September 18, 2002 -- respond to Richie

Mr Richie i should give you the same advised, you should learn more about cuban music to open your eyes and leave your bomba and plena a side for one minute,and you should go to school for music because you talk to much about what bands have done with out really knowing about the music it self,sure you could be a great musician with out going to a misic school, if you have a great ear like the great Beny More and many others but my point is not about school or no school for musicians ,my point is about school for people like you.

Now you did not answer my question about explaining what salsa is musically,first of all i'm not trying to get the rights of salsa for Cuba because cubans don't care about that,you can call it salsa or picante but don't call cuban music salsa.Why when bands play bomba they call it bomba,same thing with plena or seis chorreao in that case any hibaro music,they say it is Puerto Rican music, it doesn't matter if it is played in N.Y or China or if it is mixed with any other type of music it is still Puerto Rican music but now when it is mixed with cuban music it is called salsa??, now lets take away the cuban influence from salsa and what do you have left? if you Rechie knew how to play the congas and for two minutes i ask you to play salsa what would you play? bomba? plena? no you would play or use the percussion of son with la clave,does bomba or plena use the clave of 3x2 or 2x3,100 hunred years ago did N.Y,Puerto Rico or Colombia used la clave with a pair of congas or bongos?,so salsa is more than cuban music,what is that more you speak of?.

So tell me why some Puerto Ricans and N.YRicans are fighting so much about salsa and who invented it when the proof is ight there in the music,now of course you don't see it from this side because you don't know much about cuban culture or the music it self,it doesn't matter if you represent the best salsa singer and if you live and eat with him you think that would let you know everything about the music,now it would be more fair to say musicians in N.Y have use cuban music and in some of their songs they have mixed it with other rhythms also inventing their own but (my brother)that music would have to sound very different. 95% of the time you still hear cuban music in salsa,if you are going to call salsa songs that have son and bomba ok but what about the other songs that are straight son or timba that type of music is not salsa and that is where the argument starts.

Now pedro navaja is son,che che cole or que bien te ves are not son,those songs have nothing to do with Cuba but is it fair that two or three songs out of ten songs in a cd should take away the name and rename it salsa for the other 7 songs?,i think it is unfair that people think of che che cole or la murga de el Panama as salsa. I grabed 3 cds, (1) was Caminando (Ruben Blades) out of 10 songs 8 were basic cuban rhythms 2 especially the last song Raiz de suenos was bomba, (2) cd Siembra (Ruben Blades&Willie Colon) out of 7 songs 5 were basic cuban rhythms, (3) cd Tras la tormenta (Ruben&Willie) out of ten songs 5 were basic cuban rhythms and the other 5 you would not be able to dance your commercial salsa steps to them,and for the record the song (vamonos pal monte)is not a guaracha it is a son montuno(bro)that shows me how much you know about this music,you are not a dancer or a musician why should you comments matter?just because you have avery cd doesn't mean you know music.

You talk about Perico Ortiz(my friend)Perico did not invent cuban music,now musicians always influence one another but that doesn't change the history of the music(I'm using one of your examples)now what do you think Perico on one corner saying that he is not recognized enough according to you and Tito Puente on the other corner a Puerto Rican ,the king of N.Y's latin music saying that he doesn't play salsa that he plays cuban music (mambo) Who to believe? Tito and Cuba or you and other missed informed people that only want to sell the music.Now you are going to say that Perico invented timba,and who invented songo Tito Nieves?what about the next rhythm that is going to come out of Cuba a couple of years from now,wich Puerto Rican invented that one first Jerry Rivera?.

In Cuba people respect this musicians because they respect cuban music and they are also great musicans like Perico and Oscar de leon,Tito Puente met Zelia Cruz in Cuba when he went to study there, and bands like El gran combo are also very well respected in Cuba ,they never got in to where salsa came from.all of them have learn from cuban musicians and were extremly influenced by cuban music,now you never went to school for music because you live it by being part of it,well there are a few million people that also never went to music school in Cuba and they can tell the truth because son,danzon,cha cha cha and timba is something that people learn when they are born.

