|
The Feedback.... February
25, 2003 -- Dear
Eva, after writing these columns for 3 years now, I was surprised to
receive this response to my story... I apologize if I offended you and
other readers as I don't have the same amount of time to devote to writing
and actually possibly made this a little too short without enough story-telling
and I could see how some could see it offensive. Yes, maybe these comments
or thoughts should be kept in "private", but at the same time,
if you read the "Salsa
Safari" article, don't tell me the average salsa dancer cannot
relate to this article... When you hang out with your friends and talk
about some good or bad dance experiences and don't know a dancer's name,
don't you find some way to describe them, such as "you know, the
tall guy with the silly grin who's always off-beat" or the "petite
dancer with long blond hair who always wears those skimpy tops and dances
with the same guy each night". March
1, 2003 -- But
there is one thing for sure...I can certainly relate with your story
regarding dancing with the rough "gorilla" style you were
referring to. I've danced with the same man you were talking about two
weeks ago in Berlin, and for the person who was bitching about "how
you can call such and such a gorilla," go dance with King Kong,
and see even if you would even had arms left to respond to this post
after that dance! Maria
Rose, I agree with Eva on some issues regarding you just sticking to
dancing with the good dancers. All these dancers from Los Salsomanos,
Dance to Live, Soles, UnitedSalseros are too clicky. Soles people never
come out, Los Salsomanos dancers stick to their own Latin group, and
UnitedSalsa dancers at the Courthouse never seem to dance with anyone
else. They may teach good but I don't think they dance to the music,
nor have I tried any of their classes so, I don't see what's the big
deal about this group that teaches everywhere. Paula and Jose are at
least Latinos and can feel the music even though I think their students
stick to themselves as well. I take lessons at El Convento Rico every
Sunday and I find the classes there fun and social. Bottom line is that
I never see many of these dancers come out in the real Latin clubs like
Plaza Flamingo or El Rancho. -- Joshua March 4, 2003 -- Cliques and beyond. I am ecstatic that the Courthouse is doing their Friday nights, because to be honest I am sick and tired of the aptly named Salsa Superstars of Toronto, and having them sour and change the mood of other places, like Rancho and Babaluu. Now, of course, of course, there are sooo many exceptions- nice people, with technique who actually know a thing or two about the dance and the music, and the LATIN CULTURE. But then again, there are those like a little man currently competing in the Berlin amateur category, who has stated that "the Chinese people are the evolution of Salsa, as they are taking it to the next level". I won't name names, but I am sure you all know who this is, as he is an active member of your cliques, be it whichever clique from Toronto, cause they are ultimately connected. How can one stand by and hear a comment like this and not want to squash the little delinquent? Oh, yes, I understand you all have your pride, you worked so hard to reach your high level of Salsa, to the point that you are causing it to "evolve", but you know what? The rest of us who don't give a flying %$%& about competing,counting steps and practicing and getting all frustrated over missing a beat have also worked hard, and we can keep up with the best of you. It's just that we don't like dancing with you because of the attitude you give everyone you haven't personally certified in a studio environment. And we don't think that advanced = wanting to perform. Or needing to perform. You, the so-called ADVANCED dancers are condescending, shallow, so self absorbed, you dance to get everyone's attention, you want people to gape in wonder and say WOW I wish I could dance like that. There is nothing wrong with being talented and dancing well, but these cliques think they are better, somehow above the rest of us. And yet let a beautiful Latina who has never done a cross-bosy lead in her life come along and all of the superstars compete to get her attention, drool over her, have no issues teaching her anything and everything. Now don't get me wrong. I have been dancing for 3 years and I absolutely love learning new techniques. I am not Latina. I took shine workshops, and they have helped immensely. But my initial teaching rested on feeling the music, its meaning, the separate instruments, the voices, in one word THE UNDERTONES. I began with respect and reverence and at no point did I think I now own the dance. I SMILE WHEN I DANCE. I am having fun. I GIVE to my partner, be it a 5'4" man(and i am 5'9"), or a skinny man, or a tall man, or a fat man, or a beginner. It's ok to draw the line at drunks, sweaty ppl, rude ppl, sleazy people - but not at people who only lack a membership in your little circle. This is why Rancho bears the last remnants of true Salsa, music wise, and people wise as well. Everyone is accepted there. The bottom line is not that we want to dance with you, with these super-advanced men and women, we just want your attitude out of or faces. Your smug looks and complicated patterns are executed as if to spite of the music itself, or the world itself. A prime example are Rocky and Sharon. Do they look into each other, into the music, do they ever smile? I am sorry but I have no appreciation for their skills - which amount to the exact same styling and moves everytime. And they both look so apprehensive, so involved in themselves (not even in each other) so self-absorbed that I bet if they could they would want to each win the competition alone, without even each other. These cliques are oblivious to anything but the count and which beat they are on. Where's the flavour? If you're Chinese, Latino, White, whhhhhaaattteevver, the only way you will evolve along with Salsa is to personalize it. All of the people in these chilque dance like identical jazz/salsa robots. So you can shake your body to the exact beat of the drum. But do you flow? Do you feel? Are you in it? Or are you looking to see what poor rookie is watching you? Looking like the few instructors out there - i.e.. every woman dying to dance like Jennifer and every man like Giovanni is what I see the superstars are trying to do. I would have let it be, as I believe everyone can dance/be whatever they want. But once you start imposing on others with your behaviour and words, you are imposing and not minding your own space. You all impose on the rest of us when you refuse to dance with lesser beings, when you can't even smile at anyone, when you don't even say hi to ppl who you clearly know and say hi to you. Get over yourselves! Or better yet, stay amongst yourselves and keep to the Courthouse, at least there the rest of us know we don't need to go. And accept the fact that advanced or professional dancers are not necessarily only those who perform and put on airs. Some of the best dancers in Toronto would never compete on principle. So there. I know I got mean throughout this letter, but enough is enough. This past Sunday at Babaluu you were all there, Rose, Teddy, Caryl, Angus, ROCKY - and oh boy were you all ever self-absorbed. And Rose, you, dancing on two with The guys decided to practice with each other - and seriously! If you guys think you are part of the scene, of the culture, have some respect and integrate! You'd be surprised the treasure you'll find.... and last of all, keep on dancing! Ophelia March 4, 2003 -- Comments for Joshua regarding advanced dancers and cliques Rose, your response to Joshua was bang on, but you were even a bit more polite than I would be. Since when has there ever been a rule about advanced dancers having to dance with beginners? Since when does anyone with skill have an obligation to help out others? I remember when I first began and I STANK. Sometimes I would ask every lady in the club and still not have danced at the end of the night. One of the things that inspired me to get better were these feelings of frustration. Eventually I got better and met some really good dancers who I would see regularly. They would remember me and we would jam regularly. The better I got the more likely it was that these people would give me the time of day. I'll dance with beginners but I don't think it's super fun. However, I remember when I was in their shoes and I really appreciate their DEDICATION and ENERGY. When they comment that they really like my dancing it really makes me feel good and I always ensure to give feedback. HOWEVER, there is no rule that all advanced dancers have to do this and that's just tough. Regarding dance group cliques... these are salsa clubs, not high schools. If you want to dance/hang out with some one in United Salseros then GO MEET THEM!!! I just recently met Teddy after having watched him for the past 4 years. I've danced with some of his students and they are all friendly. Some have turned me down but SO WHAT? They are not bad people. I don't feel that they are ruining my salsa experience because I'm not SELFISH. If you are attending the clubs regularly because you love to dance and you want to improve, as Rose mentioned, it's up to you. The more people you introduce yourself to, the more people you will dance with. -- Josh March
4, 2003 -- Complainers Are Cowards
