March 11, 2004 -- Question

.... TO salsa is the best, because it allows people to express their views. I am in no way associated with TOsalsa or United Salseros. I am not a big fan of their United Salseros' dancing style, but I admire the professionalism.

I have many posts on this website stating the Cuban style dancing is the best. How can you even imagine then that TOsalsa is slave of United Salseros? -- Chincub

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March 12, 2004 --

Hi! I'm a salsa baby compared to you all... I've only been dancing Salsa for the last 5 months and I've been going to United Salseros for lessons. I am very happy with their way of teaching and with the multi-level method that they use. Although I cannot always apply 'the moves' I learn from them to my club dancing, I appreciate the foundation and technique that I learn and the corrections/feedback they give me regarding my dancing. The instructors and assistant instructors are also friendly and helpful. I cannot speak for the lessons they hold at Seven because I've only been there once, I go to Martha Hicks for lessons on Saturdays.

I live outside of Toronto and only get a chance to go to lessons/clubs in the weekends. I hang out with a small group of people and don't know a lot of 'regulars/old timers'... -- Salsa-T

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March 12, 2004 --

Whether you like them or not you have to respect Unitedsalseros, who have brought so many new people to the salsa scene. Their work ethic, devotion and love of Salsa are next to none. They are great instructors with a great reputation, as are many other salsa schools.

Obviously they are a target of some nasty individual. I'm sure that it's the same person writing the same nasty things If not for US, many of the top instructors and dancers would not be around today. Who else has brought the salsa community together in the past as they have. If you look at their site you will notice that they are working with Ana on afro-cuban classes, and are open to all kind of styles of Salsa. They are always looking at ways to teach and introduce salsa to new people. I'll never forget when they announced in front of the whole class that we as students are to interpret what they teach us and that it is okay to look elsewhere for classes. Who else would say that? This great school should receive nothing but accolades. -- Anonymous

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March 13, 2004 -- United Salseros

The failure of Seven nightclub has nothing to do with United Salseros. It has everything to do with a small club trying to compete in one of the most agressive club districts in the country, and failing.

It also has to do with the end of the "Berlin" era. Berlin had been losing regulars for months before the name change and renovations. Once the location changed a lot of people figured it was time to move on once they realized that Seven could never replace one of their favourite clubs.

It is also possible that the promotors and DJing crew, considering the length of time they have been involved in this operation, no longer want to put up with the garbage that goes hand in hand with running a night in Toronto.

The Courthouse and Left Bank were once primier salsa nights and partially promoted by United Salseros. However, the major promotion company, Liberty, decided that they couldn't maintain both nights, and axed the Courthouse. ... readership who beleive the drivel posted ... need to wake up and brush up on some basic economics and recent Toronto history. -- Josh

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March 15, 2004 -- United Salseros

Dear TO salseros, Although I am no longer in the TO salsa scene I try to log on to both tosalsa & ... to keep myself updated with what's going on WRT the unjust comments written towards US.

These people are not only wicked instructors but also personal friends of mine who I have gotten to trust dearly. They are nice people and had never done anything to deliberately hurt a peer dance school or a fellow salsero/a. I do not understand why someone can be so immature to construct nasty comments and post them on their own website. If "the person" has anything to say why not say it to everyone's face. Better yet they can elect to host a press conference or broadcast their childish hatred on TV!!!!! Now look who's hiding!

It might seem to the world that as a personal friend of Teddy and Rene my opinion may sway to the subjective side. In fact Rene had told me to NOT post anything because we should not dignify invalid accusations like this by giving a response.

But I can't stand it anymore. All I know is that I have danced with many people from all over the world yet only a handful of them demonstrate the leading & following skills that US preaches. I have also taken privates with many of the top instructors in TO and not too many of them can remotely verbalize the art of dancing like Teddy and Rene. I believe US should be respected for that. Every instructor has his/her own forte and let's try to gauge based on personal experience. Don't mock anyone until you have experienced yourself. They try very hard to shape their classes so students get the most out of it. I know I would never have been able to dance without US and contrary to most less-well-informed readers' opinions US does encourage their volunteers and instructors to dance with new comers to the scene. This misconception is so unfair to them.

