Cuban
Timba Music Discussion
Part 1: May - June
Part 2: July - August
Part 3: September - Present
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our readers.
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Cuban
Timba Music Discussion |
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May 9, 2002 Last week, I dropped by Berlin on Tuesdays and finally
got to see Quimica Perfecta, which has a great sound for Cuban Timba,
but not always the best for dancing as they are the typical musicians.
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The Feedback.... May 10, 2002 -- Musicians vs DJ Re your comments about Quimica Perfecta and their "great sound for Cuban Timba, but not always the best for dancing as they are the typical musicians". OK, that does it: we need a new controversia! If only to remind TOSALSA that are out here, the "live music lovers". TO Salsa has the best live latin music event listings and we need you to keep it that way... ! There is no controversia til the first person disagrees, so here's the start. Discos suck. Live Music rules. More? OK... Discos are for narcissists. Live music venues are for people who think it's about everybody, the energy of the whole scene. Get you going yet? <grin> To say "the tempo can change drastically and quickly up or down and can throw a dancer off-beat or render you totally inept as their music gets erratic in tempo", okay... but it's all a matter of degree. Otherwise, it could mean anything. But if you find Quimica Perfecta (and you imply all musicians) like that, I'd say you are too used to just doing the same old choreographed moves, to the same old recorded music you know inside out. Then dancing is about you, maybe a little bit a partner, but nobody else. For live music fans, dancing is about interaction with what the band is putting out, "right now". You anticipate, you guess about the "hits", the pauses, etc. Have you ever seen a Latin band where the musicians didn't watch the dancers, and feed off them? It's two way communication at it's best. Hopefully that gets some comments! Bottom
line, don't forget us: there are tosalsa.com fans who'd much rather
go dance to a live band, and hardly ever go to a disco. Keep posting
all that great info about live events! regards Artie. May 12, 2002 -- Quimica Perfecta Dear Rose, May 16, 2002 -- Response to Chincub's - Quimica Perfecta Ok, I've read a lot of the "fine" writing that Chincub puts out and I would like to make my first personal response. I apologize in advace if it is found by some readers to be too offensive and/or humorous. CHINCUB SAYS... #1 ERIK SAYS... *** Please edit what you type ***
"And their way of accentuating the music is to dip during a pause. You have to listen to the music and wait for the sudden changes in the music (bridges) to change your dancing." ERIK SAYS... !!Don't listen to Chincub - Even though it might be inappropriate to dance fast in a slow part of a song or spin in the very beginning of a Marc Anthony love ballad... Do it if you like it.... It's ok, Judge Erik says so. If you're happy and having a good time, heck, spin her twice. And you know what, if Chincub sees you just say... "Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na" CHINCUB SAYS... #3 ERIK SAYS.... That's fine salsa is boring, you know what I think reggae is boring - bottom line - you can't like everything and that's cool with me. But to state that it's the same pace and rhythm throughout the song - I'm gonna have to give a resounding I DON'T AGREE. If you remember from SALSA 101 - Salsa the tomato dip, is just like the music. A vibrant combination of many wild and flavourful ingredients. Please listen to ALL the beats of ALL the instruments. You will notice that YES rhythms and beats do change. Sorry... they do... Oh and again, give up with the whole Timba is more popular argument already. ...Oh yeah, that's that dance that no one knows. Muwah ha ha ha, Regards, Erik -- Let the debating..... BEGIN May 16, 2002 -- Quimica Perfecta, Timba and 'the dancer' Rose. I think your comments about Quimica Perfecta at Berlin reflect more on your limitation as a dancer than on the ability of the group to move an audience. I have promoted Quimica Perfecta at The Bamboo too many times to wildly dancing audiences of all persuasions to not want to question why you would say something as frankly, dumb, as, "their style of music is not catered to the dancer" Timba music is not catered to the dancer? What kind of dancer are you referring to, a robot? One of the myths of timba is that you cant dance salsa to it which, I'm sorry, is nonsense. (Hey, I have a vivid imagination, maybe I was hallucinating that Caryl and Angus were dancing to Klimax and Paulito FG last night when I was filling in for Alvaro C at BaBalu's) Timba has the same clave rhythm and the same basic
mambo as One of the more fascinating aspects of the Toronto Salsa dance scene that I've noticed is that they seem so threatened by Cuban music or dance. Has anybody else noticed this? Rose, I'll make you a deal. You come down to my Tumbao night at Mana on Tuesday, I'll play you some Sonora Poncena or El Grand Combo, then I'll mix it into some Cuban music like NG La Banda or Maraca, and if you still cant dance to timba, then I can recommend some teachers who can show you how. Peace, Love and Diversity, dj Billy Bryans May 19, 2002 May 20, 2002 -- my timba rant It's the assumption behind the statement that was
so smug and thoughtless You should have said that for your particular style
of dance QP (or timba It's simply inaccurate to say the QP's music is not catered to the dancer. It's equally inaccurate (and culturally very stupid) to say that timba music isn't catered to the dancer, it's very raison d'etre is the dancer ... just not your kind of dancer And then maybe if you saw other people dancing to
QP, or timba music, you It is easy to measure the success of a band. If the dance floor empties, there is a message being conveyed to the band. And when it stays empty, the club gets a reputation, and the dancers moves on. Here we go a again, Chincub telling us how to dance, it is too fast, too slow. You see, I dance the way I want to, no one tells me what to dance and how to dance. The band is included in this regard. Dancers pay the bills, we are the customers. Try to entertain us and not preach to us. There is a guy that frequents Berlin and Babaluus, he dances all alone. It is his choice, what are we to say that what he does is improper. If I should choose to dance Rhumba to Bachata, that
choice is mine to make. We are out there to have fun, to socialize.
