March,
2005
Improper
Salsa Instruction
We will post constructive feedback
from our readers.
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Improper
Salsa Instruction |
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The Feedback.... September
18, 2004 -- about Kathe's e-mail about salsa instruction
September
19, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction September 20, 2004 -- salsa instruction and looking out on the floor I just wanted to ring in my agreement with Vanessa when it comes to the importance of adjusting to a crowded dance floor. One of my favourite dance partners isn't the guy who knows the most flashy turn patterns, but he is the one who takes best care of me on the dance floor. The guy I'm talking about is a superb all-round swing, tango and salsa dancer, and on of the things he does the best is placement on the floor. He never knocks into other couples, and I simply feel safe with him. I know that he won't send me into a triple-spin that ends up with my elbow in the back of the next girl's head, like I've experienced with other, "better" dancers. Last time I saw him (we don't live in the same city) I danced with him for an hour and a half straight. The Spanish Harlem Orchestra was on the scene. The floor was packed. And there was no one else in the room I could have enjoyed the night more with than this guy who seems to be born with eyes in the back of his head. -- Mari September 20, 2004 -- Anon's e-mail about salsa instruction What does a frame mean? It seems like "ballroom" jargon to mean stiff and wooden. What center? It seems to me, it would be easier to lose your balance if you don't down your right heel. Have you ever tried to walk without putting down your heels for a long time? You would fall right over. What form? The form they teach in ballroom schools? Salsa is a street dance. Straight, stiff, large steps, looking directly into your partner's eyes. If that's what you mean by form, more people should collapse their form more often. People should pay attention more to the music and the clave rather than their form. Just compare Ballroom Tango and Argentine Tango. Most people think Ballroom Tango has a lot of "form", "center" and "frame". Is that what you mean by these words? No, thanks. I'll stick to the Argentine Tango. To be fair, maybe I don't know what you mean by "form", "center" or "collapse of the frame". But I think I have some idea. Probably you mean something good. To do your multiple spins in one place in LA style or New York style, it helps you a lot to dance this way. People who dance this way, dance like ballet dancers. They have to use the stiffness in their arms to create momentum, their "form", their "center" to pivot very quickly in one spot. But too bad, ballet is not salsa dancing. Maybe you mean "form", "center" and "frame" as a good thing. Maybe you mean good balance or good posture. In Cuba and the rest of Latin America, where they teach you put down your right heel. These people don't have good "form" , "frame" or "center" ? It seems to me, that these are not the people falling in the nightclubs. It is the people who took these classes where they teach not to put their right heels down that are falling in the nightclubs. Also, if you are dancing close or dance on the spot (which is they way most Latin people in Latin America dance), not going down on your heel looks awkward and looks stupid and you could lose you balance easily. I don't like dancing here, because there is no partner connection. Like the leader guides the spins, the leader also guides the size of the steps, the direction of the cross body leads (not always straight). I hate when I dance and the girl can only dance the basic step the same size. It is like she already guessed what I am going to do. When I do a cross body lead, girls already guess that it is 180 degrees and they are there already. I try to spin the girl once, but they do double spins even though that is not what I wanted them to do. But of course, it is not there fault. It is the instructors' fault by telling this this is standard way for dancing salsa. It isn't. A lot of Latin dancing comes from Afro-Latin dances. I am sure you people would be criticizing Afro-Cubans for not have enough "frame", "form" and "center" when they are dancing guaguanco, rumba, etc. In Cuba, salsa dancing comes from rumba and guaguanco. -- Alex September 21, 2004 -- Anon's e-mail about salsa instruction Hmmmmm... Hey yall. hope all is well. I think what needs to be realized here is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.... For myself, my right heel does not touch the ground very often on the basic step..... Although, I still have that 'compression' effect in my appearance.....sometimes I will dance with my heel touchingto change my appearance but I stay aware of not sacrificing my weight too much to the back of me. I think that when it comes to a women collapsing backwards... Lets say after a spin or something, its hard to put her into something else especially if the song is fast. It may not have to be that she has to concentrate on not putting her heel down, but maybe be more aware of controlling her balance (???). IF ever I have the pleasure f meeting you, please ask me to show you.... I would be delighted. I always say that if something to you seems awkward, it doesnt mean that its wrong. God bless.... One Slang tongue -- Orville September 21, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Here is another topic for improper salsa dance instruction Why Dancing on 2 is Wrong First of all, Mambo comes from Cuba, not New York. There might be a debate which Cuban invented it, but there is no debate Mambo is Cuban. Even if you believe the doubtful opinion of the guy who says Mambo comes from Haiti, the Mambo that came to New York was from Cuba. Cuba was the place where Mambo developed and from where it became popular all around the world even if by some miracle it wasn't born in Cuba (which it was). Mambo is different from salsa music. You go to any music store and listen to both types of music. If it is different music, it should be danced differently. Doesn't that make sense? Why do they insist they are dancing Mambo if the music is salsa? You can't dance the quick-quick-slow "mambo"** step to mambo music. **(I will use the term "mambo" step to mean the left forward, right back (1-quick,2-quick,3-slow, to be better understood by salseros here. It is the basic step for LA and New York styles. But this term is wrong. Just like the term "cumbia" step was used wrongly to describe the old Toronto style of salsa dancing.) In fact, real mambo dancing is danced solo without touching or holding hands with your partner. In Cuban, LA and New York on 1 styles, the basic "mambo" step is used. Left foot forward, change weight, bring back the foot, right back, change weight, then feet together. There is no weight changing on the 4 and 8. In LA and New York on 1, the first step is the quick forward of the left foot. In Cuban style, it starts off with the slow on the right foot and then the first forward of the left foot. But basically, it is the same. It doesn't matter where you start. All these styles count the slow when the feet are more or less together. In New York style on 2 or "mambo" on 2, first, you have to do a cheat step by stepping back on your left foot, before resuming your basic "mambo" step. Ah, but their Mambo step is different. Their non-weight changing counts are on the 1 and 5, which basically means they are doing the slow when the feet are the farthest apart. They contend they are dancing on the 2, the downbeats of the music. LA, New York on 1, Cuban, and all the other salsa dancing styles are on the 1, which according to these New Yorkers is wrong and not the original way of dancing salsa music or their "mambo" music. How can all of these other styles be so wrong? They are not dancing on the downbeats. But they are still dancing a tiempo. This means they are still dancing the same in relation to the music. the numbers represent the clave. (it can be 2X3 also) X=represents the slow in the quick-quick-slow of the "mambo" step. LS=left foot slow RS=right foot slow a tiempo clave 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 X X X X LS RS LS RS Contra tiempo clave 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 X X X X RS LS RS LS They are not dancing contra-tiempo, they are just dancing a tiempo with the slow when the feet are farthest apart. You can actually do the slow when the feet are furthest apart, but you have to do this with your right foot in front and the left back. In other words the opposite of the on 2 "mambo" step. Doing this would be a natural extension of the "mambo" step for LA, New York on 1 or Cuban styles. Start dancing the regular on 1 "mambo" step with your left foot going forward and your right going back. Instead of putting your left so forward and your right so back, try passing your feet more. Instead of putting your feet exactly together when you do the slows (which you should never do, except maybe for styling), let them generously pass each other. Taken to the extreme, when you put your right forward and then your left back, it looks exactly like dancing on 2 except it is its mirror image. What makes dancing on 2 suspect is that you can't change from dancing on 2 to dancing on 1 or vice-versa or to any other form of dancing smoothly. You have to stop dancing and start all over again to dance from dancing on 1 to 2 or vice-versa. On the other hand, good Cuban dancers can change from a tiempo to contra tiempo and back again without breaking a sweat and without stopping in the same song. Dancing contra tiempo, you are dancing more with the precussion of the music. In a tiempo, you are dancing more with the melody of the music -- Chincub September 23, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction (Answer to Alex) I would like to comment on a few ideas originally posted by Alex: "What does a frame mean? It seems like "ballroom" jargon to mean stiff and wooden[...] Just compare Ballroom Tango and Argentine Tango. Most people think Ballroom Tango has a lot of "form", "center" and "frame". Is that what you mean by these words? No, thanks. I'll stick to the Argentine Tango." Clearly Alex is only a beginner in ballroom dancing or is only thinking about exploring that aspect of dance since it is obvious that he is still unclear on the terms. Also, when he writes, "most people" who is he talking about? Was there a public opinion poll I was not made aware of? Are we to assume, when he writes, "no, thanks" that he thinks ballroom Tango does not have form, center and frame? "To be fair, maybe I don't know what you mean by "form", "center" or "collapse of the frame". But I think I have some idea. Probably you mean something good..." Ah, dear me, the truth comes out... By the way, any human being -even Afro-Cuban dancers who put their heel down!