Joshua's f the World...stop complaining and do something about your own insecurities. You are an adult--do something about it. You hide beyond your posts and attack reputable instructors and advanced dancers that you know nothing about. You just judge and presume everything is "as is." Don't judge someone until you have walked into someone elses shoes. How do you know that these so called "instructors" or "superstars" do not dance with beginners or does not visit other Latin clubs? I have seen some members and instructors of dance companies in Plaza Flamingo. What do you know of the great contributions instructors have had in the Toronto Salsa scene? If you took the time you may find out that some (not all) instructors are good people that's why they are such good instructors? You try to be diplomatic but then you contradict yourself. Some of your comments also have some racial undertones. I a mildly acquainted with Rocky and Sharon, and it's soooo EASY for you to hit someone who is extremely visible...why don't you identify who you are to Sharon and Rocky and you actually MIGHT learn something, such as being a bit more pro-active about handling your own insecurities? Yes, this e-mail may sound personal towards you because it is. Some of the instructors you have mentioned and have attacked--my %%#%%## friend--you are so off in character. The people you've implicated...Nicole (Soles), Paula and Jose, UnitedSalseros. Christ, you really know nothing about these people or these groups. For every complain you make, there will a hundreds of people to give you rebuttal. You just your want your share of your attention as you are probably getting right now. FYI, I have been turned down in dancing many more times by some instructors, but I also know for a fact that there are many dance instructors do not turn down people based on their Salsa skill level (beginner or advanced). The world does not revolve around you, so don't think you can take this personally. This post--take it, and if your ego or pride is not too high, you may actually get pass the rudeness of this post, and actually see its real value. I apologize and know I'm extremely wrong for posting the way I posted, but sometimes, Joshua, people like you just need a reality smack, and I know by pre-judging you and your kind I'm no better off. But sometimes you just have to tell someone straight out: Coward, get a life! -- Maria March
4, 2003 -- cliques and merengue
I just wanted to say that I like your site. The fact that it is updated, serves as a discussion board, and continues to expand in other areas is a testament to your commitment to making it the best salsa site there is. Surely, it will only get better. I think that people need to realize that cliques, groups, advanced and beginner dancers exist and that they are a constant, but that they are made up to be more of something than they really are. For the most part, it is wrong to generalize, and although I do not know the Toronto dance scene, it is similar everywhere. I agree with you -- the onus is on the dancer who wants to improve. Most people do not turn down someone for a dance. I cannot think of a time when I have. If a dancer thinks he/she is better than everyone else, well so be it. That is hardly something to lose sleep over. That being said, it goes both ways. If someone is an accomplished L.A. style dancer, an advanced dancer, being able to adapt to some latin women (for example) may be rather intimidating, given that styles can differ to such a degree that both the leader and follower can be in an uncomfortable dance. It is natural to dance with whom you are comfortable with. I have a question for you, though. Why do so many salseros dog merengue?? I saw a few articles on your "fun section" regarding the dance. One was the hardcore salsero application form, the other was the reasons to dance merengue. Although I realize that they are written in good humor, they are well off the mark. Merengue can be instrumental to developing correct body movement and posture, especially in cuban style dancing, where contra body movement is so important. Secondly, the second article to which I referred to said that it gives something for gringos to do, when in reality latinos seem to like merengue much more than North Americans. It is not as easy as people seem to think -- I have seen very accomplished salseros who look very awkward (to say the least) dancing merengue. Lastly, returning to the subject of cliques, what better way to break certain barriers by dragging someone(advanced or beginner) to dance a merengue?? I also do not like one merengue after another at a club, but merengue is very underrated and misunderstood. -- Brian March
5, 2003 -- Clicks and Cliques...
Ophelia -- I wanted to write in and comment on some of the things that were said in your post, to add some extra insight. I just want to say, however, that I am speaking ONLY FOR MYSELF, and I have no idea what the other people mentioned in your response think or feel about this topic, and they may not agree with or relate to what I have to say. The night I look forward to every week is Friday night at El Rancho. I LOVE that club and I agree with everything you said about the music and people. The music is amazing - enough said - and I love the crowd that is there every week, in my opinion they are true dancers and they really enjoy themselves and the music. The crowd at El Rancho has an energy you don't find at other clubs. (I have been to El Rancho on Saturday nights and the music is good and the atmosphere is good but the crowd is not the same... something about Fridays) I can definitely say that I HATE when people watch me dance salsa. I am a shy person and very self-conscious, and although salsa dancing has made me become a more outgoing person, I still feel stupid when people watch, I just want to do my own thing without people looking. I have been salsa dancing for a year (I started last year in January) and one of the things I often tell people is that I am still not comfortable improvising on the dance floor. I consider myself a beginner, because although I have learned a lot of steps, as you say, It does not flow yet. When I see people dancing who just respond to the music I am very jealous. These are the people who inspired me when I went to a latin club for the first time, and they are the same people who inspire me now. I hope in another year or maybe more, I can learn to be more "natural". I still think alot on the dancefloor, and I make fun of myself because although I have taken a lot of workshops, I only do one shine when I am in the nightclubs - the "grapevine" - because it is all I can remember while I am dancing. I saw a clip on TOSalsa.com of Teria and Hector from the Berlin competition in 1999 and I watched it about 20 times because I thought they were great dancers. I did not see anyone dancing like that this year or last year, and I am very disappointed because I want to see people who inspire me and give me chills when I watch them. The reason why I entered the competition this year is because I think it is fun to compete and it is a challenge - I am not a good performer yet and I was very nervous/stiff when I danced at the preliminaries. I personally wish that more dancers would compete because I think that's where beginners find their motivation and get exposed to salsa dancing, but there are a lot of amazing dancers in Toronto who we do not see for some of the reasons you mentioned (whether it is principle or whatever). As for cliques and all that, again, I can only speak for myself. I have never turned a girl down for a dance. There have been exactly two times since I started dancing when someone asked me to dance and I said no, and both times it was because I was tired and did not feel like dancing. I know some women who NEVER WASH THEIR HAIR!!!! they ask me to dance every week and I always say yes because I don't think I am better than them. Like I have said, I am still a little shy. When I first went to clubs, I would stand on the wall for 2 1/2 hours and then go home without ever dancing (I think the bouncers at Babalu'u still remember me) because it would take me five salsa songs to work up the nerve to ask a woman to dance, and when I was ready to finally ask, the music would change to something else (merengue, hip-hop) and I would go through the same process again. I am still like this today, if I don't know a woman, I am shy to ask her to dance, and when I am at clubs like Plaza Flamingo where no one knows me, I get rejected alot. -------------------- I also want to add a flipside to this. I used to go to Mana Lounge alot on tuesdays. The music there was UNBELIEVABLE - I personally LOVE Timba and Cuban music in general... and the atmosphere was the opposite of a salsa club. I went there with my partner Sharon to take the lessons in Cuban dancing. We didn't know how to dance to Timba, but we just danced our own style and nobody gave us dirty looks or made us feel awkward. In fact, Vladimir and Ana who taught the lessons there tried to make us feel comfortable. They didn't act cliquey at all, and they didn't assume we were "know it alls". They knew we danced the way we dance because it is what we have learned and not because we feel it is "evolution" or "better" than someone else's dancing. They saw us as beginners trying to get better. It was about the music and fun. This week some friends of mine are taking me to a Dominican night club to see real Bachata and Merengue dancing, and I already know the atmosphere will not be like a Latin club where people worry about cliques and stuff like that. There are places in toronto besides Babalu'u and Berlin and Courthouse to go dancing, with wicked atmospheres that are totally different. And they have nothing to do with the "salsa scene" --------- anyway Ophelia, I wrote this response because you used my name personally in your post, and I wanted to let you know some of the things that were said about cliques (which my name was included in) were not true for me. I don't think I am better than anyone, I love dancing with anyone and everyone, and I don't think that advanced = wanting to perform. The dancers who I think are amazing in Toronto, the ones that inspire me, I have never seen on stage. I
am not blind. Some people on the salsa scene do try to put on
