April
9, 2003 - Cuban music
I think
that the cubans should be very grateful to the puertoricans and other
latin people, since they have been showing Cuban music to the entire
world. Thanks to FANIA the whole world know about "LA GUANTANAMERA",
Thanks to El Gran Combo people know about "A LA LOMA DE BELEN",
thank to Pappo Luca we all know about "FUEGO EN EL 23".
All these people have been taken Cuban music where the cubans couldn`t
take for political reasons. Tito Puente, after traveling to Cuba in
the 50`s quit playing the vibe and started playing the timbales as
the best cuban did, Thanks to Tito the mambo still alive !!!!!!!!
Here
I bring some Cuban song that have been played for some other latin
guys:
1- FUEGO
EN EL 23. ( from Arsenio, played by La Sonora Poncen`a).
2-SANDUNGUERA. (of Los Van Van, Juan Formell, played by Oscar De Leon,
El Gran Combo, Roberto Roena, FANIA )
3- PASTORITA. ( of los Van Van, played by Ray Barreto).
4- AQUI EL QUE BAILA GANA. (of los Van Van, Juan Formell, played by
FANIA).
5- HASTA LAS CUANTAS. ( of Van Van, cantado por Gilberto Santa Rosa)
6- SE TE PASO LA MANO. ( of Issac, played by Puerto Rican Power).
7- EL AGUILA. ( of Manolito Simonet,played by V ictor Manuelle).
8- A LA HORA QUE ME LLAMEN. ( of Candido Fabre, played by CANARIO
)
9- MUEVETE. ( of Van Van, played by Ruben Blades )
10- CAIMITILLO Y MARAN`ON. ( of Rosendo Rosell played by FANIA )
11- MALAGUEN`A SALEROSA. ( of Elpidio Ramirez y Pedro Galindo, played
by Eddie Palmieri )
12- SON DE LA LOMA. ( of Matamoros, played by Charlie Palmieri )
13- PARE COCHERO. ( of Marcelino Guerra, played by Ray Barreto y Charlie
Palmieri ).
14- MENEAME LA CUNA. (Nico Saquito, played by FANIA )
15- LOS TAMALITOS DE OLGA. ( of Jose Fajardo, played by FANIA )
16- CIELITO LINDO. ( of Quirino Mendoza, played by Charlie Palmieri
)
17- DEJATE QUERER. ( of Donato Poveda played by Gilberto Santa Rosa
)
18- QUE MANERA DE QUERERTE. ( of Emilio Rios, played by Gilberto Santa
Rosa )
19- AGUA CON AZUCAR. ( of Rozendo Ruiz, played by por Tito Rodriguez
)
20- RUN`IDERA. ( of Alejandro Rodriguez played by Nacho Sanabria ).
21- EL CUARTO DE TULA ( of Luis Marquetti, played by Truco y Zaperoco
)
22- QUE BUENO BAILA USTED. ( Son Montuno of Benny More, played by
Pete Rodriguez and La Sonora Carruseles. )
23- VUELVEME A QUERER. ( son of Adalverto Alvarez played by por Willie
Rosario )
24- ORIENTE. ( of Miguelito Valdez, played by Willie Rosario)
25- ESPUMA Y ARENA ( de Pedro Luis Ferrer, played by la Sonora Poncen`a
)
26- CAUSAS Y AZARES ( of Silvio Rodriguez, played by la Sonora Poncen`a
)
27- CUANDO TE ENCONTRE. ( of Pablo Milanes, played by Sonora Poncen`a
)
28- SIGO PENSANDO EN TI. ( of Pablo Milanes, played by la Sonora Poncen`a
)
29- LA RUMBA SOY YO. ( of ADALBERTO ALVAREZ, la Sonora Poncen`a )
played by
30- HACHERO PA` UN PALO. ( of Arsenio Rodriguez, played by la Sonora
Poncen`a )
31- NOSOTROS. ( of Pedro Junco, played by a Sonora Poncen`a )
32- TUMBA LA CAN`A. ( of Rudy Calzado, played by la Sonora Poncen`a)
33- AHORA SI. ( of Marcelino Guerra, played by la Sonora Poncen`a
)
34- ROMPE SARAGUEY. ( of Feliz Chappottin, played by Hector Lavoe
)
35- YO ME QUEDO. ( of Pablo Milanes, played by Tony Vega )
36- PARA VIVIR. ( of Pablo Milanes, played by Gilberto Santa Rosa
)
37- MI CUERPO. ( of Juan Carlos Alfonso, DAN DEN, played by Giro )
38- LA GUAGUA. ( of Candido Fabre, played by Celia Cruz )
39- PEGAITO PEGAITO. ( of Manolin, played by Olga Tan`on)
40- UN MONTON DE ESTRELLAS. ( of Polo Montan`ez played by Gilberto
Santa Rosa. )
41- SOY NORMAL, NATURAL. ( of Van Van, played by Alex Leon )
42- DE QUE CALLADA MANERA. ( of Pablo Milanes, played by la Sonora
Poncen`a )
43- AMOR MIO NO TE VALLAS. ( of Sara Gonzales, played by Gilberto
Santa Rosa )
44- FUEGO A LA JICOTEA. ( 1958) of Rosendo Ruiz, played by.. (I can`t
recall).
45- LA RUN`IDERA. ( played in Cuba by REVE, played by Nacho Sanabria
outside Cuba.
46- SE TE PASO LA MANO. ( of Issac Delgado, played by Puerto Rican
Power ).
47- SERA QUE SE ACABO. ( of Cesar Pedroso,played by FANIA ).
48- A LA LOMA DE BELEN. ( old Cuban song played by El Gran Combo)
49- TE REPETISTE. ( of Issac Delgado played by Jose Alberto "
EL CANARIO )
51- TE REGALARE. ( of Jose Luis Cortes, played by Jhonny Rivera ).
52- SUN SUN BABAE. ( de Rogelio Martinez (from the 50`s) played by
Oscar De Leon).
53- EL BAILE DEL SUAVESITO. ( of Ignacio Pin`eiro, played by Oscar
De Leon ).
54- LOCAS POR EL MAMBO. ( of Benny More, played by Carolina Lao.
54- JUANCITO TRUCUPEY. ( of Luis Kalaff, played by Oscar De Leon).
55- SABROSONA. ( of E.Egues- R.Lay, played by Orquesta Harlow).
56- TU TRANQUILO. ( of Juan Formell, played by Roberto Roena ).
- LAMENTO DE UN GUAJIRO : Old Cuban song played by Fania.
- CALCULADORA : of Rosendo Rosell,played by Oscar De Leon.
- MATA SIGUARAYA : of Lino Frias,played by Oscar De Leon.
- EL AGUA DE BELEN : of E.Davidson, played by Fania.
- "Y TODAVIA NO" of Manolito Simonet, played by Johnny Ray
.
-"PROFESOR DE 10 mo GRADO" of Issac Delgado played by Cano
Estremera.
-"ESPERANDO LLAMADA" of Los Van Van played by Willie Rosario.
-"COMO PANTERA" of N.G La Banda played by Cano Estremera.
Quitate Tu " of Orquesta Sublime played by Fania.
- AGUA DEL CLAVELITO
- EL JAMAIQUINO.
- COMO MANGO.
-- Pury
April
10, 2003 - Cuban music
I would
like to share with you all a comment made by Tito Puente on an interview
made by Steven Loza on the book "TITO TO PUENTE AND THE MAKE
OF LATIN MUSIC".
<<
Steven Loza: How did this thing mix ? You Know, the Puerto Ricans
and the Cubans ? Did it come together very easily ? What was that
all about ?
Tito
Puente: It came very (easily) because the Puerto Ricans are very good
musicians too. The Cubans have their own style of music; that`s what
we play, really. We`re not playing Puerto Rican music, because Puerto
Rican music is la bomba, la plena; they had their own typical music
in the island...>>
On another
question Tito responds :
<<
As I grew older I became a big-band leader, (and)
then I catered to all kinds of people, but I really played Cuban music
- which I still play, because that`s the good dance music : the mambo,
the guaguanco, the cha-cha-cha, the guajira, all that kind of music.
>> page 30.
There
is antoher comment by Mongo Santamaria in the Latin Beat Magazine
of this month (april)
Mongo:
" I played with Tito puente the same compositions that, now,
are called salsa. Celia singed in Cuba, in the 40`s and the 50`s,
Facundo, Bemba Colora, El Yerbero Moderno, all those songs that if
you all want to call them salsa, it is ok, but it is really afrocuban
music. In a concert people play son, guaguanco o guajira, but they
don`t identify each rhythm, everything is called salsa, even a merengue.