-wether at rest, walking or dancing, HAS form, center and frame, also known as posture, center of gravity and center of kinetic awareness. Ask any biomechanics engineer. (or professional dance teacher) "It is the people who took these classes where they teach not to put their right heels down that are falling in the nightclubs." I am sure Alex, you can appreciate the fact that people dance at different levels of skill, whether they were born dancing, learnt on their own or took lessons here in Canada or in New Guinea. I am sure you have noticed that some of the so called "natural dancers" are amongst the worse drivers in the club scene and some of the people that look the best learn to dance from the people you criticize. "...not going down on your heel looks awkward and looks stupid..." Funny, but in most fast reaction sports like tennis, basketball, soccer, martial arts, and yes, DANCING, better balance and rate of displacement and reversal is achieved when on the ball of the foot. Some of the most gracefull athletes and dancers perform exclusively on their toes! "I hate when I dance and the girl can only dance the basic step the same size[...]But of course, it is not there fault. It is the instructors' fault by telling this this is standard way for dancing salsa. It isn't..." Alex you know very little about professional dance instructors if you think they would actually call anything STANDARD when it comes to salsa. What with it being the world's most popular dance, every dance instructor worth his clave knows that there is not just one way to dance it. "I am sure you people would be criticizing Afro-Cubans for not have enough "frame", "form" and "center" when they are dancing guaguanco, rumba, etc..." Well, actually... most dance teachers would not. A professional instructor will give you his/her professional opinion on what is the most efficient way for you to learn, but would respect your right to dance in whatever manner you find most satisfying. Now if you all want to read the funniest part of this post... I actually like to dance putting my heel down on the backbreak. Just like Alex. But this is only a matter of taste, especially if the music is not too fast. See, my first dance teacher (who hailed from Belgium of all places!) taught me that even when putting down my heel, my bodyweight should remain on the ball of the foot and that extending leg, knee, hips, etc, is only a matter of style. When the music is fast I usually dance heels up or take smaller steps -faster to complete-, so basically, I can dance Cuban style, LA style, NY style, Canadian style and if I keep an open mind soon I will master the Zimbabwean cross body lead! And yes, I am a dance instructor. Francisco September 24, 2004 -- response to Francisco in improper instruction Thanks for Orville for his comments. Although I disagree with him. His response shows that he is knows what he is doing and is classy doing it. He dances well too. See, Francisco, I have an open mind. But Francisco, I don't know you and I have never seen you dance. Please direct me to where I can see you perform. You seem to know a lot about ballroom dancing and sports, but too bad your knowledge about salsa dancing seems to be biased toward more Ballroom, North American mindset. It is pity, because salsa is Latin American music. Are you saying that Ballroom Tango doesn't look more stiff than Argentine Tango? They probably would use the words "technique" and "tense" to describe this rather than "stiff". For them this "stiffness" looks good, and it is this particular way of dancing. Using popular movies as barometer of popular tastes, Dirty Dancing 2, Dance with Me, Strictly Ballroom have all storylines where one (usually Latin) protagonist tries to teach the other Ballroom trained dancer to loosen and feel the music. Ballroom dancers are notorious for not knowing anything about music. Most people study LA and New York of dancing salsa because, they want to get away from that Ballroom look even though most Ballroom teachers teach salsa dancing (probably for economic reasons). So, I feel safe in saying that most people think Ballroom dancing looks "stiff", but they would use the words "technique", "correct posture" and "tenseness, which is exactly the look they are going for. Kudos for them. Francisco, I am total agreement with you that all people who are at rest, walking or dancing have a frame. Anon is the one who says not putting your heel down helps you not collapse your frame. I even asked her what about all those Cuban, and Latin American dancers who dance when they put down their heel, don't they have a frame? Not all Latin American people can do the basic step well, but they are taught to dance with their heel down. I have no doubt the best athletes or dancers dance on their toes or on the balls of their feet. But I hate people who compare salsa dancing to a sport. Salsa is not dancesport. In tennis, basketball, martial or soccer, althetes have to run or move quickly to the side or forward. Are coming this to salsa dancing? Even in these sports, these althletes only stay on their balls or toes for a few seconds and then relax. Can you imagine running or jumping for 10 minutes (2 or 3 salsa songs) on your toes with stopping. If you can do that Francisco, I would like to see it. Salsa dancing is not ballet. As far as I know, their is no ballet influence in the music or dance of salsa. But there is a lot influence from rumba, Cha Cha Cha, mambo and son in Salsa music, guaguanco(not the Ballroom rhumba or Cha Cha). Francisco, you know how to dance guaguanco or Cuban Rumba? What do you mean by natural dancers? I would say most natural dancers are people who haven't been taught. People who grew up the music. Maybe their parents listened to it and dance it at parties with their friends. Usually these people are Latin American, because salsa is more popular in Latin America than here. For them, dancing is more social than showing off. For example, most Colombians dance closer than most North American salseros and do fewer spins. The people who are dancing closer and spinning less. Do you think these are the people falling and stepping on people in the clubs? Granted there are some Latin American people who can't dance very well and some of their spins are horrible. Most of the Latin American people who learned to dance in South America or Central America never learned to spin well, but feel like they have to do more spins here because of the expectations of people in North America. But look at the Latin people from Cuba, Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic, they almost NEVER fall down, trip or hit people in clubs. They do their steps small and their turns are soft. But North American sadly never pay attention to these dancers in the clubs. I hate people who say they can dance all styles or their styles incoporate the best of all styles. Even Rene from United Salseros admits he can't dance Cuban salsa very well. You must be one incredible dancer, Francisco. I would really like you to see you dance Columbia or guaguanco. I would like to see you dance next to Juan Carlos, the great Cuban dancer who lives here and see if you can follow him. I want to see if anyone would guess your dancing looks anything Cuban. Of course, they is a standard way. If you are not doing the cha cha cha in Cha Cha Cha, you are not dancing the standard way. One of the reasons you won't say there is standard way of dancing columbia or guaguanco is probably you can't these dances. If you can't dance rumba (columbia, guaguanco, son), you can't really dance Cuban style salsa, Cuban style salsa comes from these dances. Salsa instructors always teach the way the know. If I danced Cuban Cha Cha Cha for a ballroom teacher, she would have a fit even though Cha Cha Cha is from Cuba. September 24, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction You guys are right about improper salsa instruction. I went to Babalu's last Wednesday, I almost went to the hospital. Elbow in the face, stepped on, body checked. And they don't even say that they are sorry. Usually people who know that they are beginners will saysorry. It is the guys who think they dance well or are advanced dancers from various dance schools that are hitting people. What's up with that? You might think you are such a good dancer that you are entitled to more space because people want to stare at your amazing dancing. But some people just want to go and have a nice time. I am just dancing with by boyfriend closely not occupying much space and my boyfriend tries to avoid the other dancers, but we get hit from all sides. I would really like to hear from these dancers, because they make up 70-80% of the dancers out on the dance floor. And these guy are not beginner s. Theyare the guys who think they know something and they want to show off. The real professionals like Oscar, Teddy, Vanessa never hit anybody. But you guys who are hitting and stepping on us probably don't even know you are hitting and stepping on people. They are so oblivious to the balance and co-ordination of their bodies. Maybe you are taller than me and my boyfriend, maybe you need a little bit more room. But you are not twice as tall as us. So, why