The
Feedback....
January
10, 2001
Toronto Salsa vs Everybody Else
Hi ToSalsa,
I
have to be honest. The comments I read referring to what Toronto Salsa
is, or rather, what it should be, were bothersome.
In
an attempt to define Salsa, the authors (diplomatically, of course)
implied that what one sees on the dance floors in Toronto, LA or even
New York, is not "really" Salsa.
That's
disappointing. So, the debate to define Salsa continues...here's my
two cents and maybe more.
First,
who cares - enjoy it, have fun...that's what Salsa...that's what dance
is about.
Salsa
music is a mix of afro-carribean rythms like Son or Mambo. Some people
believe that Salsa was originated in Cuba, maybe Puerto Rico but definitely
someplace warm.
The
reality is that the movement that originatd this music or Salsa, began
in New York and does have a Jazz influence. Young, American musicians,
with Latin backgrounds, were mixing sounds and rhythms trying to come
up with a new one that would be different.
In
the 70's, Salsa music basically exploded and got the attention of the
entire world. Today, you can visit Japan or Hong Kong and say Salsa
and everybody knows what you're talking about.
So,
the music comes from New York but the dance moves come from...I did
some research (thank you Lord for the Internet) and you may not believe
this...cause, I didn't.
Sure,
we can talk about Mambo. But, that would be easy. So, where did Mambo
originate. Cuba? Mambo is the result of a long, cross-cultural journey
of African and European parents. This is why I love history.
Mambo
can be traced back to an unexpected source, despite its African resonance...it
is...English country dance. In the 17th century, it became the contredanse
at the French court and later, the contradanza in Spain.
In
the 18th century the contradanza reached Cuba where it was known as
danza and became the national dance.
Hatians
added a particularly spicy syncopation to it called the cinquillo, which
is also found in the tango...also derived from the contradanza. Gradually,
other cultural elements found their way into the contradanza.
By
the end of the 19th century, the contradanza evolved into a more spontaneous
dance by couples replacing the starchy formality of the contredanse.
So,
I guess what I'm trying to say is that Salsa has evolved from everywhere
and everyone. Let's enjoy it and learn from each other.
See
you on the dance floor, Mario
January 10, 2001
Difference in salsa styles
My first salsa instructor had been taught salsa in America (don't
know where) and he did a lot of cross body lead based routines (as
in Toronto). I later moved to my main instructor (Andre), a native
Cuban who learnt salsa at his mothers knee (not a lot of room, good
practice for night clubs later in life I'm sure). He had only just
started teaching cross body leads and spins due to the fact that local
competition was also doing so and students were asking for them. Prior
to this he taught very little in the way of routines using the X body
lead.
Many of the more advanced routines he did involved contrabody movement
and the necessity for a strong accurate lead for many reverses of
direction. I can't remember any particular routine but only the spirit
of them. On the occasion I can train with him again I still find myself
struggling with some of the moves as they flow so nicely when he does
them but I just get into knots (full double pretzel).
Personally I enjoy the spins and turns and dance with a great deal
of energy, but still wish I had the range of moves he could dance.
It looked slow and easy until you tried them, one indication of a
good dancer.
Another instructor (Columbian, Cesar) never taught a spin other than
a basic alemana or hook turn, everything else was footwork.
Athleticism seems to be the big difference, we do, they didn't.
What the heck -- dance and enjoy, Graham.
January
11, 2001
Well, believe it or not, this issue no longer fascinates me much.
I've had 2-1/2 years of people writing fussy emails and raising controversies
about the whole Cuban VS NY Style thing. Some folks want to go back
to Cuba, others want to keep it New York. I say everyone should just
dance whatever way they get the most pleasure from, and stop hassling
each other. The roots of modern cars were pulled by horses, now we
have horsepower guided by computers. Who cares if we used to have
to stop to feed the horses? Now we stop for gas. How we dance now
is how we dance now, and some folks should just stop criticizing us
for liking the contemporary way, and trying to drag us back to the
past. I have a short section on this issue regarding the music
(not the dance)
-- Steve Shaw, Webmaster of www.salsanewyork.com
January 12, 2001
"I
am pleased to introduce to you, Ismael Otero, of the Caribbean
Soul Dancers from New Jersey, NY, who took the time to provide another
opinion. If you came to the Toronto Salsaweb Convention last April,
you would have had a chance to see him and his dance troupe in action!
They are a rowdy, but funky group of dancers who always have a great
time wherever they go and their energy keeps them going and going all
night long! He was at every convention I attended last year -- LA's
West Coast Salsa Congress in May and the Montreal Salsa Congress in
August. Edie the Salsa Freak named him the "Million Moves Man",
just because you can never predict what move he's going to do next --
they're never the same! And if you watch him dance, especially with
one of his sisters, Yesenia or .... -- you'll never forget them either!
Thank you again, Ismael for responding so quickly!" RoseKnows.
Dear
TOsalsa:
"If you would like to get a book that explains it the best I would
suggest the book called "MUSICA", it explains how salsa evolved
seperately in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and other places. Being that salsa
has been very popular lately everyone wants to take credit, but what
everyone needs to understand is that each country has its own version
and contribution to salsa. The Cuban son sounds like the Puerto Rican
seis. Being Puerto Rican myself I used to argue that salsa is from Puerto
Rico but my research leads me to believe that the evolution of salsa
has many contributors.
I used to believe in the saying, "The cubans invented it, Puerto Ricans
perfected it", because when Cuba was cut off from America, Puerto
Ricans kept the music alive. But you can imagine how much good music
was denied to Americans when Cubans couldn't bring their music.
Modern salsa ingredients are:
From Africa -- the drums and rituals!
From Cuba -- Son, Guaguanco, Guaracha, Rumba, Danzon and more!
From Puerto Rico -- Bomba, Plena, Seis, Aguinaldo and more!
From Columbia -- Cumbia and more!
There is more but these are, you could say, the main ingredients.
Modern Salsa is from New York, I could write all night but I want to
make it short. If you grow up with the music, you understand it more.
I used to listen to the song by Marc Anthony called "Preciosa"
which starts like a danza and turns into a cha cha and since it was
a song about Puerto Rico, it would put me in a spell. I'm sure that
songs about Cuba brings tears to Cuban's eyes and the same to Columbians
-- and I would wonder do non-latin people really feel what we feel?