How come that is possible ? >>
It doesn`t
matter how many Puerto Ricans are playing salsa, it`s still Cuban
music. A lot of Puerto Ricans are playing merengue, but it doesn`t
make the merengue a Puerto Rican music, the merengue still Dominican.
If somebody
want to find out about the TIMBALES palyed by old Cuban band I recommend
to check the book written in 1952 called "Los Instrumentos De
La Musica Afrocubana" by Don Fernando Ortiz, and you can even
see a picture made in 1927 of a Cuban band with the timbales. Or find
out about "Pascualito" an old and great Cuban timbalero.
-- Pury
April
10, 2003 - Cuban music discussion.
Here
is some words by "LA GUARACHERA DEL MUNDO" Celia Cruz about
the salsa thing issue.
"Today
we call it Salsa, but before we use to call the music what it was,
rumba, guaracha, guaguanco, mambo, cha-cha-cha, guajira, and bolero.
These are the folkloric rhythms of my country. These are the different
rhythms that exist in Cuba. These are the styles that I use to sing
with La Sonora Matancera..... Neither can we deny that many of these
bands were rummaging through many songs that, I myself didn't know,
were Cuban in origin. In New York many earned a living doing this.
After a few decades the term salsa was coined. Even though no one
can really claim they invented the term Salsa, the first time I heard
it was in Venezuela. It was a local broadcaster by the name of Danilo
who in 1967 invited me to his radio show titled La Hora De La Salsa.
The music he played was performed by La Sonora Matancera, Celio Gonzalez,
and other Cuban groups. However, no one can deny that the music was
heavily supported by Puerto Rican musicians. In fact, today the term
Salsa was adopted by the bands in Cuba because, to play "Cuban
music" was deemed old. I'm certain that this bickering will continue,
but those who know, including those who are creating the argument,
know what the music is and where it comes from. I don't argue about
that because we are all earning a living from performing the music.
Remember that El Rey, Tito Puente, would get upset whenever anybody
referred to Cuban music as Salsa. He would tell you ‘Salsa is
something you eat...this is Afro-Cuban music’, and he was Puerto
Rican."
Tito
Puente, also, said:
<<
There is no salsa music. They just put that word to the music that
we were doing all the time, the mambo, the cha-cha-cha, the merengue:
they called it "salsa". Salsa is a condiment of food. You
eat salsa. You don`t listen to it. You don`t dance to it, you know?
It became a popular word and all American people..."Tito could
you play me a salsa ?" So I said, "Do you have a headache?
I`ll give you an Alka-Seltzer. You know something like that...Salsa
is actually the condiment that you put on food. "Salsa tomate",
tomate sauce, spaghetti sauce. The mexicans have been using the world
"salsa" for centuries. Mexican salsa all the time, the hot
salsa, you know, for tamales. So they gave it to the music, you know
to give it heat. It makes it exciting. It`s easy for everybody to
say. You know even in my concerts I always tell everybody, "Now
you know, we`re gonna play for you salsa!" "OHHH! It`s the
same mambo I`ve been playing for forty years." FROM "TITO
PUENTE AND THE MAKING OF LATIN MUSIC" -- Valerio
April
11, 2003 - Cuban music.
To those
people who want to diminish the Cuban Music and refuse to recognize
the truth or to whom it may concern.
How come
is it possible someone can say old cuban music bands didn`t have timbales
???????
I`m pretty
sure you haven`t heard those old bands, if that guy can`t recognize
a timbal`s sound listen to the singer of "ORQUESTA DE JULIO GUTIERRES",
in the 40`s, and hear how he mentions, in one of the songs, the timbal
and talk to the timbal player.
I would
like to inform you that I am a Cuban-American, born in USA and who
is extremely proud of Cuban culture, musical heritage and his people’s
economic accomplishments in the United States. According to Mr. Earl
Shores, an American writer, no other group of newcomers in the United
States has ever moved so quickly from rags to riches.
I’m
writing this letter because I am extremely upset over the total disinformation
and lack of respect shown by other Latin ethnic groups, towards the
plagiarism of Cuban culture and specially music. There are few others
Latin-American countries (not to mention by name) has also taken advantage
of cultural and musical censorship the U.S has imposed on Cuba since
the early sixties to reap the benefits of our creative people. I don’t
mind people from others countries play our music, however, I have
a serious problem when I hear this imitators referring to our music
as so called “LATIN-MUSIC, SALSA,” or playing Puerto Ricans
as theirs.
Cuba,
in case you are not aware, has influenced a large part of the Western
World, musically.
Apparently,
this seems to bother a lot of people of different ethnicities; proof
ot this is that every time a Cuban rhythm is played on Spanish radio,
or TV., there always seems to be some type of sinister plot by the
Spanish media to not link, the name of Cuba with the rhythm played.
Today, all over Latin-America, people have adopted Cuban slang, and
Cuban way of dance, to enrich their poor musical repertoire, but never
is there any homage or recognition given to the name of Cuba for these
contributions.
Recently,
I washed the Puerto Rican parade and I was disgusted to hear Mrs.
Gilda Miros the anchor woman who narrate the parade (1992) WPIJ channel
11 continuously, refer to Rumbas, cha-cha-cha, and Mambos, that were
being played by various bands on the parade floats as music from Puerto
Rico as it happen in every parade, every year. It is disinformation
like this that is going to hurt the youth of Puerto Rico, who are
been given a false culture and sense of identity.
On the
same day or the Puerto Rican parade, one of the chiefs plagiarists
of Cuban music, like Larry Harlow, as well Rafael Ithier, had the
“galls” on national TV. to say that he was seriously influenced
by Puerto Rican music and that Puerto Rico without a doubt was a Capital
of the Mambo, cha-cha-cha.
This
statement was made by an individual who literally, slept with a short
wave radio next to his ears, so that he could steal nearly every composition
that some Cuban created.
Puerto
Ricans has to be very grateful to Fidel Castro of no competing with
Cubans in the musical and tourist world and last but not least, their
newly acquired culture.
Many
people who read this letter will say that this is divisive, racist
and offensive; but it is myself and my fellow Cubans who should be
offended by the continuous disinformation and censorship of certain
ethnic groups, have towards any Cuban musical accomplishment.
At one
Fania All Star concert at Madison Square Garden, I observed how this
guy Sanabria paid tribute to every country in Latin America with the
exception of Cuba.
The imitators from other Hispanic countries are so unhappy with their
music, that on stage they try to talk like Cubans, when they play
“Salsa”...just to be in tune with the Cuban music.
These
imitators when they are interviewed by a non Cuban reporter and asked
the origin of the music they are playing, they seem to get amnesia
and say...it’s is music from Africa or from the barrios of N.Y.C.
Before
I sign off let me ask this: Why whenever a non-Cuban musician is asked,
who has influenced then musically, the answer is usually like this
...Cortijo, Ismael Rivera, El Gran Combo etc. etc. then I ask, ...WHO
INFLUENCE THESE INDIVIDUALS...?? -- Karioca
April
11, 2003 - About the TIMBALES in Cuban Music
I really
can`t believe that people without any knowledge about Cuban music
is coming here with such a comment. (I say that because someone post
here that old cuban bands didn`t have timbales).
I just
went to descarga.com and got this cd`s review to prove he is all wrong
: (just read the name of the songs and find "A GOZAR TIMBERO",
the timbal player were Marcelino Valdes and Guillermo Barreto).
Israel
"Cachao" Lopez
Cachao Y Su Ritmo Caliente: From Havana To New York
CD (Caney 501),
Reviews:
"Tracks 13-20 can be found nowhere else. A real find!" (Phil
Riggio 98/99 Catalog) "Not only is Cachao the godfather of the
Cuban bass, but his influence on the way Latin music is played today
is enormous. I really believe that every salsa or Latin jazz band
today should pay royalties to this great musical master of our time.
Not only does this CD capture many of the original 1957 legendary
descarga sessions with other Cuban master musicians, but it also includes
1961 sessions recorded in New York City with trumpeter Clark Terry
and reed player Jerome Richardson providing jazz overtones."
(Jose Rizo 96/97 Catalog) "We were very happy when this was released
on CD. All Latin musicians should listen to this religiously. These
musicians were the best. You have to listen to Tata Güines (congas),
Guillermo Barretto (timbales), Nino Rivera (tres) and Cachao (bass).
When I play this for people they are blown away by how much fire these
guys play with, and yet they're very relaxed. That's great control!