a show and want attention, but these people are very few, and
are not necessarily the people you mentioned. I have my own opinions too. There are a lot of things that I think are B_llsh_t on the salsa scene, but I only talk about the things I think are positive. Latin dancing is amazing. Caribbean music in my opinion is the deepest and most multi-layered music in the world, and the fact that you can go to a nightclub in Toronto, Canada, any night of the week and hear Latin music and dance with different people is a blessing, and something I think is pretty cool. Latin clubs (even the driest clubs with the worst music and dancers who have no feelings) have a culture, LATIN CULTURE, that you don't find on the subway, or at work, or in the streets. It's what we all go out looking for when we dance. The first time I ever went to a Latin club I saw people interacting freely and asking each other to dance, and everybody knew how to do the steps and move to the music. I thought to myself, "this is sooo different from a regular club where people just try to pick each other up or keep to themselves or pretend to be something they're not"(ironic). I wanted to be a part of that. If you find that there are people in the nightclubs who don't exemplify this attitude and this reverence as you said, my personal advice is just ignore them, 'cause they don't get it anyway... Rocky March
5, 2003 -- Response to “Ophelia’s” Message Posted
on March 4, 2003
Despite the facts that (a) I do not agree with or (b) I have never uttered the words mentioned in your message--"the Chinese people are the evolution of Salsa, as they are taking it to the next level"—if we have danced or conversed before and if I did jokingly say something that offended you, please accept my apologies. Indeed, I have never seriously thought or felt the way you accuse me of thinking or feeling. The next time we meet, I hope we can share a dance. All the best, Davin March
5, 2003 -- Merengue
Brian, I don't like Merengue music that come for Puerto Rico--I like a few but not all. This is just a personal opinion, and I want everyone to find out for themselves what they like and do not like. I like Merengue, especially when the good Dominicans dance them; however, I yet have to meet one good instructor in Dominican merengue who can teach people systematically and not just "do this and do that" type of teaching. I think lack of teaching is a partial reason. I would like to see more Dominan merengue on the dance floor...there's actually more layers to Merengue than Bachata, as there are more instruments to play around with, and the music can be either fast, romantic, sexual, funny, or rude for that matter! - Maria March
6, 2003 -- siiiigghhhh - dear Rocky...and those cliques...
Well, Rocky, you impressed me. Your answer was impressive to say the least. So the reason you stick to dancing with certain ppl is just because you are shy? How can you be shy dancing like that? You have incredible skill, and that is one of the things that frustrated me about you, that you are basically limiting it to that which the superstars can teach. I am very glad you are walking down other avenues as well, not just theirs. I now see that you do not only have range of movement but of feeling as well. It is so incredibly easy to be defensive, and so incredibly hard to complain, to say something negative, to criticize. You all jumped up and got all like "well, you just don't get it, you are ignorant, insecure, whatever" or "we don't need to dance with anyone we don't wana dance with". To quote Rose, "You have obviously totally missed my point in my explanation and choose to ignore everything I said and in turn, contradicted yourself in your own response." How ambiguous is this? And nothing but defensive. It's more like you are not adressing anything I wrote, but rather giving me a cookie print answer. In any case, I will justify it - and rightly so - by thinking that you do indeed have a million things to do on this website - so we'll leave it at that. And, your website IS good. The reason why Rocky's answer impressed me is because he HEARD, took in the information and actually pondered it BEFORE jumping up and down all offended. And none of my commentary was direted at your personalitites, but at your dancing, and your social dancing attitudes and behaviours. You obviously do not exist/dance alone in Toronto. So you affect and are affected by those around you. I DO know almost all of you personally, and I know you are all good people, mothers, friends, sisters, brothers, whatever. This is not a critique of that side of you, but rather the superstar dancer side. This side can be compared to those overly "sophisticated" yuppies in the workplace, those people one meets for drinks after work at the most posh of places, to sip on the most overpriced martini and whose first question usually is "so, what do you DO?" At that point, god forbid you are a construction worker and there is dirt under your fingernail. SAME with your level of salsa. It's yuppie, exaggerated, exclusive of the flavour which some people carry from their grandmothers' swaying hips in the Latin American kitchens of the world. Or those whose first dance was with their mother, who learned the steps from love and the soul. The teaching environment in Toronto is utterly clinical and insipid, and that is what I am criticizing. And gifted people like Rocky becaome entangled in your steps, and your expectations. How many true Latino instructors have been put out of business for not teaching LA style? OH - I can just hear you: "that is called competition in a business environment". How properly capitalist! No wonder my biggest dream is to come up with a way to live in Cuba! Latin people have gotten to a point where they cannot be proud of being Latino. I see many of my friends frustrated with this issue, because those they share their culture with are abusing and changing it. And everytime someone speaks up to complain, the political corectness of our Canadian heritage shuts them up. I see everyone has a right to bitch except those who gave you ALL the music and the dance. What a shame, what a shame. What a shame that this is why there is barely any true salsa left to absorb, to learn from, to pay reverence to. Because salsa is being commercialized and spread incredibly thin. So, like I said, and I will repeat it, I have nothing against the clique staying together, and at the Courthouse. I am happy you all bonded at Berlin on Tuesday. Afterall, that is your peak, your competition, the epitomy of superstardom. And we did have a copule of dances that night:)which is proof you all came down a notch and performed what Rose more than once called a "sacrifice" or "charity" dance, I forget the word. My rebuttal continues to be to those messages about so-called advanced dancers. Take a look around, as the word "advanced" has branched out. Rocky,
I hope you enjoy the merengue and bachata session, as I
am sure you will. All the best to you - and let go of yourself,
and stop worrying about who is or isn't watching you. I
know you have only been dancing for one year, and here's
my advice: feel the music, listen to all the instruments,
let go of any inhibitions, and let your body move. Watch
the moves your friends do and maybe learn them, but never
be afraid to personalize them just a bit. Do not set any
limits to your dancing, including partners. I feel the same exact way about he Latin scene as you. everytime I travel , I go to the salsa clubs and it is the only place I feel at home. Everyone is accepted, and that was the premise, that was what got us into it! Hence, my frustration with these silly gatherings of people, these cliques, and my epress wish that they stay at the Courthouse! hahahha:) Take care, all, and all the best. Ophelia March
6, 2003 -- Dancing and Cliques in Toronto I think that there are three main levels that people go through when learning to dance. At the beginning, they know nothing about dancing. They go to the club and just watch from the side, or they grab a partner and try to improvise without knowing anything about partner dancing. The second stage is where they start to learn about technique. They take some classes and become aware of things like footwork, timing, partnering, frame, resistance, centering. Now they can go to the club and dance with a partner, but all their mental energy is being used to apply the techniques they learned in class. Their dancing is very mechanical at this stage because it takes an enormous amount of concentration at the beginning just to get the basics right. The last stage is where the dancer has incorporated good technique into their natural way of moving, and then they can start to devote their mental resources to higher level questions about dancing, like, "Am I dancing in a way that's appropriate to the music?", "Am I dancing in a way that's appropriate to my partner's style and level of dancing?", "Am I projecting enjoyment of the music?", "What can I do to have a more meaningful interaction with my partner?" I don't think a lot of dancers in Toronto have reached this last stage. Why not? Maybe they never learned good technique in the first place, so they still have a lot of trouble communicating with their partner on the dance floor. Maybe they are very shy or uncomfortable on the dancefloor, so it's much less intimidating for them to continue to focus on the "mechanical" aspects of their dancing, even though it would be much more beneficial for them to focus on the "psychological" aspects. Maybe the only dancers they've seen in the clubs are "turn pattern machines" (dancers who do turn patterns straight from the beginning of the song to the end without stop), and as a result they think that's what they should aspire to be. Maybe they've never had the chance to see a couple really get down and interact