My conclusion is YES they do, I have seen it with my own eyes and believe
that this music touches the soul no matter what race.
To me, the problem with some non-latin dancers is that they are too
technical, even some latin dancers too, but I feel that you have to
really listen to the music. Not just the count or technique, some dancers
can't follow or even know the proper techniques but they can move. I
try to combine the roots with technique and to me, that's what makes
a great all-round dancer.
If you're only concerned with turn patterns and footwork, your just
a salsa dancer. To be a salsero you need to know the roots: a little
African dance, a little pure Cuban dance, a little Puerto Rican dance
and a little Columbian dance, then the natural rhythm will take over.
In your question, you stated all the styles from different countries
-- what you have to understand is that people hear the music in different
ways and it makes you move certain ways and that's why there are many
ways to dance salsa. Africa, Cuba, Puerto Rico and Columbia are what
I call differently the same and when you understand the music it doesnt
matter what race you are you are a true salsero.
P.S. There are too many teachers not doing their jobs, remember some
people can show you to dance and others can teach you to dance. To teach
is to make you understand, and if you understand what you are doing,
it's more natural. I can go on and on. Let me know if you have more
questions." -- Ismael Otero
January
15, 2001
Rebuttal
-- Salsa came from everywhere and everyone? Does salsa come from China
too? True, Latin American culture is an amalgam of European, African
and Amerindian elements. No wonder its music is extraordinarily varied
and diverse. Even the word Salsa implies a mixture of different ingredients.
But Salsa remains basically Afro-Cuban music.
This
is not to deny the important contributions of New York Puerto Ricans
and other Latinos and Jazz, but without Cuban music, there would not
exist Salsa. On the other hand, if Cuban music had been cut off from
foreign influences, there would still exist something very similar to
Salsa in Cuba.
True,
mambo music has distant roots in French contredanse. But Cuban contradanza
took on African derived elements. Mambo music and how it is danced is
very different from European court dances. How do you dance Salsa French
contredanse style?
Secondly,
while there might exist some controversy about the origins of Salsa,
mambo and cha-cha-cha are undoubtedly and distinctly Cuban.
Thirdly,
real Mambo is NOT a social dance. It is not danced with male-female
partners. It orginated as a show dance dance during the gangster era
in Cuba, like how the Mambo kings danced at the Palladium in New York.
That's why you don't hear mambo played regularly in the Latin nightclubs
here.
Salsa
as a word for a type of music was made popular by New York's Fania's
records. It symbolized the new take on Afro-Cuban music that the Puerto
Rican New Yorkers played during the 1970's. They introduced new Jazz
harmonies in the orchestation. But most these musicians studied under
Cubans.
Cuban music has always influenced other countries' music rather than
being influenced by others. Cuban music has always been popular in Puerto
Rico. They even did their own versions of Cuban son.
I
looked in one book one reader suggested Musica: The Rhythm of Latin
America. There was only one
sentence written about Puerto Rican seis, while there were 5 pages entitled
"Salsa is Son". Recently there was a documentary about Salsa
called, "From Son to Salsa". The link between Cuban music
and Salsa is clear. Even the great musicians from the Fania era in the
1970's in New York, refer to "Salsa"
as Afro-Cuban music or jazz. And still many people refer to Salsa in
Cuba as Son. -- Jo. Kim
January
15, 2001
Cuban Dancing -- People say, "Who cares where Salsa came
from? Let's just have fun !!" That's my
point exactly. Cuban-style Salsa or Casino is more fun than North American
style dancing. Most people in Cuba don't take dance lessons. They learn
from childhood had to mark the clave. They don't count when they are
dancing. It is not technical and stiff like Latin Ballroom dancing.
And you don't have to learn the Backstreet Boys choreography of California-style
Salsa.
Cuban men can dance with anybody of any style. The spins and dips are
preplanned in Latin Ballroom dancing. It is difficult for men who have
learned Salsa dancing here to dance with Cuban women. Cuban women I
guess move too much or move their hips too much, it throws them off.
They don't care about steps. They just move. It is not as rigid as North
American Salsa dancing. It is inventive and playful. Cuban dancers invent
or improvise constantly. Basic steps can move around the floor. Cross
body leads can be made at angles rather than a straight line. It is
the flow and the angles the make Casino beautiful. There are spins in
Cuban dancing, but not like the circus act of Latin ballroom dancing.
Cubans can walk while dancing. They can dance with or off the beat.
But most of all, Cuban style dancing seems to appreciate the music more.
It follows the clave. Whereas California style dancing seems to have
gaps, pauses in the dancing, particularly after a series of spins. In
casino, spins can be fast like here or they can be made slower. One
spin can occupy two cycles of the clave instead of just one.
In
North America, Latin American dancing became professionalized. Failed
modern or jazz dancers
realized they could make more money teaching Salsa.There are no Modern
or Jazz nightclubs, are there? After the Cuban revolution, Cubans were
difficult to find in the United States, other than south Florida. From
England came Latin Ballroom dancing. Americans started taking dance
lessons. It is difficult to teach rhythm and the nuances of the clave
to people who didn't speak Spanish or were not used to listening to
this type of music. Impatient students only felt they were progressing,
only if they learned more spins and dips. Latin Ballroom competitions
became the goal of many American with disposable income and some time
on their hands. Couples danced farther apart, because they came from
countries were the people were colder, but also to facilitate the increased
number of spins. Latin dancing became more athletic. Dancesport. Most
of the participants in Latin Ballroom competitions are not Latin. And
the music is more like Latin elevator music. Ask any Brazilian if the
Samba in ballroom dancing resembles Brazilian Samba dancing. Does it
matter the rumba is not really a rumba, but a Cuban son? How do you
think people from Argentina feel when the Tango that everybody knows
around the world is from England?
Like
most Latin dances, Salsa started put in the poorer sectors of society.
Salsa is a street dance. You can dance it however you want. Many people
believe Ballroom and California style salsa is an improvement on Cuban
salsa dancing. Well, it's their right. When I see a guy wearing high
heels
(professional dancers' shoes), making waves with his arms and pointing
to the sky, I feel something has been lost.
I
saw the Bicardi Salsa Congress at Puerto Rico last year. There were
not many good dancers. Although I enjoyed the old Mambo dancers. Nobody
danced the real thing, except a group from Cali, Colombia. But it was
strange that no Cubans were invited. I guess they would be too good
or the band would be much better (there was no Gran Combo this year).
