October 21, 2002

Hi Rose! I am relieved to see that this phenomenon is not only in Montreal... I think a little saturation point has been reached, and that people are starting to enjoy reading and watching a movie without feeling they are missing something in a club... See you! Nathalie (STC Montréal)

---

October 21, 2002

Hi Nathalie, it's funny you should say that, as I'm trying to find time to read, watch a movie, and other things I've missed out on... due to the salsa overload this past year with all the travelling to Congresses, Salsa Team Canada and the website of course -- so even I'm not going to the clubs as regularly as I used to and going to less events as I'm craving a break before the salsa storm hits again. Rose Knows

---

October 22, 2002 -- Salsa on the Decline in TO

Wow, you guys in Montreal and TO are spoiled!

I just finished school here in Kingston and can't wait to move back to TO so that I can hit the clubs 4 - 5 nights a week!!!!

All joking aside, on recent visits to TO, I have noticed smaller crowds than usual on certain nights (Latin Roots, Courthouse and LB) but El Rancho on Fridays, Plaza on Saturdays, and Babaluu Thursday and Sunday are still rammed. But I'm somewhat out of the loop... Josh

---

October 22, 2002 -- response to declining salsa fever

Well, it is good to see that this thing is not only happening in To, Montreal and I can add, Ottawa. Imagine how noticable it is when there is only three latin clubs in the city! A very wise salsa friend of mine has always said that new dancers go through a two year phase and that most of them after, just go to something else, exept for those who start performing and teaching. I have always said that the fact that we have to go out in clubs, always late at night, to get our fix, is the problem. I don't really enjoy club life, but it is the only place I get to really dance. That is why I love the socials in New York city. It would be interesting to get the opinion of a salsa dancer that has been in the scene for over 5 years to see if it is a normal cycle that is slows down or if there is really a declining interest in salsa!! Renee

---

October 30, 2002 -- Salsa on decline? My own reasons

I started learning salsa dancing 2 years ago, and went up to the advanced level at a well-established school near my home, but I lost interest in salsa for various reasons:

1. Old school style hip hop and break dance is back in style, and it has captured my time and energy.

2. The fun salsa club nights usually open at 10 pm on weeknights, which is too late for people who go to work the next morning.

3. The age group of the people at my former salsa school was people in their 40's and 50's, but I am in my early 30's. These people attended classes very intermittently, and were looking for potential spouses, so I never had a regular dance partner throughout my time there. (They were not interested in practicing salsa nor interested in Latin music). I certainly could not rely on them to practice with me in the clubs.

4. In the more popular clubs, to really have fun in salsa, my opinion is that a dancer should have a wide repertoire of moves to work with, but my school instructors preferred to hold back on teaching what they considered to be advanced moves, to concentrate on choreography with simpler moves. To get exposure to learn moves that I wanted to learn, I had to go to Tequila lounge on Tuesdays with the United Salseros volunteer instructors there.

In the end, after 2 years and dissatisfaction with the low level of salsa moves that I accumulated, and the age difference I encountered in clubs and at salsa schools, I lost complete interest in anything to do with salsa...The only other scene that has an established dancers scene is the hip hop community, with its styles of dance, and the dancers there do not have to struggle to find partners at every occasion just to practice and enjoy the music. Peter

---

October 30, 2002 -- Salsa dancing on a decline?

I think that there are many factors when considering the decline of salsa. In Toronto (my hometown), there has been a proliferation of salsa clubs in GTA over the last year. Therefore, on any given night there are salsa venues to attend..good and bad. It really depends on what you are in the mood for and what you can tolerate. There are longstandings hangouts like Berlin, Babalu, El Rancho, and even Plaza...heck there is even El Convento Rico for those in the mood for Salsa Drag Queen's (I am woman hear me roar!!). These clubs on their well attended nights can still pack them in. However, not all of these clubs are salsa friendly, especially on particular nights. That is, the percentage of salsa dancers is at a minimum and so is salsa music. I call this the 'watering down' of a salsa clubs as these clubs have chosen to play music that will attract none salsa dancers to the dancefloor. Where there used to salsa, now there is more merengue, Latin top 40, RnB, housemusic....heck I have even Good ole Rock n roll in some places. These clubs have chosen to attract a 'drinking' crowd leading to the decline of salsa dancers in that venue. To understand this, you need only visit Babalu on a Friday or Saturday.