and flirt with each other and the music, so they don't realize what's possible in partner dancing. So what can somebody do to get to this third stage if they don't have someone who can teach them? One way would be to closely watch dancers who are already there and emulate them. One person who I think is an excellent social dancer is J.J. Jean-Gilles of City Dance Corps. He has a very fluid and natural way of moving, and even though he is a trained dancer and a dance instructor, he can dance with women of all levels, adapt to their style, and make them look good on the dance floor! When you watch J.J. dance, his partner always looks like she's having fun, which I think is the most important thing to aspire to as a social dancer (I have different criteria for evaluating performers). Another excellent social dancer is Stephanie Gurnon of Mambo Tribe. Stephanie is one of the most musical and expressive Salsa dancers I've ever seen. If you watch her closely when she dances, you can actually see her energy level rise and fall with the peaks and valleys in the music. Soft, when the music is soft; energetic, when the music is energetic; happy, when the music is happy; and somber, when the music is somber. She dances in a way that is both very aware of her partner and the music. So that gives you an idea as to what type of dancers I watch to inspire me to make my dancing more well-rounded. But I get frustrated just as much as anybody about the deficiencies in the Toronto scene. When this happens, I try to find positive ways to deal with these issues, either by trying to influence people in a positive way or trying to associate with people who have the same values as me. Some people would much rather deal with these issues in a negative way, for example by posting nasty and unfair criticisms to the TOsalsa discussion boards. Ophelia, you said that advanced dancers in Toronto are "condescending, shallow, so self absorbed". How many advanced dancers in the Toronto scene do you know personally? Or do you think you know them just because you watch them dance? This reminds me of an incident that happened to me at The Courthouse: My
Friend: "I was talking to this lady I take classes
with, and we were watching you dance. She commented to me
that she thought you were really stuck-up." How can you know somebody just by seeing them dance? It's no secret in the Toronto Salsa scene that some of the wildest and craziest people on the dancefloor are some of the shyest outside of the nightclub. But you would never know that by watching them dance. So how would you know somebody is condescending or shallow just by watching them dance? Ophelia, I have the privilege of being good friends with a lot of the top social dancers and performers in Toronto, and the one thing that has always struck me about this group of people is how modest they are about their dancing. A typical comment from one of these people would be something like, "My dancing still has a long way to go", or, "I still don't feel like I really know how to dance." Which is a far cry from your assertion that advanced dancers "think they are better, somehow above the rest of us"! Anyways, in conclusion, what I want to say to the dancers in Toronto is: 1. Slow down and do less when you're dancing so you can appreciate the music more 2. Smile at your partner to let them know you appreciate the time you spend with them 3. Don't think you know what somebody is about just because you've watched them dance See you on the dancefloor! Sincerely, Paul
Chivers March 6, 2003 -- cliques response I am relieved there was somebody with enough respect and understanding of the latin culture and enough spunk to voice an opinion common to a lot of dancers who frequent babalu. some people who have already been named, although one instantly conjures up other faces (unfortunately i don't know any of their names) need to simply get over themselves. I know, it's very hard to abstain from rubbing it into the faces of those who invented salsa that "you took it to the next level" but do us all lesser beings a favour and try. This whole issue wouldn't even come up in and English club environment or most other scenes. But I'd like to believe that we all chose to be a part of this particular scene not only to demonstrate our superior moves in front of others, but because we found warmth and opennes in the latin culture. We were all welcomed at one point or another in their midst and greeted with the customary kisses on both cheeks. I urge you not to limit your experience only to the physical and to expand your minds by trying to understand the roots of the song and dance that you all enjoy so much. Take an interst in the music, the passionate lyrics, make time to immerse yourself in this wonderful, intense and different way of living and you shall not regret it. it has a lot to offer and a lot to learn from. Try to understand people's mentality and once you've mastered that you will find that most, having been raised in a collectivist society -where the ultimate goal is not do demonstrate your prowess as much as share good times and enjoy life on the whole- do not appreciate your showing off, and some even find it distasteful. I will leave you with one final thought on something I observed in last year's competition at Berlin. Aamong the pairs who competed (with frayed nerevs because of the huge pressure to perform), one couple stood out like a ray of sunshine and made the whole thing more human: the older columbian couple. They danced their hearts out, smiling all the way. You could see their connection and the pleasure they took in each move. Now: I understand in a competition environment judges aprraise the dancers' technical performance. Flourishes and style are much appreciated. But isn't it sad that a latin couple with so much personality and zest for life, the very ones who put down the foundation of salsa were not considered the favourites? It is sad that we all looked on in admiration but, all the while thinking they don't have a chance. The reality is that, being the true devoted pioneers, they symbolically if not otherwise deserve the laurels, although i am sure that is not what they were aiming for when they entered the contest: people, they were just there to Have A GOOD TIME! So ponder that tonight while you get ready to don your 100 dollah dancing shoes and your frowning faces. yours truly. Anonymous March 6, 2003 -- Cliques Ophelia probably knows very little about UnitedSalseros and all do the other business and voluntary social activities we engage in and probably judges us based on what the information she sees. I understand her feelings, although I do not agree in the manner she addressed her concerns. As a professional and visible organization, we have our strengths and weaknesses just like everybody else. It's just unfortunate that Ophelia (or perhaps Rudy, Frank, Maria, etc.) does not take the time to actually approach us and address these issues directly with the people involved. Thus, we are all forced to "vent" our feelings in website message boards, which is something I try to avoid as it is so impersonal. Although I can't speak for everyone, I hope most instructors/dancers mentioned, do not take personal offense although it is hard not to. Some readers may feel compelled to totally believe the posting; some people will just laugh it off; and some people may even feel the need to speak on behalf of their instructors or friends that Ophelia mentioned. I sincerely believe that Ophelia's message was meant to be progressive despite some of the harsh words used. I wish more advanced dancers would take time to ask beginners just for dancing purposes--not just because of their looks. However, I wonder if that situation would be better knowing that advanced dancers dance only with beginners because there is "social pressure" to do so. I'm out almost clubbing 7 days a week and dance approximately with 20-35 new people every week , most of which are beginners, and I do not even hand out my business card nor mentioned I teach Salsa (now my colleagues will give me hell for not doing so!). Do I have to start worrying know what other people may think if I dance with my favourite dancers? Can't I have my fun too? I actually go to Plaza Flamingo, and I know many advanced dancers do not like to go there due to the limited Salsa music they play and the floor quality, and I just dance with anyone that likes to dance Salsa. Surprise, I get turned down at least 10-13 times on average in Plaza Flamingo. Do I take it personally? Of course, we're all human. Are my feelings valid for feeling that way? Another issue. One thing is for sure; however, I would not go personally naming everyone in my "unfavourable" list and start writing one-sided assumptions about them. There are so many factors to consider when someone decides to dance with you or not...it's not black and white...although the results may feel the same: you either get a dance or not. All I can say is that it will not change your reality, and each person has to be self-directed and responsible for having their own fun. However, if you can lend a helping hand to someone who needs an extra push so they can have fun (asking them to dance, maybe?), then we should all try to make an effort. Peace, Ophelia. Teddy Olaso, UnitedSalseros March 6, 2003 -- Cliques
I won't speak on behalf of all the instructors and advanced
dancers but I will say a few things (another novel?) about
UnitedSalseros since our names have been mentioned on some
of the responses. March 6, 2003 -- Cliques
Dear Ophelia, regarding your comment: "It is so incredibly
easy to be defensive, and so incredibly hard to complain,
to say something negative, to criticize. You all jumped
up and got all like "well, you just don't get it, you
are ignorant, insecure, whatever" or "we don't
need to dance with anyone we don't wana dance with".
