August
3, 2002
Cuban
Timba Music Discussion
We will post feedback from
our readers.
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Cuban
Timba Music Discussion |
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May 9, 2002 Last week, I dropped by Berlin on Tuesdays and finally
got to see Quimica Perfecta, which has a great sound for Cuban Timba,
but not always the best for dancing as they are the typical musicians.
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The Feedback.... May 10, 2002 -- Musicians vs DJ Re your comments about Quimica Perfecta and their "great sound for Cuban Timba, but not always the best for dancing as they are the typical musicians". OK, that does it: we need a new controversia! If only to remind TOSALSA that are out here, the "live music lovers". TO Salsa has the best live latin music event listings and we need you to keep it that way... ! There is no controversia til the first person disagrees, so here's the start. Discos suck. Live Music rules. More? OK... Discos are for narcissists. Live music venues are for people who think it's about everybody, the energy of the whole scene. Get you going yet? <grin> To say "the tempo can change drastically and quickly up or down and can throw a dancer off-beat or render you totally inept as their music gets erratic in tempo", okay... but it's all a matter of degree. Otherwise, it could mean anything. But if you find Quimica Perfecta (and you imply all musicians) like that, I'd say you are too used to just doing the same old choreographed moves, to the same old recorded music you know inside out. Then dancing is about you, maybe a little bit a partner, but nobody else. For live music fans, dancing is about interaction with what the band is putting out, "right now". You anticipate, you guess about the "hits", the pauses, etc. Have you ever seen a Latin band where the musicians didn't watch the dancers, and feed off them? It's two way communication at it's best. Hopefully that gets some comments! Bottom
line, don't forget us: there are tosalsa.com fans who'd much rather
go dance to a live band, and hardly ever go to a disco. Keep posting
all that great info about live events! regards Artie. May 12, 2002 -- Quimica Perfecta Dear Rose, May 16, 2002 -- Response to Chincub's - Quimica Perfecta Ok, I've read a lot of the "fine" writing that Chincub puts out and I would like to make my first personal response. I apologize in advace if it is found by some readers to be too offensive and/or humorous. CHINCUB SAYS... #1 ERIK SAYS... *** Please edit what you type ***
"And their way of accentuating the music is to dip during a pause. You have to listen to the music and wait for the sudden changes in the music (bridges) to change your dancing." ERIK SAYS... !!Don't listen to Chincub - Even though it might be inappropriate to dance fast in a slow part of a song or spin in the very beginning of a Marc Anthony love ballad... Do it if you like it.... It's ok, Judge Erik says so. If you're happy and having a good time, heck, spin her twice. And you know what, if Chincub sees you just say... "Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na" CHINCUB SAYS... #3 ERIK SAYS.... That's fine salsa is boring, you know what I think reggae is boring - bottom line - you can't like everything and that's cool with me. But to state that it's the same pace and rhythm throughout the song - I'm gonna have to give a resounding I DON'T AGREE. If you remember from SALSA 101 - Salsa the tomato dip, is just like the music. A vibrant combination of many wild and flavourful ingredients. Please listen to ALL the beats of ALL the instruments. You will notice that YES rhythms and beats do change. Sorry... they do... Oh and again, give up with the whole Timba is more popular argument already. ...Oh yeah, that's that dance that no one knows. Muwah ha ha ha, Regards, Erik -- Let the debating..... BEGIN May 16, 2002 -- Quimica Perfecta, Timba and 'the dancer' Rose. I think your comments about Quimica Perfecta at Berlin reflect more on your limitation as a dancer than on the ability of the group to move an audience. I have promoted Quimica Perfecta at The Bamboo too many times to wildly dancing audiences of all persuasions to not want to question why you would say something as frankly, dumb, as, "their style of music is not catered to the dancer" Timba music is not catered to the dancer? What kind of dancer are you referring to, a robot? One of the myths of timba is that you cant dance salsa to it which, I'm sorry, is nonsense. (Hey, I have a vivid imagination, maybe I was hallucinating that Caryl and Angus were dancing to Klimax and Paulito FG last night when I was filling in for Alvaro C at BaBalu's) Timba has the same clave rhythm and the same basic
mambo as One of the more fascinating aspects of the Toronto Salsa dance scene that I've noticed is that they seem so threatened by Cuban music or dance. Has anybody else noticed this? Rose, I'll make you a deal. You come down to my Tumbao night at Mana on Tuesday, I'll play you some Sonora Poncena or El Grand Combo, then I'll mix it into some Cuban music like NG La Banda or Maraca, and if you still cant dance to timba, then I can recommend some teachers who can show you how. Peace, Love and Diversity, dj Billy Bryans May 19, 2002 May 20, 2002 -- my timba rant It's the assumption behind the statement that was
so smug and thoughtless You should have said that for your particular style
of dance QP (or timba It's simply inaccurate to say the QP's music is not catered to the dancer. It's equally inaccurate (and culturally very stupid) to say that timba music isn't catered to the dancer, it's very raison d'etre is the dancer ... just not your kind of dancer And then maybe if you saw other people dancing to
QP, or timba music, you It is easy to measure the success of a band. If the dance floor empties, there is a message being conveyed to the band. And when it stays empty, the club gets a reputation, and the dancers moves on. Here we go a again, Chincub telling us how to dance, it is too fast, too slow. You see, I dance the way I want to, no one tells me what to dance and how to dance. The band is included in this regard. Dancers pay the bills, we are the customers. Try to entertain us and not preach to us. There is a guy that frequents Berlin and Babaluus, he dances all alone. It is his choice, what are we to say that what he does is improper. If I should choose to dance Rhumba to Bachata, that
choice is mine to make. We are out there to have fun, to socialize.
The band is there to assist in that regard. Quote: I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance Better than Myself... Mikhail Baryshnikov" Richard May 28, 2002 -- Rose's response
to DJ Billy Bryans May 31, 2002 People should have fun and dance however they want. It's about having a good time. But don't think the way people dance in Toronto is their own natural response to the music. THEY WERE TAUGHT TO DANCE THAT WAY. Do you think none of winners of the Berlin salsa contest have taken a dance lesson? Or maybe you think you are innovating Timba dance. Of course, innovation is fine. But innovators have some idea of what the traditional way of dancing is or or have a deep understanding of the music. I really doubt you have a deep understanding of Timba music -- Chincub May 31, 2002 Timba is based on Songo. Songo was inspired the movements of the dancers that Juan Formel of Los Van Van saw. Timba was developed and inspired for and by dancers -- Chincub June 3, 2002 -- Response to Chincub Have you ever heard of Timba? Do you know the difference between Timba and Salsa? Have you ever heard of Songo? I am sure before you took lessons with your ballroom
teacher you didn't know how to dance salsa. Timba comes from Cuba, it is a different rhythm.
Have you ever seen Cuban people dance Timba? People should have fun and dance however they want.