What I have noticed is that salsa dancing in T.O. ebbs and flows with phenomena that is indicative of the salsa scene here. Therefore, here are some that I think may have some impact on the attendance of clubs.

A)Salsa competitions - always seems to draw the competitor, the amazed, the curious and even the wannabe's in all of us.

B)Salsa conventions - there always seems to be increased activity before and after these conventions as those that have attended them want to show off their new and improved moves.

C)Salsa friendly clubs - (as noted above) always a big draw for salsa dancers, but not necessarily a good thing for the club proprietors as we all know most dancers dont drink. At times, you will notice that most dancers will congregate to the 'club' of the moment. In Toronto, that would be Bar One, Panorama, Lula Lounge, Tequila, Mana, Sassafraz....heck I cant keep track! In Toronto, everyday is a salsa day!

D) Change of seasons - Although it is commonly known that salsa dancers will wear the skimpiest outfits even in the dead of winter, there seems to be a trend during seasonal changes that would suggest dancers sometimes need some time off to adjust to environmental changes. Yet, I will also add that once a dancer has acclimatized themselves to the weather you will see them out even during a winter storm. Now thats devotion, passion or just shear craziness.

Now I want to end by noting that this is MY observation and is not meant to offend, but enlighten, reinvigorate you to get out there and salsa dance more and maybe even add a smile to those that have read this. After all, its just salsa dancing!!! Arthur

---

October 31, 2002 -- Decline in Salsa

I knew that this decline in salsa would happen, it was going to happen anyway. There are a number for reasons for this.

1) Most of the dancers who dance LA style or New York salsa can't speak Spanish. It is great that people respond to music without understanding the lyrics. But this only goes so far. The music doesn't fully communicate to these people as it was intended to. I think it really helps to learn Spanish to fully appreciate the song. The older people who don't Ballroom (probably the people with the most disposible income and time) are not really into the music.

2) New York, LA, Puerto Rican salsa is not very good right not, it is too commerical. DJs don't want to play new salsa or timba or don't know about it. Most of the Latin DJs here play the same songs. And most of the salsa dancers aren't knowlegeable or care about the salsa they dance to. They only listen to what the Sony and other record companies want them to listen to. I love Fania too. But you can't tell me LA salsa songs Lady and Careless Whisper are nothing more than elevator music.

3) Some people are getting tired of LA style salsa. After a certain point, dips, flips and hard spins are not as exciting as it was before. It is exciting for people who are not really salsa dancers, like for shows. LA dancers demand faster, faster salsa, but then it becomes less about the music, more about dancing faster and impressing your aunt Linda.

---

October 31, 2002 -- Rose Knows response to Chincub

Hi Chincub, it's nice to hear from you once again. I couldn't resist responding to your feedback because you don't seem to see the whole picture or your own interpretation of it which isn't all-encompassing.

1. I don't see how the "decline" can be placed on the fact many of us don't speak Spanish. It's like saying we woke up one day after dancing for a couple of years and decided we were fed up with salsa because we don't understand what they're singing. It's nothing to do with that. The reason we got into dancing was because of the music and the fact that if you love partner dancing, it was the most incredible combination -- you can't really do that in regular dance clubs or hip hop, unless you know west coast swing dancing. Basically, in those clubs you either dance on your own and even if you are dancing with someone, you don't have the same connection with a complete stranger. In salsa and partner dancing, if you have an instant dance connection with a stranger -- you both have the most enjoyable dance and may even dance the whole night together. You don't need to know the words to be able to dance to the music -- you don't dance to words, you dance to the clave or the 8-count in the music depending on your preference.

2. "New York, LA, Puerto Rican salsa is not very good right not, it is too commercial. DJs don't want to play new salsa or timba or don't know about it."

I don't know if I can agree with you here... why is it too commercial? because they don't play the type of music you like? And what do you consider "new salsa" -- shouldn't that be the new artists today, such as Spanish Harlem Orchestra, Frankie Morales, Jimmy Bosch, Grupo Gale, Sonora Carruseles, Africando or Wayne Gorbea? or are you once again referring to timba... as the new salsa?

