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Cuban Music Discussion Dear
Readers, it was almost unbelievable to receive two emails commenting
about the subject of dance styles
in the same week at the beginning of 2001; and it has somehow moved
into a separate discussion on cuban music versus other styles of salsa
music which I've given its own home. |
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The Feedback.... September
23, 2001 September
23, 2001 September 26, 2001 Hmmm... shall we vote? Is Cuban music better than Newyorican? you decide... September
28, 2001 October
1, 2001 October
12, 2001 -- from Abdel Lopez November
2, 2001 I will play these and other Cuban sounds when I bring Quimica Perfecta to the Bamboo Club in Toronto November 9. Quimica Perfecta are a very talented group of young Cuban musicians living in Toronto who specialize in 'timba' and I would encourage Toronto salseros to come down and experience the difference. thanks
and keep up the good work November
4, 2001 << 99% of the salsa songs they play at nightclubs come from either Puerto Rico, New York or Colombia. It is very difficult to hear a Cuban salsa song being played at a nightclub. Of course, you can hear Colombian, Puerto Rican versions of Cuban songs, they do it all the time. But it is difficult to hear the real thing. >> There is a majority of Salsa music recordings played by DJ's of bands outside of Cuba. But this depends on Geographics in the U.S. In Miami you hear alot of Willy Chirino and Raul Paz. And artists like Albita and Cachao are thrown in there as well. NYC you'll hear alot of the local bands from NYC and also Puerto Rico. It's based upon the demand of what the public/dancers want or are calling for to be played. Another distinction you have to make is which Cubans are you talking about? Cubans from Cuba or Cubans anywhere? Because Cuban artists outside of Cuba receive much play at clubs in Miami, Washington, NYC, Chicago and elsewhere. From Miles Peqa to Justo Betancourt to Hector Casanova to Celia Cruz to Orquesta Broadway to Chico Alvarez just to name a few. All of whom are Cuban born residing in America & Puerto Rico. One other reason why you may not hear many cuban nationals music playing at clubs is that what you deem as them playing Salsa is actually not. The majority of popular bands emerging from Cuba are not playing Salsa but are playing Timba. Timba is a whole new ballgame. You cannot dance on 1 or 2 to Timba. Dancing to Timba is in a form somewhat of a "tembleque". You cannot dance on 2 to Timba. You could try, but it's not set up that way. Most people in the states dance Mambo style and whether we enjoy it or not, Salsa Romantica and Clasica provide the means to do so. In NYC, there is one particular venue that does play TIMBA music all night long. Visit NELL'S on a Wednesday night www.cubansoul.com. Perhaps there are other venues around the USA that play Timba as well someone might be able to hip you to?.... << Most DJs think Cuban music is Gloria Estafan and they would be hard pressed to name one popular Salsa group in Cuba now. >> I'm curious.... Could you? Like I said, you have Adalberto Alvarez, Cubanismo, Charanga Habanera, Isaac Delgado and some others who Salsa dancers in the states could dance to. But it's very dificult to take the same Salsa/Mambo dance approach to Paulito F.G., Los Van Van, NG La Banda, etc. Of course the embargo doesn't help any what with travel restrictions and what not. Cuban bands do not get paid in the USA. Theire pesence in the USA is partof the cultural exchange porogram set up between the US and other countries to appreciate other cultures. What they get is a stipend, maybe like $100 dollars for walking around money while they are here. Theri's smore $$ opportubnityi in Europe for them than the USA. At least under the current US-Cuba relationship. If the ban is lifted, then watch out Salseros! More clubs would probably book Cuban bands for it's "freshness". Until the next "mania" from someplace else comes around and replaces it. FYI-Issac Delgado happens to be one of the biggest selling artists out of Cuba in the USA right now. In a four month span he has sold more units than what George Lamond sold in a whole year for his debut CD "Entrega". So I think the whole Cuban Salsa doesn't get play in the states or anyplace else is a little exagerrated. It does get play and people do seem to be buying it.... << People can only like what they can hear. It's like Casino or Cuban salsa dancing, people think they know what it is like, but they haven't seen the real thing. I don't think it is some great conspiracy against Cuban music, but popular Cuban music of today has not been given a fair chance in the market place. >> You are correct, yet Cuban music is not the only one who is suffering from this lack of promotion in the USA Market place. There are many bands cuban and non-cuban who are also not receiving a proper chance. Popular Salsa bands such as Jimmy Bosch and Wayne Gorbea to Los Jovenes Del Barrio and Larry Harlow do not receive airplay on commercial radio, nor do they get the type of promotion they deserve. It is an all around problem facing many artists, not just the cubans. Another FYI-If you notice, the general concensus among promoters is that Cuban bands are the way to go these days. Most Buena Vista Social Club presentations whether it's Ibrahim Ferrer or Omara Portuondo or other artists such as Latin Jazz virtuosos, Chucho Valdes & Gonzalo Rubalcaba sell out their respctive venues that they appear in. While you say that Cuban popular music gets no respect, the consensus in the music industry seems to be that the Cuban nationals are taking away jobs/$$$ from the stateside musicians, cuban and non-cuban.... <<
In terms of music, we follow the American Music companies and for
many years you couldn't listen to Cuban music because of the American
trade embargo. Even now, Difficult, if perhaps you live in an area where the local record shops don't sell many latin CD's. But it is not impossible to find most, if not all, of the popular and non-popular Cuban CD's in your local super stores or small record shops that cater to Afro-Caribbean or World Music. The Virgin Record Stores, COCONUTS, BORDERS, J&R music World and other retail shops possess most of the Cuban popular music catalog in their inventory. If you can't find it in your stores, there is always the on-line mail order internet CD stores that can provide you with some Cuban music.... www.descarga.com << Many Djs and record companies in the US are afraid to touch Cuban music, because of the Cuban-American lunatics in Miami. >> You hit the nail right on the head. I personally believe that Timba could be a crossover phenomenon to the American consumer in the market place. Simply because Timba has Pop/R&B/Rock influences. Outside of the Salsa cuhcifrito circuit. But due to this severe problem in Miami with anything coming out of Cuba being perceived as evil and Castro-influenced, Cuban Popular Music from the island will suffer in terms of mass exposure here in the states. BTW-For
the guy who wrote that the FANIA ALL-STARS Copied the Cuban song SANDUNGUERA,
the CD it appeared on BRAVO '97 was orignally intended to be in Tribute
to Juan Formell, leader of Los Van Van. If you notice, the entire
recording is nothing but Van Van tunes. When Jerry Masucci, the FANIA
President/Founder (who was a huge cuban music fan) was still alive,
his dream was to combine the world's greatest Salsa band, The FANIA
ALL-STARS and have them back up Cuba's best up & coming singers.
Recorded in Cuba, Issac Delgado, Manolin, Lucrecia, Mayito Rivera,
and some others recorded the vocals for the songs which was to be
released under the new label Jerry Masucci Music. (JMM) Unfortunately,
the Miami exiles got wind of the recording and SONY (who is based
out of Miami and was JMM's distributor) was forced to have Masucci
change the format altogether or there would be no deal between them.
All of this due to the threat of protest and just the usual political
BS one has to endure to appease the Cuban exile leaders, who felt
that paying tribute to a resident Cuban such as Juan Formell (who
refuses to leave Cuba) means one is embracing communism. << So, I don't think your poll of what Salsa (New York or Cuba) you prefer is fair, because most of your readers have never heard Cuban salsa -- Lulita >> I have.