This CD contains the classic 'Descargas En Miniature,' and some great
sessions with top jazz players like Clark Terry (trumpet) recorded
at a later date." (Poncho Sanchez and Ramon Banda 96/97 Catalog)
Song
titles include:
Guajeo
De Saxos 2:19
Estudio En Trompeta 2:17
Cogele El Golpe 2:39
Goza Mi Trompeta 2:55
Descarga Cubana 3:01
A Gozar Timbero 2:57
Trombon Criollo 3:06
Malanga Amarilla 3:17
Controversia De Metales 3:11
Pamparana 2:34
Sorpresa De Flauta 2:51
Oye Mi Tres Montuno 2:39
Pa-Pa Bajo 2:24
Escucha, Dos Trompetas 2:49
Mungo, Mungo, Baby 3:13
Que Paso 2:50
Chunga, Uhuruh, Chunga 2:10
A Bailar Guajira 2:29
Tanga, Pa Katanga 2:16
Caballos Locos 2:06
Musicians
include:
On Cuts 1-12, The Players Are:
Israel López "Cachao" Bass
Guillermo Barreto Tímbales
Tata Guines Tumbadora
Rogelio "Yeyo" Iglesias Bongos
Gustavo Tamayo Guiro
Alejandro "El Negro" Vivar Trumpet (2,4,6,9,10)
Generoso "Tojo" Jimenez Trombone (7,9)
Orestes Lopez Piano (3,7,8,9,l0)
Emilio Peñalver Tenor sax (1)
Virgilio Lisama Baritone sax (1)
Richard Egues Flute (11)
Niño Rivera Tres-guitar (12)
On Cuts 13-20 The Players Are:
Israel Lopez "Cachao" Bass
Marcelino Valdes Timbales
Antonio "Chocolate" Diaz Mena Tumbadora
Jose Mangual Bongos
Clark Terry Trumpet
Jerome Richardson Flute, piccolo tenor and baritone sax
-- Pury
April
12, 2003 - (Cuban music in toronto)
That
is not son or salsa, the son is based on the rhythm of the claves
and bongoes and triple, these are cuban-origen instruments that were
developed much later in Cuba. Besides, before the son was the changui
!!!!!! -- Valerio
April
16, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion
Dear
Chincub and Mechy (an astounding tag team )
Sorry
for the delay in continuing our discussion. I had to so some more
homework for a few quotes:
Just
to help you guys with your learning, here are the books and websites
I consulted:
Gerard,
Charley (1998). Salsa: The Rhythm of Latin Music (Performance in World
Music Series, No. 3).
Steward,
Sue (1999). Salsa: Musical Heartbeat of Latin America. Thames and
Hudson. ISBN 050028153X.
www.salsa-merengue.co.uk
www.salsamagazine.com
Ok, here
we go….
Mechy
wrote:
"Maybe
salsa is from New York or from everywhere as you said. But saying
that Cuba didn't have big bands is just ridiculous and wrong"
Just
to clarify, nowhere did I write Cuba had no big bands. I was comparing
sounds of New York and Cuba. I need to clear up my use of the term
big band. Sorry, I should have said Big Band (with capitals), just
to make it clear that I was referring to a type of jazz sound. With
narrow minded world views like yours, it was perhaps naïve of
me to expect this knowledge from you.
What
we know as salsa today originated in El Barrio in New York –
Spanish Harlem. The movement was called Nu Yorican and was a mixture
of Puerto Rican, Cuban and yes…..Big Band jazz sounds. This
was the sound of Fania Records, championed by artists such as Willie
Colon and a response to the sounds of Rock and Roll (the Beatles and
the Rolling Stones), which were killing Latin music. Salsa gave the
Latin world an identity again.
Izzy
Sanábria worked at Fania Records, which was then regarded as
the Latin Motown. He was one of the big players in the New York Latin
music scence. Here is a quote from the man himself:
"Salsa
is Latin Soul. Salsa is Flavor and Spice. Salsa es Ritmo! Rhythm,
the basis of Salsa. African slaves brought their rhythms to the Caribbean,
mixed with the Indian, European melodies, Spanish lyrics and gave
birth to Latin music. The sons and daughters came here, mixed in the
high energy of New York, the influence of Jazz, added in some brass,
and Salsa was born!" (I always added that Salsa’s rhythmic
origins were Cuban, but that it was the young Puerto Ricans that developed
and kept it alive in New York City).
The cradle
of Salsa as we know it today was New York city during the 1970s. The
reason most Hispanic music historians have such little information
of the 1970s (and its movement) is because the Spanish media completely
ignored that era. More on this topic later.
First,
I'm quite sure I know a great deal less about the histories of our
music (or music in general for that matter) than most of those writers
do. However, if you weren't a part of the music and cultural movement
in New York during the 70s, you cannot feel or fully understand what
it was like to paint an accurate picture with the right information.
I lived it, I helped create it and was in the center of it all seven
days a week. So no matter how well they may have researched this period,
it is still second-hand information. There were just too many details
that even those in the music industry weren't aware of. Musicians
for example were busy creating the music but played no role in promoting
the name Salsa. In fact, as the term Salsa started to catch on, most
serious musicians resented and resisted having their music labeled
as such."
Just
to set the record straight, I never claimed to have coined the word
Salsa, or used it first (I’m too young). My claim to fame is
being first to see the potential of the word as a marketing tool to
promote New York’s Latin music (and hopefully my magazine "Latin
NY" along with it). I had always felt that "Latin Music"
was too broad a term (for the sound being created by Latino New Yorkers)
and that it needed its own name like Jazz, Rock & Roll, Disco,
R&B, Blues, etc., in order to define and identify it as an entity
unto itself. A new name and image was needed that people could get
excited about and be able to relate to. Salsa was easy enough for
anyone to pronounce and, remember. I thought Salsa was just perfect."
(from
www.salsamagazine.com)
You see
Chincub, the salsa we know today has roots in Cuba and Puerto Rico
but was born in New York under the influence of jazz. Fania Records,
artists such as Eddie Palmieri, Willy Colon and Ruben Blades, radio
stations and clubs in New York kept salsa going.
I need
to address a few of your comments:
You write:
‘Certainly,
the great Puerto Rican musicians in New York and changed the sound
and we might even say innovated the sound.’
Thanks
for backing me up. Couldn’t have said it better.
In one
of your earlier fabulous arguments you wrote:
‘I
mean would a lot of Canadians or other Latinos go to Peruvian or Chilean
music nightclubs?’
You argue
against yourself here. No they wouldn’t because those are very
local sounds which require you growing up with them to really appreciate
them. It would be like me asking you to get into Irish folk music,
which has a much narrower range of influences and is therefore less
accessible. Salsa IS pan-latin, whether you like it or not. With so
many latin and jazz influences, how can it not appeal to a wide audience?
People listen to music they can associate with in some way –
a sound, a message, lyrics…...
Another
from you:
‘The
reason why Cuban music is not popular is because it hardly heard’
Not true.
Just to clarify, my knowledge (and record collection) goes beyond
Buena Vista. We have lots of Cuban bands who come to London and the
shops are stacked full of Cuban artists. Some DJs play it…but
not many….because people prefer New York and Puerto Rican sounds.
Why….it has wider appeal because of wider influences.
You asked
me:
"You
say salsa is a fusion of different music styles. Which music styles?
every music style? opera? Chinese opera? Do you mean all music styles?
Is Reggae Salsa?"
I said
it was a fusion of styles, not a fusion of all styles, plus I said
it was a fusion of Puerto Rican, Cuban and jazz sounds. I don’t
recall mentioning chinese opera or reggae…
Finally,
you wrote:
"Orishas
are a bunch of Cubans who live in Paris !!"
And you
are a Chinese Cuban living in Canada! Does that diminish your contribution
in any way?? I was using Orishas to show that some of the most cutting
edge music occurs when bands and sounds move out their original settings
and feed off other sounds and cultural influences. Isn’t that
how salsa started in the first place?? it's a shame your multi-cultural
background hasn't shaped your thinking a bit. Is there some anti-US
venom which is laeding to hijack salsa for political reasons?? You
wouldn't be the first.....
Chincub
and Mechy, you have both agreed that Puerto Rican musicians had a
massive influence and that modern salsa can be traced to New York.
You have even made my arguments for me sometimes. Please stop nit-picking
over the fact that I compared New York and Cuban salsa and said New
York had a big band sound. Listen to Spanish Harlem Orchestra to see
what I mean. I didn’t say Cuba had no big bands. Please stop
assuming that I base my entire knowledge of Cuban music on Buena Vista
social club….I had Los Van Van albums years before. Go away
and read some books, check out a few websites and learn to appreciate
salsa for the pan-latin phenomenon it is. Try to understand that music,
like culture, flows in many ways and in many directions. You’ll
all be happier people for it and stop making personal attacks. I've
noticed that in whatever forums you debate in, you make inflammatory
comments. It is always good to challenge people’s views, but
only when you have something worth saying….
