? Izzy has me quoted up and down his site Peruana. Have
you even bothered to read the content on his site? It certainly doesn't
advocate the legend you and others have created in your own minds
that Salsa came out of Cuba before anyone else had anything to do
with it.
Forgive
me my dear but all that you wrote did not counter nor provide any
substantial info regarding your claim that Salsa is merely Cuban music
with another name.
Toodles....
Rumbero
December
7, 2001
Hi Rose! please post this in the "origins of salsa" subject
area, and I keep up the excellent work cause I luv your site!;
Good
god! U mean I haven't been dancing salsa all this time?!!?!?? All
these lessons have been a misguided attempt at becoming a salsa god
when in reality I'm just being a "latin ballroom" geek and
real latinos would laugh at me if they saw me. Well, that's it, no
more of this latin ballroom nonsense for me! And all this at a time
when I was finally beginning to differentiate between salsa and merengue!!!!!
Such silliness, I love these salsa origin debates, they're such a
delicious way to waste time and just a good old fashioned way to vent
unwarranted frustration like the "salsa dictator" (I kill
myself every time I remember that phrase). How on gods green earth
could u attach those two words together?!?!?!? Does Castro execute
salsa dissidents as well? Well, I think the salsa community should
create a commission of all the best instructors throughout North America
to settle this dispute, kinda of like the U.N. commissions on human
rights violations, because this is serious stuff that detracts from
the very essence of what it means to be human. I mean, what good is
life if we don't know where salsa comes from? And oh yeah, if u're
Cuban that can salsa please gimme a shout a poohsito@ireallycouldcareless.com
because I'd like to meet a real salsero for a change, I no longer
wanna associate with any of these silly latin ballroom dancers that
"think" they know that which they don't know, I'd like to
be in the enlightened camp so please gimme a shout. Thanks in advance
and since we're on the topic of serious subjects, do u think Winnie
the pooh likes honey more than peanut butter, or is he just one of
those latin ballroom scum that should be decapitated like the rest
of 'em!?!?!?
-Poohsito,
the non-cubano that wants to be a salsa god (a real salsa god! Not
one of those latin ballroom heathens!!! Off with their heads!!!!!)
-- Sam
December
15, 2001
Sam, I don't think anybody has exaggerated the debate to extent you
seem to depict. But I do think it is important to know where things
come from or the history of things. Maybe it's not important for you
to know that Taco Bell is not Mexican food, but it is important to
me. That's great if you like Latin Ballroom dancing. But you should
know
there is nothing Latin about it. Even most of the songs in the competitions
are in English or Spanglish. The way you think about things are influenced
by people. Isn't sad if you accept what people tell you at face value.
But isn't funny that most of the people who
teach Latin ballroom dancing can't understand the words to most Salsa
songs. These people shouldn't teach salsa at all, if they consider
Latin Ballroom dancing different from Salsa, or they should admit
there is another equally valid way of dancing Salsa, Casino. LA style
salsa dancing is ballroom dancing in disguise. - JoeKim
December
22, 2001 - Salsa Styles
Rose -- In reading through the debates about Salsa
styles, is Salsa more about politics, genre, history rather than art.
As a dancer still in development, aren't we all? To the masters of
the art, talk to us as dancers or else we will not hear, nor will
we listen in.
There is no perfection in art, nor should there be
any culture or countries deserving of a greater or lessor credit towards
development of the art. Art is for us, the peoples, without which
there is no reason for its existance.
As dancers, we are moved by music, which reaches into
our minds and souls, leaving us unguarded. In times of this stimulus,
all things must stop to allow us to resonate to its accents, bravado,
passions, crescendoes, sorrow, fear, pride and laughter.
The power of the music is its mystery. I care not
about unraveling it. It is more important that the art takes on a
life of its own and progress. Therefore, I have no passion for debates
over its history, credits, nor this style versus that style. Dance
on 1 versus on 2, it is more about creativity allowing the music to
work on our mind and body, and may the musicians write and play music
to scrap us off the walls.
To a dancer, the degree to which we are familiar with
the cultural context of a piece of music, the sub-genre from which
it sprang, does it really intensifies or diminishes our enjoyment?
I think not!
I give thanks to the brilliance of the composers and
to the musicians. Continue to surprise me with this art and I will
be moved, regardless of its cultural weight or origin. To fellow Canadians,
we have the genius and the powers of the mind, we can progress, out
of the rut of this debate of one style versus another. As we know,
no one art is better than another.
Dances
that breaks the rules, I suspect, will be more engaging than that
which stays withing the bounds of our expectations. -- Richard