are taking up twice the room? You can't do your fancy move you learned in an empty dance studio and do it in Babalu's. It's too small and crowded. Please look around and dance. About Francisco comment about standard dancing. Most salsa instructors will never tell you there are other ways of dancing salsa. Go to Arthur Murray and ask them to teach you Cuban Rumba, Cuban Cha Cha Cha or Argentine Tango. They will tell you tell these styles haven't been Internationalized enough. So, I went to well known salsa teacher here. I told her I wanted to learn Casino. She told she didn't have Casino Rueda classes just now. But I told her I wanted to learn Casino dancing not the Rueda. She just gave me a blank look. Then, she told me to show her what I knew of salsa dancing. I learned in Cuba, the son montuno. She told me it was good, but she could improve my dancing. I went to one week of dance school and Cuban and I was the best one in my class and they said I had no problems with my basic steps. Well, eventually, she completely changed my basic step. My point is that they might say there is not standard for dancing salsa. But they will only teach you want they know. And this lady didn't know anything about the basic Cuban salsa steps. Para nada. And they won't work with what you know, because they can't. -- Rachel September 24, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction Thank you Francisco, perhaps you can teach Alex about framework. But then again he'll probably think that you are teaching him some ballroom steps. Alex, chill the *$^#$*& out. Before you go on rampage understand what somebody is trying to say. As Francisco said, everybody has frame, some more rigid or softer than others. Being stiff and crashing your weight down may cause not only cause you to lose your balance but also your speed and affect your partner. You can put your foot down flat if you like. Dance the way you want. But if you are not having the same problem as others and unless you are correcting them at the clubs and showing them to dance with their weight on the front part of their feet, listen and understand the words that are coming out of my mouth, well, may being typed out of my hands. Chincub, ha ha ha. Your religous pro-Cuban attitude has put a smile on my face and made my day. Thank you for amusing me. -- Anon September 25, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction Chincub, Seeing as how you view yourself as an expert on Cuban dancing, could you please describe and explain to everyone how to dance the following dances: 1. Son 2. Guaguanco 3. Rumba 4. Casino 5. Columbia 4. Son Montuno 5. Son Bolero 6. Mozambique 7. Timba 8. Guajira -- Carlos September 25, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction Alex, You are wrong about the level of Salsa's popularity in Latin America. Salsa is more popular in North America & Europe than it is in Latin America. What IS popular in Latin America is LATIN ROCK, US POP MUSIC, HIP-HOP, REGGATON & MERENGUE. You'll have better chances of finding Jimmy Hoffa than finding a Salsa Club in Latin America (these clubs are minimal at best). -- Carlos September 25, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction - response to Anon Anon, If you everybody has frame, how can somebody "crash" or collapse their frame? These are the "words" that are coming out of your mouth or rather your e-mail. Actually, it was Alex who stated indirectly that everybody has frame and center. He asked you whether you thought Latin dancers who learn with their right heel down don't have frame or center. Your own words imply some people have frame and other don't. I am disturbed and worried about your pro North American views on Salsa dancing particularly when salsa is Latin American music. It is too sad you resort to swearing and name calling because you don't know seem to know much about salsa music and dance. So, you can't make a decent comeback. A better rebuttal would be if you criticized on the points I made in my e-mail. Then just saying I am pro-Cuban. I hope you don't drag this thread into more accusations and name calling. It is rather childish. Stick to the issues. -- Chincub September 25, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction - Answer to Anonymous Anon, You are the one who wrote "once you learn not to crash/collapse your frame then you can put your heel down". That certainly implies an absence of "frame" is certainly possible. "collapse" of frame means that they have less frame then before, no? Now you are backtracking and you are saying that everyone has frame. I am confused. It was Alex who implied indirectly that everyone has frame when he asked you whether or not Latin American people have frame when they danced without putting down their right heel. I agree with your revised opinion that everybody has frame. I don't think there was anything remotely funny about my e-mail. Your attitude reminds me of the people who go to the movies and laugh, but laugh sarcastically at the scenes that no one would find funny. It is a way of drawing attention to themselves and saying they are above everything. Nowhere in my e-mail did I say anything about Cuba being the best or salsa is Cuban music or Cuban style is the best. I think it a valid criticism of what people accept as the truth. I mean you would have really burned me if you said anything about what my e-mail contained. But probably it was over your head and you don't have enough knowledge about salsa music and dance to make a good rebuttal. But instead you resorted to name calling (pro-Cuban) and swearing. (I am pro-Cuban, but why can't you criticize my arguments without calling people this or that). You are criticizing my person, not my views. Especially, when being pro-Cuban has nothing to do with citicizing dancing in 2. I could also call you a pro-North American salsero. -- Chincub September 25, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction (answer to Alex) Just a few more comments on some of Alex's previously posted responses, and I quote: “But Francisco, I don't know you and I have never seen you dance. Please direct me to where I can see you perform. You seem to know a lot about ballroom dancing and sports, but too bad your knowledge about salsa dancing seems to be biased toward more Ballroom, North American mindset. It is pity, because salsa is Latin American music.” Sure, anytime you want, come to Montreal, where people do not give a hoot about what style you dance as long as you are having fun. And if you ever see me in a club you will notice that I do no perform. I have fun. I find it curious that you think I am biased toward ballroom dancing, being that my first calling was folkloric dances. But like you say, you’ve never seen me dance. ”Are you saying that Ballroom Tango doesn't look more stiff than Argentine Tango? They probably would use the words ‘technique’ and ‘tense’ to describe this rather than ‘stiff’. For them this ‘stiffness’ looks good...” No, Alex. I did not say that. In fact I asked a question. Read my post again if you want to. I wanted to know if you were implying that ballroom Tango is devoid of frame, center and form. Also, who is ‘they’? ”Using popular movies as barometer of popular tastes […] have all storylines where one (usually Latin) protagonist tries to teach the other Ballroom trained dancer to loosen and feel the music. Ballroom dancers are notorious for not knowing anything about music.” No Alex, the only thing you can deduce from movies is that movie producers do not know anything about dancing, ballroom or otherwise. As for ballroom dancers not knowing anything about music it is like saying, cubans do not know anything about salsa. While it may be true about SOME of them, it is irresponsible to make a broad generalization like that one. “Most people study LA and New York of dancing salsa because, they want to get away from that Ballroom look even though most Ballroom teachers teach salsa dancing (probably for economic reasons).” Funny, from where I look at it, most people learning any style of salsa do not even have an inkling of what ballroom dancing looks like. And concerning “economic reasons”; I believe there is a LOT more money being made by ballroom teachers teaching ballroom than by teaching salsa. The average price of a private hour of ballroom dance instruction in Canada hovers around $65.00. Ask any salsa teacher if he or she could stay in business charging that kind of money for private salsa classes. ”Francisco, I am total agreement with you that all people who are at rest, walking or dancing have a frame. Anon is the one who says not putting your heel down helps you not collapse your frame.” And, from a biomechanical point of view, Anon IS right! ”But I hate people who compare salsa dancing to a sport. Salsa is not dancesport. In tennis, basketball, martial or soccer, athletes have to run or move quickly to the side or forward. Are coming (sic) this to salsa dancing? Even in these sports, these athletes only stay on their balls or toes for a few seconds and then relax.” I compare Salsa and all dancing to sport, just like I compare it to walking, running, climbing, jumping and all every-day activities the human body engages in. I think Salsa, and all other dances are the result of a natural process through which the human body explores the full range of mobility. Should dancing (salsa included) be considered a sport? Not in the traditional sense. It can not be scored or measured like a traditional game so I conclude that even though it is a great physical activity, it remains in the artistic realm. ”Can you imagine running or jumping for 10 minutes (2 or 3 salsa songs) on your toes with (sic) stopping. If you can do that Francisco, I would like to see it.” Sure it can be done, just go to a latin club and check out any technically trained dancer do the salsa, not for ten minutes, but the whole night. “Salsa dancing is not ballet. As far as I know, there is no ballet influence in the music or dance of salsa. But there is a lot influence from rumba, Cha Cha Cha, mambo and son in