The band is there to assist in that regard. Quote: I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance Better than Myself... Mikhail Baryshnikov" Richard May 28, 2002 -- Rose's response
to DJ Billy Bryans May 31, 2002 People should have fun and dance however they want. It's about having a good time. But don't think the way people dance in Toronto is their own natural response to the music. THEY WERE TAUGHT TO DANCE THAT WAY. Do you think none of winners of the Berlin salsa contest have taken a dance lesson? Or maybe you think you are innovating Timba dance. Of course, innovation is fine. But innovators have some idea of what the traditional way of dancing is or or have a deep understanding of the music. I really doubt you have a deep understanding of Timba music -- Chincub May 31, 2002 Timba is based on Songo. Songo was inspired the movements of the dancers that Juan Formel of Los Van Van saw. Timba was developed and inspired for and by dancers -- Chincub June 3, 2002 -- Response to Chincub Have you ever heard of Timba? Do you know the difference between Timba and Salsa? Have you ever heard of Songo? I am sure before you took lessons with your ballroom
teacher you didn't know how to dance salsa. Timba comes from Cuba, it is a different rhythm.
Have you ever seen Cuban people dance Timba? People should have fun and dance however they want.
It's about having a good time. But don't think the way people dance in Toronto
is their own natural response to the music. They were taught to dance that way. But innovators have some idea of what the traditional
way of dancing is or or have a deep understanding of the music. I
really doubt you have a deep understanding of Timba music I do not have a deep understanding of Timba nor have I ever claimed to be an expert on the subject. Another point - will an understanding of Timba and
Songo really make me enjoy the dance any more than I already do? Cuba gave us music (whatever you want to call it) and people passed it onto different regions. When the music arrived to those different regions they already had their own local sounds and music as well. These sounds were incorporated to the new "Cuban music", and with further mutations and changes to the sound a whole new genre was created. After many years of evolution the final product is now a stand-alone genre of music separate but connected to its root in Cuba. However, to state that the new music is still Cuban music is wrong. It is different yet it is connected to those first sounds in Cuba. Just like I come from my father and my son comes from me, my son is nothing like my father. There is a sovereign connection and a lineage that should not be forgotten, but what Cubans and Torontonians do now are not the same thing and it is not productive to make comparisons, and assume that they are the same. They just aren't. Regards, Erik June 3, 2002 -- Songa, Timba, Tonga, bing, bong! Chincub, well, I am not sure who you are referring
to as "you" in your post. For that matter, I am very steadfast
in not comparing my dancing to any other dancer(s). Thus, when it
is counter intuitive to me, it is just me I am referring to. No amount
of prodding from you will draw me into a debate about something that
has no International Standard or benchmark. Richard Quote: I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance Better than Myself... Mikhail Baryshnikov" June 5, 2002 -- Timba vs. salsa Rose, I'm confused why you have a hard time dancing to timba unless I'm confused about Timba. I thought that Timba artists included Los Van Van, Irakere, Isaac Delgado, Cubanismo, NG la Banda, Adalberto Alvarez, among others. It's all salsa all the time with this group! I haven't heard the band that sparked this discussion but maybe Billy could come back on and send out another list of Timba artists if I'm not on the right page here -- Josue June 5, 2002 -- Timba vs. salsa Hi Josue, if people would read a little more carefully,
Quimica Perfecta did play danceable timba music, BUT there were times
when musicians LOVE to break into what I'll call "Descarga",
super-fast rhythms in the middle of a salsa turn pattern and renders
the leader incapable of adapting to the music. IF they were playing
in a live music band type of club where it's populated mostly by non-dancers,
then it works fine as you're just listening and appreciating the music
and/or you can dance any way you feel like it (if you don't know any
salsa steps), but if you have a whole floor of dancers -- it frustrates
them as the music can become totally undanceable because it's too
fast for the typical style of Toronto salsa versus whatever the Cubans
use to dance to "Timba". June 12, 2002 -- just a comment Hey there: I don't really want to offend anyone but
I couldn't resist the temptation to write something . Well, all you
talking about people that cannot dance TIMBA, they should learn because
they do not know what they are missing. However, why focus only on
the dancing part, come on be more artistic and think for a moment
that Quimica Perfecta are the ones coming from the land of timba and