Signing
off one last time, Ivan
April
17, 2003 - Cuban music discussion (response to Ivan)
Vaya
Ivan you hit it right on the nose Papa. You & Izzy Sanabria are
correct when you say that you had to live it & experience NYC
Back in the 60's & 70's to fully understand Salsa. I'm also a
product from that era. No book in the world or historian can capture
what occured back then. In fact there are many Cubans living in El
Barrio/Spanish Harlem that know Salsa is from NYC. They would never
denied NY/PR the credit it desrves & rightfully so. My Cubanos
hermanos would also let everyone know that it's roots are from Cuba
& rightfully so. **Ivan your post belongs in the history of Salsa
section. So do me & you & the salseros a favor & re-post
it on the history of Salsa section since this is a Cuban discussion
section.
"Somos Iguales", By the Spanish Harlem Orquestra.
El Lapiz "Salsero De Verdad"!!!
May
26, 2003 - Cuban music
Hey
guys, wow, some heavy discussion there. Anyway, I just want to put
in my two cents. I love Cuban music and am a bit sad that in most
clubs you hear almost no Cuban. I am a an African Canadian and I live
in Japan. I deejay at sasla parties occasionally and always put on
my fare share of Timba. I have been fortunate enough to see some great
concerts here in Japan. I saw Bamboleo, Charanga Habanera twice, Haila
with Cubanismo, Isaac Delgado, and Adalberto Alvarez all in Japan.
At the moment I am listening to the new Yumuri, Issac, Cesar Perdoso`s
collection, Adalberto Alvarez, La rumba soy yo compilation, Aramis
Galindo, Mayito y su Trabuco, and of course Los Van Van etc. BTW how
is the Clan 537 CD? Generally is is fairly easy to find Cuban music
in Japan, but I can`t find thise one. Also lemme know of some other
current must have Cuban releases -- Jimmy
June
24, 2003 -- Cuban Music Discussion
I just
discovered this site by accident the other day, and I must say I find
it extremely helpful for the Salsa-loving community. However, I must
confess that I was shocked when I saw the hot debates going on here
about Cuban and Non-Cuban Salsa, as well as dance styles, the Timba
issue...
I am Cuban, born and raised in the Island, and now I live in Canada.
I would like to tell everyone the things a Cuban thinks when he or
she reads these debates you're having. Concerning music: Normally,
Cubans react with shock when someone tells them that Salsa was not
created by them. The term "salsa" is understood by Cubans
as the name that Puerto Ricans gave to their version of Cuban Son.
In the same fashion, it is common knowledge in Cuba that the so-called
Puerto Rican "salsa erotica" is nothing but a "bolero-son".
Cubans have always recognized Salsa as their music. It is so funny
to see the pro-New York-origin defenders saying that the creation
of Salsa began in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. Now my big question is:
What happened in 50's, 40's, and 30's??? The Cuban musicians dominated
the latin music market in the U.S. playing Cuban Son, Mambo, Cha-Cha-Cha
(all of which are Cuban creations)etc, even Mexico by then was a big
venue for Cuban music. It took almost TEN YEARS for the Puerto-Ricans
to fill in the hole we left after 1959, and come up with their variant.
One more thing to clarify: do not mix the Latin Jazz creation movement
with the evolution of salsa. Remember that people don't dance salsa
to latin jazz. So let's keep this debate on the dance floor, we cannot
discuss about the origins of salsa without talking about the ONE element
without which is lacks purpose: THE SALSA DANCE. Although the doors
to the US market were closed for Cuba, we kept on dancing and DEVELOPING
our music WITHOUT TAKING ANYTHING from the Puerto Ricans. This is
a very important claim, because if there is one thing NO Puerto Rican
can say, is that we have copied their music or something like that
(If we copied you we'd be re-copying ourselves).So, how can you claim
to be the creator of something when somebody else has been doing it
already, and for longer than you??!!
I must tell you that the way we dance salsa right now is nothing but
a style that has been evolving since almost 100 YEARS AGO. That very
basic salsa step (back and forth 1-2-3 1-2-3) was being performed
already during the very beginning of the 20th century by my great-grand
parents to the beat of Danzon, Cuba's national dance-style. In the
60's we were busy developing further our popular music, and our Casino
dance, making RUEDAS already; this is a fact of history. SO, HOW CAN
YOU SAY THAT SALSA WAS "CREATED" IN NEW YORK IN THE LATE
60'S, 70'S AND 80'S, WHEN IN CUBA PEOPLE WERE ALREADY MAKING IT AND
DANCING TO IT SINCE THE 60'S???? Your statement, in terms of time
is incoherent. I can take the famous song "Son de la Loma",
composed, arranged, copyrighted and played by the Trio Matamoros for
the first time in 1920, and make a present-day-looking Rueda de Casino
dancing with it. This proves the continuity of a rhythm MADE IN CUBA
FOR DANCING, its evolution starting from a pattern that has remained
unaltered for almost or maybe more than a whole century, and its authenticity.
Accept the reality: the Non-Cuban salsa is nothing but just a branch
of a big tree that was planted in Cuba, and still has its trunk there.
It's all been because of the particular historical context that we
had. If there hadn't been a place called Cuba there would have been
no Rumba, Son, Danzon, Charanga, Guaracha, Mambo, Cha-Cha-Cha, Guajira,
Changui, Pilon and of course: SALSA! Now, pro-New-York-origin people,
prove me something like I just did. Get a couple or a bunch of people
and throw them in some 1920's Puerto Rican dance floor and let them
dance. If they can dance to the Puerto Rican music made by then, doing
all the steps of the present New York and L.A. style dance, with the
dips, the acrobacies, the gymnastics and throwing the female partner
all over the place and stuff like that, then all you'd be proving
is that the salsa phenomenon evolved in two separate places at approximately
the same historical time, so neither Cubans nor Puerto Ricans can
claim it as theirs. I honestly (really honestly) wish this was the
answer, so I would not have to see so much tension going on between
us. But I'm afraid that won't be. I believe that acknowledging that
the "Salsa" phenomenon is a Cuban creation would definitely
turn all eyes towards Cuba, and would seriously damage the pockets
of those benefited by claiming it as theirs. This is what's behind
the issue: money, survival in the highly competitive music market
of the U.S. Again, think of this I am telling you: a Cuban person's
rationale is the following: "How can Puerto Ricans say they created
Salsa, when we have been doing it for longer that them? The coinage
of the term "might" be theirs, but the core rhythm is definitely
ours." Oh, one more little thing: someone wrote here that non-Cuban
salsa was more popular because of its universality, because it takes
from different rhythms (like Cuban salsa) etc. That IS NOT TRUE. Cuban
Timba is also universal. Most Cuban musicians don't do Puerto Rican
style because they don't find it challenging enough for them as musicians,
and for the Cuban dancers either. If non-Cuban salsa is more popular
among dancers it is because CUBAN SALSA IS MUCH MORE COMPLEX, therefore
it requires a deeper understanding of rhythm to follow it and fully
enjoy it. Before I leave, I just want to mention that the people of
Cuba, despite this controversy about salsa, have always loved and
respected the Puerto Rican people. That's why I want to leave citing
the Puerto Rican poet Pablo de la Torriente Grau who wrote:
"Cuba
y Puerto Rico son
de un pajaro las dos alas:
reciben flores y balas
en el mismo corazon"
Let the
truth be.
THE CUBAN PEOPLE
July
2, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion (response to Jimmy)
I haven't
heard Clan 537 myself but at Descarga.com it is recommended and highly
recommended for those who like urban hip-hop.
Have
you listened to Orishas? They are excellent Cuban hip-hop. I have
both A Lo Cubano and Emigrante. They are CDs without any weak songs.
For dancing casino/son I like from A Lo Cubano '1.9.9.9' (based on
Chappottin's Telaraña), and 'Mística'. Songs like 'A
Lo Cubano' and 'Represent' are great, if not salsa, and '537 C.U.B.A'
is a fantastic song that takes the music from 'Chan Chan' and describes
the pain of the Cuban exiles. From Emigrante DJs here are playing
'Guajiro', really fun to dance to. If you like cha-cha-cha there's
'El Rey De La Pachacha' also on Emigrante.
Also
I recommend the new Charanga Habanera 'Soy Cubano, Soy Popular' if
you haven't already bought it. -- Michelle
July
16, 2003 - Cuban music discussion
Message:
Dear Mr. Cuban people:
What
you claim to be salsa is not salsa, it is Son. Cubans can take credit
for the Son but not for Salsa.