But to each is own. You can't blame people for liking one style or
music from a specific location more than another. Not everything is,
as you say, a conspiracy. Rumbero November
5, 2001 I don't feel that the poll is unfair with regards to which Salsa do you prefer, Cuban or Nuyorican? You may be correct with regards to North America, but what about Salseros in Europe or South & Central America where Cuban music is predominant and many Cuban bands perform there regularly? North America is just but one piece of the SALSA pie.... << when New York bands like the previous DLG played tipical cuban SON like "Juliana", people didn't recognize it as what it is, SON. >> "Juliana" is not a typical Cuban Son. Juliana happens to be a "Guaracha" recorded previous to DLG's version by Cuco Valoy. A Dominican. What's more important? Paying lip service to a musical form? Or to an ethnic group that has never gotten recognized for their contribution to Cuban popular music and Salsa? Los Dominicanos.... << What started happening in New York from around 1990 and up is just versions of SONGO. >> This is completely false. Salsa Romantica is not SONGO. The closest thing to the Romantica approach is Timba. In 1973, the Salsa Orchestra known as Tipica '73 released the first Salsa album in the states that had Songo. Pick up the album CANDELA and compare it with Los Van Van's early recordings.... << In respects to what Izzy said about young New Yoricans saved the Cuban music around 1959 in New York City. That might have been true for the music in New York City, since the embargo didn't allow for Cuban music to be brought over to North America properly. >> Many people say this but there is proof to contradict otherwise. Why take the album MAMBO CON CONGA IS MOZAMBIQUE by Eddie Palmieri in 1965 for instance. The Mozambique rhythm was created by Cuban musician, Pello El Afrokan, some years prior to EP's record release. How did EP get wind of this new rhythm if there was this all-limiting embargo that stopped anythgn coming ut of Cuba to reach the USA? How did Tipica '73 get hip to Songo? Los Van Van were recording it prior to Tipcia '73 was. Timba Music goes as far back as the 1970s. Both Songo and Timba are Afro-Cuban music mixed with North American music's. Los Van Van wanted to incorporate Rock elements into their sound. The Timberos started fooling with synthesizers and electric bass guitars, etc. This is all American influenced. How did the Cubans get hip to these music's? There may have been an embargo that was supposedly intended to stop any communication from the island to the USA. But much like today, it didn't stop music from evolving and influencing one another. Much like today people traveled to Cuba back and forth from the USA and vice versa and learned from each other. Bands like Irakere & Los Van Van are products of their cuban musical environment with a keen interest in American home grown products like Jazz, Funk and R&B. Just pick up any of those records by either of those two groups and you'll see that there's not much difference between what Irakere was doing and what Carlos Santana was doing during the same time period.... << But in Cuba and in Africa & many other places around the world, they continued and have been listening to what after 1959 was still being created in Cuba >> So has the USA. And both Cuba and Africa and other countries have been listening to what was being created in the USA as well. (See Africando, Orq. De La Luz from Japan, Salsa Celtica from Sctoland, Nueva Manteca from Germany, Conexion Latina from Hamburgh, Germany, etc.) << I found alot of song versions of Cuban bands by others, for example, she has Fania playing "Sandunguera", an original song of Los Van Van, Jose Alberto "El Canario" shows up with "A la hora que me llamen voy" of Candido Fabre, and many more songs of Cubans as the one of Fruko "De donde son los cantantes" a very old cuban song, also Oscar De Leon sings of Benny More "Que bueno baila Usted". Many of all these Cuban songs were created long before the "SALSA" name was created for the Cuban music played in New York city, it is a real proof that salsa is just the Son, Mambo and Rumba. >> Okay
let's play with your little theory here. Then what would you say to
Roberto Faz recording "El Bombon De Elena", Ruben Gonzalez
playing "Maria Cervantes", Orquesta Aragon recording "Cachita",
Chucho Valdes recording December 2, 2001 - To " El Rumbero " Do you call Salsa to what Jimmy Bosh and Los Jovenes del Barrio are playing ? But, you don`t call the new music coming out of Cuba, Salsa ? I thought Salsa was any mixing of rythms, and that is what Timba is. We mix Latin Jazz, Songo, Mambo, Guaracha and so on. You can call Jimmy Bosh`s music Salsa if you ,as well, do it with the music played by old Cuban bands such as Arsenio, La Sonara Matanzera, Benny More, etc. I know
in the Salsa scene there are some Brazilian beats and some others,
but I also know they just brought it to say Salsa is a Worldwide music.
To dance to Salsa in Cuba back in the 40`s we didn`t need to bring
any Brazilian beat. Is so hard to type on the CD ?" This is a tribute to Los Van Van ", as Israel "KANTOR" did in his "real" tribute to LOS VAN VAN.Even more, Israel not even shows his name, but the Fania`s CD just says "FANIA" . What a tribute !!!!!! -- Abdel Lopez December 24, 2001 - Afro-Latinos Hey whats up I Just wanted to say that i think that my black brothers and sisters from latin America deserve some credit for most of styles. Latin music has styles like samba, rhumba, cumbia, bomba, plena, salsa, son, merengue and alot more and i have talked about the dances yet I think The latin American media does not show blacks much on spanish Channels In America the latinos you see performing latin music are whites you would think whites made most styles of latin music I think we need to see more blacks on latino channels not immitators performing their music and i hate it when people say the only influence blacks or africans had on latin music was the drums thats a bunch of bull. the marimbas came from africa the clave rythem the Shakeres And a whole bunch more I Just think blacks deserve some credit at least for music as a whole with out Africa every one will still be dancing the Polka Bye One Love Never Forget Africa And her Peoples. December 27, 2002 - Salsa Is Not a Rhythm....It Is A Concept << Do you call Salsa to what Jimmy Bosch and Los Jovenes del Barrio are playing? But, you don`t call the new music coming out of Cuba, Salsa? I thought Salsa was any mixing of rythms, and that is what Timba is. >> Salsa is not just ANY mixing of rhythms. TIMBA has it's own identity. The interpretations of Timba are based on the what's taking place currently in cuban society today. Much like Salsa was in the early 70s. The musicians in Cuba are adapting what tey perceive and have experienced and Cuba and transposing it into the music. The Same way a Willie Colsn & Hector Lavoe discuss about possibly getting mugged or stabbed in CALLE LUNA CALLE SOL, Cuban musicians discuss the prosititues walking along El Malecon or the current state of the Union (Communist Cuba.) If you
want to you can call it the Cuban version of Salsa. But Cubans refer
to it as Timba. SALSA is no better than TIMBA is and vice-versa. Each
have their own identity. They're terms/concepts, NOT rhythms like
Bomba or Guaguancs. TIMBA means "party". The term SALSA
was used early on to describe the new york experience in the 60s and
70s, not just musically but the daily life of the latino in the city.
Later on it was then that it began being used to describe all the
rhythms that were being played by most of your bands that emerged
in the USA (primarily New York), Puerto Rico and South America. Cuba
was left out of this process due to the economic embargo. But much
of Cuba's innovations and popular music was maintained and further
developed. << We mix Latin Jazz, Songo, Mambo, Guaracha and so on. >> Latin Jazz and Songo are already mixtures in themselves. When SALSA emerged, Timba was not a part of that process. Again, if you feel that TIMBA is a part of the SALSA concept then that's your opinion.... << You can call Jimmy Bosh`s music Salsa if you ,as well, do it with the music played by old Cuban bands such as Arsenio, La Sonara Matanzera, Benny More, etc. >> What Arsenio, Sonora Matancera and Beny More were playing as not SALSA. At least not what it was referred to as back then. Today you have Oscar D'Leon and Jose Alberto El Canario covering Beny More and Arsenio tunes. You can argue that this is merely Cuban music played in the modern sense. But don't forget the artsits who wrote and arranged original material. Ruben Blades, Willie Colsn, Hector Lavoe, Ismael Rivera and others do not fall into the category of "Cuban Music" performers..... <<
I know in the Salsa scene there are some Brazilian beats and some
others, but I also know they just brought it to say Salsa is a Worldwide
music. >> << To dance to Salsa in Cuba back in the 40`s we didn`t need to bring any Brazilian beat. >> That's great! But the rest of the world isn't Cuba. By any chance, were you around in the 1940s living in Cuba? Because if you were then you know that NOBODY was dancing SALSA in those days simply because there was no SALSA described as either a dance or a music. In Cuba se bailaba Son Montuno style, Guaracha, Rumba, Danzon, etc. << If the 97 Bravo CD by Fania was a Tibute to Juan Formell, it doesn`t not look like that, since they don`t mention his name on the outside credits.It actually looks like a plagio. >> If you would have read my post more carefully you'd realize that I statd that originally, the BRAVO CD was, INTENDED to be a Tribute to Juan Formell of Los Van Van. But becasue of the Miami Mafia, pressure was put on SONY to eliminate any mention of Juan Formell, a cuban national, and eliminate the singers who originally took part in that recording (Lucrecia, Paulito, Pedro Calvo, Isaac Delgado, etc.). << Is so hard to type on the CD ?" This is a tribute to Los Van Van ", as Israel "KANTOR" did in his "real" tribute to LOS VAN VAN. Even more, Israel not even shows his name, but the Fania`s CD just says "FANIA" . What a tribute >> Again, Mr. Lopez, if you know you're people down in Miami, you'd know that no Cuban artist from CUBA is welcome or is to be paid tribute to. You say Israel Kantor doesn't show his name on "his" tribute to LVV. Ask yourself why is that? Isreal Kantor now resides in Florida. Ask him why he hasn't done any LOS VAN VAN songs in public or anymore records in tribute to LVV or anyone else from Cuba? Regardless of there not being a title saying TRIBUTE TO LOS VAN VAN, it is still a tribute the same way every song that's covred is a tribute to the artists who composed the material. When Larry Harlow plays LA CARTERA it's in tribute to Arsenio Rodriguez. He