they better than anyone know how to play it, and if anyone gets lost
while there is a stop, mambo, bomba o break in their songs and cannot
stand the faster to slower changes, then I am sorry, but they don't
feel the music at all. So Billy, timba is da power. VIVA LA TIMBA
CUBANAAAAA that's all June 13, 2002 -- response to josue Josue, Here are some new albums that I'm playing tracks from El Son de Adalberto - Adelberto Alvarez Klimax have a new one that I havent heard yet, Charanga Habanera have a live double CD out, and apparantly Carlos Manuel is tops right now in Havana (still) with a new CD that includes remixes of some old songs Beats me why many salseros seem to resist timba, my Tuesday night Tumbao party at Mana is still not listed in the TOSalsa club hangouts even though they get asked about places for salsa cubana. Four reasons why it's fun to play timba 1) it's a challenge to mix such multi-faceted music
peace June 14, 2002 -- Of Timba, Quimica & BB and Letting Go I am still learning about the different roots of salsa
and know I have a ways to June 17, 2002 -- Timba, no commercialism please! Rose, I have noticed a tint of commercial biase about Timba, from DJ's. I do not think that DJ's should make negative comments about other clubs and DJ's. To do so is a kiss of death to that individual's opinions about music. So, no commercialism please! We would like to hear from non DJ's, bands, hanger ons and groupies about Timba. That way, dancers can get the truth not some trumped up hype! Richard To Erik, Graham and Richard. I don't know why you guys are in the Timba debate. You guys even admit you don't anything about timba. Richard, if you didn't do your little cute dance when
a Timba was playing, you must have been dead. To Erik, I never said
Cubans weren't taught to dance. But Erik and Richard seem to think
the way "advanced" dancers in Toronto is their natural reaction
to the music. But in Cuba, dancing and timba music fed off each their,
a situation that didn't happen in Canada. Timba originated in Cuba
with the music and dancing. Then of course, you SHOULD care how people
dance in Cuba. Why are people so scared and prejudiced against Timba. I am in total agreement with DJ Billy Bryan. I think because Timba threatens to destroy New York/Latin Ballroom industry (New York/Puerto Rican bubble gum salsa, salsa congresses, New York/LA style dance instructors) -- chincub June 20, 2002 Que Pasa Loco-Issaac Delgado Like Quimica Perfecta and most other authentic Cuban bands, Sonido Cubano LOVES to play Timba. However, since music is business, they have rounded out their repertoire to include just about everything from Traditional "Buena Vista" type music, to contemporary Salsa, Cumbia, Bachata, Merengue, Boleros and of course Timba. David's idea is to "slip" in a Timba song here and there to get people used to the rhythm. They are able to play a bit more Timba at El Convento Rico's Thursday Havana Nights. He could take an hour to explain what Timba is, but as I understand it, the music has the same beat as Salsa, just that it is hidden sometimes. Cuban dancers like to dance to it because the beat is in their head already (I think from birth!) and they like the intricate rhythms that each instrument invents kind of over top of the original Salsa rhythm. To someone not "born" listening to Salsa, Timba sometimes seems very complicated and as if the musicians are confused, changing rhythms and or tempo. Well, in an attempt to steer clear from controversy,
that's my contribution to the Timba discussion. Thank you to all those
readers who support live music. June 20, 2002 -- Timba discussion Chincub, Isn't interesting that when you speak about the genre of Timba you somehow fail to regress into your "it is a modernized version of Son" argument. You are very adamant about describing and acknowledging Timba's unique sound and musical attributes AND you seem very proud of the fact that it was born and cultivated in Cuba. Yet, not surprisingly, you somehow have prevented yourself from relegating Timba under the cloak of the folkoric Son genre. Why aren't you saying that Timba is really Son?? Why are you recognizing Timba's non-Son influences such as U.S. hip-hop/rap and rock?? You refuse to acknowledge Salsa's non-Cuban musical influences and yet you don't do the same for Timba. Why aren't you following your own line of argument? According to Chincub, any musical genre that has the Cuban Son as one of its influences (and was developed outside of Cuba) is just simply Son music. Unlike Timba, Salsa did not develop in Cuba, so therefore, because of Salsa's mass popularity, individuals like Chincub find it necessary to falsely reclaim a musical genre and put the Cuban flag on it and thus take away credit from all the other non-Cuban NY Latinos that participated in the creation of this music. If salsa did not have the mass appeal that it does then I am willing to bet that we would not be having these discussions. Chincub, the only people that are scared of Timba music and artists becoming popular