November 2, 2001

Dear chincub, I'm probably not the best person to answer this question as I haven't studied cuban style casino, but I did get to dance it with cubans at the Wonderland TLN event. Because I do dance Miami-style casino (the most popular being Salsa Lovers in Miami), it made it easy to follow what the men were doing in the cuban style casino. I don't think it's very different except for the types of calls they use for the different patterns you learn. Since there are many cubans in Miami, I would imagine it started off with the basic cuban patterns and then they developed their own "syllabus" of patterns from there. According to Rene Gueits, he mentioned that "Miami’s casino dancing has some disco style to it whereas Cuban dancing is more from the waist down".
-- Rose Knows

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November 5, 2001

Hello Rose, I've noticed for some time that there's a lot of confusion from people writing in to the site about Casino style dancing, Casino vs. Casino Rueda, Miami style vs. Cuban style, etc. I am writing this email in the hopes that I can clear up some of the misconceptions that people have and maybe bring up some questions for discussion.

The first thing to note is that many people in Toronto erroneously use the terms "Casino" and "Casino Rueda" synonymously. For example, in your column, the word "Casino" is used wherever you mean "Casino Rueda". Outside of Toronto, the term "Casino" is used to denote the Miami and Cuban style of dancing in general, whereas "Casino Rueda" is a more specific term that is used when this style is danced with 2 or more couples in a synchronized fashion.

I believe that many dancers in Toronto use the terms "Casino" and "Casino Rueda" interchangeably because they are not familiar enough with Miami/Cuban style to know that this style exists apart from the Rueda format. For example, take a look at Soles and United Salseros (please note that the following ideas are my opinions and may not be in agreement with the opinions of the mentioned instructors). Even though both schools teach classes in (Miami style) Casino Rueda, their one-on-one classes consist mostly of New York and LA style dancing. As a result, you will see the students and instructors from these schools dance Casino style when they dance in a Rueda, but they almost never dance this way when they dance one-on-one. The misconception that arises from this situation is that people in Toronto think dancers from Miami and Cuba only dance Rueda, without realizing that these dancers do most of their dancing one-on-one. I think a great deal of confusion on TOsalsa concerning this topic comes from the fact that some readers are using the term "Casino" when they really mean "Casino Rueda".

Sincerely, Paul Chivers

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November 6, 2001 -- Response to Paul Chivers

I have already mentioned that Casino is not only when people dance in a group switching partners. It is a dance style, the original dance style. Where do you think cross body leads came from? Casino started in the 1950's and they changed partners by using cross body leads, long before the invention of "salsa".

Another point, Soles and United Salseros do not change their style of dancing when they dance Casino Rueda. They just do their Casino choregraphy within a New York or LA style framework. This is maybe Miami style Casino, but it is not certainly isn't Cuban. Just go to www.salsaville.com and look at the free video clips from Cuban dancing video collection -- chincub

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November 21, 2001 - Your reply on Casino rueda

Hi Rose, Well I was reading your reader feedback and I was interested in your reply to the Cuban Salsa entry. Now I know that Im not Salsa Expert. However I travel to and from Cuba on a regualar basis. I wouldn't want to say that your wrong that the Casino Rueda is a miami step. But I don't beleive it to be. Casino Rueda is a Cuban Salsa step danced in partners like you said. Unless this miami step and cuban style are identical I wouldn't say that the rueda is danced with a miami step in partners.. if I'm wrong please correct me... I was always told Rueda is Cuban.. Even by my instructors.. or is it just that "WE" dance the rueda not to a cuban step but to a miami step because that is what is popular here but not necessarily correct.. ??

Hope you make some sense out of this.. Anyone else's input would be appreciated as well.. Also great work on the website, I was also at the congress in Ottawa and it was great!! : ) Thanks, Amanda

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December 8 , 2001 - You asked for it and I got some great viewpoints

Dear Amanda, I'm happy to report that I was able to get the time of two busy instructors/writers to answer the casino rueda discussion in detail.

The first is from Nicole DaSilva, Soles Dance Studio, who is the only school in Toronto that I'm aware of that has taught 9 class levels and 3 master levels of casino rueda! She took time out of her busy schedule to write this for me after I sent her the background information on this subject.