Teddy & Rene - I know I don't have to worry about you because I know you believe in what you do & you won't let this bother you. I am just here to say I miss you both. TO Salsera

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March 15, 2004 -- US bashing

Even though I am so not fan of US's approach to teaching ( overly technical forcing students to learn dancing choreography which frankly looks monotonous), it is their right to teach Salsa the way it pleases them to teach. If someone does not like the way they teach (like me) simply don't go there but let's not start a campaign against them. Salsero for ever.

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March 15, 2004 -- United Salseros Discussion

Hi Rose,

I have been a regular visitor to your site for a number of years now. I'm just a regular dancer, not a hot-shot, who dances salsa for social reasons and enjoyment with no other higher ambitions beyond enjoying myself and (hopefully) helping whoever I am dancing with have a good time as well.. I'll start off by saying that I am disheartened by seeing the salsa community in Toronto, as reflected in these websites, over that time becoming factionalized, intolerant and self-righteous. Rather than pursuing a mutual activity in an atmosphere of mutual respect, the salsa community seems to be self-destructing by dividing itself into factions vociferously advocating one style over an another, each faction clearly convinced of its own superiority and retreating into its corner. This cannot bode well for the future. We may all be attracted to the same art form (salsa) but mutual attraction without mutual respect is not sufficient to maintain a society, an individual relationship or even a casual dance partnership. Has society, in its pre-occupation with special interest groups duking it out for supremacy, lost its capacity for tolerance, understanding and "live and let live" ?

One of the unfortunate facts of life is that we see others from the inside (or ourselves) looking out while others see us from the outside looking in. Despite the claims of centuries of poetry, we cannot really touch each other's hearts, minds and souls ... there is always a "fog" through which we imperfectly try to peer into each other's beings and the capacity for misunderstanding is boundless. It is only by compassion, respect and by at least attempting empathy that we can partially overcome this situation, bridge this gap and understand what we see. There is usually some truth to be found on both sides.

It's easy to jump to the conclusion that the US crowd is a clique ... after all. one routinely sees them dancing together at clubs. But ... (as has been pointed out by others) people naturally dance mostly with people they know and practice steps with people from the same school. Personally, I have found the US crowd (those I have met - both students and teachers) extraordinarily welcoming despite the fact that I extremely rarely take any of their club lessons even if I am in the club at the time. You see them teach predominantly turning choreographies and placing quite a heavy emphasis on spinning ... does this mean they are "robotic" ? No ... it's just that that is the form of salsa they prefer to express themselves and/or enjoy themselves .. people are always free to take from a lesson what they like and discard what is not to their taste ... the teacher (any teacher) just shows possibilities. It's up to the student to decide what's comfortable, fun and leadable and what is not. For those who haven't realized it yet, it's a free country and you can dance however you like ... just accept that not everyone will like it and you, in turn, will not like the way everyone else dances either. No reason to be like Lilliputians fighting wars over which end of the egg to break.

Perception without understanding can be very misleading. My own club habits, for example, tend to be that I stand alone in a corner, rarely if ever ask a stranger to dance (dancing with acquaintances almost exclusively unless someone asks) and avoid those "mixer" dances (where the guys and gals line up and dance down the middle) like the plague. It's probably very easy for someone who doesn't know me to see this and deduce that I am arrogant and stuck-up, perhaps screening carefully who I dance with. Truth is that I stay in a corner because I am a smoker (and try to smoke along fringes rather than in the main dancing areas), alone because I am married but the people I dance with are usually single (so I don't want to reduce their chances of being asked by being too close and giving the impression that they are "taken"), and dance with acquaintances and avoid the mixers because I am shy with total strangers unless I can break the ice a bit BEFORE dancing with them and make sure that I'm not imposing (being older than most in a club and prone to being drenched ). So .. what people may see as arrogance is actually shyness and perhaps insecurity. Same can be true of those, like US students, possibly seen as cliquish .. it may (or may not) actually be shyness ... or perhaps a sign of insecurity in that they define themselves by the company they keep (as if their self-worth depends on how beautiful/handsome/talented the people are who they dance with or take the old adage that "you are judged by the company you keep" rather too seriously). You can't really tell just by looking and jumping to conclusions.

