October
6, 2003
Dancers
and Salsa Music
We will post constructive feedback
from our readers.
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Dancers
and Salsa Music |
| Our Reader asked... | |
| Our Feedback... | July 28, 2003 - James' response |
| July 29, 2003 - Chincub's response | |
| August 4, 2003 - Pat's response | |
| August 4, 2003 - Alex's response | |
| August 6, 2003 - Francisco's response | |
| August 8, 2003 - Rene's response | |
| August 12, 2003 - Still Learning's response | |
| August 13, 2003 - Ivan's response to Francisco | |
| August 21, 2003 - Alex's response to Ivan | |
| September 24, 2003 - Michael's response | |
New! |
October 6, 2003 - El Chinito Veloz's response |
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July 24, 2003 -- Dancers and Salsa music (new discussion topic) I have noticed over the years that a majority of salsa dancers do not know or seem to care about the musicians behind the music. It seems that for alot of dancers they place learning new dance moves first and foremost and forget about ever developing an interest in the music itself. I know many great dancers who have danced to numerous songs by Oscar Deleon but are not even able to recognize who he is. When you ask them about the artist their reply is "who is that?" or "I don't know". Yet all of them can point out a dancer/instructor in a crowed dancefloor. I read a review of the 2003 LA congress where the person was amazed at the fact that next to nobody went to greet the many musicians that were there: Bobby Cruz & Richie Ray, Ray Barretto and Adalberto Santiago. These guys are legends!! They were playing salsa music when all of us were either non-existant or in diapers. They get ignored and dancers like Frankie Martinez (who by the way I think is an AMAZING dancer!! He is one of my favorites) get mobbed. I enjoy both the dance and the music. I love learning about the many artists and musicians in Salsa, it really gives you an immense foundation of knowledge. It also gives you more of an edge in your dancing. The more you know about a Salsa musician the more you appreciate their songs when they are played in the clubs. For example, I personally go CRAZY when I hear old Willie Colon and Hector Lavoe songs. One of the reasons for this is because I know alot of the history behind the songs and the artists. Alot of salsa dancers know only about Sonora Carruseles or DLG. People are amazed at the some of the songs of Sonora Carruseles but do not know that alot of their songs our covers of 1970s songs. I can tell right away when a dancer is purely a dancer and not an aficionado of salsa music by the mere fact that they do not dance to the music. One main reason for this is that they do not listen to the music outside of the club. They don't bother to sit down and truly listen to the music and attempt to understand the polyrhythmic beats. The only time they hear salsa music is when they go to the clubs or practice on a routine. In the many years of dancing salsa I have met only a small group of individuals who have some idea of salsa musicians and salsa history. It is very rare to meet someone like that. I feel that is important for all dancers to immerse themselves in the culture and its history. What is the point of dancing to something when you have no idea about what the song is and who is singing it. How ridiculous would I look if I decided to become a hip-hop dancer but I did not know any of the artists or the history of the culture? How absurd would it be if I performed to a Tupac song and then later on someone came to me and said, "Wow! Your performance was amazing! How long have you been a fan of Tupac's music?" and I reply with "Tupac? Who is that?" Or better yet, what if I said that I don't really care about the music or the artists, that I don't care about learning the history hip-hop culture, all I care about is dancing and becoming a hip-hop dance instructor. Saul |
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The Feedback.... July 28, 2003 -- Dancers and music Yeah, I completely agree with you on that. I think the main reason is that there are a lot of dancers who get into the dance before the music as it is visually powerful. Many people take some workshops and order videos form the internet and have an absolute obssesion with learning new "tricks" and then eventually performing. Generally speaking I think these people tend be post "Dance with me" salseros. After that movie came out I think there were many new converts. As you know that was the era for Carouselles and therefore many people tend to think they are the end all and be all of salsa. I think it is similar to hip hop but in the opposite way. In hip hop, the dance(breakin')was forgotten and the musicians are now the popular ones whereas in Salsa the dancers seem to be the stars. This is largely in part due to the power of the congresses and workshop which really focus on the teachers, performances and "show dancing". Maybe the congresses could try to include music history workshops or something. I am sure there would be some interest in that. Have some