The
Feedback....
January
15, 2004 - Cuban Music
As a
half Cuban...musician (Salsa) born in New York- I was in high school
in the mid-to late 60's. I saw the Boogaloo era (Large involvement
of black-American musicians and elements) flow into the very patriotic
Salsa movement early 70's. What a lot of people don't realize is that
ALMOST ALL OF THE SONGS themselves were Cuban. Every band I played
in and heard on records and radio were rearranging old Cuban standards.
If the NY sound- (Chord extensions, progressions) was not placed over
old Chappotin, Machito, Arsenio lyrics and inspirations (verbatim)
were not placed over the music I could see how one would look at Salsa
as a N.Y. Puerto Rican phenomenon. But this wasn't the case.
The great Boricua musicians I associated with-I'm ashamed to admit
knew more about Cuba and it's music much more than I did. Whatever
I know about Cuba I owe to the Boricua's. These guys IMMERSED themselves
in Tata Guines, Cachao, Guillermo Barretto, Yeyito Iglesias, Chocolate,
and Chico O'Farrill.
I dare to say that If U.S. rhythym and Blues, Rock n Roll and Jazz
were not present on the Radio and T.V. the music (Salsa) would have
even been and remain more Cuban that it is today. I used to marvel
that despite those outside influences(R n'B, R n R, Jazz) quite a
few bands would play and search to be more tipico...Pacheco, Ralph
Roig, Sonora Poncena). There were bands that held on to the Conjunto
style- NO TIMBALES-Pacheco, Pete"Conde", Roberto Torres.
The N.Y. Charanga' s displayed even less originality. They were virtually
carbon copies of Aragon, Sensacion and Fajardo.
I also marveled at the fact that hardly any Bomba and Plena were even
considered- this made Willie Colon and Mon Rivera's "there goes
the neighborhood" the tremendous and original groundbreaker it
was, along with Zaperoko. You have to understand one Salsa Hit maker-
I won't say his name, would listen to Cuban shortwave radio, tape
the songs; and change or update the arrangements.
When the day comes that the embargo is lifted the amount of royalties
due the Cuban songwriters will be staggering. Oddly enough the music
that is in fact a more original N.Y., Boricua innovation-SALSA ROMANTICA
is put down overwhelmingly. I don't like all of it but a lot of it
is very well done. I just feel that there should be more of interplay
as far as radio play balance between Salsa Dura and Romantica. What
I like about romantica is the more relaxed tempo...why does every
song -Old School have to sound like the Players are kicking someone's
A _ _? Slow down a little. Also a lot of the Musicians who criticize
it- can't do it. Remember: Playing slower and swinging is more difficult
than playing fast. My final thought: It's All Salsa- But It's overwhelmingly
CUBAN MUSIC> Que Viva/Love Bobby
January
24, 2004 - Cuban Music Discussion
Well
I've just read this discussion with great interest, and I'd like to
throw in a couple of pennies. First, I'd like to say thank you so
much to all the brothers and sisters, especially those from Cuba and
Puerto Rico, but also other places, musicians who have created and
evolved this great dance music.
One thing is clear, that we all feel passionate about it -- and it
deserves it. And apart from being passionate about it, I am far less
knowledgeable than many of the previous contributors.
It's clear that the music did originate in Cuba, it seems the Puerto
Ricans in New York immersed themselves in Cuban music: however, any
good musician -- and these were clearly fantastic musicians -- imparts
something of themselves, their personality, their experience, to what
he or she plays. So the Cuban music in New York did acquire Puerto
Rican and US influences. This is not necessarily a good, or a bad
thing, it's what happens.
At the same time, Cuban music continued to evolve in Cuba, and owing
to the political barriers, moved in a somewhat different direction.
For me it's a mistake to say either one is superior, it's more a matter
of taste. If you're PR you'll probably prefer the music that has been
tempered by that tradition; if you're Cuban you'll more likely like
something with a timba feel. Of course the music, and the dance, have
continued to spread throughout the world -- it's such good stuff that
people everywhere can pick up on it.