Salsa music, guaguanco…” Believe it or not, but ballet has not really influenced any social dances, ballroom or otherwise. If anything, ballet is the technical refinement of the basic elements of all other dances. Still, there is not one single dance style that can not be broken down into ballet elements. “…But look at the Latin people from Cuba, Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic, they almost NEVER fall down, trip or hit people in clubs. They do their steps small and their turns are soft. But North American (sic) sadly never pay attention to these dancers in the clubs.” Again, Alex, you make a very broad generalization. You are saying they do not hit people in clubs because they are latin? Or because they are good dancers? I have been dancing for a few years now, and I’ve been hit in clubs by people of all sizes, colours and nationalities. That means nothing, other that they were not looking where they were dancing or they did not care about the way they danced. “I hate people who say they can dance all styles or their styles incorporate the best of all styles. Even Rene from United Salseros admits he can't dance Cuban salsa very well.” The ‘I hate…’ line seems to appear often in your posts Alex. Take it easy. Just because someone is proficient in several styles of dance does not make that person worthy of your contempt. We all have something to learn. As for Rene, the man is an expert at breaking down steps and helping people understand how dancing works. I respect him enough to not give a damn what kind of salsa he may be an expert at doing. Besides, what is the point? " You must be one incredible dancer, Francisco. I would really like you to see you dance Columbia (sic) or guaguanco. I would like to see you dance next to Juan Carlos, the great Cuban dancer who lives here and see if you can follow him. I want to see if anyone would guess your dancing looks anything Cuban. […] One of the reasons you won't say there is standard way of dancing columbia (sic) or guaguanco is probably you can't these dances.” First, thanks for the compliment. I seldom get that, sight unseen. I do not dance Columbia, but I am pretty good at cumbia. Love the guaguanco, son, huapango and guaracha. And when I dance, I dance because I love it and it is fun. I couldn’t care less if I dance like someone else. My dancing probably does look Cuban. And Colombian, Puertorican, Mexican, Brazilian and probably Swedish too. I do not think there is a standard way of doing any dance. Sure there are basic elements, but the way each dancer interprets the music will change even the most common steps Last question: what do you mean I can't these dances? Dance, teach, recognize, comment on, judge, admire...? -- Francisco September 26, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction I think it's rather mundane that people are arguing about whether or not to put your right heel down on the back step when you're doing a basic. Honestly, how many times do you do a basic step when you are dancing?? Unless you're a beginner, you would probably only do a basic step when: 1)you're transitioning; 2)you're tired; or 3) you've run out of "moves". I personally don't put my right heel down when I'm doing a basic, but will put my heel down many times doing the course of a song, i.e. during walk sequences or shines. I have a question: is it possible to over analyze something? I think sometimes, because of our passion for this dance, we get a little carried away with the science or mechanics of salsa. I've been guilty of this. I think it takes away from the joy of salsa somewhat. -- Vansalsero September 26, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction Just a comment for Chincub. You had written "If it is different music, it should be danced differently. Doesn't that make sense? " I agree ... it does make sense. I am also from a folkloric background like Francisco and, based on my experience in folklore, I would respectfully point out that for "living" dances the reverse of your statement is also true ... people in different places and from different backgrounds will very often dance to the same music differently. It is not uncommon at all when researching folklore dances to find two villages 5 miles away from one another having the same music but where people dance very differently to it (different steps, different style). This is a sign that the dance is still a living part of the dance culture and still a means of individual or local communal expression. I would be very surprised if you told me that this (pronounced regional and local variation) is not the case in Cuba too. Standardization comes when a dance is "dead" as a part of local culture and is formalized through dance schools and/or choreographed for performing groups as a sort of historical recreation of "what once was" or "is ... somewhere else". Salsa appears to me to be in that no man's land between still being a living, thriving dance and a piece of history. Transmission of the dance here and most places I think is now overwhelmingly by formal professional instruction (except maybe in Cuba ?) and thus has local standards. Only the fact that these standards are very loose (i.e. that very few people elsewhere try to dance exactly like a Cuban, a New Yorker or someone from LA or anywhere else) keeps it alive. This "looseness" leaves salsa open to a wide interpretation and makes it adaptable to many people's local backgrounds and temperaments rather than requiring the dancers to supress these traits artificially in favour of copying totally another culture's. So ... what would you prefer ? That far fewer people around the world would do salsa but would try to "correctly" stick to its Cuban stylistic roots ... becoming "pretend Cubans" ? Or that people all over the world continue to dance salsa, derive huge enjoyment from this gift to the world of the Cuban and Puerto Rican people .. but dance it in the way that seems best and most enjoyable to them based on their own local inclinations ... even if it is wildly "incorrect" from the Cuban purist perspective ? I would choose the latter. To me, the purity, the virtuosity, the technical details of the dance itself or the opinion of the people watching (if any) is not more important than the people themselves who are dancing it. heel up ? heel down ? on 1 ? on 2 ? a tiempo ? contra tiempo ? New Yorkian ? Colombian ? ... what do I care as long as the person I am dancing with for those minutes is smiling and enjoying the dance and the moment ? It seems ironic to me that, in a way, you and many people in this thread are coming very close to the very ballroom attitude you criticize !!!! Your arguments about whether or not to put down your heel and what beat to step/break on are just like applying ballroom judging principles to salsa ("was the weight on the inside edge of the ball of the foot ? Did they break on the second beat as required ? Was the weight visibly "into the ground"). You just have alternate rules you wish to apply but seem just as dogmatic in your approach !!! Is this what salsa is becoming ? Is how exactly to dance salsa and promoting any one style over another really worth arguing about in the long run ? Or should we be talking about ways to spread its popularity to ensure its survival so that 10 years from now we can still have places to dance it here (in whatever style) beyond in people's basements or maybe community halls ? Gabor September 27, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction Listen to all of you! Complaining how Salsa should be danced?!?!? Who made up the damn rules anyway?!?!?!? I'm sorry to say but flips, trips n' dips is NOT salsa. I'm a strong believer in people expressing THEMSELVES through their dancing, not mechanical goofy's counting "...5,6,7,8". It's about the music and how each person feels it in their own way. Not by a DVD or video tape telling you "It's like this!!...please buy Volume II to this video!" ...It's not about how a dumb heel is placed! Ya'll need to start drinking decaf and go back to roots. Salsa is a celebration of music...not a competition... And stop hoggin' the dancefloor.... RF September 27, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction Dear Vanessa, Chincub, and Alex: It is too easy to criticize dance instructors and dancers. Not to hitting people at a dance club is a matter of common sense, and has nothing to do on weather you put your heel down or not, dance instructors will give you the tools to dance salsa, and is up to you to develop your own style and learn not just how not to hit people, but to be aware of other things like the waiter coming with drinks, a chair, a table, a cigarette etc. You can dance in a small area, and still provoke an accident. They do not teach this at dance schools because dance instructors are teaching to adults not to kids, and they know that you can figure out this by yourself. I do not think that any instructor wants you to dance exactly like him/her, but to develop your own style with the tools that they are given you. You can get hit not only in a salsa club, but in any other club, try to dance in a club where they are dancing country square dance fast, where guys are doing funky break dance moves, or where a guy just get “carried away” dancing, this happens in all kind of clubs and with all kind of music, and can not be blamed to certain style of dance instruction, but to the dancer itself. It is important to choose the place that is better for you to dance, that is why I do not go to babalu`s, because I know there is not space to dance, I go to the clubs where there is space big enough to dance, or I wait until the dance floor is clear, there are many clubs you can pick. But if you go to a dance club that is crowded, or if you go to a heavy metal concert where they are “dancing” slam, well you may get hit. But it is up to you to learn how to avoid elbows ( like Neo in the movie” the matrix”), a drink spilled on the floor, a beer cover etc. It is all part of going out to a dance club, not just to a salsa club. There are many parties