It would ruin everything. Although recently it has changed, the American
economic embargo has prevented Cuban music and artists from performing
in the United States. Without this political and economic barrier for
the past 40 years, Cuban music and dancing would have left a greater
imprint on North American music and dancing. In Europe (except England
and Russia) people are taught Cuban-style salsa. -- Jo. Kim
January
18, 2001
"I
am pleased to introduce to you, Robert Vidal, a New York on-2
dancer-instructor who visited us last summer. He can also dance on "1".
And for those of you who didn't know, I found out that many New Yorker
dancers originally started dancing on "1" before the on "2"
craze set in. He is presently teaching part-time in New York and was
a previous member of the Addie-tude Dance Company. Thank you Robert
for taking the time to respond and hopefully one day we'll meet up again!"
-- Rose Knows
Hello Rose,
I
would like to make a comment regarding what some of your readers said
about dancing salsa. First thing I should say is that I'm Puerto Rican
but I was born and raised in NYC. I have always grown up dancing at
family functions and parties. When I first learned to dance I was taught
that I should go side to side and kick. To most people who never took
a formal lessons for Mambo/Salsa (by the way there is no difference
between the two) -- this is dancing Salsa. What I actually came to realize
is that that style of dancing is a butchered form of Cumbia (a typically
Mexican and Columbian dance). When I first started to take lessons and
go dancing with people who were "really" dancing Salsa, I
started to move back and forth. Then, in my conversations with Eddie
Torres himself, as well as my Grandfather who used to hang out with
the original Palladium dancers in the Palladium, I began to realize
that Mambo is something that became popularized in clubs around the
40's and 50's. Eddie Torres told me that he danced that way all his
life. It was only later on that a teacher taught him timing. There is
no one person who can claim to be the founder of the dance. The dance
has undergone an evolution. Yes it probably did start as a mixture of
African dance AS WELL as Native American dance, but the fact remains
that it grew and evolved into its own entity.
As
for who and how it should be danced.... we'll who became salsa God???
There is no rule book and no official or sanctioned way it should be
danced. The dance is still evolving!!! Things will always look funny
or weird to people of different places. I tend to believe that salsa
will go the way of the trend happening now in NYC and in LA. As for
the ballroom thing... how can anyone say it looks like ballroom??? Have
you seen any of the Dance Sport Competitions? I don't think anyone in
clubs looks like that. Some times I goof on ballroom because it doesn't
even look like they are doing anything that resembles Mambo or Cha Cha.
On
a personal note, I think that the true nature of Mambo/Salsa is social.
I think it is that aspect that makes it so great. You need to be able
to bond with your partner, even if only for a five minute dance. Strangers
are no longer strangers for at least one song. As long as Mambo/Salsa
can do that then who cares if we all look a little different. My advice
to any dancer is to try to find the style that you like best and dance
that way. Who cares what everyone else thinks!!!
January
22, 2001 - Rebuttal from L. Brito
Myths about Cuban Dancing....
There is no difference between Cuban style dancing and Casino. It is
the same. Casino can be danced with two people. The fact is that most
people have never seen Cuban style dancing. It is NOT the old Toronto
cumbia style of kick and step back. I have never seen a Cuban dance
like this. A Cuban friend of mine wanted to teach Cuban style Salsa
three years ago here, but nobody wanted to learn, because there were
more interested in this side to side Toronto cumbia kick and step back
style they saw in the clubs.
Perhaps there are Cuban teachers here that teach this way, but this
is only to please popular tastes here or they have spent most of their
time outside Cuba. You know if the dancers are Cuban, if they come in
and push off each other with hands while they are dancing. No other
style does this or they copied it from Cubans.
Some "good" dancers here try to do this, come in and push
off each other, but it looks terrible, they look so uncomfortable doing
it. Somebody taught them wrong. They don't take steps with the clave
or move, they just do the normal "mambo" step, back and forth.
This pushing off hands seems to them a break before the next series
of spins, whereas Cubans dance most of the time like this.
To say that Cubans don't do the "mambo" step or cross body
leads is totally false. Where do you think these came from? The "good"
dancers here dance the "mambo" or "cumbia" steps
so tight. It is always back and forth or side to side, they don't travel
when they dance. Therefore they don't realize instead of "mambo"
style (left foot forward, right foot back), you can take steps in between
following the clave.
Cubans dance their basic step with such freedom and movement everywhere,
that after you realize that there is not much difference between the
"cumbia" and "mambo" steps. Of course Cubans do
cross body leads. How do you think they change partners in Casino? One
basic step is Cuban Salsa is the son montuno. The first step for the
men is right foot out and left foot back, instead of the old Toronto
cumbia style which is left foot back first.
Cubans dance facing each other instead of side to side. It looks easy
but it requires a greater understanding of the music and clave. For
some it looks slow, but in reality it is faster when you start to travel.
Cubans seem to stamp their feet on the ground, when the people here
kick. Men in Cuba often lead the women by the wrist. Nowadays in Cuba,
couples dance together then separated for long periods of time.
For a good example of this dancing is Gloria Estafan's video "No
me dejes de querer". You can see real Cubans dancing at the Habana
club downtown, although it is a terrible place for dancing. It is up
to the person, which style he or she prefers. But I think Cuban style
dancing here in Toronto has not represented fairly or authentically.
None of the Toronto Salsa websites mention Valdimir, the salsa instructor
at the Spanish Center. He is one of the most popular instructors around
and voted best instructor of year by Now Magazine. He is Cuban and dances
in a Cuban style. Shouldn't he be at least mentioned?
January
26, 2001
Origins of Salsa
With regards to the different ways Salsa is danced, I would like to
say that California style salsa - or what is known as L.A. style salsa
has been a breath of fresh air. People like the Vasquez brothers, Salsabor
y Cache, Josie Neglia have created what can be arguably called as the
most flashy and exciting of all the dance styles. To call LA style salsa
Latin Ballroom or mechanical is completely wrong and outrageous! The
people that say this are simply envious of LA style salseros - perhaps
they are jealous that they cannot dance like Francisco Vasquez.
My
whole point is that people who dance different styles should respect
each other.
The three main styles of LA, NY, and Cuban all have there distinct features
and characteristics that make them unique.