in North America are the fanatical anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami. It is Cuban exile and U.S Cold War politics that is preventing contemporary Cuban music from fully developing in North America. This is one of the primary reasons why no Timba band is signed to a major U.S. label. Have you not heard of the U.S. embargo against Cuba?? Rogelio June 20, 2002 -- Timba discussion Chincub, I don't think that Timba could ever "destroy" the well established (and essential) salsa scenes/styles in LA, NY or PR. It is shaking things up though, which is perfectly acceptable. A lot of people in NY still grudgingly accept LA style. BTW Rose, Timba is growing in NY and there are a number of clubs, as in Toronto, that support local and well established Timba talent. Timba instructors may even be able to crack the well-established leagues of "On-2" salsa instructors. It's certainly not a style of music that is going to go away. It's NY and anything can happen. Josue Rose, Check this out if you haven't: http://www.salsacrazy.com/salsaroots/nysalsero.htm I think it's a very important article. I see more and more new dancers in Toronto trying to acheive the "NY pinnacle", while ignoring all other forms of salsa, which I feel is quite foolish considering the diversity inherent in TO. I think comments made against Timba stem from the NY attitude against anything non-NY. Thanks again! Josue June 21, 2002 -- Why is Timba delicious? Rose, It is a pleasure reading informative articles
on Timba. As a consumer of music, it is my desire to be informed rather
than being preached to. I am not here to debate with, convince, convert,
or persuade any one. ' Ra, ra, hand waving' , and ' I tell you so'
type of articles turn me off and does little to quench my thirst for
knowledge. Dancers feeding off bands and vice versa, it is nothing
new and is definitely not unique to Timba. The magical moment between
a band, its audience can also happen, when Violin Concerto No. 1 in
G Minor, Op. 26 by Max Bruch is conducted and played. June 21, 2002 -- Chincub, Chincub, Chincub Here we go again, I am really getting tired of these circular arguments but I will try and make one last stab at having an internet discussion with the most knowledgable and well-spoken Chincub. NUMBER 1 "...YOU SHOULD CARE HOW PEOPLE DANCE IN CUBA" (taken June 19) "PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE FUN AND DANCE HOWEVER THEY WANT. IT'S ABOUT HAVING A GOOD TIME." (taken May 31) Chincub, PLEASE!!, stop putting your foot in your mouth. I can't have a conversation with you this way. So, Richard doesn't want to dance to Timba, I thought people should have fun and dance however they want? If Timba doesn't give Richard a good time does that make him a bad person? Does that make me a bad person for not enjoying Timba as well? Or how about replying reverse-logic here... Maybe you are dead for not enjoying LA/NewYorkican, commercial style salsa? NUMBER 2 "BUT DON'T THINK THE WAY PEOPLE DANCE IN TORONTO IS THEIR OWN NATURAL RESPONSE TO THE MUSIC." (taken May 31) .. Now I'm not sure if you are reading replies in their entirety, but I specifically requested for you to explain what you meant by this. I will do it again. Please tell me; if the way I dance is not my own natural response then who's is it? Furthermore, please define for the public at large what an unnatural response to the music is. If you can't - then stop saying that Torontonians are unnatural dancers. If you do not post a reply I will assume you are in agreement with me in that everyone dances naturally to the music. As well, I will assume that we agree everyone moves to the music the best they can given the vocabulary of movements available to them, and if need be, they will take set vocabulary movements from other genres where the dancer deems it is appropriate. On a side note, maybe you don't understand my style of writing and the questions that I post. If this is the case please tell me so that I may simplify my statements for you and rephrase them in a format that is easier for you to read. NUMBER 3 .. Umm, why is Chincub so scared and prejudiced against commercial Salsa? (please provide evidence of prejudices towards Timba in these posts - I have more than enough evidence of prejudices against Salsa from you that are direct and/or inferred) Regards, Erik June 22, 2002 -- Chincub's response to Rogelio & Richard Rogelio,
Have I heard of the American embargo? I had to live with it for 16
years of my life. I know it is because of Cuban Americans that no
major timba artist has a major record deal or that Timba has never
been given the chance in the United States. After all timba was invented
after the Cuban Revolution. They see Timba as Communist music. Doesn't
Gloria Estafan's husband own the Latin division of Sony music? Other
people probably don't like Timba for the same reason people prefer
Britney Spears to Smashing Pumpkins. This
is a point you should note Richard, if music is popular doesn't
mean it is good. Compare the Classical music sales annually to N'Sync.