of the legendary singers and musicians share the experiences and stories and even offer workshops on percussion. We all know that knowing the rhtyhm makes better dancers. -- James July 29, 2003 -- Saul's e-mail about dancers and music Saul, you are 100% right. Of course at some level most people like the music. But many people learn to impress friends or pick up girls. Dancing is about the music not the tricks and flips. When Latin American people go to a club, they will only dance if the song is good. Whereas some people here will dance salsa to Ricky Martin. Or they will dance cha cha cha when the song says "My son, my son, (mi son, mi son !!)". Then of course, these are the same people who get bored of salsa and leave it. A lot of has to do with the fact that they can't understand Spanish. It is more difficult to relate to the songs if you can't understand a word they are saying. Tae Kwon Do students have to learn a little Korean. People who are advanced Caporiera students must learn Portugese. I think to really call yourself a salsero you must attempt to learn a little Spanish. It is afterall is part of the culture of the music. People who do not anything about salsa dancing are too easily impressed with spins and tricks. And that's the reason why many people learn salsa dancing. When you watch a great dancer, you know just from the basic step that he is a great dancer. Most great dancers I know don't do many spins. But people here don't enjoy the music, but dance to impress other people. I was in Babalu on a Saturday night and I spotted a Latin ballroom
couple who placed 3th or 4th in the Berlin Salsa contest. They were
dancing up ballroom storm with dips, flips and kicks. A crowd had
gathered around (believe me, it pretty easy to impress the Saturday
night crowds at Babalu's). Some of the people were really impressed.
Others like myself had to stand and watch because this couple was
taking up so much room with their kicks and flips. Nobody could dance
within 20 feet of them unless you wanted to stepped on (have you ever
been stepped on by a male ballroom dancer with their high heeled ballroom August 4, 2003 -- Salsa Music and Salsa Dancers By strange coincidence, we just posted an article on this very subject .. http://www.salsamafia.com/Bitches_Music.html . where I'm afraid, I come down on the other side of the argument: basically, I don't really care who's playing; if the song's danceable, I like it, otherwise I don't. Perhaps I should be ashamed, but truth is, I don't really care much beyond that .. Mind you, I also don't buy into the worship-from-afar, stand-around-jamming-up-the-dance-floor-gawping-at-da-Maf-doing-their-thing thing either. I'd rather dance .. Pat, Salsamafia.com August 4, 2003 -- Saul's e-mail about dancers and the music Saul, You are so right. Most salsa dancers here are more interested in trying the new moves they learned in their classes or trying to teach what they think they know to some unsuspecting women who are beginners. It is about the music !! In Los Angeles, it is about how many spins, dips and tricks you know, not about the music. How else can you explain the English salsa versions of Lady and Carelesss Whisper. How can any dancer get inspired by that? People should learn some Spanish and learn more about the music and culture. The greatest dancers are the old timers like in places like Cuba or New York. You never see them doing so many tricks, dips or flips. Juan Carlos (the Cuban guy at Orale every Saturday) for me here is best dancer in Toronto. He hardly does any spins. And for some Canadians who don't know dancing he is not as good as other dancers who show off with dips, flips and hard spins. But believe me it is very hard to dance like he does. Cuban dancing looks easy but even hardcore seasoned salsa professional cannot do the most basic steps in casino. In Toronto, is about who knows the best tricks, shines and flips. Their way of interpreting the music is to do dips during a pause in the music. What they call "accenting" the music. In Cuba, it is about interpreting the music. Competitions about dancing are based who can "hear" the music better and dance accordingly. That's why, many Cuban musicians and dancers find Salsa boring. As dance music, timba has more depth and more different things to dance to than normal salsa songs. For me, salsa is more for listening and timba is more for dancing. -- Alex August 6, 2003 -- Dancers and Salsa Music (answer to Saul) OK Saul, please take a deep breath and count with me :10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... Great. Now please let me make a comparison we can all understand. Most people in this country are able to use a computer either to work, study or amuse themselves. Yet, only a tiny minority (made up of computer scientists and computer engineers)would be able to explain to you how a computer actually works or how to make one. I doubt most of them would be able to tell you much about computer history, or name of the top of their heads the names and nationalities of the top ten computer designers in history. I think now you