Here
are some of the many differences:
1. Son
is slower;
2. Son has a very twangy country-bumpkin sound to it;
3. Son does not have an aggressive sound;
4. Son does not use trombones;
5. Son lyrics are pretty empty for the most part - you would never
have lyrics like the lyrics in Pedro Navaja in a Cuban son; 6. Son
is alot simpler and not as complicated; 7. Son has next to no influence
of American Jazz; 8. Son is a label that is given to Afro-Spaniard
music that has been copied by Cubans.
BTW,
the origins of the Danzon is French; Casino Rueda originated as a
way to dance to Cha-Cha-Cha.
As a
Puerto Rican, I am really getting fed up with the lack of acknowledgement
and recognition that has been accorded to us by Cubans like you.
99.9%
of the musicians in Salsa are Puerto Ricans and Nuyoricans. We took
your Son and created something totally knew and different, something
that had never ever been heard in Cuba before. Try finding a song
in 1950s Cuba that even remotely sounds like "Sonido Bestial"
(Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz) or "Timbalero" (Colon/Lavoe).
Good luck.
Oye Cubano,
why don't you thank Africa, Haiti, France and Spain for their influences?
Cuba did not create their music out of a vacuum. -- Roberto
July
18, 2003 - Response to Ivan
Ivan,
Both Charley Gerald and Sue Steward have both stated in their books
that Salsa is basically Cuban music. Sue Steward wrote the Salsa section
in 2 volume anthology of World Music. And she has said that nobody
can deny Salsa is basically Cuban music.
and Izzy Sanabria? How can you expect him to give a non-baised answer?
A person who worked at Fania records??
Ivan.
The reason why Cubans started making big bands was in respond to the
Big Bands in the United States. Why do you assume it was the Puerto
Ricans who introduced the Big Band sound to Latin music? If they did
? Why did it take so long?
20 years? There was no Big Band music in the United States in the
1970's. Cubans were the ones who introduced Jazz into clave based
music.
Charlie
Parker and Miles Davis changed Jazz forever. But it is still called
Jazz. The New York Puerto Ricans may have innovated clave based music.
But it is still Afro-Cuban popular music.
Is salsa
really Pan Latin music? Then why do so few Latin countries produce
original salsa music? Why do most South American dislike or don't
know how to dance salsa? What are the contributions of Chile and Argentina
to salsa music ? Jazz is not Latin music.
If the roots of salsa are from Puerto Rico like bomba or plena, why
do 99% of salsa songs have no bomba or plena or Colombian cumbia?
All salsa songs have Cuban clave !! Salsa singers are called soneros.
New York style salsa is called Mambo. Mambo is 100% Cuban music. The
closest thing to salsa that people dance is Cha Cha Cha. Cha Cha Cha
is 100% Cuban. Why do all salsa songs have a son montuno section?
You have
Los Van Van CDs. Wow !! Do you know groups that become popular after
1990's? Don't go look it up now !! I doubt very much that you know
much about Cuban music because you consider Orishas an innovative
group. Orishas is an outgrowth of rap and hip hop scene in Cuba. Rap
is very big in Cuba. -- Chincub
July
23, 2003 - Cuban music discussion
Chincub,
If anybody is qualified to give their viewpoint on Salsa it would
definitely be Izzy, a NY Puertorican-Cuban who lived through the 1970s
Salsa era. Izzy's opinion carries more weight than the obsure writers
that you have mentioned.
Steward
and Gerald come across as self-proclaimed "experts" who
have arrived at premature conclusions on a cultural movement without
fully exploring the issues and the history. I suggest you do some
more research and try to refrain from making such baseless statements
as "Salsa is Cuban music".
Cubans
were not the first ones to explore Jazz. Prior to people like Mario
Bauza, Chano Pozo and Frank Grillo arriving to U.S., there was a large
group of Puertorican musicians that were playing in American Jazz
bands. The most notable of these bands was Colonel James Reese Europe
and the Harlem Hellfighter's Band in the early 1900s. This was the
first and earliest recording of Latinos in Jazz. This band travelled
all over Europe during the early 19th century and were credited with
being the first U.S. band to introduce Jazz to Europe. James Reese
Europe travelled to PR to recruit black musicians trained in municipal
bands. One of those individuals was the beloved Puertorican composer
Rafael Hernandez.
There
were big bands in the 1970s: Tito Puente, Ray Barretto, Eddie Palmieri
are just a few of the many orchestras that personified the "big
band sound".
There
were no Cuban big bands in the 1970s that I am aware of. At that time
Cuban bands were playing Mozambique and Songo.
In actuality,
the term Afro-Cuban is on the decline in terms of a category to describe
Salsa music. The correct and more proper term that "Afro-Carribbean".
This makes more sense because Salsa is not a musical genre native
to Cuba like Songo or Pilon is, its musicians are all primarily Puertorican,
it incorporates other non-Cuban carribbean influences, and also because
it was created in New York giving it that classic urban and aggressive
sound. Salsa's only connection to Cuba is that it uses the Son as
a musical blueprint, apart from that there is nothing that is natively
Cuban about it. Salsa is historically an expression of Nuyorican/Puertorican
culture with a tendency towards Pan-Latin politics.
Just
because salsa has the clave that does not mean it is Cuban music.
In fact, if you want to pursue that line argument then I kindly point
out to you that clave is from West Africa.
In fact,
seeing as you have read the Sue Steward book, why don't you go to
the African roots section and read the statement by a world-renowned
Zairean musician who bluntly says that all Cuban music is really African
music.
BTW,
there is also clave in Flamenco music but no one calls it Cuban music.
If you made that statement people would laugh at you.
Mambo
is not 100% Cuban. The roots of the Mambo can be traced back to HAITIAN
VOODOO RITUALS. It was the mass exodus of Haitian refugees who fled
their country's revolution, along with French colonialists, and came
to Cuba, that provided the blueprint for the Mambo. In fact, the word
Mambo refers to a priest or priestess who is in conversation with
Voodoo gods.
It is
funny that you mention rap and hip-hop because here is another area
where NY Puertoricans have played a pioneering role. It was NY African-Americans
and Puertoricans that established the foundations of rap back in the
1970s.
While
Cubans were experimenting with Songo and Mozambique, NY Puertoricans
at the time like Miguel Pinero and the Nuyorican Poet's Cafe, were
creating the sounds of hip-hop. -- Roberto
July
25, 2003 - Cuban salsa discussion
Response
to Roberto's comments:
Ok Roberto, in your reply I noticed several things that I should correct
right away to avoid misunderstandings. In one of your previous responses
you wrote: "What you claim to be salsa is not salsa, it is Son."
That is WRONG: I know what Son is, and I know the difference between
Son and Salsa. If you listen to the song "Aqui se enciende la
candela" played by Los Van Van in that period I mentioned (late
60's and early 70's), then you'll know what kind of music I was referring
to. A song like that differs a lot from Son.
Ok, this
is what you said about the differences between Son and Salsa: "1.
Son is slower; 2. Son has a very twangy country-bumpkin sound to it;
3. Son does not have an aggressive sound; 4. Son does not use trombones;
5. Son lyrics are pretty empty for the most part - you would never
have lyrics like the lyrics in Pedro Navaja in a Cuban son; 6. Son
is alot simpler and not as complicated; 7. Son has next to no influence
of American Jazz; 8. Son is a label that is given to Afro-Spaniard
music that has been copied by Cubans."
Well Roberto, rather than making any plausible criticism or rational
descriptive comparison between both genres, all one can read here
is anger, hatred, and an evident intention to deride Son. In the end,
your arguments are not going to be taken seriously into consideration
by anyone because they are obviously superficial. And once again:
what we were dancing to in the 60's and 70's was not Son; we had bands
large enough already to make a faster, more complex and aggressive
sound.
You also
said: "BTW, the origins of the Danzon is French", yes, that's
true, the origins are French (la contra-danza), we don't deny it,
but the rhythm called Danzon was made in Cuba.No one can deny that.
You wrote:
"Casino Rueda originated as a way to dance to Cha-Cha-Cha."
What's this??????? What's your point?
You said:
"As a Puerto Rican, I am really getting fed up with the lack
of acknowledgement and recognition that has been accorded to us by
Cubans like you."
WRONG: as a Cuban, I am trying to balance things out and tell the
world who contributed what. No Cuban denies the role that Puerto Ricans
have played in the evolution of Latin music. The concensus point to
which I think we all should arrive is that the so-called Salsa music
MAY have evolved in different contexts (Cuba and the U.S. or P.R.)
therefore taking different shapes, but with one root which is in Cuba.
There's no need for you to feel fed up. If you went to Cuba you'd
be kindly treated by everyone, and you'd be surprised to see how much
Puerto Rican music is played there. We're more open minded and accepting
than you may think.