Now i also have a hard time beleving you about this musicians you know and talk of that say that salsa is more than cuban music,how much more 5%,before Perico and changing the rules in 1986 there were bands changing the rules in cuba like Los van van,La Reve,N.G,etc,in the 70's in Cuba people experimented by mixing cumbia or plena with son but they did not call it salsa they called it by just saying what it was son with plena,cumbia,bomba or jazz out of respect for other music that wasn't cuban,but outside Cuba is called salsa,also cuban music has always change or influnce salsa not the other way around,salsa doesn't influence cuban music because son is always in evolution that is way we have songo and timba and in a few years there will be something new and it will change the sound of salsa just like timba is doing it now,i don't see bomba,plena or cumbia changing the salsa scene right now,right now salsa is stuck untill a new rhythm comes from Cuba and pushes salsa to change and you know that is the truth.. you say that salsa is light years ahead from son?tradditional son maybe but songo or timba has been a head of salsa 20 years ago,or just listen to the last cd of Sonora Carruseles and the last cd of Bamboleo or Klimax and sonora would dream to play like that one day.

About your comments of la Fania and Manicero,so it would be ok if la Fania played in mexico and people be yelling azteca!! does it make sence (bro),about jazz there are many types of LATIN JAZZ,like jazz with bomba, samba, gipsy or afro Peruvian but to the ear of the salsa dancer when they hear cuban jazz descarga they know they can do their salsa moves because cuban music is salsa,before you know it they are going to start calling cuban jazz descarga salsa too!!,also i think you should learn more about Afro Cuban jazz so you can understand me when i talk about using clave of rumba,batas and afro cuban lirycs(yoruba)for example,for someone that is involved with jazz you don't know to much about the numer #1 selling LATIN JAZZ in the world wich is Afro Cuban or Cuban jazz (Listen to Jane Bunnet).

I think for you to understand this (bro)you should inroll in a school at level 1 beginner #A they would teach you about cuban music and carabbian music in general,here is a good place where many of your salsa gods have taken lessons with people like changito or Chucho Valdes the School of National Arts Havana Cuba. You told me to go back to my 50 and 60s records of cuban music,it is funny that when this records came out people would dance to them like people dance to them today and in many of the songs specially guarachas there will be solos specially by the timbales or congas very much like you would see at a fania concert today but at that time in the early 60's the name salsa only existed in the kitchen not in the music world,why people can't explain what salsa is musically with out touching son is because salsa the name exists but not the music,when you ask a musician on the congas for example to play son they do it,when you ask about bonba or cumbia they can play it and explain how it is done,but if you ask for salsa they have to go back to son and la clave.

P.S Study your clave history(bro) via Haiti????

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September 18, 2002 -- Richie's Response to Vladimir

Yeah... you're right.....(Sigh) Whatever.....

BTW-Luis "Perico" Ortiz has no clue who you are nor has he ever known or been friends with un tal Vladimir. You must have meant the other kind of PERICO. Now THAT I can buy as being your close buddy.

PS-Clave by way of Haiti. That's right. Look it up Einstein's. And get this....The Son was brought to Cuba by way of a Dominican Woman!!! (GASP!) And guess where they have that mentioned in?....(drum roll)

The School of National Arts In Havana, Cuba.

:-p = pppppllllllppppppppphhhhhffffffff!

You guys read the books or do you just look at the pictures?....

"Parece Mentira que tuvo que venir un extranjero a enseqarnos como bailar nuestra musica..." - Pello El Afrokan after witnessing Anibal Vazquez of the Mambo Aces perform in a visit he made to Cuba -- Richie

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September 28, 2002 -- Why be afraid of Timba?

Why are people so afraid of Timba? These people fall into 2 groups.

1) Especially Latin people in North America are so resistant to Timba. They say music is from Cuba is great, la-de-da, but they can't name one contemporary band in Cuba. Maybe it is because Timba is less commercial than salsa and that's why. I mean Radiohead sells less than Britney Spears.

2) The teachers and advanced dancers of New York/ LA style salsa. If I hear a great song from Fania, I try to dance in a more New York style. When they play a Cuban salsa song here, nobody tries to dance in a more Cuban way. Maybe they don't know how to dance to Timba or they are just to proud to dance another way. My experience with advanced LA or New York style dancers who take Cuban style salsa dance classes make me think the latter is true. Although at the beginning, they seem enthusiastic, they get bored. They don't pay attention to (or can't do) the little details that make Cuban style different. Perhaps for them is not as showy as LA style, but don't realize it is not just dips, hard spins that make you a great dancer. Cuban style is not as showy as LA style, but it much more difficult. Maybe that's why people don't like it. I have a friend who has taken salsa classes for years, but in his first Cuban salsa dance class, he quit because he couldn't get the hang of it. And he couldn't get his body to react and respond differently to the music after years of Ballroom/ LA style indoctrination.