for seniors where you guys can go and be safer. Do you guys go out dancing and that is what you see? If dancers put down their heel? you should get yourselves a life. I may remember a couple who dances smooth, with passion, who uses different turn patterns, dips, shines, styles to interpret a song, who puts a spin, shine, a dip where it belongs, a couple who plays, improvise and is melting, because is fun to watch. I think that it is not fair to criticize the way someone dances social, call people idiot, say that it looks bad, awkward, unless you are a judge and you are in a dance competition( and not even), and giving the only argument that it is not Cuban. Chincub and Alex have been talking too much on how salsa should be danced, and have been criticizing many styles and dancers. Why don’t you guys send us a video of you guys dancing (I would love to se that), so we can all give our opinion. Papacito September 27, 2004 -- Maybe the final word on Improper instruction? Thank you for the people who responded. Orville's e-mail was interesting and thought provorking. Francisco e-mail should a deep understanding of dance and a real desire to have an honest debate. Anon's first e-mail was pretty good. But Anon's second e-mail seemed less productive and more vindictive. I think Chincub got off topic although I agree dancing on 2 needs be reconsidered. It is ironic that another Van (I think) wrote the last e-mail that made me write in again. It is Vansalsero's kind of vision of salsa dancing that needs rethinking. If I make Vanessa and other people rethink they way they dance salsa, then this debate would have served some purpose. Everything in salsa dancing is the basic step. Spins and shines are basically a variation on the basic step. Cross body leads are an extension of the basic step. As I said before most people here think as Vansalsero pointed out in his e-mail, the basic step is for 1) beginners when :1) you are tired, 2) you've run out of moves. As I wrote before, sure if you are doing the basic step like one big step forward and then one step back (LA style and new New York style), then maybe what you say is true. But people who have some sense of history of Latin and salsa dancing know this is totally false. The most beautiful dancers in the world just do variations on the basic step, just watch some older dancers who dance in the Palliadium in New York or older people who know how to dance in Cuba. I agree that sometimes people over analyse salsa dancing. But Canadian people always want an explanation why most Latin American people think salsa dancing in Toronto is mechanical or stiff. Other Latin people unable to express what they mean resort words like "passion" and "soul" and "heart" which don't really mean anything. I mean who doesn't think they dance with "passion" or "soul"? I am trying to put my ideas in concrete form so that Canadians can understand. The reason why many non-Latin people look stiff for many Latins has to do with the "basic" step. Of course, they can do their basic step "one big left forward step, quick, quick slow", one big right backward, quick, quick slow. But they can't dance the step a little smaller. They can't move their foot on the second quick (a staple of Cuban dancing). They can't tap either on the 3 or 4 or both which would really show they know the music. They can't move to the side with the basic step (I don't mean the cumbia step). They can't make their basic stay in place or walk around. Or make their cross body leads bigger or smaller. They can't move their hips (shines excepted of course). Ask a advanced New York or LA style dancer to do the Cuban son montuno step, they can't (never mind if they want). Son montuno makes up most salsa songs. Ask them to clap out the clave on salsa songs and they can't. Most of the dancers out there in the clubs are not dancing to the clave. They are either dancing too fast or too slow. What I am saying is there is a lack of variation in the way people dancing here. Most South Americans dance salsa closer and with smaller steps. Would you say they are beginners? Alex made a good point. Dancing here seems too choreographed. Try to the basic step or cross body lead a different way and people want to fight it. Cuban dancers who try to do 90 degree cross body lead, find the girls already at 180 degrees. Try to do a cross body lead with an opposite hand and they are already spinning them. Do one spin and already in their third spin. What is lacking is a real partner connection. Vansalero, that's great you think salsa dancing is about passion and joy. But your dancing was not result of your invention. Someone taught you to dance that way. You might get a joy out of spinning really hard, doing your shines, showing off with your arms and dips. But there is much greater joy in following the music and clave, being in sync with the music and your partner. Afterall, it is salsa dancing, not salsa spinning. Spins are great, but when they make up 99% of your dancing? -- Vanessa September 28, 2004 -- Salsa instruction (Question to chincub) Hi, chincub; my name is Monikka and I have a few questions for you regarding that long explanation about dancing on2 that you recently posted. 1.- What exactly is dancing on clave? I have never understood how a salsa step made of six movements can be danced on a clave that (correct me if I am wrong) has only five strokes -3-2 or 2-3. 2.- Are not on2 dancers really dancing on 1 but doing their forward and back breaks a beat late? 3,- Do you mean to say that dancing "a contra tiempo" means you take your steps between beats as opposed to on the beats? Please help me understand. Also, are you a dance teacher? If so, where do you teach? Monikka September 29, 2004 -- Improper Dance Instruction Let me begin this post by explicitly stating that the following comments/queries are not meant to be construed as personal attacks in any way. Phew. Having gotten that out of the way... Chincub and others who think dancing On 2 needs to be "reconsidered".... The way you describe dancing On 2 makes it seem like some people just got together recently to try something new. From what I understand, New Yorkers, Puerto Ricans, Colombians (yes, it's true), and others, have been dancing this way for a looong time. How can it be "suspect"? How can it be "reconsidered"? Are you suggesting going to NY on some sort of "Anti-On 2-Educational Crusade" to let thousands of dancers in on the fact that their dancing style is "suspect"? These forums are pretty good but the Salserosweb guys have you all beat... Josh People! Check out this link? Chincub, I'd love to hear what you have to say... http://www.dancefreak.com/stories/2clave.htm September 30, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Thanks for your feedback on my previous correspondance, Vanessa. I think you should re-read what I initially wrote. You'll realize that you and I are actually saying the same thing!! I agree with you 100% -- Vansalsero p.s. please don't group me into one of those "dips, drops, tricks, and spins" dancers. I am absolutely NOT one of them! ;-) September 30, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction I'm responding to some comments regarding the "incorrectness" of the 2, as well general comments regarding the forum, and more specifically, to Monikka;s questions. "What exactly is dancing on clave? I have never understood how a salsa step made of six movements can be danced on a clave that (correct me if I am wrong) has only five strokes -3-2 or 2-3." Dancing "on clave," means using the clave to guide your steps, especially to find you starting point, and keep your tempo. The clave is played on an 8-count measure. The 2-3 clave hits on 2,3,5,6.5,8 and the 3-2 clave hits on 1,2.5,4,6,7. An experienced dancer will listen for the clave to not only find his/her starting point, but to feel the music to the point where his/her shines and movements follow its syncopated unevenness. A New York male on2 dancer dances the 2-3 clave like this: On the 8 count measure: 1- LF Back 2- RF Back (past LF), 1st Clave hit 3- LF Forward, 2nd Clave Hit 4- RF is off the ground, moving forward 5- RF Forward, 3rd Clave Hit 6- LF Forward (past RF) 6.5 - 4th Clave Hit 7- RF Back 8- LF is off the ground, moving back, 5th Clave Hit "Are not on2 dancers really dancing on 1 but doing their forward and back breaks a beat late?" It depends what style of 2 they dance. Razz-M-Tazz dance company in New York, dances in the form you describe. They hold for the first beat, then dance like an on1 dancer would, only a beat later. So their basic step is not 1-2-3, 5-6-7, but 2-3-4, 6-7-8. If Im not mistaken, this is also the basic for Ballroom on2. New York on2 however (the style taught by Eddie Torres, and thus pretty much everyone else), starts forward with the right on 1, forward with the left on 2 (past the right foot), back with the right on 3, back with the left on 5, back with the right on 6 (past the left foot), back with the left on 7. So what happens here is that the dancer is still breaking on the second beat, but dancing on 1-2-3, 5-6-7. Now for my defense of dancing on 2. I strongly feel that the 2 is in perfect harmony with the rhythm of salsa (A view espoused by NY on2 dancers and many musicians). A NYon2 dancer is always following the strongest "pushes" in the music. We start with the first major downbeat of the measure, which is the strongest downbeat (1), then we break on the slap of the tumbao, but what further accentuates the break is the first hit of the 2-3 clave, as I explained before (2). Then we start the second half of the measure with the other major downbeat (less emphasis than the first one) (5), and once again break on the second slap of the tumbao rhythm (6). NY on 2 is in perfect harmony with the rhythm in salsa, and follows it more closely and accurately than dancing on any other count. For a more detailed description and analysis (much better than I could ever give) on the New York 2, go here: http://www.salsanewyork.com/ourdancemusic.htm As for stepping on my heel when I back break, I