The SEVEN situation I cannot comment on, never having been there. Tequila, on the other hand, I used to frequent regularly some years back since its inception (I was one of about 3 people there on the day it opened). With absolutely no inside information, I would hazard a guess that the move was partially because both the service (e.g. at the bar) and the premises (in terms of cleanliness) were deteriorating badly over the years ... plus it had a concrete floor which many women of my acquaintance mentioned wreaked havoc with their feet. There were times when I couldn't buy a drink even if I wanted to because the bar was completely unattended (I usually have a wine or 2) and it was becoming difficult to convince anyone not there for the lesson to come to the place. That US should seek better premises (if this was their motivation for moving) seems perfectly understandable.

As far as being the "self-proclaimed in crowd", I have never heard anything of the sort from any of them. Sure their Web-site talks about how great their lessons are etc. but has anyone ever seen an advertisement which didn't extol the virtues of what it was advertising ? "BUY COKE ... TASTES AWFUL .. ROTS YOUR GUTS .. DISSOLVES YOUR BONES ! " ...

On the other hand, perhaps this discussion (and the one on cliques) has brought some things into the open which people have ignored or not realized . Regardless of anyone's intentions or motivations, some negative impressions (expressed forcibly by a variety of people) have obviously been made and some concerns of the salseras/salseros at large have gone unnoticed or unaknowledged. Such as ...

1) Rose ... you make frequent use of the term "regulars" as in ... "this is where the regulars are likely to hang out". I also bump into people who attend certain clubs week in and week out (every club has these) , but one gets the impression that you are referring to a specific group of people i.e. those that "matter", not, for example, the girls who sit week by week at Left Bank waiting for the chance to dance ... perhaps beginners or those not blessed with being drop-dead gorgeous in the currently accepted manner. Who are these "regulars" you speak of ? One can easily see how this could lead to the misconception (I hope) that you are referring to some "in" crowd.

2) Clubs and club teachers ... a complaint had been made during these discussions that where there are club lessons, free style dancing often does not start until 10 or later. When I first started salsa, most places had free style starting at 8:30 or 9 (e.g. at Tequila and Babaluu's). This still left some time for those who had to work the next day to get some dancing in without having to be a total wreck the next day. People, will risk late nights out for a while the initial enthusiasm (fanaticism ?) we all have is in full swing, but sooner or later they come to their senses and confine their dancing to Fridays and weekends because they have no valid alternative in the middle of the week. Is no club out there brave enough to try and cater to an earlier weekday crowd by either limiting the total lesson time to one (earlier) hour or dispensing with club lessons altogether to allow people to just go out and dance ? Look at the popularity of the Trinity practices and the growing enthusiasm for Stephanie's Sunday afternoon socials .. you are ignoring an available market and encouraging your own demise !!!

3) Also clubs ... if you must have lessons, must they be tied to one particular school ? Why not rotate teachers and styles regularly so that people get a taste of different styles (Cuban, New York on 2 etc.) WITHOUT HAVING TO GO ELSEWHERE !! Many dancers like to go to the same place week after week for the simple reason that it becomes routine and they build up acquaintances over time to dance with. They leave when they either get bored (from learning "more of the same" over an extended period) or the crowd that they are used to dissipates or decides to emmigrate "en masse" to a competitor which offers a different teacher or perhaps style. As an aside, it will also help to educate the dancer at large and perhaps result in some of the invective floating around between style groupies subsiding.