I read an article about Alberto Alberto of Quimica Perfecta in Picante Express. He hits the nail right on the head. The salsa industry of teachers and musicians in North American is based on New York/ Puerto Rican salsa, timba threatens that. Most New York salsa music aficionados live in the past, the Golden Age of Fania. But there is a Golden age of Salsa music happening RIGHT NOW in Cuba. The Timba revolution. Lula

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October 15, 2002 -- I am scared of Timba! Haaaa, haaaa, haaaaa....

Lula, I find your comments about non Cuban Salsa Dancers rather amusing. Preferences for music and dances are deeply rooted in culture, tradition and history. I read with interest how neatly you are able to categorise people into two groups who are ' AFRAID ' of Timba. Why? Is Timba some kind of incurable desease? That people who does not listen or dance in a particular way are ' AFRAID ' of it. How, may I ask, is a Golden Age of ' Timba ' music happening RIGHT NOW in Cuba going to ' threaten ' the North Americans. Pardon me, I am in Toronto, I couldn't care less how Cubans or New Yoricans dance. I choose the way I want to dance, it is called ' the feeling good ' way. Oh, and by the way, you Lula can dance the way you want to, I won't feel the least bit ' threatened '. Just as I won't feel ' threatened ' by how people in New York or LA dance. I do also dance International Ballroom, are you ' AFRAID ' of dancing International Ballroom? I don't think so. You may not have the vibes for International Ballroom, that's cool! Richard

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October 17, 2002 --Salseros have no fear !!!

More power to you richard & to all the salseros in toronto
keep dancing anyway u like! I'm from NYC and we accept anyones style at least i do (Street style salsa). Afraid of timba. I'm not afraid of timba, I have my SALSA "Que con mi SALSA no hay quien puedas". Could it be that salseros don't want to listen nor dance to that. That's all. I am a Salsero hardcore I have it in my viens.why are on earth do i want to listen to that. You stay w/your timba I'll stay w/ My Salsa que es lo que hay!!!
SALSA es lo que es Y salsa sera!!! Timba? puhleeez.
SALSA SALSA SALSA SALSA SALSA SALSA SALSA SALSA SALSA SALSA
SALSERO DE VERDAD, El Lapiz!

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October 22, 2002 -- respond to Richie

Mr Richie i must tell you that i espected smarter remarks from you, first of all go back to our discussions and you will see that i never said that i knew Perico, you brought him out in pass comments, i wrotte that i had dance for artists such as Oscar De Leon, El Canario, Victor Manuel e.t.c and every time i spoke to them about salsa if it was really cuban music they would basically say yes especially Oscar,he said that salsa is comercial cuban music. About the perico you speak of if it is on your mind it must be part of your life but what ever makes you happy, keep on beleaving that salsa is puerto rican or from N.Y or Dominican. If you want to talk to some that knows me talk to El Patato Valdes he lives in N.Y or go to Cuba and talk to Felix Baloy the #1 sonero in the world right now and he will tell you about this music you call salsa, el patato said this to me one time when i met him at the Latin quarter in N.Y (la salsa es la musica cubana mal tocada).

About the Dominican women and the son did she bring it in a box or the she have it send to her? when it is proved that salsa is a comercial invention you start by now saying that even son is not cuban, next you are going to say that cha cha cha is fron Mexico!!, about your coments about the books and if we read them well i'm a professional dancer and i went to school for music so i do read books but not the ones written by people like you or Willie Colon, books that are made to sell Willie him self so he can be king of N.Y and get into politics. If i see Willie Colon i would shake his hand and than i would say (why do you tell people something that is not true, go to Cuba and don't be afraid and talk to the new and also old musicians and you would not be able to win any arguments about this music that is cuban).I would say this to his face because it is the truth and he knows it too but he doesn't want to loose that because salsa gives puerto ricans an identity in N.Y.

About your Pello Afrocan coments, even if a german would go to Cuba tomorrow and teach everybody a thing or two about cuban music it would not matter because it would not change the history of the music and also who invented cuban music which is Cuba.