And in the process, other influences have joined in -- look at one
of Rosie's picks for 2003, Salsa Celtica, from Scotland of all places,
featuring tracks with bagpipes and tin whistles. One of their tracks,
Maestro, features in Top 10 lists from different parts of the world.
A specific point: I'm from England, and while it's true that cross-body
style is more popular here than Cuban style, I certainly haven't noticed
people sitting down whenever a timba track is played -- on the contrary,
I've seen it bring on some inspired dancing. But obviously I don't
go to the same places that Ivan does.
On a personal level: I love the music that's coming out of Cuba these
days, but no-one teaches much Cuban style in this part of the country,
so I am mainly learning cross-body -- which still a lot of fun, however
inexpert and anglo I may be :-) Interestingly, at a recent congress-type
event here, there was a class entitled "New York vs. Cuban styles".
In spite of the title, what really emerged was how much the two styles
had in common... Alibaba Sereno
January
30, 2004 - Cuban Music Discussion
Alibaba,
Why do you differeniate between cross body styles and Cuban salsa
dancing? Cuban style salsa dancing is all about cross body leads.
How do you think people change partners in casino rueda? For course,
they don't call it cross body leads, they call it dile que no o paseo.
Cross body leads is not just a small part of Cuban style salsa dancing.
Almost every step, spins in Casino are a variation of cross body leads.
That's why, I always state most people have never even seen Cuban
style dancing.
Common Fallacies about Cuban style dancing
1) There are no cross body leads. See above.
2) They are no taps. Watch Juan Carlos at Red Violin or Orale.
3) There are no complicated turn patterns. Cubans are crazy about
spins and turns. 70, 71, 72, etc, names of very complicated turn patterns.
4) It is not sexy. If moving your hips, butt and body is not sexy,
I don't what is.
5) Cuban salsa dancing is just old "Cumbia" step or what
people call old style Toronto salsa dancing.
Within Cuba, there are many many different styles of salsa dancing.
Some Cubans probably dance similar to what people think is the old
cumbia step. But most people always dance cross body leads and the
outside turn for the women. In fact, most people dance use both.
Casino includes the old "cumbia" step but always the cross
body leads and outside turns for the women that people associate with
New York style.
It is great Alibaba that you recognize most people love to dance to
Timba. Unike your countyman Ivan whose knowledge of Cuban music only
goes as far as Los Van Van, you appreciate Cuban music. I have noticed
that most people who have no idea about salsa dancing are most open
to Timba. Timba makes them move, but they recognize it as great dance
music even though they might not know how to dance to it. The people
who are most relunctant are those in the salsa dance industry who
are more set in their ways. They might lose students because they
can't dance to timba or teach how to dance to it. Instead they are
stuck in the basements listening to old Fania records (which are great),
but I want to listen to music that was made after I was born. -- Chincub
February
13, 2004 - Cuban music discussion
Just a quick response to Chincub: in calling the non-Cuban
salsa "cross-body style", I wasn't trying to say that Cuban
style doesn't involve cross-body -- Cuban dancers say that the cross-body
lead originated in the dile que no, and who am I to question them? :-)
As I understand it, teachers here often refer to the NY/LA styles as
"cross-body" because the cross-body lead is so central to
these styles -- they keep on the line, going back and forth, whereas
Cuban style tends to go around more. Though, as you say, it seems there
are so many styles of Cuban dancing. Every time I've been lucky enough
to attend a class with a good Cuban teacher or teachers, there have
been differences! And that's just with salsa, let alone those who incorporate
rumba and guaguanco steps... -- Alibaba
May
15, 2004 - Cuban music discussion
You guys don't know me from Adam but I am Cuban born in the
center of all Afrocuban music and traditions (Guanabacoa). I also lived
for a number of years in Puerto Rico. I am also a musician. blah, blah,
blah!
Anyone that denies that the roots of Salsa are Cuban doesn't know what
they are talking about. The reason Cuban music from the 50's doesn't
sound like the music played now is the same reason as The Platters don't
sound like Snoop Dog. It has evolved!