It's about having a good time. But don't think the way people dance in Toronto
is their own natural response to the music. They were taught to dance that way. But innovators have some idea of what the traditional
way of dancing is or or have a deep understanding of the music. I
really doubt you have a deep understanding of Timba music I do not have a deep understanding of Timba nor have I ever claimed to be an expert on the subject. Another point - will an understanding of Timba and
Songo really make me enjoy the dance any more than I already do? Cuba gave us music (whatever you want to call it) and people passed it onto different regions. When the music arrived to those different regions they already had their own local sounds and music as well. These sounds were incorporated to the new "Cuban music", and with further mutations and changes to the sound a whole new genre was created. After many years of evolution the final product is now a stand-alone genre of music separate but connected to its root in Cuba. However, to state that the new music is still Cuban music is wrong. It is different yet it is connected to those first sounds in Cuba. Just like I come from my father and my son comes from me, my son is nothing like my father. There is a sovereign connection and a lineage that should not be forgotten, but what Cubans and Torontonians do now are not the same thing and it is not productive to make comparisons, and assume that they are the same. They just aren't. Regards, Erik June 3, 2002 -- Songa, Timba, Tonga, bing, bong! Chincub, well, I am not sure who you are referring
to as "you" in your post. For that matter, I am very steadfast
in not comparing my dancing to any other dancer(s). Thus, when it
is counter intuitive to me, it is just me I am referring to. No amount
of prodding from you will draw me into a debate about something that
has no International Standard or benchmark. Richard Quote: I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance Better than Myself... Mikhail Baryshnikov" June 5, 2002 -- Timba vs. salsa Rose, I'm confused why you have a hard time dancing to timba unless I'm confused about Timba. I thought that Timba artists included Los Van Van, Irakere, Isaac Delgado, Cubanismo, NG la Banda, Adalberto Alvarez, among others. It's all salsa all the time with this group! I haven't heard the band that sparked this discussion but maybe Billy could come back on and send out another list of Timba artists if I'm not on the right page here -- Josue June 5, 2002 -- Timba vs. salsa Hi Josue, if people would read a little more carefully,
Quimica Perfecta did play danceable timba music, BUT there were times
when musicians LOVE to break into what I'll call "Descarga",
super-fast rhythms in the middle of a salsa turn pattern and renders
the leader incapable of adapting to the music. IF they were playing
in a live music band type of club where it's populated mostly by non-dancers,
then it works fine as you're just listening and appreciating the music
and/or you can dance any way you feel like it (if you don't know any
salsa steps), but if you have a whole floor of dancers -- it frustrates
them as the music can become totally undanceable because it's too
fast for the typical style of Toronto salsa versus whatever the Cubans
use to dance to "Timba". June 12, 2002 -- just a comment Hey there: I don't really want to offend anyone but
I couldn't resist the temptation to write something . Well, all you
talking about people that cannot dance TIMBA, they should learn because
they do not know what they are missing. However, why focus only on
the dancing part, come on be more artistic and think for a moment
that Quimica Perfecta are the ones coming from the land of timba and
they better than anyone know how to play it, and if anyone gets lost
while there is a stop, mambo, bomba o break in their songs and cannot
stand the faster to slower changes, then I am sorry, but they don't
feel the music at all. So Billy, timba is da power. VIVA LA TIMBA
CUBANAAAAA that's all June 13, 2002 -- response to josue Josue, Here are some new albums that I'm playing tracks from El Son de Adalberto - Adelberto Alvarez Klimax have a new one that I havent heard yet, Charanga Habanera have a live double CD out, and apparantly Carlos Manuel is tops right now in Havana (still) with a new CD that includes remixes of some old songs Beats me why many salseros seem to resist timba, my Tuesday night Tumbao party at Mana is still not listed in the TOSalsa club hangouts even though they get asked about places for salsa cubana. Four reasons why it's fun to play timba 1) it's a challenge to mix such multi-faceted music
peace June 14, 2002 -- Of Timba, Quimica & BB and Letting Go I am still learning about the different roots of salsa
and know I have a ways to June 17, 2002 -- Timba, no commercialism please! Rose, I have noticed a tint of commercial biase about Timba, from DJ's. I do not think that DJ's should make negative comments about other clubs and DJ's. To do so is a kiss of death to that individual's opinions about music. So, no commercialism please! We would like to hear from non DJ's, bands, hanger ons and groupies about Timba. That way, dancers can get the truth not some trumped up hype! Richard To Erik, Graham and Richard. I don't know why you guys are in the Timba debate. You guys even admit you don't anything about timba. Richard, if you didn't do your little cute dance when
a Timba was playing, you must have been dead. To Erik, I never said
Cubans weren't taught to dance. But Erik and Richard seem to think
the way "advanced" dancers in Toronto is their natural reaction
to the music. But in Cuba, dancing and timba music fed off each their,
a situation that didn't happen in Canada. Timba originated in Cuba
with the music and dancing. Then of course, you SHOULD care how people
dance in Cuba. Why are people so scared and prejudiced against Timba. I am in total agreement with DJ Billy Bryan. I think because Timba threatens to destroy New York/Latin Ballroom industry (New York/Puerto Rican bubble gum salsa, salsa congresses, New York/LA style dance instructors) -- chincub June 20, 2002 Que Pasa Loco-Issaac Delgado Like Quimica Perfecta and most other authentic Cuban bands, Sonido Cubano LOVES to play Timba. However, since music is business, they have rounded out their repertoire to include just about everything from Traditional "Buena Vista" type music, to contemporary Salsa, Cumbia, Bachata, Merengue, Boleros and of course Timba. David's idea is to "slip" in a Timba song here and there to get people used to the rhythm. They are able to play a bit more Timba at El Convento Rico's Thursday Havana Nights. He could take an hour to explain what Timba is, but as I understand it, the music has the same beat as Salsa, just that it is hidden sometimes. Cuban dancers like to dance to it because the beat is in their head already (I think from birth!) and they like the intricate rhythms that each instrument invents kind of over top of the original Salsa rhythm. To someone not "born" listening to Salsa, Timba sometimes seems very complicated and as if the musicians are confused, changing rhythms and or tempo. Well, in an attempt to steer clear from controversy,
that's my contribution to the Timba discussion. Thank you to all those
readers who support live music. June 20, 2002 -- Timba discussion Chincub, Isn't interesting that when you speak about the genre of Timba you somehow fail to regress into your "it is a modernized version of Son" argument. You are very adamant about describing and acknowledging Timba's unique sound and musical attributes AND you seem very proud of the fact that it was born and cultivated in Cuba. Yet, not surprisingly, you somehow have prevented yourself from relegating Timba under the cloak of the folkoric Son genre. Why aren't you saying that Timba is really Son?? Why are you recognizing Timba's non-Son influences such as U.S. hip-hop/rap and rock?? You refuse to acknowledge Salsa's non-Cuban musical influences and yet you don't do the same for Timba. Why aren't you following your own line of argument? According to Chincub, any musical genre that has the Cuban Son as one of its influences (and was developed outside of Cuba) is just simply Son music. Unlike Timba, Salsa did not develop in Cuba, so therefore, because of Salsa's mass popularity, individuals like Chincub find it necessary to falsely reclaim a musical genre and put the Cuban flag on it and thus take away credit from all the other non-Cuban NY Latinos that participated in the creation of this music. If salsa did not have the mass appeal that it does then I am willing to bet that we would not be having these discussions. Chincub, the only people that are scared of Timba music and artists becoming popular in North America are the fanatical anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami. It is Cuban exile and U.S Cold War politics that is preventing contemporary Cuban music from fully developing in North America. This is one of the primary reasons why no Timba band is signed to a major U.S. label. Have you not heard of the U.S. embargo against Cuba?? Rogelio June 20, 2002 -- Timba discussion Chincub, I don't think that Timba could ever "destroy" the well established (and essential) salsa scenes/styles in LA, NY or PR. It is shaking things up though, which is perfectly acceptable. A lot of people in NY still grudgingly accept LA style. BTW Rose, Timba is growing in NY and there are a number of clubs, as in Toronto, that support local and well established Timba talent. Timba instructors may even be able to crack the well-established leagues of "On-2" salsa instructors. It's certainly not a style of music that is going to go away. It's NY and anything can happen. Josue Rose, Check this out if you haven't: http://www.salsacrazy.com/salsaroots/nysalsero.htm I think it's a very important article. I see more and more new dancers in Toronto trying to acheive the "NY pinnacle", while ignoring all other forms of salsa, which I feel is quite foolish considering the diversity inherent in TO. I think comments made against Timba stem from the NY attitude against anything non-NY. Thanks again! Josue June 21, 2002 -- Why is Timba delicious? Rose, It is a pleasure reading informative articles