To quote Rose, "You have obviously totally missed my
point in my explanation and choose to ignore everything
I said and in turn, contradicted yourself in your own response."
How ambiguous is this? And nothing but defensive. It's more
like you are not adressing anything I wrote, but rather
giving me a cookie print answer. In any case, I will justify
it - and rightly so - by thinking that you do indeed have
a million things to do on this website - so we'll leave
it at that. And, your website IS good." March 7, 2003 -- Maria's response to Ophelia This side can be compared to those overly "sophisticated" yuppies in the workplace, those people one meets for drinks after work at the most posh of places, to sip on business for not teaching LA style? -
Many true Latino people teach L.A. style - so I guess they
turned on their own, right? You are so one track minded. Fortunately, I'm not an instructor like some of the people you've mentioned who actually took the time to give you the attention you need without harsh words. While the Salsa scene is not perfect, and I'm probably one of the people that makes it worse by responding to these ridiciculous topic, it'a far better scene than to have a lot of people with your attitude. As I've mentioned to Josh, you really know nothing about the major people you implicated, and I'm surprised how calm most of them responded. You will probably never identify myself as the "cliques"may banish you in the Salsa scene forever with all their powers. Maybe then you and I can have food at Plaza Flamingo, and if there's no pepper spray incident, dance upstairs, and then trade secret identities. How's that? Believe it or not, it is deliberate that I respond this way because you do not deserve a decent response. Please, give me your best shot and prove to the cliques and their students your progressive views. -- Maria March 7, 2003 -- Group Hug Ophelia, Josh, Rocky, Sharon, Oscar, Teddy, Carroll, Angus, Rose, Rene, David, or whoever else posted... Can we just have a group hug? Sorry, Ophelia..I was mean, but girl, you were nasty to some of the people! Did the cliques hurt you that much to want to move to Cuba? Give them a chance...I did...but then again, I still get turned down a lot, so you do have a point, I suppose. Rose, I don't mean to sound mean to you or anything, but it does appear you're trying to do everything with this Team Canada stuff, website, and being an instructor for UnitedSalseros, that maybe it does appear to be all about you in this site that's why Ophelia is upset. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put you down, but what qualifies San Tropes (Sonnia and Murray) to run a team under the official name of Canada? Plus, there's never been an official school for Salsa, and you are training or instructing which no one knows about what's going on. Do you think it's possible that people react to this negatively. From the outside, it does appear kind of self-centered...although I see your point know. Now I'm not siding with Ophelia...in fact I don't know whose side I'm on, as I've had a love and hate student relationship with all the main dance schools from Dance to Live, Soles, UnitedSalseros, and even Steps...I've taken them all. Anyway, I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. Once again, Ophelia, I'm sorry...I was nasty. I reacted angrily to some of your posts because I knew some of the people you mentioned did not deserve your comments--although some did which I would not mention--but now that I read some of your posts again, I still strongly disagree with your methods which I fell victim to when I responded to your post--I see some of your valid points. -- Maria. March 7, 2003
Dear Maria, I don't know when you started coming onto this
site, but the Rose Knows column was ALWAYS about me and
my experiences as a dance for the past 3 years. And now
that I'm expanding my horizons, it seems some claws are
starting to come out. What qualifies anyone to be an instructor
in the whole wide world of salsa, and am I being self-centered
or are people jealous of anyone else's success based on
hard work. And why am I volunteer-teaching? It's been something
I've been wanting to do for awhile -- to learn to lead (as
I always want to try new things) and to be able to better
help dancers who ask me for advice in the clubs or who are
interested in dancing? And over the past two years, I've
been asked on and off to work with other instructors to
travel and teach in other countries, but I always hesitated
because I have very high standards of what I would expect
from being an assistant instructor. And to let the hat out
of the bag, I have been invited to go overseas sometime
this year -- all expenses paid, to help promote their salsa
scene. (Now I can imagine what SOME people will say about
that.) March 7, 2003 -- thank you for all your responses Like Teddy mentioned, I used harsh words BUT it was all meant to shed some light and bring some awareness. I am glad you all read what I wrote and that is really all I could ask for. Had I been a little lamb, I would have gone unnoticed. As for email rather than in person - come on, people? Should I have started a long ocnversation with each of you over loud club music? I think not.And then you guys truly would not hav heard the point, you would have certainly taken it even more personally and as an attack, rather than another voice, another opinion. Maria, you have so much passion and spunk, I don't think you were being mean. I am not here to whine about ppl being mean to me, as I know my posts were strong too. I am just glad that even one of you gave the issue some thought, and gave the time to answer. Teddy, Rene, Rocky, Maria, and everyone else, I really do appreciate what you wrote. Especially the fact that your answers were pacifist and positive - and like I said in my previous post, I know you are all extremely good people, and good dancers. The point was more about cliques, attitude, and changing the SOUL of salsa - failing to keep the Latin depth. Maria you sound like a true friend to those you defend and like a true salsera. I hope to meet you one day. Rose, you have a lot on your shoulders with your site, and maybe you should find some help, as it seems to be getting to you. You schedule and daily stress would fell the best of them - so I guess you compensate by patting yourself on your own shoulder, which is fine. And just so you know, naming names is a way to give life and a face to the issue, not necessarily a way to [and I will mimmic your capitals) ATTACK PEOPLE. Damn, girl you are high-strung. Last I saw Maria was on your side and you chewed her up mercilessly! Whoa. Everyone have an excellent (dancing) weekend!!!! -- Ophelia March 7, 2003 -- Clicks and Cliques Ophelia, You complain that certain, advanced dancers are pretentious and self-serving merely because they are highly visible in the SALSA scene. It is obvious that you have issues. Who appointed you the moral compass of the city? Why should your opinion matter more than anyone elses? You offer no constructive criticism what so ever. You blind-sided Rocky by ignorantly making claims about his personality, and when you realized that his personality is nothing like your perception of it, you scramble and back-track, re-positioning your entire stance. I'm tired of people like you writing in complaining about certain groups who actually help make Toronto the progressive salsa centre that it is. The argument that these people are not really Latino or that they cannot feel the music is false. They enjoy the music and the dancing just as much as you. They are having just as much fun as you. They go to the clubs to see their friends and dance with their friends, just like you. Why do you find this so apprehensable? THEY ARE ENJOYING THEMSELVES AT THE CLUBS, PERFORMING IN GROUPS, REPRESENTING TORONTO AND CANADA IN COMPETITIONS AND RECEIVING ACCOLADES FROM DANCERS AND PEOPLE WHO KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT SALSA THAN YOU!!! Who cares whether or not you like the way they dance? No one is forcing you to dance like Jennifer or Giovanni so why are you complaining? I can't wait to see what you write now that Teddy, Paul, Rene, and Rose have completely obliterated all of your arguments. You seem like an educated writer but even your way with prose cannot surmount the mountain of BS you have heaped infront of all of us. The groups that you attack are not the be-all-end-all of salsa in Toronto but make up a certain fraction of it that compliments the whole. Your opinions, while you are allowed to make them, are not appreciated and your perceptions are not shared by many. -- Josh March 7, 2003 -- Clicks and Cliques... It's incredible to see so many people worked up about SALSA. Dancing is just dancing, it's not life or death! If people choose to dance or hang out with people... LET THEM! I am sure that advanced dancers have worked hard to get were they are and have built great relationships along the way, through the salsa scene.I must admit that in the clubs it looks like a competition rather than social dancing BUT I am sure that they are trying to practice all the moves they know. Personally,I enjoy watching people dance and let loose. Dancers who come to mind are Stepahnie, Ivy, Dora and Michelle. They all have grace and are just great overall dancers, playful and with truly amazing footwork. I've never really met them personally but they seem like nice people. As for the United Salseros