I've
heard people say that Cuban style is and OLD and outdated style. I've
heard others say that NY style on 2 is TOO slow. And also, I've heard
that Columbian style is not even a recognised style because they dance
cumbia to salsa.
I
think in the end, people will dance the style that they like best. I
personally love L.A. style salsa, I think the Vasquez brothers have
revolutionised salsa dancing - I guess its for a reason that Eddie Torres
crowned Johnny Vasquez the "Prince of Salsa" at the Puerto
Rico Congress 2000.
If
you prefer one style over the other, great, learn your craft well, have
fun, and respect others. -- Andres
January
30, 2001
Just a quick response to Jo-Kim.
You GREW UP listening to and dancing latin music. So of course you've
had years of practice to listen for the clave. But what about the rest
of the salseros who didn't? Should they be penalized for that?
Aren't you just proud that latin music and dancing is so popular? There
are latin clubs in everypart of the world. People from different backgrounds
are taking up latin dancing. How many other cultures do you know can
say that about their traditional dances?
So you have several years of "experience". What you may be
lacking in is what they may have plenty of; the courage to try something
new and have fun despite what others may think and say. Why critize
and belittle them? THEY ARE STILL LEARNING. And like YOU it may and
will probably take years for them to learn and be really comfortable
with the music. So instead of offering negativity, why not offer kindness
and patience? Because in the end, all that really matters is for everyone
to have fun and to enjoy themselves. -- Latina
January
30, 2001
Free video clips
Many people in Toronto have never seen Cuban style dancing. But I found
a company
selling dance videos directly from Cuba. The address is : www.salsaville.com.
Look under the Salsa a la Cubana section. You can watch free
video samples from these tapes. And then you can decide yourself.
But Cuban dancing is NOT the side to side rock back cumbia step of Toronto
a few years ago. Cubans do the "mambo" step", but they
move so much, they don't think of the steps. -- Jo Kim
February
6, 2001 - Rebuttal to Andres (Jan 26) from Jo Kim
You have only heard that Cuban salsa dancing is old? I am guessing
you have never seen it. You should look into that. It might be true
what you say and I guess I like style dancing. For me, the most beautiful,
elegant dancing to Latin music are the old people in Cuba who started
dancing in the 1950's and 60's. I saw an older couple dance in Cuba
without any spins, dips or flips and it was the most awe inspiring
dance experience of my life. The movements of the hips, dancing on
different beats, the flow of the bodies outshines any couple here.
It is important to note also at that Bicardi Puerto Rican Salsa Congress,
no Cubans were invited. Geez. I wonder why.
For me,
California Salsa is much choreography. If your partner has not taken
that particular class with that particular teacher, they can't follow
you. A Cuban guy can dance with anybody. The moves in California seem
preplanned and take way from the improvised spontaneous nature of
Salsa. But it is a better business though. With the invention of new
choreography, there are a unlimited number of classes, even advanced
dancers can take. California has no great Salsa music scene or tradition.
There are few Caribbean people and most of the Latinos are from Mexico.
Mexico has no great Salsa tradition.
February
6, 2001 - Rebuttal to Latina (Jan 30) from Jo Kim
I am not making fun of people who are learning to dance. Quite the opposite.
I am making fun of the people who think they know everthing about dancing
salsa and the industry that produced them. There are some people who
think North American Salsa dancing is more advanced than in Latin countries.
Because of economic and political reasons (i.e. American trade embargo),
Cuban music and dance has not had the influence it should have. Cuba
couldn't compete with the reach and power of New York - Puerto Rican
music industry. But like Cuban music is the root of Salsa, Cuban style
dancing is the root of all Latin dancing. You don't have to be Latin
or Cuban to dance well or teach, but you have to know the music, the
rhythms and the culture. It seems ludicrous for me to call you yourself
a "professional" Salsa teacher, without trying to learn Spanish or not
ever having visited Cuba? Don't you want to understand what you are
listening to? How can you call yourself salsero, if you have never seen
Cuban style dancing or you don't know any of the popular salsa groups
in Cuba Cuba now? Why don't more DJs here play more Cuban salsa music
like timba? It's actually better music for dancing. (To listen to popular
Cuban Salsa, go to : www.timba.com
Salsa is an americanized version of Cuban music. I don't mean in a bad
way. It's good music too. Salsa is a way for many latinos in the United
States and Canada to express their "Latin" heritage. They can communicate
with each other through Salsa because many of them have lost the power
to communicate through Spanish. Many of them come from or their parents
come from countries like Mexico, Chile, Ecuador that have not made any
significant contribution to the evolution of Salsa, but they use Salsa
to express stereotypical images of Latin passion to the gringos. I also
think that it is great that salsa has become popular throughout the
world. But what Canadian people don't realize is that Salsa is not the
popular music of many Latin contries and even in Cuba and Colombia,
Salsa is being replaced by rap and rock en espanol. If you want to hear
what real young Latin people are listening to, go to Momentos, across
the street from Babaluu.
February 12, 2001 - Rebuttal to Jo Kim by
Daniel
In response to Jo kim's analysis of salsa dancing and salsa music, I
would to address some issues.
First
off, I disagree that salsa music is Cuban music. It has its roots
in the Cuban son but it also has incorporated other elements and genres
of music. Salsa is from New York, Salsa is product of Latinos living
in the U.S. As Willie Colon says, "it is an urban Pan-American
movement" & "an ever evolving and developing concept."
Puerto
Ricans were primarily involved, but there were also people of Venezuelan,
Colombian, Panamanian, and even Jewish American background. Cubans
also played a role.
I would
recommend that everyone read the book "Salsiology" by Vernon
Boggs. One will find out via the historical analysis that most Cuban
musicians (in the U.S.) at the time were not interested in continuing
to play the son. They were primarily interested in playing other genres
such as Charanga. It is documented that they viewed what became known
as Salsa as "music of the negro", "music of the lower
classes" and thus wanted nothing to do with.
My question
is if Salsa is Cuban music, why were the Cubans the least of all the
musicians to play it? Why was not Miami, instead of NY, the hotbed
for this music? Machito once said "If it weren't for the Puerto
Ricans, I would not be there". Non-Cuban latinos took the essence
of the Cuban son and transformed it, took it to a new level, and made
it into what is today.