guess it depends on the tempo of the music, and what movement I want to accentuate at that point. In general though, I prefer to stay on my toes (not fully extended, but with the heel about an inch off the ground). Not only does this allo me to be more graceful, but it also allows me to move more swiftly and easily. Regarding bumping on dance floors, that are just lots of people who have no common courtesy and want to take up all the space on the dance floor with blatant disregard for others. What's sadder is that many so called "advanced" dancers get so wrapped up in themeselves and hat they're doing, that they bump into and crash into other dancers on the floor. A true master is the person that can do everything the "flashy" guy is doing, but still keep within a 2ft x 2 ft box. Finally, dont worry so much about what everyone else is dancing on or what style it is as long as they're having fun, and you are as well, and you guys aren't bumping into each other. Its all about having fun. Connect with your partner, smile, enjoy the sensual rhythms, and dont hurt anyone else while you do it. -Ariel P.S. Im going to be at the Congress next weekend, performing and just enjoying. I look forward to dancing in Toronto and meeting some of you guys. Take care! October 1, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Hi everyone, I found this a very interesting topic, but I would like to remind you all that there is no need in badmouthing salsa styles, dance styles, dancers that differ from you. We are all dancers and we shouldn't be putting each other down, let's keep it a constructive discussion. I also want to comment that I am originally from a ballet background, and I can tell you that really good\proffesional ballet and ballroom dancers never look stiff, on the contrary what makes them great is their ability to dance as if they're making no effort at all , you would rather describe their dance as flowing energy. Someone also made a comment about dancing on toes for 10 min straight, just to give you an Idea -an average practice is 1.5-2 hours long and most of it is done on your toes. I have been dancing for 15 years one kind of dance or the other. What I have learnd during that time is that "centre" is about all of your movments and energy coming from the same place which is the centre of the body and not looking stiff or robot-like. And "keeping your frame" refers to - not making any movments that look unnatural to your body such as pushing your chest out too much or moving a hand and shoulder to a point when it's almost dislocating. To answer those of you who are complaining about instructors and their ignorance. All instructors are first off all students by themselvs who learn and improve endlessly (they don't claim to know evrything about a dance)and if an instructor is not willing to learn from their student, they shouldn't be teaching in the first place -- Olga October 1, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Carlos, Have you been to Latin America? How much of North America, do you know? Have ever been to Puerto Rico or Cuba? I think most people exaggerate the popularity of salsa in Latin America. But do you really think salsa more popular in North America than Latin America? Are you nuts? Most Latin American people have heard of salsa music and seen salsa dancing. Maybe they know Celia Cruz. 90% of Canadian people have never seen salsa dancing or know really what salsa music sounds like. Put salsa music in an average Canadian party, see what reaction you get. On the other hand, put salsa music at a Latin party and see what reaction you get. You have to visit more Canadian nightclubs than Babalus, El Rancho. Have you noticed it is the same people who go to these clubs? A few hundred people in a city of 4 million doesn't make it popular. -- Alex October 5, 2004 -- Proper Salsa Instruction OMG!! I can't believe all of these people critizing each other. Let's face it, there is nothing wrong with dancing on '3', '2', or '1', as long as they are consistent... let's be realistic, some people just WANT to dance, and maybe some already know that they can't get the beat but they love the music, and they love the social aspect of it....PEOPle LET THEM BE. Dance teachers can only do so much, but the one thing that they be teaching is the etiquette on the dance floor, (but then again, they can only do so much), if the teacher keeps repeating the etiquette, maybe it will stick to the students mind. Such as don't use a move that will take so much space that it will literally bump your partner to another couple dancing, or taking too much of a big step. Teaching the men, not to quadruple spin a girl who they know does not have the balance after turn once....please... it's just a dance.....get a life....... don't use your dance partner as a bulldozer to create more space!!!...if it's crowded, use more free style, guaguanco or something....do you really need to tick off a lot of people so that you can show off your moves. and as for 'forms' 'centre'... everybody has their own taste...if you are pleased with your 'form' that's all that matters...dance for yourself and don't listen to the dance snobs who are 'experts' on what dance should be....if the girl follows or you felt good about the guys lead...and you're not being yanked....hey...then that's a good dance!! Alexi October 5, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Alex, Yes I have been to Latin America. In Cuba, HIP-HOP is one of the most popular forms of music. More Cubans dance to HIP-HOP than salsa. Please understand that just because a person is Cuban that does not mean that he/she listens to or dances to salsa music - just like not every Anglo-American listens to or dances to country music. I also don't believe that "it is in my blood" nonsense. That is absolute rubbish. Do white Americans have the "two-step" in their blood? Do Japanese people have karate in their blood? That is all nonsense. In Puerto Rico, REGGAETON & MERENGUE are some of the most popular types of Latin music next to U.S. pop music. Salsa clubs in PR are rarity to find. There is and there always has been more salsa bands and salsa clubs in New York than in Puerto Rico. In fact, there are more Salsa dance clubs in Europe and North America (especially the US) than all of Latin America combined. The rest of Latin America is pretty much the same. Most Latin Americans do not like to listen to or dance to salsa music. They prefer MERENGUE, CUMBIA, LATIN ROCK OR LATIN FOLK music over salsa anyday. And if they don't listen to the latter they usually listen to American pop music. If you were to play salsa music at a Latin American party, most of the Latinos (99.9%) would not know how to dance to it (100% would recognize the music). If they did dance, they would dance like as if they were dancing cumbia. And again the reason for this is that the majority of Latin Americans do not like salsa music or salsa dancing. This is one of the main reasons why salsa music and dancing will always be more popular outside of Latin America. -- Carlos October 5, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Vanessa said, "Ask a [sic] advanced New York or LA style dancer to do the Cuban son montuno step, they can't (never mind if they want). Son montuno makes up most salsa songs. Ask them to clap out the clave on salsa songs and they can't. Most of the dancers out there in the clubs are not dancing to the clave. They are either dancing too fast or too slow." I must say I HIGHLY disagree with your assessment of NY dancers. Now, Im not sure what exactly the son montuno step is, although I may just know the movement without knowing the name of what Im doing. As for the clave however, I challenge you to find an ADVANCED New York on2 dancer that cannot find the clave, whether 2-3 or 3-2. Go to an Eddie Torres class, and he plays his clave throughout the entire class, to make sure his students learn how to find it. The vast majority of New York on2 dancers, whether female or male will NEVER have a problem finding or clapping out the clave, because it is the whole basis of our style of dance. If you're listening to a song that tends to add or remove half-measures mid-song, or in other words, changes its beat in the middle of the song, most NY dancers will stop for a second and then get back on beat, because they recognize that the clave has changed. It is the NY dancer's deeply ingrained sense of the clave that allows him/her to remain on beat and dance in such close harmony with the rhythm of salsa. I dont know if you have ever been to NY for salsa, but if you ever do come, I urge you to go to a Jimmy Anton dance social on a Sunday and see the dancers there, and THEN make any assessments on NY dancing. -Ariel (from NYC) October 7, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Dear Chincub, Although the mambo had its origins in Cuba with Arsenio Rodriguez”, and Orestes Lopez, it was developed in Mexico by Perez Prado (Cuban). Perez Prado formed an orchestra with Mexican and Cuban musicians and recorded an album with the amazing Cuban singer Beny More for RCA Mexican label. The album became so popular in Mexico that it was release with RCA victor for international release, after that the mambo became popular in the US. Perez Prado made the mambo popular in Mexico and the US. He also directed the music for many Mexican films for three decades, and often performed himself with his orchestra on those films. I strongly suggest you to watch any of these films Especially the movie” al son del mambo”.where you are going to see amazing dancers like: “ resortes”, Ninon Sevilla, Meche Barba, Tin Tan, and Vitola. Other great mambo dancers were Katherine Dunham and Arthur Murray. Katherine hosted Perez Prado`s and other artists like Tito Puente, Mongo Santamaria and Boby Capo at her dance school in NY. I suggest you to watch her movie” mambo” of 1950 that features music of Perez Prado. For many people salsa and mambo are the same, but there is not point to argue that, what it is important is to mention the work of “the king of mambo”, because