Those that deny the influence that Puerto Ricans have had on Salsa don't
know jack either. There were Puerto Rican musicians on the NY jazz scene
long before the first Cuban jam sessions with Peruchin, Cachao, etc.
ever took place. The problem was that they were not playing latin they
were playing jazz and other music styles. It took Cuban musicians to
bring it all together, period! The Puerto Rican musicians jumped in
and made incredible contributions, of that there is no doubt, but Salsa
as we know it takes it's rhythms from the Guaguancos and to some extent
the music of Palo Monte or Mayombe.
Most of it is a take off from those patterns, called a Cuban Tumbao.
It is not Cumbia or Joropo or Plena or even Bomba! It took Ismael Rivera
and Mon Rivera until the sixties to start using the Bomba into Salsa
and when they did you couldn't dance it like Salsa because it didn't
have the CUBAN TUMBAO beat!
If you ever watch a real Bomba being danced whether it be a Cica, Holandes,
Yuba or whatever it might resemble a real rumba at first glance but
the dancing is very different, the intent is different and the drumming
is very different.
The roots of Latin jazz go back to New Orleans when the musicians would
visit Cuba to play Dixieland and Ragtime at shows but after hours they
would jam with the Cuban musicians. They in turn began traveling to
New Orleans. That laid the foundation of Cuban (Latin)Jazz. For the
beginnings of Latin jazz in NY you have to go to Mario Bauza, Chico
O' Farill and he first recordings of Dizzie with Chano Pozo.
Were there Puerto Rican musicians involved back then? Sure! But they
didn't start it! Cubans did!
Why did Puerto Ricans take over in NY?
Simple: 1. There have always been more Puerto Ricans in NY than Cubans
and 2. Castro!!!!! No music was coming out of Cuba after the revolution
except for Celia Cruz, Justo Betancourt, Patato Valdez and a few others
(mostly percussionist) like Mongo, Aguabella, Vilato, Badrena, Peraza,
etc. In the mid to late 70's Cuban musicians shocked the world when
Irakere played outside of Cuba and have done it again with Buena Vista
Social club. without Cuba there would have been no Salsa!!!!! Now go
dance :-) -- Miguelo
May
20, 2004 - Reply to Miguelos - Cuban music discussion
Miguelos: "Salsa as we know it takes it's rhythms from
the Guaguancos and to some extent the music of Palo Monte or Mayombe"
I ask you where does Guaguanco, Palo Monte or Mayombe take its rhythms?
Africa, Spain, France and Haiti perhaps? "....without Cuba there
would have been no Salsa!!!!!"
Without Africa, Spain, Haiti and the Dominican Republic there would
be no Cuban music. It is interesting how some Cubans make other nationalities
acknowledge the roots of their music when they themselves do not acknowledge
their own musical roots. S
hame on you. If it were not for the Puertoricans the Son would of never
evolved and it probably would of died in 1950s/60s Cuba. -- Raul
May
25, 2004 - Cuban music
Raul......try not to lose FOCUS....You're going off in tangents.
Miguelo is confirming and so am i-and believe it or not so do you..The
music crystalized in Cuba. The basic Conga, Clave, sencero,campana rhythyms
emantated from Cuba. Haiti,Puerto Rico, France, and the Dominican Republic
influenced but did not directly create the main rythym (mambo, guaguanco)used
in Salsa-Black Cubans did. Blues has its origins.influences from Africa
and Europe..but they didnt throw it the way the black american slaves
crystalized it. -- Bobby
May
26, 2004 - Reply to Raul's comments on Cuban music
Raul: Are you selectively reading? I never took any credit
away from the Boricuas. Please read my post again. On the contrary,
I think I gave the Puerto Ricans credit for what they did. Bottom line,
the foundation of Salsa is Cuban. The beginnings of what might be Latin
Jazz goes back to New Orleans, when Jazz and Dixieland players used
to visit Cuba to play their marchas at the parks and clubs and then
go out to listen to and jam with Cuban musicians, after a while they
started to invite Cuban musicians to go to New Orleans. I believe the
term they used back then was called Latin Tinge. The sound that most
people would recognize as Salsa is definetely a New York creation. This
is going back to the days of Mario Bauza, Dizzy Gillispie with Chano
Pozo, Chico O'Farril and Machito. They were called Mambos Instrumentales.
