| Reader's Comments | |
| Our Feedback... | April 6, 2003 - Anonymous Response to Chincub |
| April 7, 2003 - Salsa Apple's response to Chincub | |
| April 7, 2003 - Anonymous Comments | |
| April 7, 2003 - Tanya's Comments | |
| April 8, 2003 - Chincub's Response to Everyone | |
| April 8, 2003 - Mark's response to Chincub | |
| April 9, 2003 - Akila's response | |
| April 9, 2003 - Chincub's response to Mark and Anon | |
| April 9, 2003 - Chincub's response to Anonymous P2 | |
| April 9, 2003 - Mark's response to Chincub | |
| April 11, 2003 - Anonymous Response | |
| April 11, 2003 - Ed's response | |
| April 13, 2003 - Chincub's response to Anon and Mark | |
| ! |
April 14, 2003 - Adam's response to Chincub |
| New! |
April 15, 2003 - Threadkiller's response |
| New! |
April 16, 2003 - Chincub's response to Adam and Threadkiller |
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The Feedback.... April 6, 2003 -- Chinese to Chinese I wasn't there to watch Davin's performance, but I hope you're not implying that Chinese people can't dance. You would be insulting an entire group by people by saying that. Just because my Chinese counterparts and I didn't grow up in Cuba doesn't mean that we have no potential in learning salsa and being good at it -- Anonymous April
7, 2003 -- Chinese to Chinese
Hi Rose, This email is in response to the comments written by Chincub posted on April 5th re: Chinese to Chinese. I would appreciate it if you could kindly post my rebuttal on the site for all others to see, as I feel as it's my duty to defend and stand-up for all the other Chinese dancers out there. To Chincub - a true banana/twinkie or however you wish to deem it,
it truly saddens as well as angers me when I encounter individuals
who are ashamed of their own ethnicity. The comments you made were
entirely inappropriate. You seem to denounce your own background,
yet at the same time acknowledging the fact that no matter how you
dress, act, colour your hair etc., the general public will still always
view you as being "Chinese", based simply on the colour
of your skin. April
7, 2003 --
I am also Chinese, and eventhough Chinchub made it clear that he did not want to be mean, he just contradicted himself over there. I'm not a friend of David, however, he is out there. Maybe Chinchub should compete and see he should feel when you're out there. And then all the other new age styles would see why everyone should just switch over to Cuban style (not Cuban-Miami style which is not really Cuban because it's the U.S), and then we can all start arguing that even though we are all dancing Cuban style, my regional Cuban style of dancing is better than someone else's regional style of Cuban dancing, then we go from block to block...it never ends does it -- Anonymous April
7, 2003 -- Re:Chinese to Chinese
(responce to Chincub)
Chincub, you have been chatting so much about how people suppose to dance that I'm just dying to check out your dancing. Would you please wear a tag with your name on it next time you go to a club so I could ask you to dance. I hate getting personal, but would you please do everyone a favour and stop trashing good dancers, and get busy with your own life instead. BTW, I think Davin is an awesome dancer, him and Akila put on a great show on a finals, and you are not the one to judge them. Tanya April
8, 2003 -- Take it easy (Chinese
to Chinese)
I was responding to Ophelia's e-mail in the Clicks and Cliques debate. She reported that Davin said that Chinese people are taking salsa dancing to the next level. Davin has denied it and personally I don't think he said it. I think Ophelia had an axe to grind and I think Davin's e-mail was more classy and he didn't get involved in the he said and she said game. I am Chinese and Davin is Chinese. So, I meant my message as a joke. Also, in the same discussion of Clicks and Cliques, Maria went to Courthouse and she didn't want to take lessons because the instructor looked Asian. She reported that the instructor won her over because of his ability. But no where in e-mail did I say Chinese people can't dance. Where did you get that? Don't read things in my e-mail that aren't there. I never said that Chinese can't dance. I think Davin and his partner dance well. I never said they didn't. If his model was Burning the Floor, Francisco Vasquez, and LA style dancing (examples I used). He suceeded very well. They dance very well I am sure, but it is not exactly salsa dancing for me. Or at least, Latin salsa dancing. And I said it was not my cup of tea. And I don't want to be identified with it. Most Chinese people on North America seemed enamored with ballroom dancing and LA style dancing. Ballroom is a large component of LA style dancing and the Latin component of LA style is a little obscured. Ballroom dancing comes from England. The English are the original "whites". So, Salsa Apple, who can be considered the banana or twinkie here? I wouldn't go to England to learn Chinese cooking, would I? Maybe some will argue LA style does not come from Ballroom dancing. But this connection is more apparent in the competitions. The showmanship, gestures, presentations in Mayan competition come straight from ballroom. Salsa is Latin music. It is too bad here, people here (not only Chinese people) don't learn more about Latin culture, learn Spanish and how it relates to the music. There are many good Chinese dancers in small Chinese communities in Cuba and Latin America. (well, there aren't many Chinese in terms of the total population. But I am sure just as many Chinese hardcore salsa dancers in Latin America as there are here). Why don't Chinese-Canadian people follow them? It is great that people try to dance a different ways. But when is the last time you saw a Chinese person dance in a Cuban or other Latin American way? Never. We need more variety. Why does salsa dancing have to be legitimized through the Anglo-American dancing machines for you to dance it? Just because I don't want to be identified with Ballroom dancing and LA style dancing does that mean I hate my own race? I meant my e-mail in fun. I didn't mean to insult anymore. But it will be great if it makes people think -- Chincub April