To say
that Salsa music is really Cuban music, is to say that really Cuban
music is African and European music. That really, the Cubans have
stolen these traditions, sing in spanish, and have given them new
names such as son, mambo, danzon. This argument sounds absurd right?
It does, it is as nonsensical as the claim that Salsa is Cuban music.
Jo Kim
talks about Timba, this is a style of music that can be called Cuban.
But even in Timba they incorporate non-Cuban influences such as hip-hop/rap,
American rock, etc. Going by Jo Kim's logic, shall we now all say
that Timba has is really North American music in the guise of a particular
style of Cuban music? Irakere, Los Van Van, Banda NG are exceptionally
talented musicians who play and incorporate many styles - yet no one
would call their music "non-Cuban".
With
regards to salsa dancing. Jo Kim's comments seem to border on absurd
nationalism. No one is born a dancer, know one is born with the cross-body
lead in their genes. Everyone has to learn some way or another. Everyone
does do psuedo-choreography when learning how to dance, you would
be able to dance if you didn't practice.
Salsa
music and dancing did not exist in 1950s Cuba.
No matter
what style you dance, every move and combination is not a result of
instant spontaniety. Most moves are learned and practiced beforehand.
It is only when you have "mastered" these moves that they
then become "spontaneous" expressions of the dance. Cubans
do this as well as everybody else who dances salsa, no matter what
nationality you are.
Mexico
has no salsa tradition? Yeah you are right, neither does Cuba. New
York has the salsa tradition.
I wasn't
aware that because one is Mexican it automatically makes you not a
good salsa dancer. I wonder what Salsa Brava, Los Rumberos, Salsabor
y Cache would say about this.
Using
Jo Kim's line or argument no Cuban could ever be a great Tango dancer,
or no Puerto Rican could ever really dance Bachata or merengue. It
really all comes down to birthplace and bloodlines, funny, I thought
it was about dancing.
Going
by the logic of Jo Kim, the only real and good dancers are Caribeans
of Cuban descent who danced in the 1950s - specifically, "pure"
Cubans, not Cubans living in U.S. b/c they apparently have lost their
heritage just like every other latino. By the way, Salsa Lover's Dance
Studio gave a show at the Salsa Congress in Puerto Rico (its director,
Rene, is of Cuban descent).
Thus,
Miami-style Casino does not count, or any other North Anerican based
Cuban style for that matter according to the line of logic of Jo Kim.
I respect
and enjoy all the salsa styles. LA, NY, and Cuban. Latin Ballroom
is a whole different ballgame that really has nothing to do with dancing
you do at the nightclubs. LA style salsa is a wonderful addition to
the salsa cannon. It is a driving force behind the resurgence of the
popularity of salsa dancing.
Daniel
February
14, 2001 - Note to Jo Kim from Sonia
I'm wondering if Jo Kim teaches salsa dance or musical theory. I would
certainly be interested in attending any classes offered by Jo Kim since
the rest of us don't have a clue about "real salsa" or "real
cuban music".
It would
also appear that Jo Kim is a sociologist who has been able to define
the essence of being a "real young latin." The rest of us
confused latinos who head out on a Saturday night for an evening of
leisure dancing, we should stop trying to be "passionate latinos"
for the mere sake of impressing our non-latino friends (please stop
using the "g" word to refer to non-latinos, it is derogatory).
But, who am I to comment? I figure that as an Ecuatoriana who grew
up in T.O. I'm probably too busy perpetuating latino stereotypes than
getting in touch with my real latin heritage. Jo Kim get a grip. A
lot of us latinos who go out to dance salsa, do so for the enjoyment
of dancing. The majority of people who I've seen dance at clubs don't
look like "professionals" nor do they look like they are
rehearsing choreography learned at a studio.
Please
don't generalize about the salseros who head out to the T.O. clubs.
Some of us are more fluent in Spanish than some of the people living
in latin america; some of us not only have visited our country of
origin but also have travelled through other parts of latin america;
some of us have also pursued a higher education in Spanish literature,
latin american studies etc.; some of us enjoy reading the great authors
of latin america... So the next time you see a young latina dacing
at some club, don't assume that you know everything about her and
that she knows nothing about herself or her culture.
Sincerely,
a very proud Ecuatoriana dancer
March
1, 2001 - Jo Kim's Rebuttal to Andres
Everytime
someone recommends that I read a book about the "real" origins
of Salsa, I find evidence to support my argument. People should read
all of the book instead of reading selectively. The facts and quotes
that Andres uses are often taken out of context and without historical
context.
When Wille Colon talks about Salsa as a Pan-Latin American movement,
he is talking about its popularity and its ability to represent Latin
culture. What would be Mexico's and Argentina's (the largest Latin
American countries) contribution to salsa music? He doesn't even consider
it music, but a concept (?). Machito says Thank God for the Puerto
Ricans. So what? Did he say it wasn't Cuban music anymore? All that
means is that he liked the developments that were happening in New
York. I have NEVER said the developments in Latin music in New York
were not important or influential or that the musicians were not exceptionally
talented. New York Salsa sounded different and new from previous Latin
music. But was it a totally different type of music? NO. It is a variation
or movement under the general heading of Afro-Cuban music. Bebop revolutionized
Jazz. But Bebop is still Jazz. The inventions of using nets, ice skating
and sticks to score goals came from other countries, nobody disputes
ice hockey is Canadian. European ice hockey is different and newer,
but it is still a Canadian game. True, the drums in Latin Music come
from Africa, but what indigenous African music sounds like Salsa or
the precursors to Salsa? Where can you find these precursors or intermediary
music? Why you find them in Cuba, in Rumba (the real one, not the
ballroom one), guaguanco, yambu and columbia. Nothing ever comes from
nothing. Where can you find the precursors to New York sound Salsa?
In Cuba, also. Tito Rodriguez and Tito Puente played mambos and cha-cha-chas.
They and many other Puerto Rican musicians never called their music
Salsa and never denied the importance of Cuban music in their own
music. Mambo and Cha-Cha-Cha are undoubtedly Cuban. What is the musical
template or rhythm for all Salsa? It is the Cuban clave in son-montuno.
TOsalsa mentions salsa songs by Grupo Gale which have the word son-montuno
in their titles. That is because Cuban music, son-montuno and Salsa
are basically the same. Andres mentions that Salsa didn't exist in
1950's Cuba, maybe the name didn't exist, but the music sure did exist.