on Timba. As a consumer of music, it is my desire to be informed rather
than being preached to. I am not here to debate with, convince, convert,
or persuade any one. ' Ra, ra, hand waving' , and ' I tell you so'
type of articles turn me off and does little to quench my thirst for
knowledge. Dancers feeding off bands and vice versa, it is nothing
new and is definitely not unique to Timba. The magical moment between
a band, its audience can also happen, when Violin Concerto No. 1 in
G Minor, Op. 26 by Max Bruch is conducted and played. June 21, 2002 -- Chincub, Chincub, Chincub Here we go again, I am really getting tired of these circular arguments but I will try and make one last stab at having an internet discussion with the most knowledgable and well-spoken Chincub. NUMBER 1 "...YOU SHOULD CARE HOW PEOPLE DANCE IN CUBA" (taken June 19) "PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE FUN AND DANCE HOWEVER THEY WANT. IT'S ABOUT HAVING A GOOD TIME." (taken May 31) Chincub, PLEASE!!, stop putting your foot in your mouth. I can't have a conversation with you this way. So, Richard doesn't want to dance to Timba, I thought people should have fun and dance however they want? If Timba doesn't give Richard a good time does that make him a bad person? Does that make me a bad person for not enjoying Timba as well? Or how about replying reverse-logic here... Maybe you are dead for not enjoying LA/NewYorkican, commercial style salsa? NUMBER 2 "BUT DON'T THINK THE WAY PEOPLE DANCE IN TORONTO IS THEIR OWN NATURAL RESPONSE TO THE MUSIC." (taken May 31) .. Now I'm not sure if you are reading replies in their entirety, but I specifically requested for you to explain what you meant by this. I will do it again. Please tell me; if the way I dance is not my own natural response then who's is it? Furthermore, please define for the public at large what an unnatural response to the music is. If you can't - then stop saying that Torontonians are unnatural dancers. If you do not post a reply I will assume you are in agreement with me in that everyone dances naturally to the music. As well, I will assume that we agree everyone moves to the music the best they can given the vocabulary of movements available to them, and if need be, they will take set vocabulary movements from other genres where the dancer deems it is appropriate. On a side note, maybe you don't understand my style of writing and the questions that I post. If this is the case please tell me so that I may simplify my statements for you and rephrase them in a format that is easier for you to read. NUMBER 3 .. Umm, why is Chincub so scared and prejudiced against commercial Salsa? (please provide evidence of prejudices towards Timba in these posts - I have more than enough evidence of prejudices against Salsa from you that are direct and/or inferred) Regards, Erik June 22, 2002 -- Chincub's response to Rogelio & Richard Rogelio,
Have I heard of the American embargo? I had to live with it for 16
years of my life. I know it is because of Cuban Americans that no
major timba artist has a major record deal or that Timba has never
been given the chance in the United States. After all timba was invented
after the Cuban Revolution. They see Timba as Communist music. Doesn't
Gloria Estafan's husband own the Latin division of Sony music? Other
people probably don't like Timba for the same reason people prefer
Britney Spears to Smashing Pumpkins. This
is a point you should note Richard, if music is popular doesn't
mean it is good. Compare the Classical music sales annually to N'Sync.
Were people really dancing to to Max Burch's violin concerto number
? really. I have to see that. And their dancing inspired him to create
new works? June 22, 2002 -- Respond to Rogelio One of the most important things about music is to
be ablle to understand it, to brake it down and to know the difference
bettwen one another,the knowledge of knowing music !!! I don't mean
the knoledge of knowing all of the bands or all of the songs,when
they were written or who wrote them, I'm talking about knowing music,
you usually know about latin music if you go to music school specially
for Latin percussion and I mean a school, not a salsa congres in N.Y!!!.
June 23, 2002 -- Silence
are the responses to my question: ' I often get the feeling that I'm talking to the wind and no one hears, No one truly listens. ' I have asked for the reasons why Timba music moves us, no one has being able to articulate how do these melodies reach into our minds and souls. Cliches such as ' the great Tito say so ', son montuno, changui, danzones, guarachas, charangas, pilon cha cha chas, do little to reveal why only Timba will put us into a rave trance, throws us off guard and elevate us as no other music does. Because I seek the answers to these questions about Timba does not suggest that I dislike Timba. Nor should you assume that my personal choice of music belongs only to the ' Euro-centric refined ' categories of Classical and Ballroom types of music. Few last points, first and foremost, as a Canadian and as a Torontonian, I do not LOOK UP to New York, or LA, Miami, Cuba or any other place, exclusively for inspirations in dance. This is a world city, Toronto has the creativity and the cultural diversity to dance to our music of choice. Be it Timba, Salsa, Rhumba, Cha Cha, Waltz, Ballet, Jazz, Hip Hop, Fox Trot, Argentinean Tango, Jive or any other dance. Ballroom dancers know, that Rhumba is one dance amongst many others. Salsa, to ballroom dancers is another dance. Salsa maybe all you care about, it is however an inescapable fact that Salsa is just one dance. It is quite okay though to just learn one dance, know only Salsa music, well, maybe a couple more, bachata and meringue and be happy with that. I am not, but you are free to be. Richard June 24, 2002 -- Timba discussion... Richard, "Salsa is just one dance"? You've got it all wrong. There are a number of ways to dance to "salsa" music. Salsa is a term that encompasses a fair number of musical styles and rhythms. Basically, (and this is very basic) there are 5 mainstream variants in NY, LA, Miami, Cuba, and Colombia. Then there are subsets of styles based on amalgamations of the major styles. You can put dancers from NY and LA side-by-side and anyone will be able to tell the difference. There is no standard though and no concrete rules outside of following a basic foot pattern, which is based on timing more than it is on foot placement. In Cuba there are many musical forms and each one has a general dance pattern. Over time it is the musicians who watch how the people are dancing and change the music accordingly, not so much the other way around. Essentially, this is what Timba is: the new music that has come out of Cuba for the past 20 years or so. I guarantee that you have heard music that you thought was salsa but in fact could be called timba. If you want, you should read Chuck Silverman's paper on Cuban music and culture at: http://www.chucksilverman.com/timbapaper.html But nobody's twisting your arm. Josue June 27, 2002 -- Timba and Salsa Rose I just read what chucksilverman.com said, and I would like to clarify that what was invented in New York was the romantic and slow way of making cuban music as Louis Ramirez, Eddie Santiago and Lalo Rodriguez did, but the rest of the music also called salsa played by people like Eddie Palmiery, The Fania All Stars and Tito Puente and Celia Cruz was yet cuban music.Not only Timba has been coming out Cuba, but Son, Guaracha, Mambo, Songo, Mozambique, Descargas. And these ones are my favorities Timba songs : 1- La Voluminosa by Cesar Pedroso. -- Abdel July 13, 2002 -- Salsa is