You also
said: "99.9% of the musicians in Salsa are Puerto Ricans and
Nuyoricans." Ok, what Salsa are you talking about? What's this?
Just in case, don't forget all the Cuban musicians who were residents
in the US by then and probably gave you a much-needed hand in that.
"We
took your Son and created something totally knew and different"
Great! Some recognition "something that had never ever been heard
in Cuba before." This is an exageration. I credit the creativity,
but let's not exagerate.
"Try
finding a song in 1950s Cuba that even remotely sounds like "Sonido
Bestial" (Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz) or "Timbalero"
(Colon/Lavoe). Good luck."
I'll try. Seriously Roberto, I'll look for it. All I hope is that
these songs you're talking about were made in the 50's, otherwise
it would be useless to compare the different stages at which Cuban
and Puerto Rican music were at the time. Now, do your part and find
"Aqui se enciende la candela" (that one is from the early
70's). Tell me what you think and I'll tell you what I think of your
song.
You said:
"Oye Cubano, why don't you thank Africa, Haiti, France and Spain
for their influences? Cuba did not create their music out of a vacuum."
Very very offending words to finish your statements, making a wrong
assumption and saying things that are not true. I DO THANK AFRICA,
HAITI, FRANCE, SPAIN, THE U.S. AND ANYONE IN THIS WORLD WHOSE INFLUENCE
HELPED SHAPE THE CUBAN MUSIC. WHAT YOU DON'T SEEM TO RECOGNIZE IS
THAT IF THERE HADN'T BEEN THAT PLACE CALLED CUBA, MAYBE NONE OF THESE
RHYTHMS(RUMBA, DANZON, MAMBO, CHA-CHA-CHA, SON, GUARACHA, CHANGUI,
TIMBA, ETC)WOULD HAVE EVER BEEN CREATED.
There were historical factors influencing these phenomena. These factors
were out of anyyone's control. Here is something you should know:
Africa thanks us for our music, because we gave them good feedback
and contributed to the modernization of their beats. If you have any
doubts about this, listen to what some of the greatest African voices
of history have to say about Cuban music. Ask Salif Keita, Youssou
N'Dour, Cheikh Lo, Les Ambassadeurs du Mali, Franco. You know what?
If you listen to the music many of these artists were playing during
the 70's and early 80's you'll probably be very disappointed to identify
the Cuban rhythm in it. Any Cds? "Youssou N'Dour and Les Etoiles
de Dakar", Las Maravillas de Mali (who traveled to Cuba in the
60's to learn Cuban instrumentation). I am IMMENSELY PROUD OF MY AFROCUBAN
BACKGROUND. I am myself Afrocuban. The relations between Cuba and
African countries are great. We have done for Africa what you'll never
do: we have shed our blood there. So don't be so disrespectful. I
have danced and I listen to a lot more Haitian music than you do (Do
you, at all??)Do they play kompa or zouk at any regular Puerto Rican
party?? Have you ever been to a real bembe? Do you know any words
in Yoruba? To conclude: Cubans don't deny their mixed origins and
the mixed origins of their music. What no one can deny is that we
made these things CUBAN, and this is the point.
You have said many things that were wrong, and have made offensive
assumptions. This way you'll never win an argument or even make a
valid point. One last note to drop: I said one thing before that I
doubt you'll be able to refute. Cubans haven't taken ANYTHING from
Puerto Ricans during the evolution of our national rhythms. Starting
from this true assumption, how can you explain we have our own salsa,
our Timba Cubana?
The Cuban
People.
July
27, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion
Response
to Roberto:
I think
that things don't become clear or people don't arrive to any consensus
in these discussions because there are lots of misundertandings and
innacurate assumptions made.
For example,
Roberto, I have noticed that in your attempts to descredit Cuban music
you often turn to the argument that this or that Cuban rhythm is not
purely Cuban because its roots are somewhere else. e.g.You said: "Just
because salsa has the clave that does not mean it is Cuban music.
In fact, if you want to pursue that line argument then I kindly point
out to you that clave is from West Africa. In fact, seeing as you
have read the Sue Steward book, why don't you go to the African roots
section and read the statement by a world-renowned Zairean musician
who bluntly says that all Cuban music is really African music. Mambo
is not 100% Cuban. The roots of the Mambo can be traced back to HAITIAN
VOODOO RITUALS."
If you
follow this line, you would have to end up denying also that any Puerto
Rican or Nuyorican music is authentically theirs because you'll realize
that it all has their roots somewhere else. Almost all the music that
Afro-american , Afro-caribbean and Afro-southamerican people have
made has its roots in Africa, especially West Africa. Jazz has its
roots there, and so do blues, reggae and a legion of Afro-latin rhythms.
When
Cubans say that something is Cuban, we mean that we have created something
NEW as the result of the mix of the so many rhythms brought in our
island by the different African nations that coincided there (a lot
more nations than in Puerto Rico, and a lot more blacks from different
African nations too), along with the european and even north american.
For example, you said that Mambo was not 100% Cuban, that it had its
roots in haiti, but: Do you hear in Haiti nowadays anything like the
Cuban Mambo?
The fact
that there is something called "Cuban Music" is unrefutable,
because we have a distinctive rhythm and have also added to it our
national spirit, our Cuban character, our culture. That's why we can
talk about Cuban music, Puerto Rican music, Venezuelan music, Colombian
music, etc, because in the process of formation of our national identities
we have come up with something recognizably distinctive from what
surrounds us. If you go to page 546 of the already mentioned Rough
Guide to World music vol.1, you'll be able to see a prominent African
using the term Cuban music, recognizing it's different. You'll also
read in that page that the Cuban clave has its roots in Mande music.
That clave takes the name Cuban clave, when it is placed in a different
context, fulfilling a different fuction.
You pointed
out that "Salsa's only connection to Cuba is that it uses the
Son as a musical blueprint, apart from that there is nothing that
is natively Cuban about it.", but for God's sake!!!, if "your"
salsa didn't have our Son (and our Mambo and our Cha Cha Cha, etc)
it would have NEVER been what it is. The Son is the ESSENCE of what
your salsa is. You are carefull to use the word "natively"
as to continue discrediting these Cuban rhythms that form the core
of "your" salsa. If I followed your same pattern of argument,
I could discredit right now your salsa as not being an original Puerto
Rican/Nuyorican creation because it has its roots in Cuban Son and
other rhythms that are not "natively Cuban". See how you
fall in a trap?
People
also forget how much of Cuban rumba there is in Salsa, and Rumba is,
by far, one of the most innovative creations made by Cubans to the
mix of African and Spanish percussion.
You insist
that Cuban music is pretty much African or somewhere else's, but you
don't say the same about Puerto Rican or Nuyorican, and it should
be, following that line, right?
You wrote
"There were no Cuban big bands in the 1970s that I am aware of.
At that time Cuban bands were playing Mozambique and Songo."
Not just that, but also Son, Rumba, Changui, Charanga, Guajira, Boleros,
Conga, Mambo and Cha Cha Cha, and although the last two were not big
on mainstream they've always remained a part of our repertoire.
You said things with which I agree. For example, the latin jazz movement
was conducted not only by Cuban musicians, but also by lots of Puerto
Ricans
You told Chincub: "I suggest you do some more research and try
to refrain from making such baseless statements as "Salsa is
Cuban music"."
Roberto, do you know who said that? Celia Cruz. She said that "Salsa
is Cuban music with another name. It's Mambo, Cha Cha Cha, Rumba,
Son...all the Cuban Rhythms under one name". That's on page 488
of that same book, Vol.2. I don't think it's a baseless statement
because the influence of all these rhytms in "your" salsa
can be proven. However, I believe there were more things influencing
the emergence of Salsa, some of which you have mentioned. Where I
think you fail is at recognizing how much of Cuban music there is
in your salsa (even to the point of deriding Son, as I read in one
of your previous responses. That surely will make you look bad in
the eyes of people who are serious about latin music). You also fail
at admitting how vital our contribution has been, and you've also
made a way too obvious and desperate attempt to make some of our rhythms
look not authentically Cuban.
I'd like
to leave stating a few equations:
Cuban Music without African Music = Nothing
Salsa without African Music = Nothing
However,
Salsa without Cuban Music = Nothing
LQQD (Lo que queda demostrado)
Take
care everyone, and if you can understand Spanish well, I recommend
you to check out the lyrics of the Cuban Timba song "Esto te
pone la cabeza mala", by Los Van Van, that talks about the roots
of Cuban music.
Chao.
El Conguero
August
4 , 2003 - Ivan's e-mail about Cuban music
Ivan,
People prefer to sit down for Cuban music? Are you nuts?