Listen Richie i have walked the streets of El Barrio in N.Y and also visited the Latin Quarter,El Copacabana and I'm proud of being Latin and i must tell you that the Latin sene in N.Y is amazing and it has a long history but i have also walked the streets of Havana and the music you call salsa has been there longer than in N.Y and every cuban feels it because it is cuban music, i have also walked the country side where you wont even find electricity like in Guantanamo and all the parties had son,claves ,maracas, congas,guiro and tres and people would dance just like people dance in salsa clubs here in noth america but of course not so comercial they were not doing Eddy Torres lates shine, they would dance with their hearts and with la clave and they did not know what salsa is or who Willie Colon is, they were just guajiros dancing to changui and to you salsa is more than cuban music. -- Vladimir

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October 23, 2002 --Response to Richard

Richard, Of course, you should care about music from other places. 99.99999% of the music you dance your Latin Ballroom come from places other than Toronto. Don't be so provincial. You can make the point that peoples' dancing style is their personal response to the music. This is true to a certain extent. At some
point, you DID care how other people danced, that's why you took your Ballroom lessons. I am sure you didn't develop your own basic step. You learned from somebody. You chose Latin Ballroom. Why didn't you choose Cuban or Colombian style? The reasons behind this decision probably reveals something about your age, class, ethnicity and world view, one with a very Eurocentric, Anglocentric basis. European dancing
displaying grace and poise and Afro-Latin dancing being too savage (too much butt shaking, just like how Willie Colon described Cuban dancing). Am I right?

Richard. You should care about other countries and cultures or other styles of dancing. Timba is really good music. Probably you have never heard it (I forgot you don't even care what type of salsa it is. You like the music if it makes you do your little dance). It would be great if we lived in a world where we could hear all types of music and be exposed to different styles of dances and we could choose what we liked. But of course, Cuban music has not been given a fair chance in the American marketplace for reasons mentioned above by me. -- Lula

P.S. I am not threatened by Latin Ballroom. I am a music fan, not a figure skating or synchronized swimming fan.

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December 5, 2002 -- Rebuttal from DJ Billy Bryans to Rose Knows

Rose, Awfully sorry you had trouble fitting your turn patterns into Evaristo Machado's music. Must be frustrating. But please stop blaming Cuban music for your dancing issues.

Here are the facts that you got wrong..

1) Evaristo Machado does not play timba music. He plays a combination of son, salsa and latin jazz.
2) The tempos in Evaristo's music do not change within the songs. You are not hearing the music properly.
3) It is not characteristic of timba that tempos change within songs except for a few tunes by Charanga Habanera, Medico and Bamboleo. You will not find tempo changes from artists such artists as Klimax, NG La Banda, Paulito FG, Los Van Van. And when you hear tempo changes, they are quite musical and good dancers follow them easily.

Most likely what is throwing you off time when you are dancing, or what you are feeling as tempo changes, are the 'bloques' (the rhythmic punctuations used to end verses and choruses). 'Bloques' are common to all forms of salsa, but are much more aggressive in Cuban music and can throw a dancer off, if the dancer is dancing mechanically or lacks a feel for the rhythms (a syndrome all too common with the so-called salseros). Good dancers use the bloques as emphasis points and tend to play with them.

Rose, it sounds like you lack an understanding of the clavé rhythm, because if you did understand the clavé, you would not be identifying tempo changes in Evaristo's music which don't exist. And then you wouldn't be blaming the music for the fact that you can't dance to it. And then if you didn't have the music to blame, you may have to face the fact that need a few lessons in the basics, like, er, how the follow the tempo.

Both Vladimir Aranda and Stephanie Gurnon give good introductory classes in the clavé.

A couple of questions.

1) Does TOSalsa think they are experts on latin music and dance?

Let me get this straight. On one hand there is TOSalsa, which reflects (primarily) a group of Canadian people who have a hobby dancing a very structured, specific (some would say conformist) interpretation of latin dance music as defined by North Americans, ie salsa
On the other hand , here are these Cuban musicians who have lived their music, dance and culture. Evaristo Machado is an accomplished singer and composer, and was a professional dancer in Havana for many years. His drummer, Chendy Leon Jr, is universally considered one of the most accomplished latin percussionists in Canada today. Which means that they are about 200 times more qualified in latin music and dance (including salsa) than TOSalsa.
So, is TOSalsa all over these guys with their questions about tempos? turn patterns?

Nope. Is TOSalsa avid to learn how Cuban dance differs from Puerto Rican or Colombian or NY salsa in order to improve their dance skills, broaden their outlook, seek more knowledge? Evidently not. Why not?

2)Is it TOSalsa or USSalsa?

This is Canada. We never boycotted Cuba, we did not decide that the only acceptable Cuban music is that made by 75 year Cuban son musicians. Toronto's live latin music scene is now being driven by Cuban musicians. The dance teachers (Vladimir, Ana, Chico, Julio) are emerging to make their contributions, and there is a growing audience of anglos, latinos and Cuban-Canadians who follow Cuban music in clubs like Lula's, Panorama, Cervejaria, and Mana on Tuesdays. Why doesn't TOSalsa get someone who is qualified to reflect this?

Billy Bryans