see where I am going. Salsa is an amazing thing. It is rich in history, tradition, mythology and best of all it is alive! You , me and every salsa aficionado (dancer, teacher, musician, choreographer or run of the mill salsa freak)out there are every day contributing to the growth of salsa lore. Yet if we limit the joy of salsa only to those that have an intimate knowledge of its roots, its legends and the intricacies of its musical composition then we are destroying the very purpose of salsa music and dance which is to express our own latin experience. It does not matter if my latin experience was to grow up cutting sugar cane for Fidel in Cuba or to visit my seven aunts and forty-two Puertorican cousins in the Bronx or listening to the Sonora Carruseles re-make of Ave Maria Lola while I played imaginary bongos on the steering wheel of my car in a trafic jam outside Etobicoke. Personally I have been lucky enough to meet and dance live to the music of Richie & Bobby, Tito (all three of them), Papo, Ray, Wilson, Willie, Arturo, Oscar, Tony, Giovanni, Celia, Cano, Joe, Robert, Luisito, Jose Alberto, Isidro, Fruko, Diego and other living (or now gone) legends (you know who I am talking about). I did not know them all equally well but that did not stop me from enjoying their music with the same enthusiasm. Most important, Salsa belongs to everyone (Chincub I know will object), so everyone can make a contribution to it. Even those cheesy bands from obscure countries that make cheap remakes of the salsa music classics. Eventually, Saul, those who really care will learn. Just like not every one can appreciate Shakespeare in elementary school, not every salsa dancer learning the art of crossbody-leading Tanzanian style can appreciate the arcane secrets of syncopathed polyrhythmic accords. Heck, most people do not even know why they dance a six step pattern on a five strike clave!!! Maybe we should send them all to music school before letting them love the salsa. It is a wonderful thing that you are so well informed about the art that you love and enjoy. Let others enjoy it their own way. If they are blessed, they will one day, on their own time and terms, discover all the beautiful nuances that make Salsa the most popular dance in the world. -- Francisco August 8, 2003 -- DANCERS and MUSIC I agree that most people forget about the musicians. Without them there is no music. Several years ago Larry Harlow contacted me about putting together a small concert or gig for him since he was going to be in Toronto doing a show for children (I believe in Ontario Place). I asked a couple of promoters to look into this and see if there was anything they could do. They didn't even respond to him.. Even after I tried following up with them. It was quite embarrasing that these people didn't even know who this great music legend was nor even bothered to respond. Unfortunately I didn't have to clout to pull this off myself. The current latin stars of today can't compare to yesterdays legends. However, the do get much more recognition. The biggest by far being the Latin Pop stars such as Ricky Martin. On the positive side this can eventually introduce some spectators to the best music and dance in the world (SALSA). I hear a lot of complaints of how people only learn tricks but not proper basics nor music theory, etc... However, it's up to the Salsa lovers, instructors, promoters, etc..to help introduce Salsa to a whole new generation of people as well as different aspects of the dance/music. We must also do it in a tactful way and not ram it down someone's throat lest we want to scare them away from the scene. Instead of telling potential students how bad a certain style, music, instructor is tell them what is good and what they enjoy. I don't necessarily agree that someone has to learn Spanish in order to dance Salsa. However, it doesn't hurt and it will definitely help them interpret the music better. i.e. someone listening to a romantic/sad salsa song should not be doing flips or tricks. If a student/dancer is dedicated he/she will eventually come full circle and listen to all the different styles of salsa and possibly incorporate differenct aspects of the dance (styling/body movements, turn patterns - NY vs Cuban vs Colombian) AND possibly even take Spanish Lessons. When I started dancing, approx. 8-10 years ago (?), the style was
then called Colombian style. That is side basics, open breaks and
basic turns. The point is that Salsa evolves like anything else. However, there are so many people that complain what they don't like about the scene today, whether it be the dancers, instructors, music, etc.., but they don't do anything about it. Why don't they promote what they like? Obviously forums such as TOSALSA.com help. But you don't hear too much about them. Particularly, I think, because they are not mainstream, have not promoted themeselves properly, perhaps they cannot explain/break steps/theories in a concise manner and/or have not taken into consideration what the students want to learn. I for instance have been wanting to bring musicians to my classes.