just one dance and Timba may be the wrong music. I am aware that there are many ways to dance Salsa. The reality of the matter is that, for me and perhaps many others, there is only time and resources to learn how to dance one way the best and watch others do another style and smile. Secondly, if one were to apply the logic that different styles means different dances, we would have Salsa A, A1, B2, C3, Alpha 3 as different dances. Go out into the general populace, you would not hear people talk about Salsa A, A1, B2, C3 and Gamma 6. I dance Salsa, he dances Salsa, she dances Hip Hop and Salsa and so on. We have to draw the line somewhere, that line for me is Salsa is just one dance. And Cha Cha is another dance. Otherwise, Cha Cha would be one dance, Cha Cha Cha is another dance and so on. I do thank Josue for providing that link to Chucksilverman?s paper on Cuban music. I have read it, not just once, but three times. I came away deeply disappointed as Charles B. Silverman has used far too many words discussing history, history of Cuba and the United States, National Pride in Cuba, Cuban Reality and the New Styles of Music, Emerging Cuban Music and Cuban Society but not on Timba. Mr. Silverman is long on Politics and very short on Music. Indeed, I wonder about Mr. Silverman?s training. Was his training in Music, the Theory of Music or on Cuban History. Indeed, if Mr. Silverman is correct in describing Cuba?s new style of music as ?very aggressive, intensely, ryhthmic and extremely danceable?, I am extremely disappointed. Whatever happened to all the other emotions that we as humans are capable of experiencing and expressing? Does Timba music not convey love, romance, sadness, playfullness, drama, lightness, pomp, suspense, stillness at all? Perhaps, as one would suspect, there is good Timba and bad Timba, as there is good Salsa and bad Salsa. The quality of the music, the tonal beauty of the instruments that we hear is dependent on the composer and the musicians playing it. Throw into this mix, the audiences mood and it could be dynamite. In another article on Timba, yet to be discovered and perhaps written, I would like read about how Timba is able to touch our minds on an emotional level -- Richard July 17, 2002 -- I don't think so.... Dear Mr. Aranda, << One of the most important things about music is to be ablle to understand it, to break it down and to know the difference between one another, the knowledge of knowing music!!! >> I agree with you. However I would like to add that it is also important for one to know more than just Cuban music. If you do, your eyes would be wide-eyed to what's taking place musically in many Salsa AND Timba tunes.... << I don't mean the knowledge of knowing all of the bands or all of the songs, when they were written or who wrote them, I'm talking about knowing music, you usually know about latin music if you go to music school specially for Latin percussion and I mean a school, not a salsa congress in N.Y!!!. >> About 96% of your Salsa legends and latin music collectors/history
buffs like myself never went to some purported school to learn about
this music. You live it. Experience it. I even learned how to play
(latin) piano wihtout going to a school. Just as there are many other
folk who never once took a class to learn how to dance to Salsa and
I would put them up there with any featured top Congreso dancers.... The reason for that is because it took on a musical life of its own that never evolved out of Cuba. If Cuban music's roots are from Africa and Europe as you stated than how come it isn't referred to as Afro-Euro Music? Because these roots and influences were rhythmically developed in Cuba. Why does the same not apply to Cuban music interpreted and developed in the United States?.... << Now let me ask you Rogelio what is salsa to you and please explain it musically, and who are this musicians you speak of from N.Y that don't get the credit they deserve, name me a couple?? >> It seems that you think you know how to explain Salsa musically but it's much more than just dropping different cuban musical genres and leaving it at that. As for musicians that don't receive the credit they deserve, I could name you about a two dozen or so but one name in particualr that comes to mind is Luis "Perico" Ortiz. Perico now lives in Puerto Rico but when he was living in NYC he had established a musical approach that back then was considered strange. It was still called SALSA, yet it was different. It had a drum kit and heavy ephasis on the cowbell accent. This was in 1984 and this musical breakthrough can be heard on Perico's appropriately named "Breaking The Rules" CD (Songo 1233), Released 1986. What you hear are ONE of the first attempts at playing what today is referred to as TIMBA. There are a few tunes that are Songo-fied but initially the synthesizers and drums and pop approach are evident to what bands such as Issac Delgado play today. This sound was later emulated and taken to the next step by Sergio George, a former Perico pianist, who added some funk and Hip-hop/Reggae into the mix and out came Dark Latin Groove aka DLG.... << have they said this personally to you? that they are not recognize enough and that salsa has nothing to do with Cuban music???? >> The following people have told me personally that Salsa is much more than just Cuban music. Larry Harlow, Johnny Pacheco, Willie Colón, Eddie Palmieri, Nicky Marrero, Jose Mangual Jr., Jimmy Sabater, Ismael Rivera Jr., Luigi Texidor, Orestes Vilato, Ricardo Ray, Joe Quijano, Raul Marrero & Willie Rosario to name a few.... << It is amazing how many people talk about salsa and its roots and they don't know what is 2/4 in the conga is or 3/2 clave or what estribillo means. >> Knowing what estribillo and what a clef or what an extended 9th signifies doesn't prove that one knows what Salsa is. Take for insance the fact that there exists many musicians who DON'T know how to sight read and can't tell you what the heck an estribillo is and yet wer epresent during the dawn of this thing... << Rogelio I'm a dancer, I have studied music and dancing in Cuba and I'm above average but throuh out the years I have dance in alot of shows and I have met many salsa stars like Victor Manuel, Jose Alberto (El canario), Oscar de Leon and Willie Colon, I have talk to all of them about what salsa is and where it is from, and they all said the same thing to me that there are some songs that could have a mix of cumbia, bomba or plena it depends on the composer of the song but it is really Cuban music >> Sorry if I offend you but I have a tough time believing this. Particularly about Willie Colón telling you that this is nothing but Cuban music when he is the biggest advocator of SALSA not being just Afro-Cuban music. Oscar D'leon has been vocal about SALSA really being Cuban music. As has Celia. But wouldn't you know just some 20 years ago, these two had embraced the Salsa moniker and had made comments that were not too high in the acceptance list of a certain exiled community in Miami. Both got blacklisted. Eventually they ate their words and are now singing the Salsa is Cuban music song. Ruben Blades is another one who has consistently flip flopped on his opinion. Unless you've been under a rock for a million years, you must know that Ruben Blades music ain't neccesarily ALL Afro-Cuban. Yet at one point he too felt the wrath of this community. So much so that he had to wear a bullet proof vest to one of his shows... << Now I have been to N.Y, Miami and L,A and most of it is very commercial, in N.Y I went to the fania all star concert and it was incredible to see them play manicero and the crowed be yelling borinquen!! when manicero is a famous Cuban son. >> Do you honestly expect a community that's not Cuban to yell out "CUBA! CUBA!"