The contributions that Puerto Rican musicans made was phenomenal, of
that there is no doubt, but the creativity came from the Cubans. Why
can't you accept that? Funny thing is that the Puerto Rican musicians
that were part of the development of this music do accept it. Tito Puente,
Noro Morales, the Palmieri brothers, Tito Rodriguez, Manny Oquendo,
they were there, saw it first hand and embraced it.
More so, many years ago the exchange of ideas between PR and Cuba was
so incredible that the public didn't know who the heck was from where.
There were tunes that Cubans thought were Cuban when in fact they were
writen by a Puerto Rican and vice versa. Many artist were thought as
being Boricua when in fact they were Cubiche.
As far as your comments on where the certain music types came from.
I don't think there is a Cuban alive who would not give credit to Africa
for those rhythms. I don't know if you were asking or just being sarcastic,
but for your info. Los toques de Santos, which is Lucumi comes from
Nigeria, the Palo music comes from Congo and Angola, the Arara stuff
from Dahomey and the Abacua from the Efik and Efok in the Cross River
Delta of what is now Calabar. All these unrelated groups came to be
mixed in Cuba.
The Guaguancos are the result of an amalgamation of all these groups.
But often times using an Iberian singing style of Decimas. In PR these
took a different turn for the following reasons:
1. The shear # of slaves on the island.
2. The regions said slaves came from. The PR traditions of the bomba
was more closely related to the Ashanti in Ghana.
3. The decimas were sung in PR by the jibaritos as they were in Cuba
in Punto Guajiro but instead they became mixed with the Plenas and the
Seis. And the son which came from Oriente has it's roots in the Sinquillo
(Cuba's national dance) which in turn was a development from the Merengue
Haitiano and the contradanza. Regards Miguelo
June
4 , 2004 - Cuban Music Discussion
Raul: No shame on you! When did I take any credit away from
the Puertoricans? Are you selectively reading? I am however trying to
give credit where credit is due. By your way of thinking then the Bomba
and Plena are not Puertorican, Jazz is not American and neither is Rock
and Roll. Everything that has come down the pike since the first humanoid
walked the earth has been influenced by somebody else. So what? By your
reasoning then automobiles are of African origin because the wheel was
invennted there. You crack me up! Our music has many influences. Still
someone in "Cuba" had to take all that influence and put it
together. There isn't a Cuban that I know of that would not credit Africa
for the foundation of all the rhythms that are part of our music. And
Spain and Europe and later the US for the remaining influences. If Salsa
was created by Puertoricans the how come the Puertorican musicians that
were there when it all began give credit to Cuba for it? Tito Puente,
The Palmieri Bros., Noro Morales, Manny Oquendo, Jerry and Andy Gonzales,
etc. I guess you are going to say that they don't know what they are
talking about either. It is only the later generations of Puertoricans
that think the way you do. Miguelo
June
12 , 2004 - Origins
Cuban Music Discussion. To all: I came across this discussion
whist trying to find out where to get a copy of 'Soy Cubano, Soy Popular',
which seems to be very difficult in the UK. Some very interesting points
and impressive knowledge.... BUT, why the heated argument about the
origins of Salsa or any other 'Latin' music?
Surely it's clear that Salsa does not originate in any one country,
Salsa is just a part of the vast number of sound that have originated
from the fusion of styles from around the globe. Of course, it's African,
but it's also European.... trumpets and trombones came from Europe (although
they may well have had origins elsewhere in the form of simple horns
- I've no idea).
Conventional wisdom is that all civilization began in Africa, so according
to this, all music is African. It is very true that one country or one
area may have had a greater influence on a particular musical style
than another, but it would seem unnecessary to try and say that ‘Salsa
IS Cuban’ or ‘Salsa is Puerto Rican’; surely it is
enough to acknowledge the respective influences?
As for dancing styles, I learned (kind of) Salsa in Cuba last year while
staying at the Instituto Superior de Artes in Habana. I also travelled
across the country for the carnival in Santiago de Cuba. There seems
to be no one style, even within Cuba, different areas having different
styles. For some reason, my teacher was particularly taken with a right
foot break…. which nobody else seems to dance…. especially
here in London. Anyhow, the point is, Salsa is played and danced differently
throughout the world and there is probably no ‘authentic’
Salsa. While this diversity can be confusing, such variety should at
least keep the Salsa scene healthy for sometime to come.