There existed son, cha-cha-cha and mambo. You don't dance to the jazz
harmonies introduced by New York Puerto Ricans, you dance to the clave
in a son-montuno. This type of music has had its longest history,
greatest germination and variety, newest innovations in CUBA.
It's
quite simple. I will use an example many people know: the Buena Vista
Social Club's remake of Benny More classic "Que bueno baila Usted".
This song was first recorded before the "invention" of Salsa.
But to my ears and to most people ears, the difference between this
song and New York Salsa is very marginal. A "modern Salsa"
(it sounds the same to me) version of this song plays at Babalu's
often. Sergio George, a leading producer in New York salsa, incoporated
Cuban songo and timba into hits by DLG, Marc Anthony, etc. Juliana
by DLG is actually a Cuban son. Andres seem to suggest Cubans rejected
Salsa because it was considered black music. But anyone who has listened
to Cuban music, knows it is the more African influenced, more African
syncopated Salsa. More blacks in Cuba make up popular Salsa groups
than Puerto Rico, being less bound to commercial tastes than New York
and Puerto Rico. Racism exists in every country. But after the Cuban
Revolution, more opportunities exist for musicians of African descent
than any other Latin country. This answers
Andres' other question about why Miami wasn't the birthplace of Salsa.
Most of the immigrants to Miami of Cuba descent were (not now) doctors,
lawyers, office workers and business managers and overwhelmingly white.
There were some Cuban musicians, but most of them went to New York
to influence and teach the New York Puerto Ricans. Many musicans (many
black) stayed in Cuba because of the low status of their profession,
they couldn't afford to leave Cuba. Why does Miami have to be a center
of Salsa, when you already have Cuba.
Fania
records invented and marketed the name Salsa. It was the first Latin
music were production values were of paramount importance. It had
enough resources and money to promote itself throughout the world.
They promoted themselves as the inventors of this kind of music. Puerto
Rican nationalists used salsa to create a cultural identity. Puerto
Rico has always had an identity problem because the American presence
is so strong there. Cuba record companies couldn't compete with Fania
then, and they can't compete with Sony now. Fania released a movie
"Our Latin Thing" (Nuestra Cosa) which made the suggestion
that Salsa came directly from Africa to New York, skipping Cuba entirely.
The public was not made aware that much of material used by Fania
artists were composed by Cubans. Composers were written as Derechos
Reservados (Reserved Rights). Cubans were never recognized and compensated
because of the American economic embargo.
I have
never heard of those Salsa groups from Mexico. Are they chicanos or
Mexicans? They must not be very popular. I don't know any Mexicans
who have heard of them and I know a lot. They can't name one Salsa
group from Mexico. And Rene from Salsa Lovers' studio, for me he is
a ballroom dancer.
March
6, 2001 - Rebuttal to Jo Kim from Andres
First
I would like to address the issue with the dance groups from L.A.
Los Rumberos, Salsa Brava, Salsabor y Cache are not from Mexico, they
are from L.A.
It is
interersting to note that Jo Kim criticises L.A. style salsa and yet
for some reason has never heard of the actual people who are the forerunners
and pioneers of the dance style. It is ironic for someone who appears
to know alot about salsa music and salsa dance styles, and who has
put down L.A. style salsa, has never heard of the Vasquez brothers.
Watch "Dance with Me", or any of the Salsa Congress videos.
See Jennifer Lopez's video "Waiting for Tonight", or try
Marc Anthony's video "I need to Know". The Vasquez brothers
have appeared in so many shows and videos that I have lost track.
Their dance companies are in immense demand all over the world. I
think maybe you should make a trip to L.A. and see for yourself.
L.A.
style has revolutionised salsa dancing. This does not mean that NY
or Cuban are less valid or less attractive. I enjoy and appreciate
all the styles. In fact I am so happy there are other styles, heaven
help us if we all had to dance the same way and not deviate from a
proposed standard. I hope other styles develop, I welcome them all.
I oppose
someone taking a narrow interpretation of a dance style and try to
force it down other peoples throat (the old "my way or the highway"
routine). So what if you prefer one style over the other? Who are
you to say what is better and what is not? People will cling to whatever
style they like best. I think the key is that you keep an open mind
to other styles and learn from it. If Jo Kim is upset over the lack
of Cubans or the Cuban style in the Congress, then all I have to say
is start your own group of Cuban style and go perform. There is nothing
stopping you. The Salsa Congress does not barr Cuban style dancers.
By the
way, Salsa Lover's Dance Studio did a great job at the Congress. It
was great to have them perform there. Ballroom? Maybe to Jo Kim. For
the rest, it was Cuban style at its finest.
It seems
that alot of the close minded people who have bashed and continue
to bash L.A. style salsa appear to be envious of its surging popularity.
It is primarily L.A. salseros who are appearing and continue to be
cast in movies, music videos etc.
When
I speak of L.A. salsa, I am not speaking of bands. I am referring
to the dance style. L.A. has its salsa bands and so does every other
city in North America.
I don't
understand Jo Kim's reference to Mexico, Argentina in the arguments
she makes. Salsa music and salsa dancing is a product of the Latino
presence in North America.
I am
not disagreeing about the roots of salsa. Yes, its origins are in
the son. I don't anyone is denying that. But I think it is important
to emphasise the word "roots" and "origins". Salsa
as we know it is from New York.
Salsa
is and will always be a music that represents and reflects Latino
life in North America. Now Salsa has become so internationalised that
it has acquired a world-wide mass appeal.
Salsa
took the Cuban son, transformed it, reinterpreted it, added bomba,
plena, jazz, cumbia.
If you
take 1970s Nuyorican salsa and contrast that with 1950s Cuban music,
sure there are similarities (clave, etc.), but overall they are distinct
sounds. Got to a nightclub in NY or LA, and play some old 1950s Cuban
music, you will most likely get a different response.
Cuba
has son, timba, mozambique, mambo, cha-cha. Latin North America (NY,
Miami, LA) has salsa. Cuba has all of its musical genres that fall
under the rubric of "Cuban music". Its roots and origins
are African, yet you would be crazy to make the argument that Mambo,
son, is really "African music" - that Cubans have stolen
the African rhythms.
Or can
one imagine making the argument that the Tango is not really Argentinian
b/c really its rhythms are from Western Europe and so how dare Argentinians
claim that this dance and music is theirs!