doesn't have to get up and announce it on stage for everyone to hear. Just as Israel Kantor doesn't have to announce Juan Formell's name if he ever had the balls to sing a LVV tune in Miami. Every song that appears on the FAS BRAVO CD has Juan Formell's name listed as the composer, or Cesar Pedroso, who is the Van Van pianist. Perhaps a magnifying glass would be in order next time you listen to the CD and decide to read the credits..... "El Rumbero" January 2, 2002 - Abdel's response to Richie Rumbero In the early 7O`s Fania started the Salsa deal with old cuban music as you can see in the movie Our Latin Thing, they tried to change the formats and the instruments to make it less cuban, what was the best for their business. Salsa as Timba comes straight from the Son. Timba is more than party, Timba is freedom of speech, freedom of formats, team work, any musician could shine on stage not just a pretty face singer, Timba is to keep the same musicians in the band, to make music to dance instead for listening or sale. Salsa is the comercial way of the Son, Timba is the new way of making Son. Salsa is the Son in jail, because the limtis put by companies, Timba is the Son free in the mountains. Salsa is the lion in prison, Timba is the lion in the country, free. Richie , When you said this<< The term Salsa was used early on to describe the New York experience >> (in the 60s and 70s) Why didn`t you say that they started that experience with Sones, Guarachas, Rumbas, Cuban music until they created the Salsa name for sale purposes. And if The 97 Bravo by Fania has the credits should be inside, because outside it doesn`t, I didn`t buy the CD, so I don`t know about the inside. Now, do people need to buy the CD to know is kind of a tribute ? and they will, if they know about music and about Van Van. January 8, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion Everyone, two words "El or La Tropical" (it varies), recent documentary film on "dancing" in Cuba, which references the different dancing rythms. Unlike here in the USA and most on2 dancers everywhere, most salsa dancers only dance salsa or structured dance, that is not so at El Tropical they dance the rythm of whatever the music that is playing is. La Tropical is an outdoor dancehall with a 4,000 person capacity. I admire anyone who gets up, dances and tries their best, but . . . I have seen people dance salsa style to everything including hip hop. >From my view, most on2 dancers really do dance too rigid in a structure. It may appear not be be so, because you see some body movement, however, this is learned body movement not responsive. If you have never danced freestyle, I cannot expect those people to understand. In African dance you have to let go and be free, you do learn steps, but you are told to let go and express yourself, also the dance is very movement and emotion oriented not footwork focused. This is a tough topic. I once took a RMT class at Latin Quarter and I loved that at the end of the class, they did a salsa-soul train line where they told people to just go, respond to the music, do whatever, don't worry about steps, etc. I notice that whenever I compliment a dancer for being responsive to the music and a real mover many times it is someone from Razz M Tazz and I would say that this may be why. School wars, forget about it, it is all dance, my preference or yours that is all, I am eclectic. I am referring to social dancers. Dance company dancers are different because they are picked for their more advanced potential or acomplishment, dedication and are trained differently so one should never compare themselves to that circumstance. Part of great dancing is actually loving the music not just liking it. I know the difference because I like salsa, but - I looooove African, reggae, etc. I cannot listen to the music I love and not respond, when I am at a concert I am moving and holding myself back not to get up at the wrong time. If it is an outdoor event I am dancing, I cannot sit, everyone else can have the seats. It is orgasmic, emotional and totally passionate. This has not happened to me in salsa yet and may never. We should all appreciated and accept each other for our varying levels of social dance, we are not performers, lets not get crazy, some have more dedication than others. I don't believe you should only social dance if are at an advanced level, whatever level if fine. Back to El Tropical, I cannot stress how much I loved this film. This is a dancehall where the dancers come to DANCE, not stand around and pose, judge others, etc. The music is for the dancers, the bands must kick-some ass here and there is a great relationship between the two. The dancers do turn patterns but the weight is in their responsiveness to the music, the dancing is repeated emotional orgasms, the bodies are moving and work it to the music. This is not a place for the squeamish, if you are inhibited and too conservative, stay home or be shocked. If you dance hard dancehall reggae you are getting what I am talkling about and if you only seen it but not danced it, whatever you are thinking you are so wrong. It is sensual, emotional and passionate but not sexual. Now for the Afro-Latino comment, El Tropical is where the working class black Afro-Cubans go and the white Cubans or thinking themselves so or whatever stay away at any soci-ecomonic level (bigotry abounds). This film was an awakening to salsa dancing and Cuban dancing and music, as I had mostly been exposed to the slow drawing sounding type, cut but not my thing. As Ray Baretto said, if it ain't got the African it aint' salsa (referring to NY Salsa). There is a 77 year old woman at El Tropical who has been dancing for life and can put most of us to shame, she really loves the music and to dance to the music and has to dance to the music. As Ballanchine said, I want a dancer who has to dance, not wants to dance. Once again I know the difference, when I have to dance, the music controls me, I cannot stop, I once silently/conflicitingly begged the musicians to end the song during an endless live performance as they can play extremely long and the music is so powerful, because I go into a trance, it feels so good and it and you blissfully wiped out, we all know that feeling. If you see ceremonial/vudu dancing and never experienced that I cannot explain. That is how dance originated ceremonially. I digressed from my original point. See the film and see some dancing. Some of the dancing reminds me of reggae dancing where your body just passionately grooves to the music, you surrender to the music. It is great documentarty and does not bypass the racism or poverty problem, but does not depress, dance is the main thing and the story of the dancers. I looked and thought, I could not imagine most on2 dancers dancing so free. El Tropical has an answer to your questions, but not a resolution. -- From New York On2 who Just Loves to Dance -- La Tropical Overview February 26, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion Who owns salsa?? Having read the debate on why Cuban salsa isn't played more in clubs and the arguments as to which is better, Cuban or New York, it seems to me that the same old issues occur wherever people listen / dance to salsa. I am from England and I have heard this time and time again... An important question is who owns salsa?? There is no doubt that Cuban son had a heavy influence on early salsa but let's remember that the birthplace of the modern sound we recognise as salsa (i.e big bands rather than quartets or quintets) was New York and was a much influenced by Puerto Rican immigrants and the Afro-American jazz scene as it was by Cuban son. Cuban son itself originated from African slaves. As for the dance, the whole idea of formalised partner dances (ballroom) originated in the royal courts of Europe and waas adapted for the latin sound. So, who owns salsa?? Everybody. No country is the birthplace nor can claim to be the 'original and best' salsa. As a dance teacher and musician, I have realised that people prefer to dance to North American and Puerto Rican salsa because of its more energetic sound but prefer to sit down and listen to Cuban styles. Whatever turns you on. As for the most exciting salsa music and dancing coming out now? I would say it is coming from artists who dare to fuse salsa with other sounds - hip-hop (Orishas, from Cuba), African sounds (Africando) or even Arabesque Rai. Salsa is a FUSION so lets not limit ourselves. Ivan from England February 28, 2003 - Ivan's E-mail This is the kind of response I expected from a person from England. Great Britain, the birthplace of Ballroom dancing and unthinking followers of American foreign policy and American pop culture. Other Europeans dance Cuban style salsa. The reason for this is because they are not as willing to accept americanized, colonized, prepackaged versions of Latin dancing. Number
one Certainly, the great Puerto Rican musicians in New York and changed the sound and we might even say innovated the sound. This doesn't mean they created an entirely new music. You say nobody owns salsa. The word "salsa" was invented so that they could own the music. With the new word, they could claim ownership of the music and negate the work of other people that lead up to it. People in New York always say salsa is a concept not a rhythm. Of course, it is a rhythm. It It is the rhythm of Cuban son montuno. But if they admit that then they have to admit it is basically the same music. Nobody owns Salsa. But certainly someone owns the music and record companies. The reason why Cuban music is not popular is because it hardly heard. When Celia Cruz became popular in the United States many people in Cuba didn't know who she was. She became popular with New York salsa. Her music is not Cuban salsa. It is difficult to hear Cuban music because of the American trade embargo. Cuban music is not energetic? What Cuban music are you listening to? Are you talking about the Buena Vista Social Club? That has nothing to do with modern Cuban music. Modern Cuban music was inspired by dancers. I dance to modern Cuban music. But usually if I want to relax, I put on more commericial salsa, gilberto Santa Rosa, Luis Enrique. I think your knowledge of Cuban music is only confined to the Buena Vista Social Club. Orishas are a bunch of Cubans who live in Paris !! The only reason you have heard of them because they have a record deal in Paris !! Orishas are not the great innovators as they seem. They are great. But they are just the outgrowth of Cuban hip-hop and rap scene in Cuba. Rap in Cuba is big only second to the United States. You say
son is from Africa. Let's say you are right for a second (although
you negating the contribution of European music). If son comes from
Africa it came by way of CUBA. Son did not go directly to New York.