P.S. Does anyone know where to get a copy of 'Soy Cubano, Soy Popular'
in the UK.
July
1, 2004 - Response to Raul - Cuban Music discussion
Raul, If you knew a little bit more about us Cubans you would
have saved those infamous words, man. We do acknowledge and do intensive
research in order to properly trace our musical roots. Of course I am
not going to bother answering your question about where those Cuban
rhtyhms come, because I think your purpose was to make an irony.
The point is simple: many Puerto Ricans claim Salsa Music as their creation,
and we say NO because that music is in essence Cuban (a mix of rumba,
mambo, cha cha cha, etc). To clarify the authenticity issues just make
this test: find out if some African nation or ethnic group has ever
claimed that Cuban Rumba (guaguanco, columbia and yambu) is their creation.
Find out if there are similar claims coming from Haiti and Spain saying
that this or that Cuban rhythm is actually theirs.
If you're confused about what we mean when we say that this or that
rhythm is Cuban, or that it is "ours", you can check a message
posted on July 27, 2003 by El Conguero on this same discussion. Shame
on us? Shame on you and you're ignorance.
Before I moved out of Cuba I used to think that Puerto Ricans respected
Cubans. How naive was I!!!If you go to Cuba you'll hear Marc Anthony
everywhere. People listen to a lot of PR Salsa, therefore they support
your artists, your culture, and they still believe that Cuba y PR son
de un pájaro las dos alas.... Tego Calderon's music (eventhough
it's not salsa) is all over the place too.
I think my fellows will have to be given a warning. There are admirable
exceptions like Andy Montañez, who just threw a concert there,
but I can't help feeling so betrayed for having had this ideal belief
of Cuban-Puerto Rican brotherhood, when in fact many of you hate, envy
and dispise us Cubans.
Salsa is a significant aspect of your culture. It shapes your national
identity and I can kind of understand how some people may feel uncomfortable
with the idea that another nation has had such a profound impact on
the building of that identity that you'd rather say is original Puerto
Rican.
That beautiful Marc Anthony song about "la preciosa Puerto Rico"
turns into a Cuban Cha Cha Cha. Weird, eh? But it doesn't bother us
Cubans; not at all. What bothers us is that when we tell you "Hey,
that's a Cuban Cha Cha Cha", you'll deny it and try to discredit
that that rhtyhm is a Cuban invention. That's the way things are, unfortunately.
By the way, Castro didn't kill Son, and it is arguable whether Salsa
music is a "Son evolved". Salsa is much more eclectic, but
this is my personal perspective. If you want to talk about Son evolved
then think Juan Formell (songo), Elio Reve(changui-son) and Adalberto
Alvarez just to mention a few. -- Anon
July
3, 2004 - Cuban Music Discussion - Reply to Miguelo &
Anon
Miguelo & Anon, I never claimed that Salsa was authentically
Puertorican. SALSA is a musical concept just like Jazz is or HipHop.
SALSA is a concept created in New York largely by NY Puertorican musicians
& other NY Latino musicians as well as Afro-Americans, Anglo-Americans
and Jewish-Americans.
The reason SALSA is a concept is because it fuses the Son with other
non-Cuban based styles of music. Musical concepts are concepts by the
very fact that they incorporate & fuses different styles of music
into a song. Please listen to "Sonido Bestial" or Willie Colon's
"Timbalero" to understand the idea of SALSA as a concept.
Most Puertoricans, I include myself in this category, acknowledge the
Cuban influences and roots in SALSA. We also acknowledge the role that
American influences such as Jazz played in SALSA. There is no Puertorican
conspiracy to negate and deny SALSA's influences.