She wrote this quick introductory note to me which I think many of us who love dancing for dancing's sake can relate to:

"I hope it is received well and understood in the way I meant it to be. Dancing is such an internal, personal and creative thing. It should be a fun and enlightening experience and should not be about suppression. The ability to recognize the differences between different styles is good knowledge to have, but should probably not be limiting -- Nicole"

The Origins of Casino Rueda, by Nicole DaSilva, Soles Dance Studio

The second article is from Jacira of Salsapower.com, she also has received many requests for this explanation, along with mine, so you can also get the Miami viewpoint.

What is Rueda de Casino? Why do some call it “Casino Rueda”? by Jacira Castro

I hope these articles help to clear up some of the misconceptions about Casino Rueda.
Rose Knows

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December 9, 2001 -- "Salsa is not a genre, as Nicole said."

Salsa is not a genre of music, as the Mambo is or the Son is, Salsa is the result of any kind of mixed music. What you dance to the Casino and you call Salsa is The Son, Guaracha, Mambo that today's day it may have some influence from another genre, such as reggae or saoko, but this music has as the main element the Cuban Son.

What Carlos Santana does is a Salsa, as well, since he combines different elements from differents genre. What Mana does is Salsa as well, because they blend Rock with some Latin beats, but still Rock since the Rock is the main element. That`s why the salsa that you dance to is still Cuban Music since the Son and Guaracha and the Mambo are the main elements. But you can still enjoy this music, it doesn`t matter where it came from. In Cuba We enjoy the Dominican Merengue and the Colombian Cumbia, with the only difference that we respect their origins.

To the new way to make Son in Cuba, we call it "TIMBA" since Salsa refers to a kitchen vocabulary better than to a music vocabulary -- Abdel Lopez

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December 9, 2001 - Nicole's response to Abdel

The article I wrote was not about music or it's history. It is about dance. Although dance and music go hand in hand a specific music genre does not necessarily accompany, require or reflect the same genre in dance. Swing dance is a genre onto which we have all different types of styles of swing depending on the era and the style of music (i.e. big band, rock'n roll). There is lindy hop, east coast, west coast, jive etc... Tap dancers, for example, may dance to the same music Lindy Hop dancers use. Fox Trot or Quick Step may also be danced to the same music some swing dances are done to. According to what this reader wrote there are various artists that incorporate the influences of latin sounds in their music. This does not necessarily mean we dance latin to it. My article was specifically about dance and not the music. To write about the history of Cuban music coupled with it's dance history and how they relate to each other would require a great deal of research and time. There are some contradicting opinions on this subject and it would be a life time project to accurately present this information in chronological order. The how, the why, the when and who would be quite a project.

Dance is an interpretation of the music as it is received and felt by the dancer. In the same way a painter is an artist who uses paint as a specific medium. However he may paint on canvas, walls, fabric etc... He has the opportunity to choose from four primary colours in the spectrum and mix them together to achieve an incredible range of colours for this artistic expression. As for keeping it real and respecting the origins of dance and/or music, we can and should certainly do so as it is great to have this knowledge. This knowledge is important to different people for different reasons. However knowledge of dance/music history or origins should not be limiting -- Nicole

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December 10, 2001 - Like Nicole said, Casino is Cuban

Like Nicole said, Casino is synonymous with Cuban style of salsa dancing. That's my point exactly. Casino Rueda may be equally valid when danced by LA style dancers or New York style dancers, but it is made for Cuban style dancers. For me, the tight turns and walking in Casino Rueda is made for Casino dancers. LA or New style dancers dancers look out of place when doing Casino. But you can't separate Casino Rueda and Casino. Changing partners in "dame" are made for curved or slanted cross body leads rather than straight cross body leads. Duh, I know they don't call them cross body leads in Cuba, I only use these words to better understood, like when I say "mambo" step, which understood differently here than in Cuba. The basic step in casino when men reverse their "mambo" step and push off with hands against their partner is made for people who can take smaller steps and walk, rather than the big, tight ballroom steps of other styles. Cross body leads may have been borrowed from other dances, but the first time it was used with a clave based music was in Cuba -- chincub

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December 10, 2001

The people responsible for creating the name of Salsa for the "musica popular bailable cubana" such as The Mambo, The Son, The Cha Cha Cha and some others was the Fania , now my question is : Why did they call to their first movie " OUR LATIN THING " if they just played Cuban music in that movie ?

There was not even dominican neither mexican rythms in the songs played, the only country had involved its culture in that movie was Cuba. Then Why did they used the world "Latin" if not any other Latin country music was involved ?. Even a couple of americans (anglosajones) were playing.