? And for the most part if the cowd WAS yelling Borinqune it is because they were egged on by the performers. And by the way what concert in NYC was this because EL MANICERO/THE PEANUT VENDOR is NOT a part of the Fania All-Star repertoire and I've been to the last two FAS Concerts in NYC.... << Now music from N.Y if it is latin jazz, salsa or mambo all you hear is Cuban music 95% of the time for example in latin jazz , descarga or afro jazz all you hear is afrocuban percussion >> Sorry bud, but you're wrong about the Latin Jazz being Cuban 95% of the time. I'm a latin jazz promoter and this Thursday (7/18) am starting a Latin Jazz night and the bands that are being featured do not play 95% cuban music. In fact, the first featured act PAPO VAZQUEZ and hsi PIRATES & TROUBADORS play ZERO (0%) Afro-Cuban music in their "Latin Jazz". Because you play with a Conga or Bongo doesn't imply that what you are playing is Cuban music. You cna play a Bomba rhytm on a Conga. Or a Cumbia on a Timbal. By the way, if you don't live in NYC how would you know what's being played 95% of the time? Did Oscar D'Leon tell you that?.... << in same cases they start with clave of rumba and turns to descarga, or they have bata drums with horns and piano with lyrics from the afrocuban religions. >> Don't even bite from this apple (Latin Jazz) bro. This is some wild imagination you got there.... << If we talk about salsa like Hector Lavoe or Willie Colon, they use cuban music in the 60s and 70s to talk about all of the things that latin people had to deal with by living in the gettos in N.Y example :the song (pedro navaja)if you listen to the percussion from the very begining it is SON >> You're 100%... WRONG. For a guy who claims to know about music, you sure are confused as to what music people are playing. CHEC CHE COLE is a Ghanian song. AH AH OH NO is a Cumbia. SI LA VES is Brazilian. QUE BIEN TE VES is Puertorican. Willie Colón and Hector LaVoe is the worst example you could have used. Half of their music doens't fall into the Afro-Cuban music category. It certainly ain't SON. You would do better by using Johnny Pacheco as an example.... << Now there are alot of songs that start with bomba or plena to give it a purto rican flavour but it is only an intruducttion or a bridge in the song for only a minute and then goes back to montuno. >> If this si the case then wouldn't you say that the song is a Son Montuno-Bomba? How is it still "Puro Son Cubano". Since when is only "a minute" of another element make it part of Cuban popular music? Son is Son but Salsa is Salsa.... << Now sonora caruseles, Frankie Negron, D.L.G, and Eddy Palmiery they are all different styles of salsa music ,some are very comercial almost like pop music and others have that sound of like traditional salsa you could say??well Rogelio all of them use clave of son and they all have the same march of the bomgo and congas >> Not true at all. There are many Cubans who in fact criticize DLG for "jumping the clave".... << la clave comes from Cuba and the bongo was invented in Santiago de Cuba. >> Just so you know CLAVE comes to Cuba by way of Haiti. Food for thought.... << If we talk about salsa like Frankie Negron or Tito nieves, thew are commercial singers everyday adopting more and more the sound of timba espesially in the metales(horns)they do it very slow so it doesn't sound to much like timba because people would not understand it. >> You mean the Sergio George sound since he produced both of them. A sound that he had first heard via Luis Perico Ortiz and not NG LA BANDA. PS-Frankie Negron's uptempo sections of his songs are just as fast as any timba band's.... << If it is salsa like Eddy Palmiery like the song (vamonos pal monte)that son is pure son montuno, in those styles of songs you would hear changui, danzones, that brake into guarachas,charangas,pilon cha cha chas, to be able to hear this rythems in one salsa song you have to know about cuban music all of these rythems have their espacific ways of playing the percussion >> Okay brother man, you just proved you don't know what you're talking about and are just dropping names for the sake of it. To clarify... VAMONOS PAL' MONTE is a Guaracha. << for example one song could have: son,pilon and mozanbique all in the same song and to you this is music from N.Y???? >> No but it is a NYC innovation that all those rhythm are played at once in teh arrangement of the song. Go listen to your old Cuban stock records from the 60s, 50s and 40s and you ain't gonna find too many songs that change musical forms in the song as opposed to Salsa. Juan Formell of LOS VAN VAN has stated this publicly. He even stated that he was inspied by the trombone sound of Willie Colón's early 70s band as was a certain Oscar D'leon of Venezuela when he was playing bass for DImanesion Latina. Why should Cuba get the credit for someone's innovation who happens to be playing otuside of Cuba?.... << if you don't hear them is because you are not familiar with the music,it is like if you were to hear a song that stars with rock n roll then turns to dance music and ends in ragge >> All of which is dance music. What is "Dance Music"?.... << if you know those rythems you could recognize them write!!!??? if you knew how to dance to each of them even better. >> Enroll for one more year in one of those schools you were referring to... << Let me remind you that even the great Tito Punte a Puerto Rican who is the king of Latin music in N.Y said it many times( I don't play salsa, I play Cuban music) >> HE didn't play Salsa. And he was right. However what TP playd has nothing to do with what many others incorporated into their music. Tito Puente spoke for Tito Puente not the entire latin music industry.... << or ask Oscar De Leon he will tll you ( I sing son but I have to call it salsa) >> Oh please. This is an exmaple of biting the hand that feeds you... << Rogelio you are write about the contribution that Latin musicians from N.Y have had on music espessially house and disco music but salsa is Cuban music and even though there are some books out there written by people that think like you it doesn't change the truth >> You need some serious re-programming done my brother... << Rogelio we all have our comments and ideas but mined are backed up by a whole nation with its culture and traditions and by people that really know music and respected. >> I'm sorry bro, but this is just more of the usual flag waving by Cubans that want to preach exclusion rather than accept inclusion. SALSA is more than Afro-Cuban Music. You obviously are not familiar with antytrhing other than Cuban music so you're defining any little new thign you hear as being a Cuban innovation. Salsa is ligthyears ahead of Cuban Son. It is a greater whole than the sum of it's parts. Yes Cuban Music is a huge influence, but it is not the only part of this musical vegetable soup called Salsa.... Rumbero July 20, 2002 -- The Clave is a pure cuban instrument, it is the key for cuban music. Don`t be ignorant saying it is from somewhere else.And please, the trombone was used in Cuba music long before Willie Colon had though on making music. Juan Formell has said he has never been interested in other music but the one comes out of cuba. How come he is gonna listen to Willie Colon music !!!!!! Fania means Fraud, all they did was to copy, and they still copying, have you listened the "97 BARAVO" cd from Fania, they just copied Van Van`s music. You can`t compare the quality of the music made in Cuba with the one made out of Cuba. Have you ever heard the double cd made by "Las Estrellas de Areito" in 1979, dedicated to the Fania trip to Cuba, where they said "if they tell you about salsa, it is a lie, it is called Son". I like Sergio George, I think he wanted to find a middle point between Songo and the romantic style developed in New York, so the dancers and the listener be both satisfied. But, Salsa is whatever, one day is the Son, the Rumba and the Mambo, and other day it is just the typical sound cuban music had in New York. That`s why is not considered a genre of music. And long before DLG used rap, NG La Banda had used it in Cuba, have you heard "La Bruja". If you check the Salsa Hit Parede in www.latinbeatmagazine.com you will see that in hit parede of New York city some band is on the list singing "El Cuarto De Tula", made famous lately by Buena Vista Social Club, an old cuban guaracha, and it is called Salsa. Probably sound a little different, but the rythem is the same -- Abdel July 20, 2002 -- The origins of the clave Cuba's people, their customs and arts were the result
of a continuous process of hybridization. But Cuban music is more
than simply the combination of it's ingrediants: it also contains
unique new elements. An interesting example of the complexities of
this cultural cross-fertilization can be found in Fernando Ortiz's
"Instrumentos de la Musica Afrocubana" in which he attempts
to unravel the origins of the clave- the paried wooden sticks central
to the island's percussion. The clave isn't exactly modelled on the
Andalusian castanets, nor is it based on any of the African percussion
instruments, even though the high musical resonance of its wood (taken
from the trunk of a hardwood)resembles the sound of a single key of
a marimba or a balafon, the African proto-xylophone. Nor does it derive
from the similar sounding ku-cho found in the traditional Chinese
theatre which came to Havana with the Chinese labourers who augmented