The same
goes for Brazilian music, they took and brought African, Native American,
and European sounds, transformed them, reinterpreted them and thus
created a plethora of musical genres. Can you imagine saying that
Samba is not Brazilian music?
Cuba
has made immense contributions to Latin music, no one is denying that.
Cuba has and will always be seen as the cradle of great music.
Salsa
like every other genre of music has its birthplace, Tango - Argentina,
Cumbia - Columbia, Samba - Brazil. Salsa was born in New York, Latin
NY. Salsa will always represent the Latino experience in North America.
It has created a common bond for all Latino nationalities living in
North America.
Cheers,
Andres
March
18, 2001 - Jo Kim's Rebuttal to Andres
Cecilia Cruz, the Queen of New York Salsa states, "Salsa is Cuban
music with another name. It's mambo, chachacha, rumba, son, all the
Cuban rhythms under one name,
Sue Steward,
author of Musica and the Salsa section of the World Music: The
Rough Guide. pg. 494.
No one,
no matter how anti-communist their stance would deny that Salsa is
essentially Cuban music.
Vernon
W. Boggs
Salsiology: Afro-CUBAN music and the
Evolution of Salsa in New York.
pg. 104. Despite all the changes that the music underwent, it is still
fundamentally Cuban popular music often called Salsa.
It is important to note Boggs dislikes the term Salsa, prefering to
it, Afro-Cuban jazz or popular Cuban music.
Andres
writes "Can you imagine saying Samba is not Brazilian or that
Tango is not Argentinian?". Well, for me that is like saying
Salsa is not Cuban music. Every Cuban and Latin American person living
in Latin America knows that Salsa is basically Cuban music. What do
you call the music played by Los Van Van, Irakere, Abalberto y su
Son, etc.? Most of these bands developed in Cuba without hearing New
York Salsa for many years because of the economic embargo.
You can call your music Salsa, and I'll call mine Son, by really it
is the same music. Salsa is just name that caught on. It is more commercial
name than Afro-Cuban music. Salsa is an Americanized version of Cuban.
Latinos in the United States of all countries seem to accept Salsa
as their own, even though Salsa has nothing to do the reality back
home. Salsa is not popular in Mexico. But Mexican-Americans or Chicanos
accept Salsa as part of their heritage even to point they try to pretend
they invented it. I have never heard of the Mexican-American Salsaoriginal
cumbia, but it is still cumbia.
People in Mexico and Peru, dance cumbia differently than the real
cumbia. Colombian cumbia is not the kick and step back that people
that think here.
Ballroom dancing flavored peoples' perception of Latin dancing. Most
think Brazilian samba is the samba in Ballroom competitions. Tango
from Argentina is not good enough to be called just Tango. The word
Tango is used for Ballroom Tango, while the authentic one is called
Argentine Tango.
Rumba is not even a Rumba, it is actually a Cuban son. In Los Angeles,
the primary influences in their style of Salsa is West Coast Swing
and Ballroom dancing. I respect New York Salsa because it has a history
and culture. But L.A.? That is Hollywood. When Black people started
dancing Lindy Hop during the Swing era in Jazz, the whites imitated
them, but in a style more culturally acceptable, less "savage".
There are more spins, dips and spins in California style salsa, but
the dancers are often rhythmically challenged.
In Montreal and Europe, where people are less willing to accept Americanized
version of things, Cuban style salsa dancing is more popular. You
can this music whatever you want but in the end it is still Cuban.
April
4, 2001 - To Jo Kim/Andres from a Latin DJ in Jamaica!
What's All The Arguing About? (Jo Kim/Andres)
First of all, let me say that I am not a Latino - so in your minds,
that may not qualify my response! However, let me give it anyway!
I am
a Latin Dj from a little Caribbean Island called Jamaica.. and whenI
logged on to Tosalsa, I couldn't believe that the same crap that's
being argued about in Jamaica, was going on anywhere else in the world!
Despite
all the facts and History lessons offered, the writer's keep straying
from the point... the questions are concerning the "dance styles"
and not the music! No-one disputes the many and varied origins of
Salsa music. Each region made it's own input, and the blending of
sounds has many facets and roots (I will not endeavour to repeat them).
So lets
talk about the dancing, and I'll give you an idea of where my mindset
comes from! Bye the way, salsa dancing is really bigf in Jamaica!
The force behind the movement is a group called Csas (Caribbean South
American Sound), whose dance instructor Keith-Anthony Cousins was
trained in Toronto. That doesn't follow that all the dancing is TO
style - absolutely not! In Jamaica, we have a wide mix of Latinos;
Cubans, Puerto Ricans and Columbians and brothers and sisters from
the Dominican Republic, who are in the Island for work, school, vacation
etc., on a continual basis!
As a
result, the main salsa club in Kingston (the Jonkanoo Lounge, Hilton
Hotel), always has people from different backgrounds, with their own
music requests and own style of dancing! As a Dj and a salsero myself,
this has taught me one important lesson.... your backgroung determines
"how" you HEAR the music; and "what" you HEAR
determines how you DANCE!
Once
while enjoying a night at the club, a professional Cuban dance instructor
at the Jamaican School of Dance, only in Jamaica for a few years,
but learned in dance techniques from ballet to the jive (but he only
dances authentically Cuban at the club), taught me an inportant lesson:
"People talk about salsa dancing, and they are incorrect! Salsa
is the music - mixed with all different types of sounds, instruments
and nuances, but not everyone can hear, understand or formulate them
all into a rhythm. They way that you dance to salsa is basically your
own interpretation of a three-step beat... but salsa dancing has no
set pattern!"
Before
you smirk... think about it! I have seen the dance instuctor teach
salsa dancing to Russians - no offence, but most Russians have no
rhythm, no concept of timing, no in-born ability to "catch the
beat". But she could count "1-2-3, & 1-2-3.." -
thus she learned to enjoy dancing to a music that captivated her mind,
a music that made her want to float... it was the only way that she
could enjoy dancing to salsa!