Cuba is the most African of Latin Music is always fusion. I agree. You say Africando has innovated salsa music. So, should we call it a new name? What do you call the music of Los Van Van and NG La Banda which had very little influence from New York salsa? Or have you even heard of these groups? When you the world salsa, you should use it to describe a certain type of Afro-Cuban music. Chincub March 6, 2003 - Cuban Music Dear Chincub, Dear oh dear oh dear.... A harmless comment I posted, trying to say that salsa music is a fusion of so many styles, results in some narrow minded (some would say racist) insults about my nationality and the same old tired arguments about Cuban ownership of salsa. Firstly, I would rather you didn't pigeon hole me regarding the fact I am from England. I don't support the war, don't dance ballroom and besides, it has nothing to do with the debate... Anyway, I'm not even English..I was born here but I am part French, part Croatian and part Flemmish, which I guess in your eyes and by your definitions makes me unqualified to talk about anything since I can't claim any original 'true' roots. Secondly, I agree that Cuba had (has) a huge influence on salsa but to state that it is the home of salsa is meaningless. Salsa is a useful label for a large and growing group of styles with various influences. No more, no less. Salsa is not a definition... Well, there you go. I'm off to dance some salsa...Cuban, Puerto Rican, New York, LA, London, Toronto...who knows? And if I forget all these labels, maybe I might even have some fun! -- Ivan March 6, 2003 - Ivan, Perhaps I shouldn't have attacked you personally for the war. I was attacking the culture you were living and I am sorry for that. I was hoping for a little more in the way of your response. It is too bad you didn't address my criticism or examples. Probably they were a bit over your head. When people say that salsa is a concept or a definition, I think they are trying to cover up the fact that they don't know a lot about the music. Your answer is very politically correct. Salsa was taken up by Latinos in the Toronto and the United States as part of their own identity although musically most Latin countries outside the Carribean had little to do with Salsa. By saying Salsa is Cuban and not some kind of Pan-Latin music, they get insulted. They have nothing else to hold on to in North America. I mean would a lot of Canadians or other Latinos go to Peruvian or Chilean music nightclubs? I think not. You are the guy at a party nobody wants to talk. The guy who is super nice but really doesn't know much. Super boring because he can't think for himself. And repeats opinions he hears from other people because they sound right and hurt the least amount of of people. I am okay, you are okay. Let's love each other. Can't we get along? This attitude is not exactly intellectually stimulating. You say Salsa is useful label with a growing number of musis styles. Then you say later, let's forget about labels. You say salsa is a fusion of different music styles. Which music styles? every music style? opera? Chinese opera? Do you mean all music styles? Is Reggae Salsa? You'll probably ignore this question. Then repeat salsa is name of various styles. And that we are narrow minded. And you are tired of the same arguments. And then we should live to live with each other. Then we should be more open minded and give each other a big hug. Who's being closed minded here? What about my comment about the big bands in Cuban? You ignored that. That was a killer. Or is this same tired argument that you think? -- Chincub March 31, 2003 - Cuban music discussion Dear Chincub, I am truly amazed by your insights into my character. I never knew so much could be interpreted from a couple of emails. Well…here’s my interpretation of your arguments. I get the feeling that you are deliberately trying to generate a response by attacking me. First my culture, then me directly. A question for you Chincub. If your arguments are so convincing, why do you insist on such personal attacks? Glad to hear you know so much about what I am like…you must point yourself out next time we are at the same social occasion. I wasn’t aware you partied in London... OK..let’s get back to this lovely debate. Well done on your killer argument about big band Cuban salsa. The trouble here Chincub is that you offer nothing that can’t be found out from a few choice books on salsa history and a few discographies. I know this because I have read them too. Well done on regurgitating a few historical ‘facts’ out of their historical and cultural contexts. If you want counter arguments to your chosen facts, just look at this site and read other people’s responses on the history of salsa. They have argued it far better than I ever will, because I am not a historian. However, I am an anthropologist by training and my academic argument would be that cultural change is a two way process – ideas, dances, cultures and philosophies emerge from places (multiple places sometimes), they travel, they pick-up other influences, they mutate and then they sometimes travel back. Salsa is a perfect example of this. If you look at salsa as a cultural phenomenon, you will see that it has a such a broad range of influences and roots (both historically and geographically) that to call salsa Cuban is meaningless and limiting. You can’t trace salsa to a single event, a single country, a single origin. To do so is to hijack a movement for your own purposes and insult Puerto Ricans, Africans and Americans in the process. This is not political correctness, it is a fact, it is my argument. I have no desire to appease anyone for the sake of it Chincub, least of all someone who I am never likely to meet. I am not trying to placate anyone. If letting rip was necessary, I would do it. If you presented ideas worth debating rather than your box of facts, I would debate them. You are trapping yourself in semantics Chincub. Salsa is a very useful badge for a group of styles. It’s easily accessible and people like nice, simplistic terms that they can label things with… but when you dig deeper, you realise that it is not actually that useful. So, the conclusion of my argument is if you want to talk about salsa, let’s talk about a multicultural movement with broad roots...not a specific Cuban musical or dance style. If you want to talk about history, you are going to need more labels Chincub – here are some for you to start with - plena, bomba, rumba, son, cha cha, mambo, pachanga, cumbia. Argue about those but leave salsa alone….oh and try to make it less personal next time. -- Ivan April 1, 2003 - response to Ivan Ivan, Let's keep it simple and impersonal. You are not a historian, but you feel the right to talk about the roots of salsa music. You are right when you say others have argued better than you about the supposed diverse origins of salsa music. Too bad you just repeat what they say without having the knowledge to back it up. But none of these people would dare to suggest the Cuba did not have big bands. Where did you get this information? Which book did you get this information? How can you say that there were only quartets and quintets? Even people who would support your argument would laugh at this suggestion. Where did you get this information? which book? which article? -- Chincub April 4, 2003 - response to Ivan A degree in anthropology, doesn't make you an anthropologist. Academics are very careful about what they say about areas they don't know about. And Ivan, you don't anything about Cuban music. You are making people you support your position look bad. Even if you say Salsa comes from many places and influences, how can you say that there were no big bands in Cuba? Is it just a feeling you have and you went with it? I tried
to find a non-biased book to convince you. I chose pg.57 Gigante means big in Spanish, Ivan. They already had a septeto (7), but they added more band members. New York
salseros who know Latin music well have heard of pg. 59 Manu
Cubans tried to copy the Jazz big bands of the day This conjunto set up became the basis of modern salsa bands. Beny More's and Arsenio Rodriguez normally had more than 10 band members. Is that not big enough for you? These weren't any fringe groups. These were the most popular bands of their day. Big bands in this era were the rule rather than the exception. This was the era of rum, casinos, gangsters and decadence in Cuba. Do you think quartets and quintets entertained tha gangsters in La Habana? Haven't you seen Godfather 2? Do you know what Orquesta means? Does that mean small to you? Orquesta Aragon and Orquesta America were very big bands of their day and toured extensively in the United States. Celia Cruz sang with Sonora Matancera in Cuba. Do you think she sang with a quartet? Groups that developed in the 1970's and 80's with very little influence from New York were BIG groups. Have you heard of Los Van Van, NG La banda, Orquesta Reve, Orquesta Anaconda? You are basing your knowledge of Cuban music on the Buena Vista Social club. Most Cubans were suprised at the popularity of this kind of music. Eliades Ochoa and and Cuarteto Patria are more popular outside Cuba than within Cuba because Cubans are more used to more urban, big band music. Ibrahim Ferrer, "Guajiro" Mirabal and Ruben Gonzalez were all part of the BIG BANDs in Cuba at one time or another. Your position would be laughable if you were a salsa dance teacher of some kind. Other people have to "unteach" fallacies you have taught your students. And you are so prejudiced to learn more about music. Maybe salsa is from New York or from everywhere as you said. But saying that Cuba didn't have big bands is just ridiculous and wrong. -- Mechy April 9, 2003 - Cuban music I think that the cubans should be very grateful to the puertoricans and other latin people, since they have been showing Cuban music to the entire world. Thanks to FANIA the whole world know about "LA GUANTANAMERA", Thanks to El Gran Combo people know about "A LA LOMA DE BELEN", thank to Pappo Luca we all know about "FUEGO EN EL 23". All these people have been taken Cuban music where the cubans couldn`t take for political reasons. Tito Puente, after traveling to Cuba in the 50`s quit playing the vibe and started playing the timbales as the best cuban did, Thanks to Tito the mambo still alive !!!!!!!! Here I bring some Cuban song that have been played for some other latin guys: 1- FUEGO EN EL 23. ( from Arsenio, played by La Sonora Poncen`a). April 10, 2003 - Cuban music I would like to share with you all a comment made by Tito Puente on an interview made by Steven Loza on the book "TITO TO PUENTE AND THE MAKE OF LATIN MUSIC". << Steven Loza: How did this thing mix ? You Know, the Puerto Ricans and the Cubans ? Did it come together very easily ? What was that all about ? Tito Puente: It came very (easily) because the Puerto Ricans are very good musicians too. The Cubans have their own style of music; that`s what we play, really. We`re not playing Puerto Rican music, because Puerto Rican music is la bomba, la plena; they had their own typical music in the island...