Africans in th nineteenth century. July 27, 2002 -- Clave: The off beat rhythm... not the sticks << The Clave is a pure cuban instrument, it is the key for cuban music. >> The concept of CLAVE, not the two sticks, is not of Cuban origin. If you really want to show true Cuban patriotism, all you gotta do is get off your high horse and look it up and come back here and prove me wrong. Otherwise you're just waving a flag for no other reason than pride. It is already documented and can be traced back to Africa. Books written by efitt cubans such as Fernando Ortiz only paint a portrait of Cuba on its own without any cross-pollinization occurring or any other aesthetic in its culture. << Don`t be ignorant saying it is from somewhere else. >> It would do you a world of good for you to research this music and coming back with facts and not petty insults.... << And please, the trombone was used in Cuba music long before Willie Colon had thought of making music. >> True. However, no one had PLAYED the trombone in the manner in which orchestras from the USA had played them. Plus Cuba has never had a strong Trombone virtuoso or musicians that have stood out as compared to the many US & Puerto Rico bands. Unlike you, I can back up my claims with facts. Here's a quote from writer Luis Tamargo (A Cuban) of LATIN BEAT magazine expressing the lack of gifted Trombone players residing in Cuba.... "Although Cuba has given birth to an endless number of prominent pianists, bassists, flautists, saxophonists, trumpeters, percussionists, and vocalists, the undisputed mecca of Latin music has not produced an equivalent contingent of talented trombonists. In fact, Paquito D'Rivera satirically declared once that Cuba has had 'a crop of trombonists almost as poor as the agricultural and industrial index maintained by Castro's regime since 1959.' This isn't to say that Cuba HASN'T produced great Trombone players. But that you can count the number of excellent T-bone players in Cuba in one hand. Plus the fact that the Trombone as an instrument wasn't an integral part of most of your SON or MAMBO bands. Beny More's big band had ONE trombone player in the band. The rest was Trumpets and Saxophones. Still don't believe me? You can read the rest of this article by clicking this link on an essay written by Luis Tamargo on a brief synopsis/histroy of the Trombone in Cuba and latin music overall.... http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/PI/search.jhtml?key=%22LUIS+TAMARGO%22&page=4&magR=all+magazines << Juan Formell has said he has never been interested in other music but the one comes out of cuba. >> Can you tell me where or when Juan Formell stated this? Or is this just you putting words in people's mouths to prove your points? I know for a fact that teh above statement you just made this is a complete lie conjured up in your head. How can I prove it? All you gotta do is listen to the music. That's my proof. Have you even bothered to listen to ANY music by LOS VAN VAN led by Formell? Anyone who has will tell you that they've used Drum Kits. They've used synthesizers. Electric Guitars. Electric Bass (Which Formell plays). What bands are these instruments mostly known in? ROCK N' ROLL my brutha. Did any of these instruments come out of or were created in Cuba? They're American. There is a film called YO SOY EL SON DE LA SALSA where Formell personally states the American Influence. I have him tape recorded saying Willie Colón and Eddie Palmieri influenced his preference to use Trombones. He also claims that a charanga led by Ray Barretto in the early 1960s which had Brass along with Flute and Violins inspired Orquesta Reve (which he was an original member of) and later the formation of his band LOS VAN VAN to use Brass, Violins and Flute. Listen to the tune SANDUNGUERA. Where do you think they got the idea of combining Charanga (Violins/Flute) w/ Brass? Show me one record that came out of Cuba prior to LOS VAN VAN or Orquesta Reve that featured Violins a Flute and a Brass section? I own both the Video and Cassette Tape of Formell talking. But I'm not about to share this with you just to prove a point. But what I can share and which is available to anyone is the music itself. Go pick up LOS VAN VAN records and explain to me how their music is Puro Son Cubano. Formell will tell you this isn't so. You may not believe me but the music, if you know anything about music that is, speaks for itself... << Tell me he is gonna listen to Willie Colon music !!!! >> Very easy. Because it's good? Did you know that Chucho Valdes was a fan and heavy listener of McCoy Tyner, Art Tatum, Dave Burbeck and Herbie Hancock. Are these Cubans as well? You need to look past ethnicity and nationality and realize that MUSIC has NO boundaries or ethnic makeup. Afro-Cuban music is a result of such limitless boundaries. African & European cultures fused as one. Give people more credit. Cubans are not just listening to Cuban music from Cuba. There's many bands in existence that are living proof of this. Ever hear of a group called YERBABUENA? They combine ROCK and FUNK with RUMBA/SANTERIA. You think these guys were listening to Beny More all day? They're listening to James Brown. To Funkadelic Parliament. Earth, Wind & Fire. Do you know that Carlos Santana was an inspiration to the group IRAKERE. Santana plays Rock electric guitar with Afro-Cuban percussion. So does Irakere. You gotta open you eyes to everything and not just what YOU THINK happens to be Cuban. Just becasue you're Cuban doesn't mean you're playing Cuban Music.... << Fania means Fraud, all they did was to copy, and they still copying, have you listened the "97 BARAVO" cd from Fania, they just copied Van Van`s music. >> Since this little troll doens't know anything about anything, those of you still hanging in there reading this thread, this info is for you... The CD BRAVO '97 was originally slated to be called
THE FANIA ALL-STARS: Tributo A Los Van Van. Jerry Masucci, who at
this point was still alive saw the future in the early 90s and realized
Cubamania was on it's way to America. This was PRE-Buena Vista Social
Club. The recording was to include the Fania All-Star Orchestra and
feature several of Cuba's top vocalists of the day including Isaac
Delgado, Lucrecia, Paulito, Yanette Sol, Manolito El medico de la
Salsa, etc. << You can`t compare the quality of the music made in Cuba with the one made out of Cuba. >> Yes you can. To each is own and para los ustos se hicieron los colores. If you love Cuban music from Cuba and think it's the best than that's your right to think that way. But don't force feed it down everyone's throat unless you can prove WHY it's the best other than just because... << Have you ever heard the double cd made by "Las Estrellas de Areito" in 1979, dedicated to the Fania trip to Cuba, where they said "if they tell you about salsa, it is a lie, it is called Son". >> Yes I have. What does that song have to do with anything?
They're making a musical point with regards to what music THEY play.
"Me llamo Son, no me llamo Salsa...". And they're Well I think you're wrong, but everyone's entitled to an opinion.... << But, Salsa is whatever, one day is the Son, the Rumba and the Mambo, and other day it is just the typical sound cuban music had in New York. >> What typical sound is that? Do you live in New York?.... << That`s why is not considered a genre of music. >> Oh really? And they don't give out awards at the Grammy's or at other award shows? They don't have sections in record stores where you can find Salsa music? Does there not exist clubs that cater solely to Salsa? Are there not websites such as these that promote and emphasize Salsa solely? YOu need to take another census on that one... << And long before DLG used rap, NG La Banda had used it in Cuba, have you heard "La Bruja". >> << If you check the Salsa Hit Parede in www.latinbeatmagazine.com you will see that in hit parede of New York city some band is on the list singing "El Cuarto De Tula", made famous lately by Buena Vista Social Club, an old cuban guaracha, and it is called Salsa. >> Because that's what it is identified as my friend? It's played SALSA style. It's a SALSA hit parade. They're not going to make separate categories for each musical form to please the likes of you... << Probably sound a little different, but the rythm is the same >> There's more to Salsa than just a Rhythm. Which is
why as you say it sounds DIFFERENT. Estilo Salsa.... July 29, 2002 About the clave, don`t tell me about books, but songs
and recordings where I can hear it was used somewhere else before
it was used in Cuba. You doubt the quality of Cuban trombone players, but Eddie Palmiery used to work along with JUAN PABLO TORRES, a cuban trombone player. But, any way, you need to realize that the New York
style is different from the Cuba style. In New York they like using
more the trombone. In Cuba the music is based in the percussion and
the piano, most band love using trompets rather than trombones. Even
like that, you can not say that both styles belong to different genres,
since the brass section has nothing to do with the genre but the rhythm
of the music. In Cuba most band that use trombones are the ones that
are allow to travel, since they know people out of Cuba are used to
the trombone sound, because the New York`s bands ares more aired on
the radio than Cuban band, and they are every where in the marked
since the 70s. << Juan Formell has said he has never been interested
in other music but the one comes out of cuba. >> THAT IS TRUE,
AND IT IS STATED LIKE THAT IN AN INTERVIEW TO FORMELL IN www.picadillo.com.