8, 2003 -- Davin
Chinchub, I sincerely believe you care about Cuban culture and its dance, and that is wonderful. Suprisingly, your comments appear bordering on being too ethnocentric. In Davin's defense, he has only been dancing several years I believe, and have taken the time to learn from the best instructors in town, including Afro-Cuban lessons with Ana Machado, who is Cuban. Perhaps he would take time to learn Cuban style Salsa eventually, but brother, your methods are questionable, and it turns people of, if you want to educate people. Regardless whether you agree with my post or the rest of the people that responded to you... I really think an apology is order to Davin, and if you really mean what you wanted to say as not to attack anyone in particular, then there should be NO problem explaining yourself. You appear to be a well-educated person. I hope humility is one your traits. Davin is waiting. Cuban salsa will eventually find its own way into the mainstream Toronto Salsa culture and will develop its own uniqueness. -- Mark April
9, 2003 -- chinese to
chinese
There is a positive side to everything and I think it is wonderful that so many non-latin people are interested in learning salsa dancing. Whether it's LA or cuban style the fact that they are out in the scene and enjoying the music demonstrates how much latin music and culture brings joy to all different types of people. Many people once entering the salsa scene, like me, are very impressed at how warm and sociable the culture is and bring more friends to check it out. No matter who is dancing, if the music, atmosphere and feeling of dancing did not make them happy they would not be there, so please try and remember that despite many differences in dancing styles and culture, one thing does unify all the people who are out dancing...happiness. We should all be very proud of this! -- Akila April
9, 2003 -- to Mark and
Anonymous
Ana Machado is an excellent teacher and dancer. But she doesn't really teach Cuban style dancing even though she is Cuban. She'll even tell you that. Not that she can't if she wanted to. But there is no demand for Cuban style salsa dancing in Toronto because most people have never seen it. So, she teaches the more commercial stuff. I don't blame her. I don't think I insulted Davin. I compared him to Franciso Vasquez and to the Burning the Floor dancers. He would probably like that. I was certainly kinder to him than Opelia in Clicks and Cliques. But enough of this already. This shouldn't be a debate. -- Chincub April 9, 2003 -- To Chinese Anonymous Part 2 Personally, I don't think competitions show if you are a really good dancer or not. Most of the great dancers I know have never entered a competition. Show dancing is different from regular dancing. To do well in a competition, you must have to show off more, play with the audience, have good costumes and have a good choreography. If you can't do that, that doesn't mean you are not a good dancer. Actually, I have seen many types of salsa dancing and heard different types of salsa music. I am not as closed minded as you depict me as being. I think all salsa dancing in Cuba is very good. I went to Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic, I love how they dance there. I respect the old time New York style dancers. I went to Colombia and Venezuela. I loved the dancers in Cali, Colombia, the capital of salsa in Colombia. But all of these dancers that I admire came from countries that have salsa as part of their cultures. All of these people came from countries that speak Spanish, the language of most salsa music. You may like LA style salsa. That is your choice. And the people who dance LA style salsa are actually dancing a Americanized form of Cuban style salsa dancing like Vladimir said in other debates. All the spins and cross body leads came from Cuba. But in LA, they added Ballroom dancing to the mix and they cut it off from any connection to the music and the culture. -- Chincub April 9, 2003 -- Old time New York Dancers, or Dominicans somewhere along the line passed on their skills to their students. Dance always evolves incorporating both rich traditions in the past and the present. Most people teach commercial stuff? What exactly is that? Anything that does not fall to your definition as to what Salsa ought to be? You are greatly mistaken if you think Cuban style evolved without outside influences, even in Cuba, although I don't want to diminish the importance of local dances that came directly from Cuba. Where do you think the partner work element came from in Cuba? Or does anyone who engages in comlicated partner work (including the Cubans from Miami) now