>> On another question Tito responds : << As I grew older I became a big-band leader, (and) There is antoher comment by Mongo Santamaria in the Latin Beat Magazine of this month (april) Mongo: " I played with Tito puente the same compositions that, now, are called salsa. Celia singed in Cuba, in the 40`s and the 50`s, Facundo, Bemba Colora, El Yerbero Moderno, all those songs that if you all want to call them salsa, it is ok, but it is really afrocuban music. In a concert people play son, guaguanco o guajira, but they don`t identify each rhythm, everything is called salsa, even a merengue. How come that is possible ? >> It doesn`t matter how many Puerto Ricans are playing salsa, it`s still Cuban music. A lot of Puerto Ricans are playing merengue, but it doesn`t make the merengue a Puerto Rican music, the merengue still Dominican. If somebody want to find out about the TIMBALES palyed by old Cuban band I recommend to check the book written in 1952 called "Los Instrumentos De La Musica Afrocubana" by Don Fernando Ortiz, and you can even see a picture made in 1927 of a Cuban band with the timbales. Or find out about "Pascualito" an old and great Cuban timbalero. -- Pury April 10, 2003 - Cuban music discussion. Here is some words by "LA GUARACHERA DEL MUNDO" Celia Cruz about the salsa thing issue. "Today we call it Salsa, but before we use to call the music what it was, rumba, guaracha, guaguanco, mambo, cha-cha-cha, guajira, and bolero. These are the folkloric rhythms of my country. These are the different rhythms that exist in Cuba. These are the styles that I use to sing with La Sonora Matancera..... Neither can we deny that many of these bands were rummaging through many songs that, I myself didn't know, were Cuban in origin. In New York many earned a living doing this. After a few decades the term salsa was coined. Even though no one can really claim they invented the term Salsa, the first time I heard it was in Venezuela. It was a local broadcaster by the name of Danilo who in 1967 invited me to his radio show titled La Hora De La Salsa. The music he played was performed by La Sonora Matancera, Celio Gonzalez, and other Cuban groups. However, no one can deny that the music was heavily supported by Puerto Rican musicians. In fact, today the term Salsa was adopted by the bands in Cuba because, to play "Cuban music" was deemed old. I'm certain that this bickering will continue, but those who know, including those who are creating the argument, know what the music is and where it comes from. I don't argue about that because we are all earning a living from performing the music. Remember that El Rey, Tito Puente, would get upset whenever anybody referred to Cuban music as Salsa. He would tell you ‘Salsa is something you eat...this is Afro-Cuban music’, and he was Puerto Rican." Tito Puente, also, said: << There is no salsa music. They just put that word to the music that we were doing all the time, the mambo, the cha-cha-cha, the merengue: they called it "salsa". Salsa is a condiment of food. You eat salsa. You don`t listen to it. You don`t dance to it, you know? It became a popular word and all American people..."Tito could you play me a salsa ?" So I said, "Do you have a headache? I`ll give you an Alka-Seltzer. You know something like that...Salsa is actually the condiment that you put on food. "Salsa tomate", tomate sauce, spaghetti sauce. The mexicans have been using the world "salsa" for centuries. Mexican salsa all the time, the hot salsa, you know, for tamales. So they gave it to the music, you know to give it heat. It makes it exciting. It`s easy for everybody to say. You know even in my concerts I always tell everybody, "Now you know, we`re gonna play for you salsa!" "OHHH! It`s the same mambo I`ve been playing for forty years." FROM "TITO PUENTE AND THE MAKING OF LATIN MUSIC" -- Valerio April 11, 2003 - Cuban music. To those people who want to diminish the Cuban Music and refuse to recognize the truth or to whom it may concern. How come is it possible someone can say old cuban music bands didn`t have timbales ??????? I`m pretty sure you haven`t heard those old bands, if that guy can`t recognize a timbal`s sound listen to the singer of "ORQUESTA DE JULIO GUTIERRES", in the 40`s, and hear how he mentions, in one of the songs, the timbal and talk to the timbal player. I would like to inform you that I am a Cuban-American, born in USA and who is extremely proud of Cuban culture, musical heritage and his people’s economic accomplishments in the United States. According to Mr. Earl Shores, an American writer, no other group of newcomers in the United States has ever moved so quickly from rags to riches. I’m writing this letter because I am extremely upset over the total disinformation and lack of respect shown by other Latin ethnic groups, towards the plagiarism of Cuban culture and specially music. There are few others Latin-American countries (not to mention by name) has also taken advantage of cultural and musical censorship the U.S has imposed on Cuba since the early sixties to reap the benefits of our creative people. I don’t mind people from others countries play our music, however, I have a serious problem when I hear this imitators referring to our music as so called “LATIN-MUSIC, SALSA,” or playing Puerto Ricans as theirs. Cuba, in case you are not aware, has influenced a large part of the Western World, musically. Apparently, this seems to bother a lot of people of different ethnicities; proof ot this is that every time a Cuban rhythm is played on Spanish radio, or TV., there always seems to be some type of sinister plot by the Spanish media to not link, the name of Cuba with the rhythm played. Today, all over Latin-America, people have adopted Cuban slang, and Cuban way of dance, to enrich their poor musical repertoire, but never is there any homage or recognition given to the name of Cuba for these contributions. Recently, I washed the Puerto Rican parade and I was disgusted to hear Mrs. Gilda Miros the anchor woman who narrate the parade (1992) WPIJ channel 11 continuously, refer to Rumbas, cha-cha-cha, and Mambos, that were being played by various bands on the parade floats as music from Puerto Rico as it happen in every parade, every year. It is disinformation like this that is going to hurt the youth of Puerto Rico, who are been given a false culture and sense of identity. On the same day or the Puerto Rican parade, one of the chiefs plagiarists of Cuban music, like Larry Harlow, as well Rafael Ithier, had the “galls” on national TV. to say that he was seriously influenced by Puerto Rican music and that Puerto Rico without a doubt was a Capital of the Mambo, cha-cha-cha. This statement was made by an individual who literally, slept with a short wave radio next to his ears, so that he could steal nearly every composition that some Cuban created. Puerto Ricans has to be very grateful to Fidel Castro of no competing with Cubans in the musical and tourist world and last but not least, their newly acquired culture. Many people who read this letter will say that this is divisive, racist and offensive; but it is myself and my fellow Cubans who should be offended by the continuous disinformation and censorship of certain ethnic groups, have towards any Cuban musical accomplishment. At one Fania All Star concert at Madison Square Garden, I observed
how this guy Sanabria paid tribute to every country in Latin America
with the exception of Cuba. These imitators when they are interviewed by a non Cuban reporter and asked the origin of the music they are playing, they seem to get amnesia and say...it’s is music from Africa or from the barrios of N.Y.C. Before I sign off let me ask this: Why whenever a non-Cuban musician is asked, who has influenced then musically, the answer is usually like this ...Cortijo, Ismael Rivera, El Gran Combo etc. etc. then I ask, ...WHO INFLUENCE THESE INDIVIDUALS...?? -- Karioca April 11, 2003 - About the TIMBALES in Cuban Music I really can`t believe that people without any knowledge about Cuban music is coming here with such a comment. (I say that because someone post here that old cuban bands didn`t have timbales). I just went to descarga.com and got this cd`s review to prove he is all wrong : (just read the name of the songs and find "A GOZAR TIMBERO", the timbal player were Marcelino Valdes and Guillermo Barreto). Israel "Cachao" Lopez Reviews: Song titles include: Guajeo De Saxos 2:19 Musicians include: April 12, 2003 - (Cuban music in toronto) That is not son or salsa, the son is based on the rhythm of the claves and bongoes and triple, these are cuban-origen instruments that were developed much later in Cuba. Besides, before the son was the changui !!!!!! -- Valerio April 16, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion Dear Chincub and Mechy (an astounding tag team ) Sorry for the delay in continuing our discussion. I had to so some more homework for a few quotes: Just to help you guys with your learning, here are the books and websites I consulted: Gerard, Charley (1998). Salsa: The Rhythm of Latin Music (Performance in World Music Series, No. 3). Steward, Sue (1999). Salsa: Musical Heartbeat of Latin America. Thames and Hudson. ISBN 050028153X. www.salsa-merengue.co.uk www.salsamagazine.com Ok, here we go…. Mechy wrote: "Maybe salsa is from New York or from everywhere as you said. But saying that Cuba didn't have big bands is just ridiculous and wrong" Just to clarify, nowhere did I write Cuba had no big bands. I was comparing sounds of New York and Cuba. I need to clear up my use of the term big band. Sorry, I should have said Big Band (with capitals), just to make it clear that I was referring to a type of jazz sound. With narrow minded world views like yours, it was perhaps naïve of me to expect this knowledge from you. What we know as salsa today originated in El Barrio