I'd also like to introduce different aspects of music/culture to the
classes. However, as the say, everything happens in time. Hey Chincub, I've had ballroom people step on me. It definitely hurts. Live, Love, Laugh y Salsa August 12, 2003 -- Dancers & Music - 100% Saul Saul - thank you for sparking off this discussion with your great email. Discovering the salsa greats and even some not-so-greats has been one of the most enriching experiences for me as a dancer. Sometimes I'm dancing to some songs and I want to break free from my partner and just go crazy because there are so many instruments to dance to that cant be supported by our very structured way of dancing. I chose to go to the LA congress specifically because of the lineup. To hear Ray Baretto playing with Adalberto (sp) singing, Jimmy Bosch on trumpets and Herman Oliveria - all on one stage - that's as close I have come to heaven this year :)..... Unfortunately for me, I have a long way to go in my learning. (not to mention that my Spanish is rudimentary and sometimes I think we dance to some songs with lots of double meaning - or maybe my latino friends are playing with my mind.... could Joe Cuba's Preubalo really be about tasting nuts...:). Even worse, after hearing some of the cuban son/timba/charanga and African zouk at Lula I realize I have even more stuff I MUST absorb.... Anyway the bottom line is we need to appreciate the kind of work it takes to source some of the great songs DJs play - Not to mention the richness of live bands... Go out and buy some of the greats it will blow your mind :) -- Still Learning August 13, 2003 -- Dancers and salsa music To Francisco I'd just like to say thanks! Spot on! Good to see someone making sense instead of spitting venom. There is a small group of people who only ever seem to criticise the salsa scene - they say dancers don't appreciate the music, that not enough people know about a certain 1960s Cuban outfit, they complain about showy dancers and slate anything vaguely popular, as if popularity automatically makes something bad (yes, I know on the flip side it doesn't necessarily make it good either). The bottom line (Saul, Chincub et al.) is that if it wasn't for extrovert dancers or popular latin acts such as Victor Manuelle, Marc Anthony or even Ricky Martin (!?), many people would never get into salsa or latin music. The flashy dancers and the commercial hits get people interested (did you ever consider that most people in the club other than you might have enjoyed watching the performance?). Hopefully, after that, they might learn more about salsa and experiment with other styles and less commercial stuff (and I would love them to just as much as you). After all, you have to appeal to the masses or no-one would come to the venues and they would shut down. A club playing straight old-school Cuban salsa wouldn't survive, however much you'd like it. The salsa masses keep these places open, so you at least have somewhere to go. If it displeases you that much, I suggest you stay at home with your CDs (actually, you are probably vinyl geeks) and that way everyone else will be left to enjoy the music and dance without having to look at your sour-grapes faces. Either that or you could appoint yourselves as the salsa police, the guardians of your precious salsa and dictate what we should listen to (what you consider high-brow enough). Live and let live.... Ivan August 21, 2003 -- DIvan's e-mail about appreciating salsa dancing Ivan, Why do you always equate Cuban music with old music? This seems like a strange prejudice on your part. You are right. If If a nightclub only plays old school Cuban music they will go out of business not only in North America but also in Cuba. The music that you think is the Cuban music of today is old music in Cuba. The young people in Cuban don't listen to 1970's Los Van Van or the Buena Vista Social Club. Duh. Have you heard of any group that became popular after the 1990's in Cuba. You are too lazy, ignorant or prejudiced to look it up. We are not vinyl geeks. Timba (Cuban salsa) is the music of TODAY. It is the popular music of Cuba. It is not for music geeks who own all of Benny More's records. Everybody in Cuba has heard of Issac Delgado, F.G. Paulito, La charanga habanera, etc. And surprise !! They dance to this music !! They don't just sit down and listen to it. Most of the people who think Salsa came from New York are more Vinyl Geeks than we are. They constantly live in the era 1970's Fania. Of course, if you had a choice to listen to old Fania records or Victor Manuelle, who would you listen to? I think New York has never been as good as it was in the 1970's. In contrast, some of the best salsa music that Cuban has produced is being produced now !!! It is popular in Cuba. Everyone from people who don't know anything about music to salsa aficionados listen to this music. Ivan, get over your prejudice and go over to www.timba.com September 24 , 2003 -- Dancers & Salsa Music There's a very simple two-pronged answer to this general