many people talk about mambo, but nobody mentions his work. In the other hand I live in Toronto and this is 2004, so I try to learn from the dancers here regardless of their background or style, I go to see local bands and I dance their tunes. I am amazed to see people from different backgrounds express their way to dance salsa. I am proud of the dancers, instructors and musicians here, and when they ask me in South America which style I like or dance, I do not say NY, LA, or Cuban I say: TORONTO STYLE BABY! Papacito October 13, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction - Carlos I see your point and I agree with you in some points. I never said salsa is in Latin peoples's blood. I agree that the popularity of salsa in Latin American has been exaggerated. But you said clearly right at the end. Most Latin people would know it was salsa (although they don't know how to dance to it or maybe they dislike it). Dancing it "cumbia" style to salsa is a valid way of dancing salsa. Cuban style us just a combination of New York style and "cumbia" style. Actually, if you actually dance real cumbia, you know it is danced differently. There might more purely salsa clubs in North American. But if you go to ANY night club in Colombia or Venezuela, they will put on at least one or two salsa songs. Most Canadians would not even know it was salsa. (I am not talking about the Canadians who regularly go to Latin clubs which make up a small precentage of people in Toronto.) Most salsa is in Spanish. And the language barrier will always be a barrier. -- Alex October 14, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction - on 2 comments In case anyone is still interested... I posted a query on Salserosweb to anyone who could briefly outline a history of dancing On2. Here's a response from a well respected salsa intellect: The term ON2 has two stages. Before and After Eddie Torres. Many people were dancing/breaking On the 2 back in the 40s, 50s & 60s prior to ET developing his own personal technique in the 70s and emerging in the 1980s as the principal instructor & model to obtain knowledge in how to go about dancing to this music. So with regards to a definitive ON2 approach or the technique that you and many others dancers today recognize as being ON2, then it would have to be the late 1970s. But again, the concept of breaking on 2 is nothing new and was taking place in places like Cuba and Puerto Rico during the Pre-Mambo era of the USA. It just wasn't known as ON2 or done in the same fashion. Dancing On 2 was also being taught in Dance Studios like Arthur Murray's in the 1950s. Although it was a more dated and more constrictingly stiff approach. (aka No "Sabor" Whatsoever.) 1930s-40s: Son Montuno, Guaracha, Rumba/Ñañigo 1950s-55: Mambo 1956-59: Cha-Cha-Cha 1960-63: Pachanga 1964-1968: Boogaloo, Shing-A-ling, Wobble-Cha, Ja-La Ja-La, etc. 1970-1978: Latin Hustle/Salsa 1980-Present: "ET 2"/Mambo On The 2 (Also On 1) 1986-Present: "LA Style" on 1 You are now seeing ET2 and LA style "1" cross-pollinate in different areas of the world, as well as an influential exchange between West Coast Dancers and East Coast Dancers. More and more West Coast dancers are learning to break on 2 and On2 dancers from the East are incorporating LA style patented flips, dips and moves, primarily, into their choreography. It's important to also note that throughout the timelines, specific individuals managed to innovate upon the styles and develop their own unique style that made them stand out from the rest. Two examples in recent times are the Vazquez Brothers style of Salsa dancing who have influenced many up and coming dancers in the West Coast and beyond and the Santo Rico Dance company who have completely revolutionized the turn pattern and converted it into an art-form unto itself... Richie October 14, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Dear Carlos, When you mentioned that salsa is not popular in Latin America, I hope that you did not include Mexico. Salsa, Mambo, Danzon, and Son are not just popular in Mexico but they are tradition and part of the Mexican culture. The Danzon and Son came to Mexico from Cuba in the 1800`s, since them they have become a tradition and they still alive. Salsa clubs? What about a Carnival that takes place in the city of Veracruz every year with millions of people attending from all over the Country and 50+ salsa schools performing and people dancing not in clubs but in all the streets of the city. Or an Afrocaribean festival that takes place every year for two weeks with salsa, Son, Cumbia bands from all over the world, or concerts like the one that took place last September in Mexico City hall with 120,000 people dancing the tunes of Gilberto Santa Rosa, Los Van Van, and Willie Colon. What happens is that salsa is related to the working class (the majority of the people in Mexico), and therefore is not played in the more popular clubs where tourists go. But still you can find places where they play just salsa like salon Baraimas or Café Mambo. I can provide you with a list of salsa clubs in Mexico, Mexican salsa, mambo, and Son bands. If people in Mexico dance salsa like cumbia is because they are not worried about how they dance, the style is very basic but with lots of rhythm heat, and they play and flirt while they dance. They don’t know about styles or putting down the heel or not. If funny because in Mexico we do not picture people in the USA dancing salsa, do you know what Miami, New York, and LA have in common? A huge Latin American population. In USA Latin Music has more diffusion world wide that is why you think that is more popular than in South America. For example the Son Jarocho has been played in Mexico forever and it is a tradition, but nobody knew about the song “la Bamba “until a guy in the States started to play it. I lived in Mexico for 24 years and I never heard Latin Rock, I know “Rock en Espanol” music. And is funny because the “Rock en Espanol “bands say that they mix Rock with salsa, rumba, cha cha cha, and mambo. Have you heard the music of Carlos Santana, Mana, or Maldita Vecindad? Papacito October 16, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Hi everyone, This topic is really interesting, I always look forward to everyones comments about ballroom vs salsa dancing. I dance both ballroom and salsa and have respect for the both... For the people making comments about ballroom dancing being stiff, and wrong, and whatever....have you actually taken a lesson from a balloom dancer, and I mean a really good ballroom dancer??? If you have ever had a lecture from a proffessional, you will realize that everything they teach you about the body and about dancing makes sense. The last thing you will ever learn is how to be a stiff dancer!!!! Ballroom dancers are not stiff, ballet dancers are not stiff!! Someone made a comment about ballet dancers usin the stifness in their arms to create momentum for spins!!! Have you been to a ballet class? I'm not sure who is teaching you but by ballet techer is constantly yelling "soft arms"!!! Hope that changes your opinion on that! Anyways, I am a ballroom dancer, but I actually started out dancing salsa first! I enjoy the both very much and have learned alot from both. As for improper teaching, everyone has their own taste in dancing and they take lessons where they feel comfortable with what they are learning. People who take dance lessons from me take them because like my style of dancing, not because I have said that my dancing is right and everyone elses is wrong! Some people like one way of dancing more than the other, no big deal, have fun, learn from one another. -- Anon October 19, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction - Answer to Olga and Anon I have taken professional ballroom classes and ballet classes. I took Ballroom classes with a top ten ranked ballroom dancer in Canada. One thing, it is impossible to dance on your toes ALL night (or even one entire song). You need to put down your heel at least once or you can risk serious injury. That's why ballet dancers and ballroom dancers have special shoes. Anyways, for salsa, dancing on your heels looks good for a few steps, but not all night. To tell you the truth, although I respect ballroom dancers, I did find ballroom dancing a little stiff and too technical, they take out the fun out of most dances. Ballet dancers have to put their arms up, maybe they don't generate momentum that way, but arms are up high in that position (an unnatural position) for balance. When do you have your arms in that position in normal daily life? Only dancing ballet. But this is Ballet and salsa is salsa. Salsa is a street and social dance. Maybe the problem is with the word "stiff". Ogla and Anon take the word to have negative conotations. Ballet dancers and Ballroom dancers spin harder than Latin American dancers. How do they get this energy? From the stiffness in their muscles. All dancing is the stiffening and relaxing your muscles. It is just Ballroom dancing stiffen their muscles more than Cuban dancers. For some great ballroom dancers it may look like "flowing energy" and effortless. It may seem effortless, but it takes a lot of energy and training to LOOK like this. For Latin people, more energy and effort and indeed "stiffness" is put into making your bodies especially hips and legs move. If Ballroom dancing is supposed to look effortless and natural, why do the strange gestures, exaggerated spins and facial expressions? Some dips and spins are made too look hard, far from looking effortless. -- Daniel October 26, 2004 -- Salsa Instruction There is a negative connotation to the topic of “Improper Salsa Instructions”. It is therefore not surprising to find readers expressing opinions about what is wrong with Salsa dance instructions. I would like to inject some of my positive experiences that I have had from my Salsa dance instructors. When
I took my first series of Salsa lessons, which was about five years
ago, I was very stiff. I could barely move my rib cage even one centimetre.