in New York – Spanish Harlem. The movement was called Nu Yorican and was a mixture of Puerto Rican, Cuban and yes…..Big Band jazz sounds. This was the sound of Fania Records, championed by artists such as Willie Colon and a response to the sounds of Rock and Roll (the Beatles and the Rolling Stones), which were killing Latin music. Salsa gave the Latin world an identity again. Izzy Sanábria worked at Fania Records, which was then regarded as the Latin Motown. He was one of the big players in the New York Latin music scence. Here is a quote from the man himself: "Salsa is Latin Soul. Salsa is Flavor and Spice. Salsa es Ritmo! Rhythm, the basis of Salsa. African slaves brought their rhythms to the Caribbean, mixed with the Indian, European melodies, Spanish lyrics and gave birth to Latin music. The sons and daughters came here, mixed in the high energy of New York, the influence of Jazz, added in some brass, and Salsa was born!" (I always added that Salsa’s rhythmic origins were Cuban, but that it was the young Puerto Ricans that developed and kept it alive in New York City). The cradle of Salsa as we know it today was New York city during the 1970s. The reason most Hispanic music historians have such little information of the 1970s (and its movement) is because the Spanish media completely ignored that era. More on this topic later. First, I'm quite sure I know a great deal less about the histories of our music (or music in general for that matter) than most of those writers do. However, if you weren't a part of the music and cultural movement in New York during the 70s, you cannot feel or fully understand what it was like to paint an accurate picture with the right information. I lived it, I helped create it and was in the center of it all seven days a week. So no matter how well they may have researched this period, it is still second-hand information. There were just too many details that even those in the music industry weren't aware of. Musicians for example were busy creating the music but played no role in promoting the name Salsa. In fact, as the term Salsa started to catch on, most serious musicians resented and resisted having their music labeled as such." Just to set the record straight, I never claimed to have coined the word Salsa, or used it first (I’m too young). My claim to fame is being first to see the potential of the word as a marketing tool to promote New York’s Latin music (and hopefully my magazine "Latin NY" along with it). I had always felt that "Latin Music" was too broad a term (for the sound being created by Latino New Yorkers) and that it needed its own name like Jazz, Rock & Roll, Disco, R&B, Blues, etc., in order to define and identify it as an entity unto itself. A new name and image was needed that people could get excited about and be able to relate to. Salsa was easy enough for anyone to pronounce and, remember. I thought Salsa was just perfect." (from www.salsamagazine.com) You see Chincub, the salsa we know today has roots in Cuba and Puerto Rico but was born in New York under the influence of jazz. Fania Records, artists such as Eddie Palmieri, Willy Colon and Ruben Blades, radio stations and clubs in New York kept salsa going. I need to address a few of your comments: You write: ‘Certainly, the great Puerto Rican musicians in New York and changed the sound and we might even say innovated the sound.’ Thanks for backing me up. Couldn’t have said it better. In one of your earlier fabulous arguments you wrote: ‘I mean would a lot of Canadians or other Latinos go to Peruvian or Chilean music nightclubs?’ You argue against yourself here. No they wouldn’t because those are very local sounds which require you growing up with them to really appreciate them. It would be like me asking you to get into Irish folk music, which has a much narrower range of influences and is therefore less accessible. Salsa IS pan-latin, whether you like it or not. With so many latin and jazz influences, how can it not appeal to a wide audience? People listen to music they can associate with in some way – a sound, a message, lyrics…... Another from you: ‘The reason why Cuban music is not popular is because it hardly heard’ Not true. Just to clarify, my knowledge (and record collection) goes beyond Buena Vista. We have lots of Cuban bands who come to London and the shops are stacked full of Cuban artists. Some DJs play it…but not many….because people prefer New York and Puerto Rican sounds. Why….it has wider appeal because of wider influences. You asked me: "You say salsa is a fusion of different music styles. Which music styles? every music style? opera? Chinese opera? Do you mean all music styles? Is Reggae Salsa?" I said it was a fusion of styles, not a fusion of all styles, plus I said it was a fusion of Puerto Rican, Cuban and jazz sounds. I don’t recall mentioning chinese opera or reggae… Finally, you wrote: "Orishas are a bunch of Cubans who live in Paris !!" And you are a Chinese Cuban living in Canada! Does that diminish your contribution in any way?? I was using Orishas to show that some of the most cutting edge music occurs when bands and sounds move out their original settings and feed off other sounds and cultural influences. Isn’t that how salsa started in the first place?? it's a shame your multi-cultural background hasn't shaped your thinking a bit. Is there some anti-US venom which is laeding to hijack salsa for political reasons?? You wouldn't be the first..... Chincub and Mechy, you have both agreed that Puerto Rican musicians had a massive influence and that modern salsa can be traced to New York. You have even made my arguments for me sometimes. Please stop nit-picking over the fact that I compared New York and Cuban salsa and said New York had a big band sound. Listen to Spanish Harlem Orchestra to see what I mean. I didn’t say Cuba had no big bands. Please stop assuming that I base my entire knowledge of Cuban music on Buena Vista social club….I had Los Van Van albums years before. Go away and read some books, check out a few websites and learn to appreciate salsa for the pan-latin phenomenon it is. Try to understand that music, like culture, flows in many ways and in many directions. You’ll all be happier people for it and stop making personal attacks. I've noticed that in whatever forums you debate in, you make inflammatory comments. It is always good to challenge people’s views, but only when you have something worth saying…. Signing off one last time, Ivan April 17, 2003 - Cuban music discussion (response to Ivan) Vaya Ivan you hit it right on the nose Papa. You & Izzy Sanabria
are correct when you say that you had to live it & experience
NYC Back in the 60's & 70's to fully understand Salsa. I'm also
a product from that era. No book in the world or historian can capture
what occured back then. In fact there are many Cubans living in El
Barrio/Spanish Harlem that know Salsa is from NYC. They would never
denied NY/PR the credit it desrves & rightfully so. My Cubanos
hermanos would also let everyone know that it's roots are from Cuba
& rightfully so. **Ivan your post belongs in the history of Salsa
section. So do me & you & the salseros a favor & re-post
it on the history of Salsa section since this is a Cuban discussion
section. May 26, 2003 - Cuban music Hey guys, wow, some heavy discussion there. Anyway, I just want to put in my two cents. I love Cuban music and am a bit sad that in most clubs you hear almost no Cuban. I am a an African Canadian and I live in Japan. I deejay at sasla parties occasionally and always put on my fare share of Timba. I have been fortunate enough to see some great concerts here in Japan. I saw Bamboleo, Charanga Habanera twice, Haila with Cubanismo, Isaac Delgado, and Adalberto Alvarez all in Japan. At the moment I am listening to the new Yumuri, Issac, Cesar Perdoso`s collection, Adalberto Alvarez, La rumba soy yo compilation, Aramis Galindo, Mayito y su Trabuco, and of course Los Van Van etc. BTW how is the Clan 537 CD? Generally is is fairly easy to find Cuban music in Japan, but I can`t find thise one. Also lemme know of some other current must have Cuban releases -- Jimmy June 24, 2003 -- Cuban Music Discussion I just discovered this site by accident the other day, and I must
say I find it extremely helpful for the Salsa-loving community. However,
I must confess that I was shocked when I saw the hot debates going
on here about Cuban and Non-Cuban Salsa, as well as dance styles,
the Timba issue... "Cuba y Puerto Rico son Let the truth be. July 2, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion (response to Jimmy) I haven't heard Clan 537 myself but at Descarga.com it is recommended and highly recommended for those who like urban hip-hop. Have you listened to Orishas? They are excellent Cuban hip-hop. I have both A Lo Cubano and Emigrante. They are CDs without any weak songs. For dancing casino/son I like from A Lo Cubano '1.9.9.9' (based on Chappottin's Telaraña), and 'Mística'. Songs like 'A Lo Cubano' and 'Represent' are great, if not salsa, and '537 C.U.B.A' is a fantastic song that takes the music from 'Chan Chan' and describes the pain of the Cuban exiles. From Emigrante DJs here are playing 'Guajiro', really fun to dance to. If you like cha-cha-cha there's 'El Rey De La Pachacha' also on Emigrante. Also I recommend the new Charanga Habanera 'Soy Cubano, Soy Popular' if you haven't already bought it. -- Michelle July 16, 2003 - Cuban music discussion Message: What you claim to be salsa is not salsa, it is Son. Cubans can take credit for the Son but not for Salsa. Here are some of the many differences: 1. Son is slower; BTW, the origins of the Danzon is French; Casino Rueda originated as a way to dance to Cha-Cha-Cha. As a Puerto Rican, I am really getting fed up with the lack of acknowledgement and recognition that has been accorded to us by Cubans like you. 99.9% of the musicians in Salsa are Puerto Ricans and Nuyoricans. We took your Son and created something totally knew and different, something that had never ever been heard in Cuba before. Try finding a song in 1950s Cuba that even remotely sounds like "Sonido Bestial" (Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz) or "Timbalero" (Colon/Lavoe). Good luck. Oye Cubano, why don't you thank Africa, Haiti, France and Spain for their influences? Cuba did not create their music out of a vacuum. -- Roberto July 18, 2003 - Response to Ivan Ivan, Ivan. The reason why Cubans started making big bands was in respond