Far be
it from anyone to take it away from her! Point is, we all do not have
the background that makes us hear all the nuances of the music, and
no-one can "really" dance tha Casino like a Cuban, but so
what? Should Jamaicans insist that no-one else in the world should
dance to reggae? No-one else moves like us - and even though it may
be English... can you repeat the words, let alone understand them
the way we do? Does that give us a right to criticise... no, instead,
we show the world what we know, then stand back and watch in amazement,
as the world puts their own interpretaion onto it - we are just glad
that reggae is being played in every corner of the globe! Enough said!
In Jamaica,
TO-style dancing is taught, and is very popular, because of the spins
and dips! However, there is nothing routine about it - because after
the classes are over, everything that happens is new and invented,
with influences taken from all different dance styles! As a male,
I dance well, and can dance with any woman, no matter where she is
from! The Cuban women love to dance with me - even though I don't
do the Cuban style... but I am influenced by it! But that is not the
same of all dancers - some of us have more rhythm than others, but
that doesn't make us better people or more privaleged - it gives us
more responsibility, to keep teaching others, and to keep the salsa
fire lit, because more eyes are on us than anyone else!!
One more
thing... I entered an amateur dance competition with my dance partner,
at a club some months ago! At the time, my partner only knew basic
To-style dancing, but we look very graceful together (being both tall),
and we had been taught a few spins and dips. The Latin event and competition
was for fun, but was put on by Cubans who wanted to show us Jaamicans
"the real thing". They were in charge of the night, Cuban
food, a Cuban band, Cuban friends and music... and we danced against
five other couples, mainly Cubans, and were judged by an audience
almost entirely made up of Cubans: guess who won the competition?
We did!
Many of the Cuban patrons admitted that, even though they did not
like how we danced, but the ease and smoothness of our "unplanned"
routine, how much we obviously enjoyed dancing together, and our knowledge
of the music (even though they chose the music at the spur of the
moment - something from Los Van Van, I think it was "Temba Tumba
Timba"), we danced to every sound and nuance, and when the other
couples walked off the floor, we ended to the last beat of the song
in a simple but elegant dip... made them give us the edge over their
Cuban brothers!
Hm,,
that's something, eh? Rose - keep up the good work... more time
Dj Richie
April
4, 2001 - Support for Jo Kim from Lulita
I am a Cuban woman. So, you probably know where I think Salsa is from
or which style of Salsa dancing I think is the best. I think the problem
is that people don't know the difference between social dancing and
show dancing.
The same
thing happened with Tango in Los Angeles. Americans saw the show "Forever
Tango" and they thought that was they way Tango was danced. So, all
of them rushed to learn from teachers who were from Argentina (even
though nobody heard of them in Argentina). They learned all the acrobatic
flips, turns all the while thinking that this is real Tango.
People
who don't know all about Salsa or who had never seen Salsa before,
are too easily impressed with quick turns, dips and flips. They learn
Salsa because they want to show off to their friends these "hot tricks".
It becomes a skill rather enjoying the music. They never learn the
history of the music and the clave. If you tell them to do the basic
step in a different way or walk with the basic step, they can't do
it, because they are so used to dancing in one way and so rigidly.
Nobody in the dance floor will stay in the way of his spins and dips.
They do the spins as fast as they can, even though it has nothing
to do with the music. Often he or she practices without music. Cuban
dancing may not look as showy as other types of Salsa dancing. Maybe
that's why it is not popular with beginners. But Cuban dancing is
much more difficult then it looks. It is more demanding rhythmically...
Lulita
May
3, 2001 - Additional Comments from Lulita re Cuban Dancing
The Jamican DJ beat some Cubans in a dance competition. What does
that prove?
As a Latin DJ, he probably dances Salsa on a regular basis. Of course,
he is going to dance better than some Cuban tourists. Not everybody
in Cuba dances Salsa well. As human beings, every person from any
race or culture has the equal ability or talent to anything as well
as anybody else. Most Cubans dance Salsa better than let's say Americans.
This is because Salsa is more popular in Cuba than the States and
everybody grows up with Salsa in Cuba.
Of course,
not every Cuban dances better than Canadians or Americans. We are
talking
about different styles not individual people. I am tired of people
comparing professional dance instructors in Canada or the U.S. to
ordinary Cubans. You have to compare dance professionals with dance
professionals. Instead, they always pick some guy off the street in
Cuba as an example of Cuban dancing or some guy from Cuba who is here
for political or economic reasons who wants to make some money on
the side. None of these people have made a name for themselves in
Cuba and nobody has heard of them.
The Jamican Latin DJ says it is about dancing not music. Of course,
it is about the music. And that's why Cuban style dancing is better,
because it follows the music.
And what is Toronto style Salsa? People have gone crazy with these
styles. Seattle style, Detroit style, Israeli style, filipino style.
I would go even further than Jo Kim. I think all Salsa styles are
variations from Cuban style Salsa. I took some classes in New York
style salsa, I realized Cuban and New York styles are virtually the
same. Many
Cubans were living in New York and many of them influenced New York
Salsa dancing. New York Salsa is Cuban dancing with influences from
Disco and Latin hustle. Dancing on 2 is for Americans who can't hear
the music. Lulita, la cubanita
May
25, 2001 - Jo Kim Supporter from Mazacote
Jo Kim deserves a round of applause. In my opinion, he is right on.
I'm not Cuban. I'm young and still learning; however, I've seen what
he's talking about when he speaks of traditional Cuban dancing style.
Let's talk about the dancers who danced with Chapottin and Aragon.
These guys are amazing and can dance to any music thrown at them,
as much as they may be disgusted with the direction the music has
gone.
When
dancing cha cha cha, son, guaracha, rumba...etc., they actually listen
to the music. They pause when the music pauses, change from son to
cha cha cha, when the music builds they become more excited; it's
smooth and beautiful to watch. It seems that alot of Salseros aren't
even listening: they don't change their styles when the music changes
and alot of the time they don't even end when the song ends. In the
older music, like the Danzon, the musicians would play with the dancers;
make different changes. Sure you could still improvise alot, but the
basic rhythms, breaks, end, etc have to be followed.
June
2, 2001
For God's sake, it's DANCING!!!! The main difference is that
Toronto dancer's have become obsessed with choreography and a particular
ballroom-style technique; where most Cubanos and Latinos dance for
the joy of it.!!! -- Writer Unknown
Part 1
- January to June, 2001
Part 2 - July
to December, 2001
Part
3 - January to December 2002
Part 4 - January 2003
Part
5 - February to August, 2003
Part 6 - September, 2003 to Present
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