I doubt your knowledge of Cuban music, when you mention Los Van Van.
Los Van Van started 30 years ago. Don't you any groups that are less
then 10 years old?
When
you mentioned Orishas and Africando as innovative groups, I know who
have no idea about Cuban music. Hip and Hop and rap have always big
in Cuba even surpassing salsa's popularity for young people in Cuba
long before Orishas. Africando were not the first to put African sounds
to Salsa. The Buena Vista Social club were supposed to jam sessions
of Cuban and Senegalese musicians. The cultural exchanges between
Cuba and Africa has been clearly much closer than let's say New York
and Africa. You only know the music the music companies allow you
to hear and then you consider it innovative.
I didn't
know Cubans just sit down and listen to La Charanga Habanera or Issac
Delgado. Songo which is the forerunner to timba was inspired by the
movements of the dancers. Cuban music has always been closely connected
to dancing. Whereas salsa music especially after the 1980's has lost
this connection. It began to sound like romantic pap. Most Cuban musicians
and dancers find salsa music boring. Timba is more a challenge to
dance and it more interesting sections, different rhythms. Salsa is
the same throughout the entire song. For me salsa is for sitting and
timba or Cuban music is for dancing. -- Alex
August
7, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion
To everyone!!
Cubans
to the left of me, Puerto Rican's to the right, here I am, stuck in
the middle with you....
It has
certainly been a heated discussion and highly educational - I've learned
more from this thread than any book on the history of salsa. This
thank you even goes out to Chincub, Mechy and the Cuban People, despite
the insults (oh...the Cuban People - nice to see you talking on behalf
of an entire nation - how does one go about this - is some sort of
UN thing?). I wish your tones were less aggressive, then we might
swap ideas and facts rather than make cheap shots. I would genuinely
love to learn more about this music - I am not trying to be nice for
the sake of it (Chincub!)
It seems
that people have drawn their battle lines firmly in the sand and are
sticking to them, with the debate generally degenerating. It sometimes
feels like both sides are desperate to stamp salsa as theirs. I think
this shows just how difficult the term salsa is and how unhelpful
it is once you scratch beneath the surface.
El Conguero
makes some useful points:
'That's
why we can talk about Cuban music, Puerto Rican music, Venezuelan
music, Colombian music, etc, because in the process of formation of
our national identities we have come up with something recognizably
distinctive from what surrounds us'
It is
clear that Cuba, Puerto Rico and New York all played fundamental parts
in shaping modern salsa. It is also clear that each of these has a
different sound, shaped by the cultural and musical melting pots that
they all are. Salsa is a multi-cultural, multi-national musical genre.
I said before that it was pan-latin, which I admit I now have to take
back. I think this was stretching it. I do still feel that Afro-Carribean
is a more useful description than Afro-Cuban and given the evidence,
I also still feel that calling salsa Cuban is pushing it.!
Maybe
we should be slightly less worried about the past of salsa (we could
argue all day with no real progress) and more concerned about the
present and the future of salsa music (if we don't then we might have
some nightmarish revival of Salsa Romantica ;-)
I see
that Chincub has made some good arguments in other threads about most
salsa dancers not appreciating salsa music. At least this thread shows
that there are a few people out there with interests that go a little
further. We should try to encourage people to learn about salsa roots,
but carrying on with Cuban v Puerto Rican v New York debates will
only make use look like a bunch of geeks and put people off learning
more....
Food
for thought, Ivan
August
13, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion
To Alex,
Congratulations on a useful thread (!?), which added absolutely nothing
to the discussion. At least Chincub's posts are sometimes educational...
I used
Orishas and Africando as EXAMPLES. I don't mean them to be the be
all and end all of Cuban hip-hop or African salsa. I used them because
they are moderately well known and, whatever you say, are great bands
and fuse different styles very well. Whether or not they are the first
or best examples (I wasn't arguing for either of these) belongs on
another thread, but to deny that they show how versatile salsa is
and in which directions it might be going (the original point of the
examples) is idiocy.
Here's
a thought for you - maybe Orishas and Africando are popular worldwide
because they are good?? Shocking idea I know. It's a shame you are
so cynical that you believe that any band who is popular these days
must be the product of evil marketing. The bottom line is that such
bands have received critical acclaim from many areas.
Do us
all a favour and keep your trainspotting tendencies to yourself.
I get
the feeling there is an element of musical snobbery in a large number
of the people who post here. The kind of people who look down on others
because they don't own the entire Beny More back catalogue. This only
serves to alienate people. After all, most people listen / dance to
salsa because it is fun! -- Ivan
August
29, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion, response to Everyone
Time
to start calling things what they are!
Hey Ivan: I don't think my fellow Cuban People guy was that wrong
when he said what he said, and when he spoke on behalf of a whole
nation. Don't make silly ironic statements and remember that this
guy comes from a place that has a culture. Cuba is made up by people
with all kinds of backgrounds, but it's still not the Canada type
of melting pot where there is not a well-defined sense of national
identity: a national common sense. The Cuban People guy was fully
honest, and expressed a viewpoint that's shared by a huge amount of
Cubans. The problem right now is the type of terminology some Cubans
are using in their debates about Salsa.
I want to make a call to all the people out there, Cubans and non-Cubans
to make us all aware of the need to stop using the term Salsa to refer
to the music made in the island. Right now, in terms of rhythm, things
have come to the point that the music made in Cuba is clearly and
recognizably NOT what most people define as Salsa. Let's start calling
it for what it is: TIMBA. Many Cubans were compelled to call their
music Salsa because after the doors of the American market were open
for them again in the early 90s, they needed to give their music a
name most people could relate to. This wasn't difficult, and we didn't
feel like it was an awkward thing to do because Salsa has its foundations
in Cuban music, but the truth is that in the island, till that date,
we never used to call our music Salsa. Right now there is a growing
tendency to refer to contemporary Cuban dance music as TIMBA. Timba
is distinctively Cuban, distinctively complex and syncopated, varied,
explosive, and different even in the way it is sung and danced. Timba
is a whole new experience. If we start calling it like that, I'm pretty
sure the debates will flow more smoothly and we'll avoid getting some
people upset out there. For more info on timba you can visit the excellent
web site called www.timba.com
Let's keep the debates!!! -- El Conguero
November
10, 2003 -
Chincub,
For someone who is not "traditionally" and "authentically"
Cuban you sure speak alot of nonsense. I must say that is always the
NON-CUBANS in these discussion forums who distort and misinterpret Cuban
culture; they give real Cubans a bad name.
You said
Mexico has no salsa/mambo tradition? You forget how Mexico was the
center of the Mambo craze way before it became fashionable in North
America. You forget that Perez Prado lived and recorded from Mexico,
you forget that most Cuban bands played and recorded in Mexico - there
is a song by Celiz Cruz whose chorus goes "Mexico lindo baila
y canta mi guaguanco" - the songs talk about how she loves watching
Mexicans sing and dance to guaguanco; you forget that Beny More wrote
and sang many songs about Mexican mambo dancers; you forget that Celia
Cruz and La Sonara Matancera had decided to retire in Mexico but was
convinced by Larry Harlow to move to New York and sing for FANIA;
you forget that the many Mexican bands that developed as a direct
result of their love for La Sonora Matancera - bands like La Sonora
Santanera. It is so funny to see how someone who so boldly claims
to be authentically Cuban know absolutely nothing about it's musical
history. It is people like you who give real Cubans a negative image.
Chincub,
whoever told you that LA salsa dancing is Cuban with Ballroom is about
as ignorant of Cuban dancing as you are. If you did your research
you would know that LA style dancing is primarily influenced from
West Coast Swing and some Latin Ballroom. New York style salsa is
primarily influenced from Hustle. The NY shines that were originally
done in the 1950s/60s came from East Cost Swing. In fact, it is now
known that the cross body lead came from Swing.
The Vazquez
brothers learned salsa in North America b/c Salsa is more a product
of North American culture than Latin American culture. As a Cuban,
I do believe that Salsa was created in New York. It was the NY Puertoricans
that took our folkloric genres and revolutionized them with a more
modern, more aggressive sound that entailed many North American influence.
Every Cuban knows that the music that was created in NY in the 1960s
had its own distinctive sound, it was not recycled Cuban music. The
Cubans who say that are ones that a) pretend to be Cuban - such as
yourself - and thus have no real knowledge of Cuban culture and/or
b)are jeolous and envious of the great accomplishments of our Puertorican
brothers and therefore will refuse to give the credit they deserve.
You go
to Cuba and you will see how rare it is to see Cuban salsa dancing.