I will look for it, for you Richie. And it is not patriotism. How would you feel if people in other countries start changing the name of the PLENA just because it sound a little different ????????? And of course it will sound a little different since they are in another enviroment. Some people state that Salsa is a mix of all latin music and not Cuban music. But tell me, How come in Cuba in the 50s they play the same rhythm without all that mix of latin rhythm ???? Abdel July 29, 2002 -- In response to Richie This little troll (Richie) is one of those little pawns fighting for politicians as Willie Colon who has been dedicated to proclam himself as a true salsa philosopher for the only purpose of gaining votes of the newyorkers for his elections, without being really interested in educating the people about this culture and twisting the history for his political interest. Willie Colon can`t make music anymore, he just worries about politics and using these kind of games to look like a hero for the hispanic community of New York. Timbero del Monte July 31, 2002 -- Cuban Timba Discussion For starters I would like to point out to everybody how many lies and fallacies have been disseminated by Vladimir and Abdel in this discussion. They seem to have relinquished rationality for vulgar nationalism. All they are doing is waving the Cuban flag in the place of sound arguments and facts. Is it too hard for you two to have a discussion without arguing and lying through the veils of the Cuban flag?? For those interested in the "Salsa is not Cuban music" discussion I recommend they visit this site: http://www.williecolon.com/geocities/deathofcuban.htm Rogelio August 2, 2002 -- Response to Abdel. Adel remember that after PELLO EL AFROCAN and BENY MORE brought the trombone to Cuban music, Castro took over and many of the musicians moved to New York, then in New York people like Johny Pacheco and Palmiery were making Cuban music. Pacheco said that "most violins players only wanted to play classcic music, so they needed to make changes in formats". Most bands had this kind of trouble, not only with just the violinist, but also the flute and sax players. That`why the same kind of music started to sound different. About timba`s band not using trombones and only trompets, let me tell you that the "CHAMPOLAS" they do using trompets, LOS KARACHIS did it before by using trombones, in Cuba before. Some SON bands and SONGO bands have been using trombones for a long time. About Cubans VIRTUOSOS trombonist I said that you can find them.
What happens is that the Cuban music scene is different, there the
name of the band is the one that reach popularity and not the individual
players like happens in some other countries, where sometime people
reach such a fame that is not in accordance with the quality of his
music. You can see it on how repetive are the solos of the music made
out of Cuba, just check Marc Anthony or Victor Manuel music, I don`t
know where are those virtuosos trombonist Richie mentioned, with the
exception of Jimmy Bosh who works real Cuban music as the old son,
rumbas and even cha cha cha and has had the advices of CHOCOLATE ALMENTEROS,
the former partner of GENEROSO JIMENES, Beny more`s trombonist, worked
with CACHAO, one of the creator of the MAMBO. August 3, 2002 Hi Abdel. I missed you too. Did you receive my Christmas Card? I know it's early but that's what panas are for... ;-) << About the clave, don`t tell me about books, but songs and recordings where I can hear it was used somewhere else before it was used in Cuba. >> There are songs that do not have the clave pattern being played
on a pair of sticks but in fact is IN CLAVE. There are many Jazz recordings,
such as Thelonious Monk's, that are in clave. For a sample opf this
you should check out Jerry Gonzalez's Fort Apache Band CD called RUMBA
PA' MONK. << About trombone players, Who was the person that inspired new musicians to play this instrument in Cuban music but GENEROSO JIMENES??, Beny more`s trombone player. >> Generoso Jimenez was a fine trombonist (Who is still alive living in Cuba by the way and has a new recording to his credit. You should check it out...) but he did not make the same impact on Trombonists who play latin music as the late Barry Rogers did. A Jewish American. There were other trombonists playing Cuban music and music in general before El Beny even formed his big band that allowed Generoso to shine. A musician such as J.P. Torres will point to Generoso Jimenez because he grew up listening to him in his environment. Barry Rogers influenced the way trombonists play the trombone in Salsa today. As a matter of fact, I'm going to write J.P. Torres this very question and ask Juan Carlos Formell, the son of Los Van Van's bandleader thsoe very same questions as far as who influenced who. And I'll post their comments here whether it's in conjunction with my views or not. I figure you'd respect the opinion based on facts of those individuals themselves than my own.... << You doubt the quality of Cuban trombone players, but Eddie Palmiery used to work along with JUAN PABLO TORRES, a cuban trombone player. >> I don't doubt the quality. I stated that there weren't many out there as opposed to non cubans who have excelled on Trombone. Plus, the quote is credited to Paquito D' Rivera as he had stated in an interivew in LATIN BEAT magazine and not me. And for the record J.P. Torres never worked alongside Eddie Palmieri. They did one show at Hostos College in New York and one at the Manhattan Center. In both concerts he apepared as a special guest. I don't consider that working with him. Plus, in case you didn't know, Eddie Palmieri's original band LA PERFECTA was founded by himself and non other than Barry Rogers, who played and recorded with him for three decades before his death in 1993. That's WORKING with Eddie Palmieri. Not two concerts appearing in a couple of tunes.... << But, any way, you need to realize that the New York style is different from the Cuba style. >> My brother that has been my point all along. You are pointing out this fact yet you continue to argue that it is all Cuban music nonetheless. Now mind you I'm not saying that New Yorkers aren't playing Cuban rhythms becasue 98% of the time they are. However, you are creating this false imagery that becasue they play Cuban rhythms that somehow they're stealing this music and copying music that was being played in Cuba long ago. All you gotta do is pick up some CD's from back in the day and compare the difference. Well it may be Afro-Cuban Music originally created in Cuba, it's development on a MUSICAL level took place alot more outside of Cuba than within it.... << In New York they like using more the trombone. In Cuba the music is based in the percussion and the piano, most band love using trompets rather than trombones. >> Which goes back to my point about Juan Formell and Los Van Van. You've just said it yourself. The Trombone is or was not favored in Cuba as opposed to NYC. You gotta remember that in NYC there was a huge Jazz influence. Not to mention that in Puerto Rico, the Trombone is the equivalent to the popularity of the Trumpet in Cuba. Puertoricans such as Juan Tizol who wrote CARAVAN for the Duke Ellington Orchestra and even famed composer Rafael Hernandez who was with the "Hellfighters" 365th Infantry Military Big Band led by General James Reese Europe (An African American) played trombone along with a whole slew of other Rican trombonists. Is it any wonder why the majority of your early Salsa recordings have Trombones in them? The NY'ers then influenced everyone else with this element. Including Juan Formell, Oscar D'leon and bands from Colombia and Venezuela like Fruko y Sus Tesos or Dimension Latina.... Even like that, you can not say that both styles belong to different genres, since the brass section has nothing to do with the genre but the rhythm of the music. >> No, but like you just stated they are both two distinct styles. And I believe we should credit each style for the contributions they've made. Cuban rythms have made the largest impact in Latin America throughout the 20th Century