Yes, some DJ's play the same music over and over, but that's because either the club owners insist that's all they want played or the DJ's are too lazy or comfortable with what they know to get the new music out there. But then there's other DJ's who are staying on top of the music scene, such as DJ Fab, DJ Billy (from the world music or cuban perspective) and I've even seen DJ Victor Explosivo coming out with some of the new music. And I know I'm going to be shot for this, but I've heard what the so-called new wave is -- Timba, and I'm sorry, it doesn't get me up and dancing to the music the same way Nuyorican, Puerto Rican, Colombian or other salsa music from other countries, such as Africa or even Scotland. There are some songs that grab me from cuban timba (such as Maraca), but as an everyday music style to take over the "old school" or commercial salsa -- I'm sorry, I will not and refuse to feel I have to convert because it's the "new wave" of the salsa to come usually stated from Cubans.

If you don't have an emotional connection to a style of music, then so be it -- everyone has a right to choose. I'll go to the clubs, the cities, congresses or stay in the comfort of my own home to play or dance to what I prefer to hear. I could argue that the new salsa for the millenium will move from LA-style with tricks to more Afro-cuban or hip-hop style of salsa or the growing preference amongst many advanced dancers to learn the New York Style on 2, which has a totally different rhythmic feeling that no one understands or wants to because you have to rethink and learn how to dance all over again. But once you get it and feel the difference in the rhythm in dancing, some people don't even want to go back to dancing on 1. Even then, people are looking down on the dancers who do those styles and say they are not dancing real salsa. And probably I will get shot down again for expressing my opinion that I don't know what I'm talking about, but can anyone claim to have the absolute right answers to these questions? I don't think so. If there was only one way to do dance or music, we wouldn't all be debating in these various discussion forums; but it all comes down to personal preference, no different than any other dance music genre. I prefer hip-hop, R&B and top 40 dance music to trans or alternative dance music anyday. Does that make me less of a dancer in that genre also? And because I can't do hip hop the way real hip hoppers do it, am I not able to dance? Dancing is about your own personal interpretation of the dance and dancing the way the music wants to make you feel or just having the opportunity to enjoy the music with a partner in a style of dance you prefer -- not what someone dictates to you should be right or wrong.

And is the New York style of music, such as Spanish Harlem Orchestra, too commercial because it's no. 44 in the US right now on Amazon.com? If so, please keep it coming.

3. "Some people are getting tired of LA style salsa. After a certain point, dips, flips and hard spins are not as exciting as it was before."

Salsa is declining because they are tired of LA style salsa? Sorry, this doesn't make any sense to me, there are other styles of salsa dancing out there... what's great about Toronto is that you can learn all styles of salsa dancing in one city... LA style salsa has not been the predominant style for at least a year... it morphed into a cross between New York and LA-style turn patterns -- rarely do I see people doing tricks, dips or lifts in ages. Usually, except for some guys who think they are the best (but aren't), it's only the really advanced dancers which may attempt those moves in a social setting, but they do it only if it's safe and usually only for fun if they meet up with a partner whom they know can do it and for the sheer enjoyment/challenge of being able to do it socially with someone who also loves to do those moves and are comfortable with them. How often do you get to do shows or perform if you have fun doing these moves. In the past, I had a friend who used to love doing the 360 degree flip on me, and in a social setting because we weren't performers or show dancers, we did it because it was fun and a challenge, and he would only do it when there was a lot of space around us so we wouldn't hurt anyone.

So yes, maybe it's slowed down a little, but not for the reasons you've listed above -- I still think it boils down to the fact that at one time with the exponential growth in popularity the past two years, we had enough dancers to support more than one club a night during the week, but now many of the regular dancers don't need to go out everynight to get a fix since they've matured in their dance lifecycle, are comfortable with their level of dancing and have gone off to enjoy other hobbies or gone back to spending time with friends and family -- including me! Also, because you can't guarantee a great night of dancing non-stop every night (which is how I used to get my fix), I usually only go out when I miss the music (once or twice week) versus 5-7 days a week which wasn't realistic, but totally addictive back then because every night was a great night and that was my only form of exercise back then. Many dancers that I used to enjoy dancing with have also taken this route -- either because they are also have peaked in their dancing lifecycle or are part of dance groups and are too tired to go to a regular club after. So until the influx builds up again, and/or I need a constant fix and I have more time, then I'm part of the problem. Rose

---

October 31, 2002 -- Salsa on the decline

Hi Rose, I really appreciate your comments in your response to Chincub, especially regarding advanced salseros being involved in salsa to a higher degree than "just" visiting the clubs. That is to say they are competing and practicing on their own, they are busy instructors working hard to make a living doing what they love, they are involved in shows or private dance groups, or they prioritize the myriad of salsa events available, such as concerts or congressos.