people they seem to look too robotic and their style is forced...it doesn't seem natural but that doesn'y mind they are bad people just because they won't dance with others or hang out with a group of people. This is just my opinion on observing people. The main thing is that instead of all this chatting we should be dancing! -- Ester March 7, 2003 -- Rose, I did not mean to put you down or that was my intention. English is not my first language so sometimes things do not come out well. All I'm saying is that at least in the Ballroom scene there is a CDTA (I think) training, but I believe it is not in Salsa, so some of my friends have commented as to what you can possibly learn from UnitedSalsoros and San Tropes. I've visited the Team Canada sight as well as the United site, and some of my buddies said it's too self-proclaimed and does not have any professional association accreditation. That's all, but I'm glad you're at least putting an effort since I suppose there's really nothing out there or some kind of Salsa association to provide training. I say this sometimes because I've seen so many people teach in Toronto, and they have just been dancing Salsa for not even a year - Maria March 7, 2003 -- Clicks and Cliques... Hi, When I was a beginner, it was difficult because I am an average-looking girl and not many guys asked me to dance. I tried many different ways to improve myself to have more dance and fun. I dress to impress but only in the decent way. I took lessons. I asked guys to dance. Mostly I ask someone who is a little better than me or at the same level. I seldom turn down any guys unless I know his move hurts me. I did ask some much more advanced dancers to dance, but only once every several months to know how much I improved. Most of them did say yes and I really appreciate it. Only a few did not and it is definitely not a big deal. I will move on and ask someone else. After 10 months dancing, I improved a lot and some advanced dancers or even instructors began to ask me to dance regularly. Now maybe I am in the clique. :-D Laugh! The most effective way is to improve myself rather than asking others to improve their attitude. No one has the obligation to dance with me. It is the way of the world. It is hard to change the world, but it is probably to change ourselfs and in turn to change how the world treat us. About courthouse, many people think it is itimidating. I think just because it is so advanced that it is a good opportunity to learn and improve. I am having fun! -- Ying March 7, 2003 -- Anonymous 2 to Anonymous 1 What makes you and others think that the best dancers are so smug and showoffs? Is it because they know so much more than you. You can't expect them to just do basics. I'm
glad the older couple can feel and enjoy the music. It's
nice to see an older couple out there still enjoying their
dancing. BUT don't expect them to win a competition based
solely on the fact that they are older and maybe cute dancing
together. A competition is still a competition with certain
requirements and expectations. Another thing, if all the best dancers taught all you complainers everything they know I bet you'd be dancing just like them. I doubt that you'd go back to dancing basic turn patters. In fact you'd probably become their buddies. Maybe you and others are just jealous that they are better than you. I enjoy watching the advanced dancers dance. Yes some of them seem into themselves. But most are having a great time and express it throght their complicated turn patterns, shines and body movements. In
the Courthouse there has only been one incident that I've
seen. A guy was thrown out because he was drunk and started
some altercation. Other than that there have been no problems.
Another Anonymous person. March 8, 2003 -- Last night I was at the Courthouse, and I saw the cliques again. I asked 8 instructors to dance, some of them teach salsa on a full-time bases. Guess what? Half of them I know casually. 2 turned me down, 6 danced at least one song with me. The two that turned me down, I really took it personaly. one left early, so I don't know where he went. The other one asked to dance later on and apologized because he was in a middle of a conversation with a buddie of his. Not only that, he sent two of his good dancing buddies to dance with me. The moral lesson of the story. I was offended to that two of them turned me down, and I thought they were kind of rude the way they turned me down and was about to write something not so friendly. It's very hard for a woman to ask men to dance. The situation is notthe same. Anway, I'm glad I did not jump to conclusions. I also saw you Rose, dancing with your usual favorites, and I have observed soemthing interesting in the salsa scene. even among the "clique" dancers, people seem to have their own favourites and "mini cliques" if you can call it that. Guess you never know -- Maria March 8, 2003 -- Dear Maria, too busy to respond right now to some of your emails, but apology accepted and after reading many of these posts, maybe it's a good wake-up call for rude people on the dance floor, but you can never change the fact that regulars in the salsa scene who have been around a long time have their favourite people they like to dance with and even I'm not in some of those so-called "mini cliques" nor would do I yearn to be... I'm happy dancing with my so-called favourites, friends, and anyone else who asks me or whom I get to meet here in Toronto or anywhere else in the world. And don't think I've had my share of being turned down by the "salsa superstars", and occasionally it irritates me, but we're all human. And if I think they are being rude, I find a polite way to tell them so if I'm so inclined. Maybe not when they refuse me rightaway, but at another time. Also, after 5 years in the salsa scene, I think I'm entitled to hang out with my friends, and sorry, many of them just happen to be regular dancers in the salsa scene. Rose March 7, 2003 -- On an unrelated note: I REALLY like this Ophelia chick! She's a freakin' wild woman! Keep up the "bad" work, girl! (Rose, I know what you're thinking: Don't encourage her.) -e March 9, 2003 -- Rose, you are as cool as the other side of the pillow. If I were in your place, I would have posted the words “bite my _ss” so many times, I'd be getting traffic from porno links. I'm sure you're tired of the whole cliques discussion. But its worth a look back, from a literary stand point: Now, I dont care if she's right or wrong, but for pure reading enjoyment, Ophelia’s letters rock. First, she tells the rest of you to stay in Courthouse and to not be messin’ up the vibe at her spots. Then, in an even bolder move, she essentially puts out a hit on someone! “Squash the little delinquent?!” Yikes! Poor Devin, (presumably the little delinquent) is so terrified, that he nearly apologizes for being Chinese! Her initial letter causes United Salseros to adopt the brilliant strategy of writing post so endless and meandering, that she might pass out before reading them completely. Nice try! I skimmed through some of these and from what I gather United Salseros is an organization not unlike the Peace Corps. The shy, yet brilliant Rocky, takes the diplomatic route, and is spared her wrath. Her second letter broadens her attack to society in general, (I call it: What a Shame x 3) but it is personal enough to at one point bring tears to my eyes, as I paused to call my mother. The evil laughter at the end however, was a grimm reminder... Maria, fresh off cutting Josh into a Sheesh-kabob, looses her mind, and unloads with both barrels. However she seems to catch herself the minute after she hits the send button. Too late! It was like Reservoir Dogs—“You even dream of shooting me you better wake up and apologize!”. Maria does. (without Ophelia typing a single word!) and offers a group hug. I was like “Maria, are you crazy?, She ain't trying to hug you! She wants to lock you up in Courthouse and throw away the key!” So flustered is Maria that she turns her guns on Rose. Not fair! Rose had just come off some grueling site updates, trying to once and for all convince the world that she is not a peacock. She was then forced to defend herself from yet another unwarranted, unprovoked attack. Good Lord! The next chapter is a little more “Hey, you're OK, I'm OK”. Which is good, (you guys should be making up, and dancing together all hot and sweaty like) However, there is the mandatory jab at Rose (if you think Rose needs help....) and Josh wrote some crazy “Who died and made you a compass” thing. He’s also ripping off Rose’s use of CAPITAL LETTERS. We all know how you-know-who feels about that. Anyway, I hope Ophelia doesn’t move to Cuba. Internet access down there is terrible. Oh, and by the way, Anonymous 1 and Anonymous 2, you’re not fooling anyone, we all know you’re the same person. -e, NYC March 10, 2003 -- To the guy in New York: don't you have enough things to worry about in New York scene? I heard the salsa relations out there is the worst in the international salsa scene, when it comes to cliques and people not dancing with you? Is that true? Anyway, I'm not trying to dis you. I'm just surprised that someone from the outside reads what's happening with their northern cousins. Maria V March 10, 2003 -- Response to Eddie from NY: Did anyone hear me laughing all the way from here ? Figures
... a New Yorker puts in his “two cents” (U.S)
and it’s actually worth something with the exchange!