Most Cubans like North American music, alot of Cubans love and dance
to rap and hiphop music. In fact, go to most of the Latin countries
and you will see the same thing - Latinos from Latin America dance
to US pop music, Latin rock, Latin reggae, rap/hip hop, etc.
Since
you claim to be such an "expert" on Cuban dancing, I think
you should demonstrate this by answering the following questions:
1. In
what year and in which city did Son dancing emerge?
2. Describe all the steps in Son dancing? What does the man do and
what does the woman do?
3. Differentiate between the son danced in Havana with the son danced
in other parts of Cuba. How is rural Son dancing different from urban
Son dancing?
4. What did traditional son dancers wear?
5. What were the most popular Son songs to dance to when it first
came out and what were some the places to go dance Son? What were
the names of the club owners? What were the names of the bartenders?
6. What is guaguanco dancing? Describe all the steps? Name some popular
songs and the artists.
7. What is rumba dancing? Describe all the steps?
8. In what year and in what city did these latter two dances emerge
from? 9. How do you dance to Son Montuno? Please describe every single
step in detail.
10. When did casino first emerge? How do you dance to it? How is it
different from Son, Son Montuno, Guaguanco and Rumba?
11. What was the name of the place and owner of where Casino started?
How was Casino in Havana different Casino in Santiago de Cuba? Please
go into meticulous detail as to the distinguishing factors.
12. What is modern Son and how different is it from traditional Son
and in what city and year did Modern Son emerge?
13. What were the names of the dancers that invented all these different
styles and which cities did they come from?
14. How do you dance Timba? Please describe every single step in detail.
How is Timba different Son, Guaguanco, Rumba, Casino, Casino Rueda?
15. What are the fundamental differences between Casino and Casion
Rueda? Please gives us a meticulous history into its origins and evolution
over the years.
Roberto,
(a "traditional", "authentic", and "real"
Cuban)
November
13, 2003 - Cuban music discussion
For
Roberto,
I have been impressed with the level of passion and knowledge of the
discussions on all of the topics on this site, partcularly those dealing
with Cuban music & dancing. Living in the part of the UK that
I do, as you can imagine, I have precious little contact with Cubans.
But my preference is for Cuban style music and dancing. So, Roberto,
though you post was intended for 'Chincub', I would be very grateful
if you would spend the time and give me the answers to the questions
you set out in your last post. Many Thanks JohnJ
November
14, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion - response to
Roberto
Que
bola, Roberto!
I'm not going to reply to the many and interesting questions you've
made for Chincub, that's up to him. I'm first of all very impressed
by your English, that's why I'm curious to know how you've learnt
to express yourself like that.
I'm just a little bit confused about a question you made that makes
no sense at all. The question is:
"14.
How do you dance Timba? Please describe every single step in detail.
How is Timba different Son, Guaguanco, Rumba, Casino, Casino Rueda?"
As a
Timba generation guy and committed Timba fan, this question makes
no sense for me because there is NO particular way to dance Timba.
NO, not in the sense that you could describe "Timba steps".
Probably the most outstanding Timba "move" is the DESPELOTE,
but even that existed before Timba emerged. Timba allows for such
free, various and uninhibited dance expressions that it is definitely
impossible to pose a question like that.
Did you
live in Cuba throughout the 90's, which is the time Timba emerged?????
Roberto,
don't take me wrong, but you have to revise that question. Otherwise
maybe answer to it yourself, please.
On the
other hand, I often disagree with stuff that Chincub posts, but as
a Cuban I'd never attack another fellow without knowing him as a person.
Chincub's ideas about music and dance are just viewpoints. I don't
think they tell you if he's a good or a bad person, and it doesn't
mean he is not an "authentic" Cuban. Other Cubans in the
island share his ideas. Whether they're right or wrong, nothing will
take away their national identity.
I'd like
to read your answer to question 14.
Cuidate,
El Conguero.
November
15, 2003 - Response to Roberto
I was
born and raised in Cuba. Perhaps I am not authentically or traditionally
Cuban enough for you. And I am sure most Cubans don't know the answers
to your questions. So, they aren't Cuban? If another Cuban doesn't
agree with you, they aren't really Cuba or they forgot what it means
to be Cuban? That is your own prejudice.
If you
go to Cuba, although they appreciate all types of salsa, they will
tell you they are happy that people from countries took THEIR music
and made it their own. But most Cubans will tell you Salsa is basically
a style of Afro-Cuban music.
First
of all, most people who say Salsa is from New York say Mambo has nothing
to with Salsa. Because by admiting so would mean that Salsa is connected
with Cuban music because Mambo is 100% Cuban music. Or they call their
salsa dancing Mambo because they think Mambo came from Haiti or Africa
or somewhere.
If salsa
is totally new and different from Cuban music, why are you talking
about Mambo in Mexico? I said Mexico has no salsa culture or tradition.
But according to people who share your opinion, Celia Cruz before
she went to the United States never sang salsa. And people who believe
salsa is from New York would never think Sonora Matancera is salsa.
You talk about mambo, guaguanco in Mexico. But you said salsa is totally
different from Cuban music. Why don't you talk about salsa in Mexico?
I have
no doubt what you say about Mexico is true. Mexico was and perhaps
still is the Hollywood of Latin America. All performers in Latin America
wanted to go to Mexico because in Mexico they could be seen all over
Latin America. If you really want to make it and you were Latin, Mexico
was the place. All of the preformers you talked about in Mexico are
Cuban. Perhaps La Sonora Santanera is a great band, but as you stated
before they were just a copy of the Cuban band. Cuban music and musicians
were popular all over the world. But most people would agree salsa
is not part of the poplular culture in Mexico like in Cuba, Puerto
Rico or Colombia. When the Francisco brothers dance, I am sure they
are NOT borrowing from the old Mexican mambo dancers. What is Mexican
style salsa dancing? Where are the great Mexican SALSA bands?
As you
stated before Cubans went all over the world with their music before
the "invention" of salsa. They went to New York to teach
the Puerto Ricans how to play, before the Puerto Ricans made it their
own. So, it would be natural that would bring their own style of dancing.
So, why do discount the Cuban influence in New York style dancing?
Don't you think Cuban mambo, chachacha or son dancing had as much
influence as hustle or east coast swing in New York style dancing?
I don't
know which Cubans you are hanging out with. But most Cubans, although
they appreciate all types of salsa, will tell you basically salsa
is still Afro-Cuban music.
Like
Conguero said, your English is really good, probably better than mine.
And for a Cuban, you know a lot about Ballroom dancing, East or West
coast swing. As for your questions and I am still working on them.
I am just runout of time. -- Chincub
November
16, 2003 - Hi Chincub,
Please
note my sarcasm in my posting regarding you not being an "authentic"
and "traditional" Cuban. You are as Cuban as I am.
I was
simply trying to illustrate a point that we need to throw away these
notions of "the real thing" and/or "authentic"
b/c they are meaningless and stupid. It is getting to the point where
it is isolating and insulting alot people - and it is all being done
under the banner of so-called "true" Cuban music and culture.
Chincub,
look at the racial composition of Latino culture - we are a mixture
of African, European, Ameri-Indian and Asian - we are so mixed that
there is no such thing as "authentic" or "traditional"
- these are meaningless concepts in this context.
As Cubanos
we need to feel happy that our folkoric music has influenced the music
of other nationalities - just like los Africanos and Espanoles appreciate
the fact that their music has provided a great foundation for Cuban
music.
I am
sick and tired of Cubans and Puertoricans fighting. We are two cultures
that have so much in common and yet we fight each other for stupid
things. I acknowledge and give credit to all the NY Puertoricans for
creating Salsa, for taking our Son and creating something new. Cubanos
provided the musical blueprint and Puertoricans took that blueprint,
reinterpreted it (via other musical influences) and produced a new
sound.
Like
the great Johnny Pacheco once said, salsa was a product of Puertoricans
living in the Bronx who took the Cuban Son and made their own sound
out of it - a distinctive NY sound.
In my
view, Cubans and Puertoricans are brothers - salsa is like a bird
and we are its two wings (the bird needs both wings to fly).
I invite
you to listen to Ray Barretto's song "Te Traigo Salsa y Dulcura"
- in the middle of the song the lyrics say "Oigan Boricua y Cubano
- Dios dice somos hermanos".
Here's
to brotherhood and being more open-minded. Take care. -- Roberto
November
17, 2003 - Chincub
Hey
Chincub,
I am
a salsa dancer and a psychology aficionado. Going through some the
messages you have posted on this web site I realize you are the perfect
candidate for my recent
study about 'brainless and narrow-minded people in the salsa scene'.
If you
are interested please do not hesitate to send me an email at StopEmbarrasingYourself@GetALife.com
-- Victor.