These are people that are truly advancing salsa because they are doing far more than just dancing. They are practicing and innovating outside of the clubs so that when they do show up for a night or two, they inspire the beginners and the beginners get excited and tell their friends and then their friends come to the clubs and see the advanced dancers and then they get excited....

..and so on.

I will never tire of going to the clubs because the best DJs and dancers will always inspire all of us to be better. Josh

---

November 17 , 2002 -- The decline of salsa.

I have been dancing salsa for the past 2 years and I agree salsa is on a rapid decline in T.O. Let me just say to much of anything is not good. What I meen by this In the past three years I have seen salsa grow into a giant in T.O. with club openings, dance school openings, contests and cultural events. This is what I call information overload!. This summer latin events werent as exciting as last summer, because some events were canclled and people did not turn out to this years events as compared to last year and the year before.

People see others dancing salsa and are amazed, so they go and join classes they take salsa for a year or two only to realize that the moves that they are using are the same everytime they dance with someone. Not unless you have a partner to practice with your moves will be restricted. So I guess others get tired of the same thing time and time again, the music loses its flavour and you become disinterested, so therefore most people are filtered out of the salsa scene, only leaving the truelly hardcore dancers. People take salsa waaaay to seriously, I personally stoped taking salsa classes because I found if I just want to have fun dancing I can do that with a few simple moves and not worry about if I can pull off that big move I learned in class the other day. I take the example of people in South America they learn salsa from friends and family and they have fun inventing new moves while they dance having fun with the basics and not stressing about the moves they are trying to pull off. What I am trying to say is people down there see salsa as playing baseball a fun passtime, and not something to worry about, people up here worry if they are dancing well or not and when they feel they arnt they leave the salsa scene never to return, because they stress themselves out beacuase they are not living up to expectations. We have to take a leason from those in the Carribean and South American, and use salsa as a fun pass time sport and not brain surgery.

The other reason why salsa is on a decline is because everyone either knows how to dance salsa or they see it all the time at clubs, so therefore it is not a rare amazing thing to watch or do anymore.

Me personally I used to go to the salsa clubs weekly but now I only go mabey once or twice in 3 months. Other things such as tango, breakdancing and my martial arts along with PS2 LOL have grabed my interests now.

I dont know what I am saying is making any sense at all, but this is why I think salsa is on a rapid decline in T.O., but I feel salsa will pick up again, salsa is getting back to the hardcore dancers, and eventually salsa will become one of those rare treats everyone is so amazed by and not something, that is a common occurrance, but I know it wont happen for a while, and when salsa does come back it will be on a fun level like a passtime sport and something that is taken so seriously that people stress themselves out while dancing -- Tango Prince

---

November 18 , 2002 -- Decline of salsa

Tango Prince,
You get the "Bold Statement of the Year" award by asserting that everyone in TO can dance salsa and that it isn't a rare thing anymore. Boy, do I ever wish that everyone in TO knew about salsa and that they could all dance. Wait a minute, then I'd be living in Cuba or Puerto Rico!

If salsa is on the decline why would Edwin Bonilla bother showing up? Why would there be a TO congress organized for next year? Why would the TO Salsa events listings be more jam packed than ever? Why would all the old and new dance instructors be doing great business?

Sure there are more clubs than ever and more nights to go out but I don't think that it's reached a saturation point at all. Most of the major are still packed on their popular nights and new people are learning about salsa all the time -- Josh

---

November 18 , 2002 -- Salsa on a decline in Toronto...part 2

I have read all the comments before and I would like to add to my previous comments that salsa in NOT on a decline. If anything, it is evolving, changing and growing in Toronto. With the proliferation of clubs, dance groups events all related to salsa...how can one even suggest such a thing?

Heck, Ana and Orville just won a big competition in SF this weekend which is sure to get Toronto more noticed internationally (or at least in North America). It is with the efforts of such talents and other pro-salsa people that we will sure realize that Toronto is one heck of a salsa city which continues to grow and thrive with the city.

I predict that 2003 will be an even bigger year for Salsa in Toronto as two salsa powerhouses Jen Aucoin and Stephanie Gurnon are putting on their own events that I am sure will have Toronto's salsa scene amazed.

That said, Toronto continues to be a popular salsa stop. Arthur