March 10, 2003 -- Rose, I took UnitedSalsa lesson at the Courthouse, and despite the fact that my partner had VERY BAD BREATH, and the lessons were excellent, even though I was apprenhensive because I instructor was Chinese or Japanese I think. You and Jessie did a really good job, now I understand why you are a teacher for them. I also looked at your Salsa canada team and I noticed you do not have the same people in the goroup. You had more latinos last year from what mi amigas tell me, what happened to them? It's nice to see more Latina faces, but i don't meant to get rid of the ones that are already there. why don't you advertise at clubs where there are more latinos like Plaza? I have to say i did not like the ballroom performance. they look liked they were on drugs and their faces were too mmch. it did look difficutl whatever they were doing though. Teh cha cha I saw from Cuba does not LOOK like that. I'm glad I saw no one in the courthouse dancing like that otherwise I'll just take Yoga or something. I'm saving my money for Mamma Mia. -- Maria V. March 10, 2003 -- Clicks and cliques I usually try to stay away from those silly arguments
in the discussion forum, but this time I just had to write.
Why are some people so obsessed about who dances with who
at the clubs? Every salsero worth his clave KNOWS that dancing
with as many different partners as possible is the most
effective way to improve one's dancing! Those dancers that
believe themselves to be so good as to be above dancing
with beginners will eventually realize that no one dances
with them, not because they are too good but because they
have lost the ability to adapt to a new partner. Lastly
a word about Salsa Team Canada. Last March 7th Maria wrote:
"...what qualifies San Tropes (sic.)(Sonnia (sic.)
and Murray(sic.)) to run a team under the official name
of Canada?... Plus, there's never been an official school
for Salsa, and you are training or instructing which no
one knows about what's going on. Do you think it's possible
that people react to this negatively. From the outside,
it does appear kind of self-centered..." March 10, 2003 -- Dearest Maria
You are not my Northern cousin, You're my northern sister. I like that you've added the letter V to your name at the end of your letters. -smells like Victory -e March 12, 2003 -- Clicks - Thanks to E from New York Really enjoyed the style and summary from E of NYC. If he/she dances as well as they write, then that would be a site to see. AS for Maria - like your style too girl. Stay honest. -- Wannabe Superstar March 12, 2003 -- Clicks - Thanks to E from New York
If the question is: Are you as good at dancing as you are
at being a wise-ass? March 13, 2003 -- I'm back to school outside of Toronto if get accepted, I find out in two weeks. I probably will not be able to post any more after this disucsion since I'm going to concentrate on my studies. I like your website Rose even though sometimes I wish I had some kind of map like the TTC to find some of the things I want to read coz your'e sight very big, and there are many good things to read and gossip about. I will miss dancing with the Toronto dancers, including the cliques that I sometimes I want to love and sometimes squeeze out of frustration at the same time, depends if they get a dance and my mood that night. that was a joke so don't think I'm dissin any of the good dancers. and for that guy in New York. I like those guys that dance on a different beat but it's so hard to approach them because they are always in tight circles as if there was a magnet that holds them together. I went to Copacobana? and I almost had no money left to buy a drink because the cover was so expnsive. I asked 14 good dancers in New York and THEY ALL TURNED ME DOWN, so i really felt like crap! and I thought Toronto was bad. But then some of the Cubans and other Latinos I've met asked me to dance, and they danced more the regular way, but after a while I got bored with casino style and i found them very roughc compared to the ones I'm used to in Toronto. But I was happy at least that I got some dance after I realized our Canadian dollar is worthless in the New York City, plus there was this cute Cuban guy but later on i found out he was no good I saw him asking for another telephone number when he asked for mine. Is there a good club to visit there where they are more friendly to people who can't do 200 spins like the girls at Courthouse? I don't mind asking 20-30 people to dance, but if 95% turn you down I don't know. What is your recomendation? Thank you and goodbye. Well, maybe. -- Maria V March 16, 2003 -- Cliques After reading your disscsion I thought I would get my two cents in . The idea that advanced dancers do not want to dance with begginers is somewhat true and not. As long as begginers can keep up with the rythm of the beat it is all a dancer ask for. If your following is heavy that is understandable , but mistakes happen in leading, even to the best of us , but a pet peeve you'll find is staying on rythm, because that is soemthing that can be easily practice at home , without any parnter. From personal experince it throws the whole rytmic and spritual aspect of salsa dancing. So , for female beginners if the turn pattern doesn't work , Improvise , but always go back on 1 or 2 and you'll find that any advanced dancer will gladly ask you to dance again if this done. This is why you'll find cliques happen .It is a clique of not neccessarly excuting the right turn pattern, but execting the right rythm. In essence, it is a clique of fundamentally ryhtmic peolple . That's all is all , nothing esle. Salsa is all calling to the Gods via a beat that is consistent. Remember to improvise that is key , and you'll fit right in. And if reading this don't be cocky and assume your on rythm evertime , you'll be suprised.. -- Oslano March 18, 2003 -- Cliques Dear Osalono: Regarding your comments.I was intersted where you dance? In Toronto, the scene is very differnt. Many us stand around waiting to be asked to dance ,but it seems all the good dancers only dance with each other and don't give intermidiate dancers like myself an opportunity to try to get better and improve our skills, even though we do got rythm (as you say). I am curious if the same scenario occurs where you are from? -- Gina April 1, 2003 -- Clicks and Cliques Clicks
and the Cliques, and Claws Should
I have started a long conversation Your
smug looks and complicated patterns [The debate begins.] Why
should your opinion matter You
should be proud of all the great [A response] All
of the people in these cliques [Another response] Maybe
you are just jealous. Beginners
should realize that [Inquiry] But
beginners are beginners. [Reflection] All
I know is [Insight] Depending
on how you look at it [Passion] The
main thing is that April 4, 2003 -- To Ophelia or Maria V. #1.