Today`s days you find a lot of more rythms added to this music, since nowadays all genres travels from one country to another easily, so people add new beats, but this doesn`t change the genre.

You find Rap music with some merengue elements, but still Rap, the same happens with the Son, some people can add Rap to it, and still Son even if there some changes. Some other can add jazz to the Mambo, but still Mambo, the same happens as you add some Mambo to a Jazz, still Jazz.

But, to call "Salsa" to all these rhythms is easier for people that can`t tell the difference between a Mambo and a Son or any other CASINO style dancing music. That`s why the term Salsa is so used, since people call all these genre as one -- Abdel

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December 15, 2001 - Casino or Casino Rueda?

So, I get it they teach Casino Rueda at Soles not Casino.
They dance their ruedas with Cuban calls but within a New York Style, LA Ballroom framework. She is right their ruedas are equally valid. But nobody at Soles dances in a Cuban way, none of the instructors or members of the dance company do, don't get me wrong, I hear it is an excellent place to learn dancing. I am Cuban and I have seen the Ruedas Soles does. For me, they are a little strange. All of the people looked so uncomfortable doing the "guapea". Unlike Cubans, the people don't dance like this one on one, so they aren't used to it. And the basic turns out of the guapea are really bad or they don't know some of them. When they are dancing one on one the "mambo" step in their style (you know man left forward, right foot back) and they want the woman to turn to her left, the men do a cheat step, they step back on their left (like a guapea or reverse "mambo" step) and then turn the girl.

But I agree with Chincub that there is a distinct Cuban way to do turns, to do setenta, dedo, etc. For example, I haven't Soles do "prima" or "ocho", but they do the Miami versions of these calls. They couldn't do the Cuban setenta, because their arms are tight ready for some ballroom action. You need looser arms to dance Casino and the turns are tighter (in terms of space, not tension) and more relaxed. Furthermore, who is Soles to decide which calls are sexist, vulgar or make no sense to Canadian people? Like enchunfla makes sense to Canadian people. Shouldn't Canadian people decide what is sexist or vulgar for themselves? Again, we see the waterization of Cuban culture for popular consumption.

If you want Cuban style or Casino, go see Valdimir at the Spanish Center - Mercedes
PS I hardly know him, but I have seen him dance.

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December 17, 2001

Ehem . . . there ARE Cubans in Miami, you know . . .
I have seen Vladimir dance Casino, and no offense to him, but I also have seen other Cubans (who were born and lived in Cuba) who dance Casino differently from him, and some of them live in Miami and also teach Casino Rueda in Miami.

With regards to Soles, as most of their material comes from Miami . . . it is silly to think just because Soles people are not "Cubans" that they do not know what they are doing. There is a racial undertone in your comments, my friend . . . think deeply.
- and don't assume I'm not Cuban -

Not a Soles Student

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December 25, 2001

More food for thought from Edie - AFT

http://www.dancefreak.com/stories/dance_styles.htm

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March 22, 2002 - Casino

This is the first time I have been in this website and I must tell you I think it is great!!!
I read my name a couple of times and I thank those people for menssioning me, even if it was a possitive or negative coment, I want to say three things:

1. Why do people call the old style of dancing salsa in T.O salsa cumbia,the dancing step of cumbia is compleatly different from the one of salsa, just ask any colombian that dances tradisional cumbia and compare the two basic steps.

2. About casino, people have to understand that casino was dance in Cuba diferent all the time,if you see someone dance casino from the sixties to someone from the eighties, nineties and now they are compleatly diferent,so people that talk about casino I hope you can tell me the diference between all of the casino styles in Cuba over the passed fifty years and tell me how and why they have change. Also don't mistake son montuno or changui with casino.when I dance my style of dancing changes depending on the style of song that I'm dancing too, if it is son ,timba or songo you canot dance to all of them the same.

3. If you really want to understand salsa ,you should have an idea of what is son, cha cha cha , danzon, danzonete, son changui, mosambique, rumba, pilon, casino,mambo (not New York), also rythems like songo and timba. Even though people in Cuba were already dancing to son years before the name salsa came out from NY, I think we should respect diferent styles of dancing salsa because it is uniting music and dance lovers all over the world, at the same time it all depends on taste, some people like casino, others like N.Y and others like L.A ,just dance and have a good time but only talk or teach about what you really know and respect the music and it's roots -- Vladimir

P.S Salsa is like a small leaf part of the big tree of afro cuban music.