topic. One: The songs are in Spanish! A lot of us in the U.S. and Canada really like Salsa music but our Spanish is limited (or non-existent). That makes it more difficult to pick up the lyrics while dancing and to be able to guess what the song title is if we want to buy it later on. Some of the first Salsa CDs I bought were COMPLETE GUESSES, since I bought compilations based on recognizing a few famous names among the artists. Sometimes I got lucky when the song titles I didn't know turned out to be songs that I had heard a lot in the clubs. Then I started to figure out some less-famous artists I liked so that I could buy their specific albums. Two: There are very limited ways for people to learn the names of songs! Most bands or DJ's don't make people aware of the names of the songs/artists that they play. It's rare for an announcement of the artist at the beginning or end of a song -- things just flow from one song to another. I *am* interested in knowing, but I have to make the extra effort of going up to the DJ to ask the name of a song/artist. (And sometimes even the DJ's don't know, especially if they're just playing a CD mix somebody else made for them.) The other way that people find out about artists/song titles is when they listen to the radio, but there are only a handful of cities that have radio stations playing Salsa all the time -- and they tend to speak in Spanish exclusively, which takes us back to point number one (the language barrier). -- Michael W. October 6, 2003 -- Dancers and Salsa music There seems to be the misconception that every radio station in Latin America plays salsa, and that the doctor provides the newborn with an in-depth explanation of the clave and the tumbao at the time of cutting the umbilical cord. I have been speaking Spanish since I was five years old and lived in a Central American country for twelve years. In those twelve years, I've never danced salsa, it was just never popular in the clubs ( although I hear it has started to gain ground ). We would dance to the latest music from Gringolandia, from New Kids on the Block to Aerosmith to anything in between. I have friends from Mexico, Peru and Chile who, like myself, have only been exposed to the salsa scene upon arriving in Canada. Personally, I find that it is nice to understand the lyrics, but unfortunately, they usually have little depth and add almost nothing to the actual dancing. 95% of the songs are either "Let's get this Party started", "Hey mamacita, I lost my number, can I have yours?" or "My dog ran over my wife in my burro and now I cry". ( The only exception might be Ruben Blades, who consistently puts out songs that makes you go 'hmmmm'. i.e. Desapariciones, Juan Pachanga, Pedro Najavas, etc ) Musically, salsa is incredible, the way the different instruments blend and interact with each other, led by the voice and energy of the singer is simply breathtaking. However, I don't think salsa can be appreciated without a proper introduction to the music structure and the instruments. I went through many lessons with different schools, learning how to keep my frame and lead complex turn patterns, all the while never really understanding how to connect the 1,2,3,5,6,7 to the music. On the dance floor, I was a mess, either leading too fast or too slow, getting frustrated at every turn. Every dancer I asked would say, just listen to the music and you'll get it, I spent four months listening to music, NADA, ZIP, ni pellejos en la pulga. Then I found the on2 class with MamboTribe and BAM! the missing piece of the puzzle came into place. When Stephanie and Mark-Anthony broke down the tumbao and made us clap the clave, the magic of salsa came alive to me. It took me five weeks to slowly get the concepts to sink in to my thick skull, but now I don't feel lost on the dance floor anymore. The biggest difference is that the music, instead of being a metronome I used to keep time, became alive, a living entity that I could play with and interpret with my body. I used to think that as the leader, I was to decide the moves on the spot, now I understand that the chain of responsability is really music->lead->follow. The musicians or DJ lead the entire dance floor with his/her energy, the leader gets the vibe from the music and passes this energy to the woman, she in turn feeds energy back to the singer / dj. I have a long way to go in my mambo, but understanding the music has made me fall in love with salsa all over again. To Michael W., there are some incredible resources on the internet
to find out about the artists and musicians that play salsa. My favorites
are www.timba.com, www.salsastream.com and www.batanga.com, these
radio stations usually shill the CDs of the artists that are currently
playing, so you don't have to go through the guessing process. Also
check out the other types of artists out there, you will find an incredible
diversity of music, because believe it or not, Spanish music is more
than salsa. --El Chinito Veloz Dear
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