to the Big Bands in the United States. Why do you assume it was the
Puerto Ricans who introduced the Big Band sound to Latin music? If
they did ? Why did it take so long? Charlie Parker and Miles Davis changed Jazz forever. But it is still called Jazz. The New York Puerto Ricans may have innovated clave based music. But it is still Afro-Cuban popular music. Is salsa really Pan Latin music? Then why do so few Latin countries
produce original salsa music? Why do most South American dislike or
don't know how to dance salsa? What are the contributions of Chile
and Argentina to salsa music ? Jazz is not Latin music. You have Los Van Van CDs. Wow !! Do you know groups that become popular after 1990's? Don't go look it up now !! I doubt very much that you know much about Cuban music because you consider Orishas an innovative group. Orishas is an outgrowth of rap and hip hop scene in Cuba. Rap is very big in Cuba. -- Chincub July 23, 2003 - Cuban music discussion Chincub, If anybody is qualified to give their viewpoint on Salsa it would definitely be Izzy, a NY Puertorican-Cuban who lived through the 1970s Salsa era. Izzy's opinion carries more weight than the obsure writers that you have mentioned. Steward and Gerald come across as self-proclaimed "experts" who have arrived at premature conclusions on a cultural movement without fully exploring the issues and the history. I suggest you do some more research and try to refrain from making such baseless statements as "Salsa is Cuban music". Cubans were not the first ones to explore Jazz. Prior to people like Mario Bauza, Chano Pozo and Frank Grillo arriving to U.S., there was a large group of Puertorican musicians that were playing in American Jazz bands. The most notable of these bands was Colonel James Reese Europe and the Harlem Hellfighter's Band in the early 1900s. This was the first and earliest recording of Latinos in Jazz. This band travelled all over Europe during the early 19th century and were credited with being the first U.S. band to introduce Jazz to Europe. James Reese Europe travelled to PR to recruit black musicians trained in municipal bands. One of those individuals was the beloved Puertorican composer Rafael Hernandez. There were big bands in the 1970s: Tito Puente, Ray Barretto, Eddie Palmieri are just a few of the many orchestras that personified the "big band sound". There were no Cuban big bands in the 1970s that I am aware of. At that time Cuban bands were playing Mozambique and Songo. In actuality, the term Afro-Cuban is on the decline in terms of a category to describe Salsa music. The correct and more proper term that "Afro-Carribbean". This makes more sense because Salsa is not a musical genre native to Cuba like Songo or Pilon is, its musicians are all primarily Puertorican, it incorporates other non-Cuban carribbean influences, and also because it was created in New York giving it that classic urban and aggressive sound. Salsa's only connection to Cuba is that it uses the Son as a musical blueprint, apart from that there is nothing that is natively Cuban about it. Salsa is historically an expression of Nuyorican/Puertorican culture with a tendency towards Pan-Latin politics. Just because salsa has the clave that does not mean it is Cuban music. In fact, if you want to pursue that line argument then I kindly point out to you that clave is from West Africa. In fact, seeing as you have read the Sue Steward book, why don't you go to the African roots section and read the statement by a world-renowned Zairean musician who bluntly says that all Cuban music is really African music. BTW, there is also clave in Flamenco music but no one calls it Cuban music. If you made that statement people would laugh at you. Mambo is not 100% Cuban. The roots of the Mambo can be traced back to HAITIAN VOODOO RITUALS. It was the mass exodus of Haitian refugees who fled their country's revolution, along with French colonialists, and came to Cuba, that provided the blueprint for the Mambo. In fact, the word Mambo refers to a priest or priestess who is in conversation with Voodoo gods. It is funny that you mention rap and hip-hop because here is another area where NY Puertoricans have played a pioneering role. It was NY African-Americans and Puertoricans that established the foundations of rap back in the 1970s. While Cubans were experimenting with Songo and Mozambique, NY Puertoricans at the time like Miguel Pinero and the Nuyorican Poet's Cafe, were creating the sounds of hip-hop. -- Roberto July 25, 2003 - Cuban salsa discussion Response to Roberto's comments: Ok, this is what you said about the differences between Son and Salsa:
"1. Son is slower; 2. Son has a very twangy country-bumpkin sound
to it; 3. Son does not have an aggressive sound; 4. Son does not use
trombones; 5. Son lyrics are pretty empty for the most part - you
would never have lyrics like the lyrics in Pedro Navaja in a Cuban
son; 6. Son is alot simpler and not as complicated; 7. Son has next
to no influence of American Jazz; 8. Son is a label that is given
to Afro-Spaniard music that has been copied by Cubans." You also said: "BTW, the origins of the Danzon is French", yes, that's true, the origins are French (la contra-danza), we don't deny it, but the rhythm called Danzon was made in Cuba.No one can deny that. You wrote: "Casino Rueda originated as a way to dance to Cha-Cha-Cha." What's this??????? What's your point? You said: "As a Puerto Rican, I am really getting fed up with
the lack of acknowledgement and recognition that has been accorded
to us by Cubans like you." You also said: "99.9% of the musicians in Salsa are Puerto Ricans and Nuyoricans." Ok, what Salsa are you talking about? What's this? Just in case, don't forget all the Cuban musicians who were residents in the US by then and probably gave you a much-needed hand in that. "We took your Son and created something totally knew and different" Great! Some recognition "something that had never ever been heard in Cuba before." This is an exageration. I credit the creativity, but let's not exagerate. "Try finding a song in 1950s Cuba that even remotely sounds
like "Sonido Bestial" (Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz) or "Timbalero"
(Colon/Lavoe). Good luck." You said: "Oye Cubano, why don't you thank Africa, Haiti, France
and Spain for their influences? Cuba did not create their music out
of a vacuum." The Cuban People. July 27, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion Response to Roberto: I think that things don't become clear or people don't arrive to any consensus in these discussions because there are lots of misundertandings and innacurate assumptions made. For example, Roberto, I have noticed that in your attempts to descredit Cuban music you often turn to the argument that this or that Cuban rhythm is not purely Cuban because its roots are somewhere else. e.g.You said: "Just because salsa has the clave that does not mean it is Cuban music. In fact, if you want to pursue that line argument then I kindly point out to you that clave is from West Africa. In fact, seeing as you have read the Sue Steward book, why don't you go to the African roots section and read the statement by a world-renowned Zairean musician who bluntly says that all Cuban music is really African music. Mambo is not 100% Cuban. The roots of the Mambo can be traced back to HAITIAN VOODOO RITUALS." If you follow this line, you would have to end up denying also that any Puerto Rican or Nuyorican music is authentically theirs because you'll realize that it all has their roots somewhere else. Almost all the music that Afro-american , Afro-caribbean and Afro-southamerican people have made has its roots in Africa, especially West Africa. Jazz has its roots there, and so do blues, reggae and a legion of Afro-latin rhythms. When Cubans say that something is Cuban, we mean that we have created something NEW as the result of the mix of the so many rhythms brought in our island by the different African nations that coincided there (a lot more nations than in Puerto Rico, and a lot more blacks from different African nations too), along with the european and even north american. For example, you said that Mambo was not 100% Cuban, that it had its roots in haiti, but: Do you hear in Haiti nowadays anything like the Cuban Mambo? The fact that there is something called "Cuban Music" is unrefutable, because we have a distinctive rhythm and have also added to it our national spirit, our Cuban character, our culture. That's why we can talk about Cuban music, Puerto Rican music, Venezuelan music, Colombian music, etc, because in the process of formation of our national identities we have come up with something recognizably distinctive from what surrounds us. If you go to page 546 of the already mentioned Rough Guide to World music vol.1, you'll be able to see a prominent African using the term Cuban music, recognizing it's different. You'll also read in that page that the Cuban clave has its roots in Mande music. That clave takes the name Cuban clave, when it is placed in a different context, fulfilling a different fuction. You pointed out that "Salsa's only connection to Cuba is that it uses the Son as a musical blueprint, apart from that there is nothing that is natively Cuban about it.", but for God's sake!!!, if "your" salsa didn't have our Son (and our Mambo and our Cha Cha Cha, etc) it would have NEVER been what it is. The Son is the ESSENCE of what your salsa is. You are carefull to use the word "natively" as to continue discrediting these Cuban rhythms that form the core of "your" salsa. If I followed your same pattern of argument, I could discredit right now your salsa as not being an original Puerto Rican/Nuyorican creation because it has its roots in Cuban Son and other rhythms that are not "natively Cuban". See how you fall in a trap? People also forget how much of Cuban rumba there is in Salsa, and Rumba is, by far, one of the most innovative creations made by Cubans to the mix of African and Spanish percussion. You insist that Cuban music is pretty much African or somewhere else's, but you don't say the same about Puerto Rican or Nuyorican, and it should be, following that line, right? You wrote "There were no Cuban big bands in the 1970s that I am aware of. At that time Cuban bands were playing Mozambique and Songo." Not just that, but also Son, Rumba, Changui, Charanga, Guajira, Boleros, Conga, Mambo and Cha Cha Cha, and although the last two were not big on mainstream they've always remained a part of our repertoire.