and now the 21st. However, you cannot talk about Afro-Cuban Music without also paying homage to the individuals who made it possible for this music to continue throughout history as a constant. You call FANIA a Fraud but without FANIA, no one in the generation after the 1960s continuing to this day would have ever heard of Arsenio Rodriguez or Chappotin, Sonora Matancera or Beny More for that matter. Celia Cruz owes her current status as "The Queen" to the FANIA Empire. She was retired living in Mexico after leaving the Tito Puente Orchestra and was living in obscuirty until FANIA gave her a call and she did HOMMY for Larry Harlow. Maybe if Olga Guillot or other Cuban female vocalists had joined they'd have been just as popular today as well.... << In Cuba most band that use trombones are the ones that are allow to travel >> That's not true. What about Buena Vista Social Club? There are a whole slew of bands like Sierra Maestra and El Septeto Santiaguera that rely soley on a couple of guitars, bass, percussion and one or two trumpets.... << people out of Cuba are used to the trombone sound, because the New York`s bands ares more aired on the radio than Cuban band, and they are every where in the marked since the 70s. >> But that's the fault of the Miami Cuban exile community who wil boycott radio sations who dare play music coming out of Cuba. Don't beleive all the hype about NY bands being aired on the radio as much. I can tell you that's it is a fact, since I live in NYC, that 97% of NYC bands that reside in NYC do not get radio play on commerical radio. You might hear La India or Marc Anthony. Or the young generation like Frankie Negron, George Lamond, Brenda K. Starr and Huey Dunbar. But that's it. You can hear more bands that are not from NYC being played on NYC radio than you can NYC bands that live IN NEW YORK. They don't play Puente, Palmieri, Harlow, Colón, Barretto, Wayne Gorbea, Jimmy Bosch, Jovenes Del Barrio, Orquesta Broadway, Hermos Moreno, Ray Sepulveda, etc., etc., etc. You can hear bands from Puerto Rico and South America and about 8 or 9 Artists based in NYC. Everything else is Merengue, Bachata and Salsa Mierdotica.... << Juan Formell has said he has never been interested in other music but the one comes out of cuba. THAT IS TRUE, AND IT IS STATED LIKE THAT IN AN INTERVIEW TO FORMELL IN www.picadillo.com. I will look for it, for you Richie. >> You can but it would still be wrong. In fact, it would be impossible. His music speaks volumes otherwise. But leave find that interview and post it here.... << The SON as all kind of music continue on evolution. As the RAP and POP take elements from all latin music, Cuban music as well has the right to adapt itself to the new technologies and new patterns, but it doesn`t mean that wont`t be the SON, the RUMBA, the MAMBO or the GUARACHA any more. >> Why not? Says who? Son is not Son if there is another element fused along with it. It becomes SON-[fill in the blank]. That's why there's a genre called Afro-Cuban Jazz. It's not jsut Afro-Cuban Music. There's also Jazz involved. When does it start or stop being Cuban and when does it start or stop being Jazz? Is Rock N'Roll just really The Blues? Or is it something more? Hip Hop culture, in particular the art of Rapping share alot in common with Cuba. Soneros improvise lyrics just as the Rappers do. In Puerto Rico, the entire basis of PLENA is focused upon the lyrical improvisation of the singer. Just as rappers talk about the things they see on the streets or about subjects they're well aware of, so too does it apply to Afro-Cuban, Boricua, Brazilian and other musical forms when they interpret songs. And the one common factor they all have points to Africa..... << And it is not patriotism. How would you feel if people in other countries start changing the name of the PLENA just because it sound a little different ????????? >> How would I feel? Just fine and dandy. What would I have to be pissed
off? Music is music bro. It's not confined to any particualr region
or domain. That's the beauty of music. That it transcends all boundaries
that separates as as human beings. This world would be a rotten place
to live in if we we're not allowed to partake in the beauty of the
culture of the world. Salsa is a product of this world cultural exchange.
I would have never known ANYTHING about Cuba, Brazil, South America
or even America if it wasn't for SALSA music. The music takes you
to these cultures and opens a window you wouldnt'be able to experience.
Some people may not be able to go to Cuba, but they can experience
and perhaps shut their eyes and be transported there by listening
to Johnny Pacheco or even a Larry Harlow tune. Richie Ray playing
Classical music and Jazz in hi Salsa tunes is demonstrating outside
influences other than Cuba. Willie Colón, Eddie Plamieri and
a whole bunch of other msuciains and bandleaders are responsible for
implementing other musical forms into Cuban music. Why couldn't you
name this hybrid something else? Whats I take it you don't know anything about Plena since there are difernet variations of both Bomba AND Plena. Not to mention Orizas amd Sies Decimas and Danzas and a whole slew of other Afro-Boricua rhythms and styles.... << And of course it will sound a little different since they are in another enviroment. >> And therefore, why would I call music that's different from the original and in another environment, Afro-Cuban Music? The roots of Cuban music are from Africa, but do you all it African music?.... << Some people state that Salsa is a mix of all latin music and not Cuban music. But tell me, How come in Cuba in the 50s they play the same rhythm without all that mix of latin rhythm???? >> Sorry papo, but in Cuba they did not play Cuban music mixed with Brazilian, Venezuelan, Colombian or even with Jazz for that matter as compared with the USA bands. Why do you think guys like Chico O'Farrill and Mario Bauza came to the USA? Was it because there was more money to be made in the USA? So how come Beny more never left Cuba and move to NYC? He wasn't into the innovations taking place in NYC that Mario and Chico were. Although, Beny was still influenced by what was taking palce in NYC. His big band was a result of that influence.... -- Richie August 3, 2002 -- Richie's response to
Timbero del Monte << This little troll (Richie) is one of those little pawns fighting for politicians as Willie Colon who has been dedicated to proclam himself as a true salsa philosopher for the only purpose of gaining votes of the newyorkers for his elections, without being really interested in educating the people about this culture and twisting the history for his political interest. >> Was this the best you could do? If I'm a little troll what does that make you coming in hee with a name like that? Timbero Del Monte huh? That's some handle. Where do you live? In the projects? The closest you've been anyplace near anything having to do with those of "Del Monte" is the Tomato factory. You sound like one of the usual suspects who I might've come across in the past on the Willie Colón Fourm or someplace else on the Salsa Cyber highway. Do you have anything constructive or meaningful with proof or facts relating to the discussion? Or is all you know how to do is blow wind up people's asses? You honestly think that Willie Colón will sway an election in his favor by distorting the truth about the history of Salsa? Yeah, uh-huh, you're right. You should have ben John McCain's campaign manager. He might've won Florida if YOU was running things.... << Willie Colon can`t make music anymore, he just worries about politics and using these kind of games to look like a hero for the hispanic community of New York. >> He can't make music anymore? Oh really? How much money did you waste on Cleo the psychic when you called her and asked her this? FYI-Be on the lookout this Christmas season for the guy who can't make music anymore. Do yourself a favor and crawl back to OZ. They need someone to replace the Lollipop Kids for live entertainment.... That Dang Lil' Troll PS- nyaaaah :-P
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