What does a Latin face look like? #2
Latin people do cross body leads. #3 Kudos for Rocky for trying to dance Casino. But I saw you at Mana. I don't think I saw you take the lesson more than once or twice. I think later you were into your own thing with Sharon although everybody was trying to dance in a more Cuban style. Perhaps you didn't want to look foolish. Casino is very different from other styles. There are many professional dance instructors here who can do a Cuban 70, (not Soles 70). I think you are an excellent dancer and person, but you got to try harder with the Casino. Well, at least you tried Casino, that's more than I can say about most "hardcore" salseros here. -- Chincub May 7 , 2003 -- cliques
Dear Ophelia,josh...of the community, I started dancing
two years ago in the small salsa community of Ottawa. Since
then, i have been fortunate enough to visit different cities
that host the salsa scene. I remember a year ago, before
i moved to T.o., thinking how great it would be to have
the oppurtuinity to dance salsa any night of the week without
having to do it in your living room (in alot of canadian
cities salsa is only available once a month or a couple
days a week) or without having to call your few salsa friends
to make sure someone will be there!... July 14, 2003 -- Clicks and Cliques Hi, I would like to comment to everybody on the opinions expressed in the 'Clicks and Cliques' discussion forum. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it, however, I feel the tone of most people's (with some exceptions) comments are too negative and unfairly derogatory. We all go out dancing to have a good time - if there is someone bothering you because you think (I stress 'think' - everything is perception) they're showing off or snubbing you, or sticking with their clique - then ignore them. Don't let it get you down. In all honesty, what do you care? If you want to talk to someone in one of these so-called cliques, then go talk to them - if they snub you - that's their loss. I can understand that you would be upset, but I don't think you should name names and make nasty comments about individuals. Don't you remember when you're mother said 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all?' And wouldn't you feel terrible if you got to really know the person you bad-mouthed only to find out they were just having a bad day or were too tired? Anonymity doesn't excuse this behaviour. I think there are probably a lot of people who have been hurt by these comments. On behalf of the guilty, I apologize to those who were attacked on this website. I am thoroughly disgusted and saddened by the behaviour exhibited by my fellow salsa dancers -- SAS December 26, 2003 -- Dancing with only advanced dancers Dear Rose, I read your response to that person Who wrote you that nasty email; regarding the drunken gorrila. I'm in total agreement with you. I have been taking private lessons at Soles dance studio weekly for nine months. I have just completed my first level of advanced. I've only started going out to clubs in the last few weeks. The reason I waited so long, was because I wanted to have my salsa act together; before I started going out to clubs. I have seen what you are talking about many times. I personally don't like beginners coming up and asking me to dance. Especially after I have spent a considerable of time and money to get where I am. I feel I have earned to dance whith whom ever I choose. And to qualify my remarks. There are some girls out in the clubs that I will wait till I've had a few more months of private lessons, before asking them to dance.That is all for now. John. January 16, 2004-- De-Clique Salsa and Make it Grow Hi Rose, I have read the many discussions that have been posted about cliques in salsa and I agree with most of the arguments. I understand that many advanced dancers are friends with their salsa friends, and that many instructors would also like to dance 'advanced' when they come out. The problem that I have as an almost advanced dancer is that the entire salsa scene is too limiting. There are several amazing dance troops in Toronto, although we need more! We need the schools to teach more advanced workshops, we need more opportunities to dance and perform i.e. Team Canada. There are not enough NEW faces in the advanced category. I know I would like to improve in my dancing, although there are no more schools looking to expand their number of instructors, no more troops asking for more dancers.. so what to do! I go dancing quite often, and even ask men to dance to make sure my night isn't spent waiting all night to be asked. Although, Toronto's salsa professionals need to do more. What is going to happen to Toronto in 5 to 10 years? There needs to be more instructors, more advanced dancers out there in order to keep Salsa alive in Toronto/Canada. So what I am asking is for all the schools and performance groups to create more opportunities for 'almost-advanced' and high-intermediate dancers out there!! Thank you. Any other suggestions? -- Salsagirl February 12, 2004 -- Cliques (answer to John) Regarding the person who wrote: "I have been taking private lessons... for nine months. I have just completed my first level of advanced. I've only started going out to clubs in the last few weeks." I just want to ask one thing: How did you manage to get to an advanced level without going out to practice in clubs? Taking lessons is great but knowing how to dance and being able to dance in a real-life situation are two totally different things. Later on the same post: "I personally don't like beginners coming up and asking me to dance. Especially after I have spent a considerable (?) of time and money to get where I am. I feel I have earned to dance whith whom ever I choose." How selfish. Here you have beginners giving you the chance to prove to yourself that you can (or can't) really dance in a club and allowing you to become a better leader and all you can think of is how much you have spent buying the title of "advanced dancer". My guess is you can only dance with real advanced dancers that can make YOU look good. If you really are an advanced dancer you should be able to take any partner, beginner or advanced, and make them look like a billion dollars. If you can't then you should go practicing more often and with all kinds of partners until you learn that advanced dancing is not just taking the lessons and knowing the steps and the clave but being able to share your love for dancing with anyone who shares that passion, whether they know the reverse-multi-flipping-spelunkian-cross-body-lead or just the basic step. Francisco March 6, 2004 -- Cliques Well, lovers of dance, this bickering and nonsense is a joke. You see the old school dancers did not get into all this bickering. We danced and jammed together. It is too bad it has changed to this...... I remember when all the Toronto salsa dancers in the scene now use to watch us. I guess you did not learn anything about staying together. It is interesting that the supposed lovers of latin music( new salsa scene group), do not attend Latin concerts, festivals and parties unless it is their own Salsa Night, All I say is come together in Rhythm...... Martin March 9, 2004 -- Cliques Funny, who is this Martin guy? The regular dancers usually attend the parties/ congresses/etc. I also see many at the Latin Festivals. Where is Martin going to? -- Anon March 11, 2004 -- Clicks and Cliques Well, I've carefully read all the above and feel it would be time for me to step in and have a say... First and foremost, let me tell you I have no idea about the Salsa scene in Canada, since I am Romanian. I have never been to Canada (even though I intend to...) and thus cannot speak about the Salsa scene in Toronto. Still, I can comment on the Salsa scene in my home town (Bucharest). Salsa in relatively new and almost unknown in Romania. There are only a few cities where one true salsero can find other Salsa-dependent persons to bond with. Bucharest has the privilege to be one of these cities, actually the most-developed one. I have been dancing Salsa for 3 years now... and I think that in Canadian terms I would be quite difficult to rate... I know this because I have a Canadian friend (most of you probably know him - he's your friend and student...) and I had the opportunity of dancing with him recently. Well, he told me that I could be rated as advanced from one viewpoint, but from others I can be either an intermediate or a beginner dancer. Why is that? Because we do not have instructors here, not at your level. Actually, I opened a Salsa school recently (there are only 3 other schools opened here) along with my partner. Ok, now let's get down to what I have to say about the topic under discussion... We also have cliques here, in Bucharest. I am among the best dancers in Romania (some say I am the best, but I DO NOT agree with them - I am not a natural dancer, I work hard and I still don't look as I want to). And let me tell you a get VERY FEW social dancing. I almost always dance with my partner... Why? Many reasons... 1. I prefer dancing with him (it's easier, we can also practice, as we don't have enough time to do - I have a day job... we are also romantically involved and ... you know) 2. I do not refuse beginners or intermediates, unles: they are offensive, drunk or dangerous to dance with. Still they do not invite me, most of them confessed to me they are scared shitless, 'cause I'm such a great dancer and they suck... I keep on telling them I was a beginner too (and God I sucked!!!) but they still don't invite me... I INVITE THEM!!! 3. Most of the more advanced dancers also stay away from me because a) they are afraid too or b) they hate my guts, for not having been interested to sleep with them or c) they think they are sooooo much better (which is untrue, there is only one guy who is actually better than I am - I know I shall be deemed arrogant, but it's obvious...) I believe there are persons who don't really know me and think I am arrogant, snub... bitchy... which I am not! People who know me (and this is their opinion, not mine) think I am fun, a good friend and SHY!!! So... talking about how one can misjudge people... I have always believed Salsa should be fun, but... we are only human and there will always be cliques... Those of us who enjoy dancing should just forget about such problems... and DANCE THE NIGHT AWAY! -- Raluca Dear
Readers, if you have any questions or feedback, click
here.
|