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March 24, 2002 -- Response to Vladimir

If Salsa is the "small leaf that is part of the big tree of Afro-Cuban music" then in what tree is Afro-Cuban music a small leaf? Afro-Spaniard perhaps? Now ask yourself in what musical tree does the small leaf of African and Spaniard music belong to? The musical tree of Earthling music?

Salsa is not Son. Salsa would not be Salsa if it were not for its many non-Cuban influences.

The roots of Mambo and Cha-Cha-Cha, for instance, is the Son, and yet why is there no revisionist campaign to strip these musical genres of their individuality and uniqueness? Where are the endless discussions and debates about how Mambo is not really Mambo, that in reality it is really Son?

What about Timba? Its roots are in the Son, so then (using Vlad's logic)Timba is in actuality another name for "Cuban Son"?

Salsa's (not Son) musical character was developed and cultivated in New York by predominantly Puerto Rican musicians. The cultivation of the Salsa sound was the result of an amalgamation of various Latin musical influences, not just Cuban.

Vlad's historical revisionism invalidates and takes away recognition from the many non-Cuban musicians who played significant roles in the history of Salsa. These musicians deserve their rightful place in history as much as the Cubans do -- Rogelio

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March 26, 2002 -- CASINO

Rogelio: thank you for gettin back to me i really apriciate your comments and you are so correct about about latin artists not gettin the recognition they deserve but i must tell you that many of those great musicians you speak of have gone to Cuba to study music and they go back to NY and get all of the recognition mean while the musicians in Cubaare only known in CUBA unlike the ones in N.Y,there is a famous clip of the great Tito Puente before he passed away where he says(I don't play salsa I play Cuban music)and he has been called the king of salsa by many great musicians of today in N.Y. Rogelio have you ever heard of chango fron Los van van,he is the best timbalero in history,many artist in N.Yfly him in from cuba but if you ask any body who he is they won't know,do you know who Chucho Valdes is,Elio Reve,NG la banda,Iraqere,La original de mansanillo,Anga,or Felix Valloy,if you ask about thiis names to any body they won't know but if you ask the same question to those great musicians in N,Y Im very shore they will,Cuban music is a mix of Africa and spain in its music religion and every thin else,with those two mixes that is how this music was born,ask the great Oscar De Leon and he will tell you the same thing,Puerto Ricans look up to Hector Lavoe and Ismael Rivera and they should but thos great artist look up to people like Beny More, Arsenio Chaputin and Roberto Fa -- Vladimir

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April 2, 2002 -- Rogelio's reply to Vladimir

I am familiar with all those artists you have mentioned Vladimir, they are all great musicians. But I think there is more to their lack of recognition in North America than what you think.

Most, if not all, Puerto Rican musicians have acknowledged the influence of Cuban musicians and Cuban music on their music. Look at Palmieri, Barretto, Puente, etc.

I think the primary reason why Cuban musicians have not been recognized is due to Cuban exile politics. It appears that when a Cuban musician defects to the U.S. he is given immense publicity and recognition. If he still remains living in Cuba it is a different story. For example, look at the case of Albita and Arturo Sandoval. Now compare that with the case of Isaac Delgado or La Charanga Habanera. Two different scenarios and outcomes.

I think Cold War politics is at the heart of this issue. Ever since Castro took power in 1959, the Cuban music scene underwent fundamental changes.

Fania artists in the 1970s were careful about not exploring too deeply the new sounds that were coming out of Cuba at the time (Songo, Mozambique) for fear of the wrath of the powerful Cuban exile community. The consequences usually meant economic extinction. Take for example, Tipica 73, they went to Cuba and explored the new rhythms, their career afterwards faltered. They took the risk and paid the consequences.

I do realise that the roots of Cuban music are in Africa and Spain. I already know that. My point was to illustrate that every genre of music has cultural and/or geographical roots.

By you claiming that Salsa is really Cuban music, I can equally claim, using your line of logic, that Cuban music is really Afro-Spaniard music and that Cuba has no real claim to its music. Is it that a fair statement to make? Is it right to discredit and take away recognition from the numerous Cuban musicians who have contributed to the development of Afro-Cuban music and say that it really belongs to Africa and Spain? I don't think so.

Acknowledging the musical roots is important, but negating its unique development and transformation is unjust.

Rogelio