4) Drinking. ... face it. Most dancers drink very little because salsa is so complex now that you need all your wits, balance and ingenuity to survive on the dance floor and not make an ass of yourself, or perhaps clobber someone. Clubs either have to offer reasonable attractive (and profitable) alternatives to alcohol or someone should jump in to organize dancing in a congenial non-club venue catering to dancers.

I could go on but I'll stop here. The point is that while the charges against US are, in my opinion, unfounded there are some glaring problems in the salsa scene which need "fixing" if there is the will to solve the problem of club closings and the fragmented salsa scene. What formulas may have worked some years back now need revisiting if salsa in Toronto is to survive and attract new people. The signs of decay are evident for those who have eyes to see ... declining interest in salsa with a corresponding increase in schools which offer alternatives such as hip-hop and belly dancing to compensate.

Don't just off-handedly shoot the messenger because of the manner in which the message was delivered. Do not give in to the impulse to bury your heads in the sand ... Listen and ponder what is being said ... even on the "other" website.

Gabor

Hi Gabor, you must have spent a lot of time writing, and it’s most appreciated as it gives another viewpoint… and since you spent so much time on this, I will let you know that regulars means not the best dancers or instructors in the city, but regulars who go to the same clubs every week.

That’s what the term regulars mean to me… maybe to others it may infer something else, but you can’t please everyone, and everytime I write something, it would be ridiculous to put in a “definition” as in when I say “regulars” (the ones who you regularly see in the clubs), although that would be an interesting idea if I had hours outside of my real work to spend on the site as I used to. It’s a normal term used by dancers all over the world – where do the “regulars” hang out. Regulars can be Hispanic, if you’re talking about the Latin Fever crowd versus the downtown crowd which is more cosmopolitan, etc. You do bring up some interesting points, which Organizers may or may not have thought about, but then again, if I elaborate on some of your other points if I have time, then you will see it on the site.

As everyone says, there’s two sides to every story, depending on how you look at it and what makes sense. And honestly, I am not happy about how the scene is starting to look with this US bashing, because it’s not a topic that should be posted; but at the same time, for those who are honestly writing their opinion, such as yours, and many others on this page -– it gives food for thought, and gives an insight to dancers and instructors of what “regular” dancers feel about the salsa scene.

That is the type of feedback that would be of interest to organizers, reader and/or hardcore dancers such as myself -- not "I hate you" or "don't like you" email which doesn't promote the scene or give a good impression.

That's why I liked the salsa scene in general, it was less of a typical real bar club atmosphere and less of a pick-up scene -- more centered around partner dancing and the love of its music and culture. Rose

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March 16, 2004 -- Let The Real Demon Come Out Its Cave

Dear Rose,

I have taken many, many lessons with top instructors in Toronto, L.A., and New York, and I tell you that United Saleros is virtually the opposite of what they are being accused of. I have also taken some lessons with Dance to Live, Mambo Tribe, and Jennifer and Giovannie before Berlin closed, and United Salseros. I thought everyone of them were great, though not perfect.

The big question here is why United Salseros? Ponder on it. Let's attack a reputable dance school equals more ratings. I have no doubt that most of the negative posts on that site were made up. Some of the comments are "unreal." One even mentions some sort of physical threat. It's almost comedic. All of a sudden there's a hate club against United Salseros? ...

As one of the posters suggested, US is a school that will tell you truthfully what it is you need to learn, and do not act like they own you. Lately, there's also been comments that they are too technical...blah,blah and dancing should be fun. This is so ridiculous, frankly. Perhaps if you are woman like myself whose arms have been mangled by some rough guy you would appreciate what they are doing. Those who think this is what US is all about should just ask Rene amd Teddy directly why they do things the way they do, and it will probably shed some light why this dance school is revered by many. -- SL