Where I have issues is when the more than 30 year New York musical history
is downplayed or ignored completely because of statements such as "Salsa
is just really recycled Cuban music". What that kind of statement
does is minimalize and largely disregards the NY Puertorican role in
SALSA's history by saying "Yeah, there was SALSA in NY but that
history is not important because it really is Cuban music after all
and therefore if we want to learn what SALSA is all about then we need
to go back to 1950s Cuba - nevermind the NY musicians because they did
not create anything new". When the NY musicians started to experiment
with the Son, one of the first changes they made was to make the music
faster. They also created a more aggressive, urban-style sound. As well,
they incorporated elements of American Jazz - this was especially the
case at live shows when alot of the musicians would get into their improvisations.
When you hear classic 1970s Salsa you know right away that there is
a distinctive NY sound to the music. It does not sound like soft island
music. Quit the contrary, it is fast and aggressive. The lyrics to the
music also took on a change. Thanks to likes of Colon, Blades, Lavoe
- the lyrics to music tended reflect the ups and down of NY life. Keep
in mind also that there were many musicians who did not stray from the
Cuban path - many were very orthodox but they were not the majority.
Anyway, my whole point is that yes the roots of SALSA are Cuban but
do not end there - that is only half the story. Don't relegate it to
being merely recycled Cuban music because it is not. SALSA's history
is much more complex than that. You need to look at the whole picture
- it is only fair. RAUL
July
7, 2004 - Cuban Music Discussion
Oye anonimo ¿Que bola asere? You are right when you
touched on the envy and dislike that some PR's have for us. But the
key word is some. La gente ignorante (ignorant people) might feel that
way, but in my experience the vast majority of Puertoricans are not
that way towards Cubans. I lived there and was always respected and
treated very well and was made to feel at home there. I have a son who
is half Puerto Rican and my best friend is Puerto Rican, so as you see
I have a lot of love for Puerto Rico and it's people but it does get
under my skin when they try to take credit away from us with the music
thing.
Botttom line is those are misinformed individuals. The Puerto Ricans
in the know like the one's I mentioned earlier do know better. Tito
Puente once said that when Castro is out and Cubans will be able to
travel freely, everybody else was going to have to go to music school
again:-) However there are Puerto Rican musicians that do know, but
try to further confuse people. Willie Colon is one, and by the way I
love his music but he is so PR centric that I think he thinks Puerto
Ricans built the Pyramids, split the atom and invented Space travel
also. ¡Que bombillo! -- Miguel
July
12, 2004 - Cuban Music
Raul: Read your first paragraph on your last post. It says
Salsa was created in NY by mostly Puerto Rican musicians. Mi pana it
wasn't like that. The first musicians to bring that whole sound together
in NY were not mostly Puerto Ricans. They were Chico O' Farrill, Mario
Bauza, Machito, Peruchin, etc. Were there Puerto Ricans involved? YES!!!
But they didn't start it. Actually Mario Bauza was the man with the
vision. He was the one that took Dizzy Gillizpie to play with Cab Calloway
and subsequentially led Chano Pozo to Dizzie. He was the one that opened
doors to all Latin Musicians and took the Latin Bands from the Dance
Hall to Carnegie Hall. He was the one who took Tito Puente under his
wing. Those tunes were called Mambos instrumentales.
Listen to some of the first Descargas on record and I am not talking
about the ones with Cachao and Peruchin recorded in NY in the 40's but
the ones recorded by Bebo Valdes in Cuba when he was at the Tropicana.
That was the first Descarga and it is what most refer to as Salsa.
What everybody did after that was follow. Puente, Noro, The Palmieri
bros. That NY sound that you are refering to came later when they attempted
to play Charanga but with trombones instead of violins to give it a
more urban NY sound, that was in the 60's.
The shunning of Cuban influences from the world after Castro placed
Puerto Rican musicians at the forefront of Latin Music in NY.
And that is why later generations of Puerto Ricans tend to think that
Salsa came from Puerto Rico. Their progress and further development
no one can deny. But if you listen to the earliest recordings from Puerto
Rico during the 50's with Ismael and Cortijo you will know that it didn't
sound like Salsa. It was mostly Bomba y Plenas. Listen to some of those
by Bebo at the Tropicana and you will recognize the sound of Salsa.
Just remember this, the rhythmic foundation for Salsa comes from the
Guaguanco. The guaguanco was a Cuban creation of African rhythms. In
PR they didn't have that particular creation. The traditions were different
rhythmically. Regards Miguel
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