Were people really dancing to to Max Burch's violin concerto number
? really. I have to see that. And their dancing inspired him to create
new works? June 22, 2002 -- Respond to Rogelio One of the most important things about music is to
be ablle to understand it, to brake it down and to know the difference
bettwen one another,the knowledge of knowing music !!! I don't mean
the knoledge of knowing all of the bands or all of the songs,when
they were written or who wrote them, I'm talking about knowing music,
you usually know about latin music if you go to music school specially
for Latin percussion and I mean a school, not a salsa congres in N.Y!!!.
June 23, 2002 -- Silence
are the responses to my question: ' I often get the feeling that I'm talking to the wind and no one hears, No one truly listens. ' I have asked for the reasons why Timba music moves us, no one has being able to articulate how do these melodies reach into our minds and souls. Cliches such as ' the great Tito say so ', son montuno, changui, danzones, guarachas, charangas, pilon cha cha chas, do little to reveal why only Timba will put us into a rave trance, throws us off guard and elevate us as no other music does. Because I seek the answers to these questions about Timba does not suggest that I dislike Timba. Nor should you assume that my personal choice of music belongs only to the ' Euro-centric refined ' categories of Classical and Ballroom types of music. Few last points, first and foremost, as a Canadian and as a Torontonian, I do not LOOK UP to New York, or LA, Miami, Cuba or any other place, exclusively for inspirations in dance. This is a world city, Toronto has the creativity and the cultural diversity to dance to our music of choice. Be it Timba, Salsa, Rhumba, Cha Cha, Waltz, Ballet, Jazz, Hip Hop, Fox Trot, Argentinean Tango, Jive or any other dance. Ballroom dancers know, that Rhumba is one dance amongst many others. Salsa, to ballroom dancers is another dance. Salsa maybe all you care about, it is however an inescapable fact that Salsa is just one dance. It is quite okay though to just learn one dance, know only Salsa music, well, maybe a couple more, bachata and meringue and be happy with that. I am not, but you are free to be. Richard June 24, 2002 -- Timba discussion... Richard, "Salsa is just one dance"? You've got it all wrong. There are a number of ways to dance to "salsa" music. Salsa is a term that encompasses a fair number of musical styles and rhythms. Basically, (and this is very basic) there are 5 mainstream variants in NY, LA, Miami, Cuba, and Colombia. Then there are subsets of styles based on amalgamations of the major styles. You can put dancers from NY and LA side-by-side and anyone will be able to tell the difference. There is no standard though and no concrete rules outside of following a basic foot pattern, which is based on timing more than it is on foot placement. In Cuba there are many musical forms and each one has a general dance pattern. Over time it is the musicians who watch how the people are dancing and change the music accordingly, not so much the other way around. Essentially, this is what Timba is: the new music that has come out of Cuba for the past 20 years or so. I guarantee that you have heard music that you thought was salsa but in fact could be called timba. If you want, you should read Chuck Silverman's paper on Cuban music and culture at: http://www.chucksilverman.com/timbapaper.html But nobody's twisting your arm. Josue June 27, 2002 -- Timba and Salsa Rose I just read what chucksilverman.com said, and I would like to clarify that what was invented in New York was the romantic and slow way of making cuban music as Louis Ramirez, Eddie Santiago and Lalo Rodriguez did, but the rest of the music also called salsa played by people like Eddie Palmiery, The Fania All Stars and Tito Puente and Celia Cruz was yet cuban music.Not only Timba has been coming out Cuba, but Son, Guaracha, Mambo, Songo, Mozambique, Descargas. And these ones are my favorities Timba songs : 1- La Voluminosa by Cesar Pedroso. -- Abdel Click
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