considered commercial art? I don't know what Ana Machado considers commercial art. Perhaps someone ought to ask her. I don't know her very well, but I have taken some of her classes long time ago, and she has more respect for all forms of dances more than I've seen in most of the so called experts in these threads. -- Mark April 11, 2003 -- Comments by Chincub - April 9, 2003 -- To Chinese Anonymous Part 2 Chincub, how can you say that spinning and crossbody leads came from Cuba. No offense to Cuban dancers as they are amazing to watcy but I have never seen a Cuban dancer that is a great let alone a good spinner. Cubans tend to dance circular and do not follow crossbody leads very well. I've danced with many social Cuban dancers and also Cuban performers. April 11, 2003 -- 'Davin' revisited... I am a CBC like Davin. So what. How did anyone come to the conclusion the Chinese are taking Salsa to the ‘next level’? Davin undoubtedly has a unique style which is awesome to watch as a spectator. The Berlin finals is not a forum to learn Latin music and culture. Its there to entertain us! And entertain us he and Akila did. Don’t’ worry chincub, we won’t identify your Cuban dancing with Davin’s style just because you share the same ethnicity. I can appreciate your endorsement of Cuban style but frankly, your ethnocentricity and stereotyping is rubbing people the wrong way. Who I chose to emulate either it be Latin, Ballroom, hip-hop or Polka is my prerogative not my ethnic group. ...Ed April 13, 2003 -- Chinese to Chinese Anonymous, News to you. Not all Cubans dance well. Like Mechy said, Just because a person doesn't do a million spins in one place doesn't mean he or she dances well. I mean it is about dancing not just spinning. I know all the Cubans preformers in Toronto. Who have you danced with? Ana Machado can't follow a cross body lead? Vladimir doesn't dance with spins and cross leads? I think you need your eyes checked. Mark, Puero Rican and Dominican salsa dancing had very little influence on Cuban salsa dancing. Cuba was the main source of the music and the American embargo blocked a lot of cultural exchange. In the Dominican Republic, they dance an older form of Casino dancing, they will even tell you that. -- chincub April 14, 2003 -- To Chinchub Chinchub...you kill me. I'm a Dance to Live Student, and I have taken lessons from both UnitedSalseros, Soles, and with Giovanni. You are just jealous. Concentrate on your teaching or your instructor's teaching, and perhaps Mana would have not closed. At least the schools you always seem to criticize are visible and put themselves out there. Stop hiding behind the Cuban flag and show your stuff. You will never be satisfied with anything and is just insecure and have backed yourself in a corner. With attitude like yours, Cuban dancing will go extinct in Toronto. - Adam April 15, 2003 -- Cuban Debate, Etc.
Chinchub Cuban Salsa is the best in the world. It has the most advanced turn patterns, spins, and they move their body more than anyone in the universe. New York Salsa, L.A. Salsa, Colombian Salsa sucks. They are not really Salsa--they are just off-shoots from the great Cuban dance. Dance
to Live sucks Hurray! Fidel Castro won! Cuban dancing is great...too bad not a lot of people teach it. Those who do spend too much time at TOSalsa bitzin and criticizing...and you wonder why Cuban Salsa is a rarity. Oooohhh....I can't wait for the response now -- Threadkiller... April 16, 2003 -- adam and threadkiller Adam, If I see a couple dancing LA style with a million spins
and flips that I couldn't do a million years, am I jealous
? not really. But I appreciate that I can't do that and
the For example Adam, I saw your dance troop. I don't know you and the people at Dance to Live. I am sure you are nice people. But when I saw your dance troop. sincerely and honestly and without malice I felt no jealousy. I am probably jealous like all people. To Juan Carlos and Vladimir, I hope you guys get injured because you make everyone look bad beside you. I can't move half as well as you guys. I don't think the quality of instruction has anything to To Threadkiller I never used the word "suck". I don't even know half of the salsa teachers you mentioned. So, how could I say they sucked? What is a Salsamano ot Mambotribe? Who is Enrique Iglesia? Is he a priest? Please don't misquote me. I never said Cuba was the best. In my other e-mails, I said I really like New York style especially the old timers and I like how they dance in Cali, Colombia and Venezuela. They dance well because they come from salsa hotbeds, where the music is connected to the culture. More troubling is your comment about Fidel Castro. What did Fidel Castro say about Davin or the different styles of salsa? Are you suggesting I am brain washed by Fidel Castro? I am no lover of Fidel Castro that's why I am here. I went to university in New York. Don't confuse the people with the government. We can think for ourselves. Thank you very much. People think after the Cuban revolution, there were no innovations in music or dance. That's not true, state sponsored education in music produced musicians of quality and they didn't have to compete with the Brittney Spears of the world. The End. My last e-mail on this subject -- Chincub April 17, 2003 -- Threadkiller's Response Chinchub, end of your e-mail? Thank God. Can we make that permanent?
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