I'd like to leave stating a few equations: Take care everyone, and if you can understand Spanish well, I recommend you to check out the lyrics of the Cuban Timba song "Esto te pone la cabeza mala", by Los Van Van, that talks about the roots of Cuban music. Chao. El Conguero August 4 , 2003 - Ivan's e-mail about Cuban music Ivan, People prefer to sit down for Cuban music? Are you nuts? When you mentioned Orishas and Africando as innovative groups, I know who have no idea about Cuban music. Hip and Hop and rap have always big in Cuba even surpassing salsa's popularity for young people in Cuba long before Orishas. Africando were not the first to put African sounds to Salsa. The Buena Vista Social club were supposed to jam sessions of Cuban and Senegalese musicians. The cultural exchanges between Cuba and Africa has been clearly much closer than let's say New York and Africa. You only know the music the music companies allow you to hear and then you consider it innovative. I didn't know Cubans just sit down and listen to La Charanga Habanera or Issac Delgado. Songo which is the forerunner to timba was inspired by the movements of the dancers. Cuban music has always been closely connected to dancing. Whereas salsa music especially after the 1980's has lost this connection. It began to sound like romantic pap. Most Cuban musicians and dancers find salsa music boring. Timba is more a challenge to dance and it more interesting sections, different rhythms. Salsa is the same throughout the entire song. For me salsa is for sitting and timba or Cuban music is for dancing. -- Alex August 7, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion To everyone!! Cubans to the left of me, Puerto Rican's to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you.... It has certainly been a heated discussion and highly educational - I've learned more from this thread than any book on the history of salsa. This thank you even goes out to Chincub, Mechy and the Cuban People, despite the insults (oh...the Cuban People - nice to see you talking on behalf of an entire nation - how does one go about this - is some sort of UN thing?). I wish your tones were less aggressive, then we might swap ideas and facts rather than make cheap shots. I would genuinely love to learn more about this music - I am not trying to be nice for the sake of it (Chincub!) It seems that people have drawn their battle lines firmly in the sand and are sticking to them, with the debate generally degenerating. It sometimes feels like both sides are desperate to stamp salsa as theirs. I think this shows just how difficult the term salsa is and how unhelpful it is once you scratch beneath the surface. El Conguero makes some useful points: 'That's why we can talk about Cuban music, Puerto Rican music, Venezuelan music, Colombian music, etc, because in the process of formation of our national identities we have come up with something recognizably distinctive from what surrounds us' It is clear that Cuba, Puerto Rico and New York all played fundamental parts in shaping modern salsa. It is also clear that each of these has a different sound, shaped by the cultural and musical melting pots that they all are. Salsa is a multi-cultural, multi-national musical genre. I said before that it was pan-latin, which I admit I now have to take back. I think this was stretching it. I do still feel that Afro-Carribean is a more useful description than Afro-Cuban and given the evidence, I also still feel that calling salsa Cuban is pushing it.! Maybe we should be slightly less worried about the past of salsa (we could argue all day with no real progress) and more concerned about the present and the future of salsa music (if we don't then we might have some nightmarish revival of Salsa Romantica ;-) I see that Chincub has made some good arguments in other threads about most salsa dancers not appreciating salsa music. At least this thread shows that there are a few people out there with interests that go a little further. We should try to encourage people to learn about salsa roots, but carrying on with Cuban v Puerto Rican v New York debates will only make use look like a bunch of geeks and put people off learning more.... Food for thought, Ivan August 13, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion To Alex, Congratulations on a useful thread (!?), which added absolutely nothing to the discussion. At least Chincub's posts are sometimes educational... I used Orishas and Africando as EXAMPLES. I don't mean them to be the be all and end all of Cuban hip-hop or African salsa. I used them because they are moderately well known and, whatever you say, are great bands and fuse different styles very well. Whether or not they are the first or best examples (I wasn't arguing for either of these) belongs on another thread, but to deny that they show how versatile salsa is and in which directions it might be going (the original point of the examples) is idiocy. Here's a thought for you - maybe Orishas and Africando are popular worldwide because they are good?? Shocking idea I know. It's a shame you are so cynical that you believe that any band who is popular these days must be the product of evil marketing. The bottom line is that such bands have received critical acclaim from many areas. Do us all a favour and keep your trainspotting tendencies to yourself. I get the feeling there is an element of musical snobbery in a large number of the people who post here. The kind of people who look down on others because they don't own the entire Beny More back catalogue. This only serves to alienate people. After all, most people listen / dance to salsa because it is fun! -- Ivan August 29, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion, response to Everyone Time to start calling things what they are! November 10, 2003 - Chincub, For someone who is not "traditionally" and "authentically" Cuban you sure speak alot of nonsense. I must say that is always the NON-CUBANS in these discussion forums who distort and misinterpret Cuban culture; they give real Cubans a bad name. You said Mexico has no salsa/mambo tradition? You forget how Mexico was the center of the Mambo craze way before it became fashionable in North America. You forget that Perez Prado lived and recorded from Mexico, you forget that most Cuban bands played and recorded in Mexico - there is a song by Celiz Cruz whose chorus goes "Mexico lindo baila y canta mi guaguanco" - the songs talk about how she loves watching Mexicans sing and dance to guaguanco; you forget that Beny More wrote and sang many songs about Mexican mambo dancers; you forget that Celia Cruz and La Sonara Matancera had decided to retire in Mexico but was convinced by Larry Harlow to move to New York and sing for FANIA; you forget that the many Mexican bands that developed as a direct result of their love for La Sonora Matancera - bands like La Sonora Santanera. It is so funny to see how someone who so boldly claims to be authentically Cuban know absolutely nothing about it's musical history. It is people like you who give real Cubans a negative image. Chincub, whoever told you that LA salsa dancing is Cuban with Ballroom is about as ignorant of Cuban dancing as you are. If you did your research you would know that LA style dancing is primarily influenced from West Coast Swing and some Latin Ballroom. New York style salsa is primarily influenced from Hustle. The NY shines that were originally done in the 1950s/60s came from East Cost Swing. In fact, it is now known that the cross body lead came from Swing. The Vazquez brothers learned salsa in North America b/c Salsa is more a product of North American culture than Latin American culture. As a Cuban, I do believe that Salsa was created in New York. It was the NY Puertoricans that took our folkloric genres and revolutionized them with a more modern, more aggressive sound that entailed many North American influence. Every Cuban knows that the music that was created in NY in the 1960s had its own distinctive sound, it was not recycled Cuban music. The Cubans who say that are ones that a) pretend to be Cuban - such as yourself - and thus have no real knowledge of Cuban culture and/or b)are jeolous and envious of the great accomplishments of our Puertorican brothers and therefore will refuse to give the credit they deserve. You go to Cuba and you will see how rare it is to see Cuban salsa dancing. Most Cubans like North American music, alot of Cubans love and dance to rap and hiphop music. In fact, go to most of the Latin countries and you will see the same thing - Latinos from Latin America dance to US pop music, Latin rock, Latin reggae, rap/hip hop, etc. Since you claim to be such an "expert" on Cuban dancing, I think you should demonstrate this by answering the following questions: 1. In what year and in which city did Son dancing emerge? Roberto, November 13, 2003 - Cuban music discussion For Roberto, November 14, 2003 - Cuban Music Discussion - response to Roberto Que bola, Roberto! "14. How do you dance Timba? Please describe every single step in detail. How is Timba different Son, Guaguanco, Rumba, Casino, Casino Rueda?" As a Timba generation guy and committed Timba fan, this question makes no sense for me because there is NO particular way to dance Timba. NO, not in the sense that you could describe "Timba steps". Probably the most outstanding Timba "move" is the DESPELOTE, but even that existed before Timba emerged. Timba allows for such free, various and uninhibited dance expressions that it is definitely impossible to pose a question like that. Did you live in Cuba throughout the 90's, which is the time Timba emerged????? Roberto, don't take me wrong, but you have to revise that question. Otherwise maybe answer to it yourself, please. On the other hand, I often disagree with stuff that Chincub posts, but as a Cuban I'd never attack another fellow without knowing him as a person. Chincub's ideas about music and dance are just viewpoints. I don't think they tell you if he's a good or a bad person, and it doesn't mean he is not an "authentic" Cuban. Other Cubans in the island share his ideas. Whether they're right or wrong, nothing will take away their national identity. I'd like to read your answer to question 14. Dear
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