To me Salsa was a very stiff dance and the music was way too fast
and confusing. Crashing into other dancers on a very busy dance floor
was quite a routine experience. My dance teachers had nothing to do
with that. November 5, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction - Response to Alex I really don't understand how some people who participate in this forum have the courage to talk about things they don't know ANYTHING about. Take a look at this quote: "Cuban style is just a combination of New York style and "cumbia" style." Is this statement supposed to be an intended offense to Cubans or simply the result of this person's wrong observations/conclusions from watching Cubans dance??? Whatever it is, you all should know that the statement is absolutely WRONG. Cuban style (Casino) does not owe a single thing to neither cumbia nor New York style. Cuban style evolved primarily from Son. There has been no connection whatsoever with cumbia there. The Cuban style (Casino) had already matured in the 60's, and Rueda de Casino was already popular, so how could it have possibly taken anything from the style created by Eddie Torres later on??? Cuban style does have the influence of some American dances like swing or rock&roll (I can't recall which of the two, or if it was the two), but that happened a long long time ago. Most Cubans have no frigging clue about what LA and NY salsa styles are; that's how disconnected they are from them. If you want to know about Cuban dance, just ask us, but don't go around making up things because what you'll do is to add more to the confusion that already exists around anything that says Cuba. -- Anon November 5, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction - Response to Carlos Carlos, this statement you made: "In Cuba, HIP-HOP is one of the most popular forms of music. More Cubans dance to HIP-HOP than salsa." ..is completely wrong!!! Hip hop is popular among segments of the youth, but is FAR from being as popular as, for example, timba and reggaeton are. Hip hop is popular in Havana, where they even have rap festivals, but in the rest of Cuba the picture is quite different. Hip hop will have a hard time conquering the Cuban youth because: 1) that rhythm is not as appealing to Cubans because it doesn't feel afro-caribbean enough 2) Cuba itself has experienced a music revolution since the 1990's (the emergence of timba. a.k.a. Cuban salsa) that makes it difficult for trends from the outside to become massively popular. 3) the language barrier 4) if you go to those hip hop shows in Cuba, you'll notice that the audience is fairly passive, as compared to a salsa concert or a reggaeton beat, where you see people displaying all their eroticism, attitude, and reaching a dancing climax. In conclusion, if you're Cuban you are way much more likely to like salsa than hip hop. If we were lucky enough as to have statistic reports showing how many Cubans prefer salsa over hip hop, the results favoring salsa would be totally overwhelming. -- Anon November 11, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction I went to Babalus last Wednesday. I wore black jeans. I didn't hit anyone or step on anybody, but others did have the same courtesy. This is the absolute truth. When I got home that night, I had five footprints on my black jeans on the back of my legs. I know some people are learning and mistakes happen. But is not beginners that are ste ppingandhittingyou.Itispeoplewhothinktheyare advanced who are hitting people. You can't dance in a nightclub the way you dance in your salsa class. If there are more people in the nightclub, you should change the way you dance. Or should people be just expected to make room for you, because you took some lessons? What a selfish attitude !! When they move away the chairs so they have more space, the space is for all the dancers. Don't hog up all the space, making it impossible for others to dance. Contrary to what you may believe, not everybody is gasping in awe of your moves. Salsa teachers always say to look at your partner when you are dancing, how about looking around you so that you don't hit people? When you dance, of course, you need space to dance in and other dancers should respect that. But do you need half of the dance floor and you always keep on changing where you dance, so we can't escape your elbows and high heels. -- Kathe November 11, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction or Styling Tips Here are some bad styling techniques. 1) Men don't lift up one of your legs up when you are turning the girl. It doesn't look good. Also, it really doesn't help you to do the basic step to the clave and that's where most people who do this lifting of the foot have trouble. People who dance like this have trouble dancing variations on the basic step. If you can do the basic step when you spin the girl, maybe you can do this lifting of the foot as styling or "shine" is okay once in a while but it doesn't look good when you do it all the time. 2) Putting this one hand on your chest while spinning the girl. As variation of this, is tilting your head to the side while you are spinning the girl. Maybe it looked cool when only one guy did it. It looks so fake, because you can see you have been taught to do it. And it lacks originally. Make up your own styling. 3) Doing the basic mambo step just by holding your partner hands and swishing your hands back and forth like windshield whipers. Latin people do the mambo step and cross body leads doing what they call here a Latin hold (partners close together, man arm on her back, woman's left arm rests on his arm, the other arms up, etc). My question is if this is the Latin hold, then what should you call the mambo step with just holding hands? The Non Latin hold? The ballroom hold? When couples dance this mambo step when they just hold hands, they tend to take up more room, make bigger steps, hit people etc. I can't tell you how many times, I have been hit when people dance like this and they go overboard with the swishing of the arms. Let's outlaw it. In salsa dancing, the arms don't have to move so much, but your body and hips should. 4) You can spin well. Great. It doesn't mean you know how to spin in salsa. I know you took ballet, or modern or jazz dancing for many years and you can spin literally on a dime. Spins are relaxed in salsa, because they have to follow the rhythm of the music, the clave. People are spinning too fast. Well, that's their choice. But unfortunately they teach this way to spin to people who haven't taken ballet for 8 years, to many people who can't control their bodies and they are hitting me on the dance floor. 5) Guys who stop dancing and hold their girls hands tightly and they expect the girls to swivel or something. When does the music tell you to do this? Then the girls have the option to put legs through the guys legs. Unfortunately, she can't see behind the guy, so almost always trips or steps on the couple behind the guy. 5) Let's outlaw dips all together. Dips are okay for shows or when the dancefloor is relatively empty. They are dangerous for crowded nightclubs especially with a reckless leader. 6) Women who lead other women in Toronto. I am sorry most women can't lead. Mostly because they haven't had much practice. This includes most salsa professionals. I saw one female member of salsa team member dancing with another salsa female member. They were hitting just about everyone in the nightclub. It is okay for when you are just fooling around and there is a lot of space, but in crowded nightclub? It would have been okay, if they are dancing more Latin, but they were doing LA style hard spins and flips. Then again I saw a Cuban woman leading another Cuban woman once and it was amazing. Then again she probably has been leading at avery high level for most of her life. Female salsa teachers in Toronto although they'll probably say have been dancing salsa most of their lives, they have very little experience leading (at least at a high level, and not just with their sister at home). 6) People who dress up according to American movie stereotypes of how Latin Americans dance salsa. I have salsa danced in most Latin countries. I have yet to see a Latin woman dress up in high heels and short skirt or wear glittery clothes to most salsa night clubs. Nor have seen I a man wear a glittery shirt or tight muscle shirts to a salsa night clubs (professional performers excluded). I have never seen a Latin American person wear Ballroom or any other kind of special shoes for dancing to salsa nightclub. The other salsa website in Toronto, regularlly complains people in Toronto don't dress up to go to Latin clubs like Latin American people do. I have a feeling she just wants to live out her Solid Gold, Dirty Dancing fantasies. People have it right. You should wear jeans to a salsa nightclub. -- Hortencia November 13, 2004 -- To Richard in Improper Instruction It should be the instructor's fault, if they teach that the basic step should always be done in only one way (large and swinging arms). They are teaching dancing salsa SOCIALLY. They teach how do a basic or spins when the dance floor is crowded. They should teach students to watch out for other couples. And that it sometimes better not to do a spin or dip if it is going to maime or injure someone. I have never heard of a salsa teacher who teaches students to dance to the different parts of a salsa song. If you know of such an excellent teacher, please mention him or her. Because all I see on the dancefloor are people tripping spinning and dipping in introductory romantic parts in some salsa songs. Richard, sure everybody should be a child when it comes to learning dancing. But it seems a shame that your childlike curiousity only extends to Latin dancing that has been Europeanized or Anglo-Saxonized. Somehow, I can't see you taking West African dances or Afro-Cuban dancing (which has had an equal if not greater influence in modern salsa dancing than ballroom dancing). In Cuba, it is not about how many hard spins, tricks and dips (which they are certainly a lot of in Cuba also), the best dancers are the ones who can dance TO the music. I do not want to get into the debate of what is real or authentic salsa dancing. I didn't start that debate. For me, the best salsa dancing is Casino, because expresses most fully the music. What's wrong with saying that? Actually, what turns me off is a salsa teacher who says he/she dances all styles of salsa. Or they say they take the best of each salsa style and mould into their own fantastic unique personal style. I have seen only one teacher here who dances authentic Cuban style salsa dancing (Note Richard, I didn't say authentic salsa dancing). I don't think most of these instructors have even ever seen it. I think it is important respect all styles of salsa dancing. But I like a salsa teacher who has a point of view or opinion. A person who has strong opinion based on knowledge, training and study, not a person who puts down others for spite or revenge. If you meet a person who has no opinion and thinks everything is wonderful and great because he/ she doesn't want to offend anyone, this is very boring. Political correctness and empty platitudes about how everything is great and equal won't get salsa dancing anywhere. -- Vanessa November 14, 2004 -- Salsa Instruction Dance is an art. The essence of all art is to have pleasure in giving pleasure. I do not understand what the rancour is about. If you are not receiving pleasure, then do not do it. Also, you see, you can dance the way you want to and I’ll dance the way I like. If physical space is a limitation, a crowded floor in a night-club is not the only place available for us to dance. I am childlike in dance, I dance first and think later. It's the natural order. On the other hand, if I choose to dance in a crowded setting, I am an adult, I cannot hate, and I cannot separate myself from life and blame instructors for me bumping into other dancers. Dance is music made visible. If instructors do not make an attempt at fusing your eyes, ears, mind and body together, then perhaps you should look for a new one. But dance is also art, it is controversial, as controversial as dancing to silence. Is silence music? So I think, let’s enjoy the process of learning to dance. Let dance be the first and last word in life, let not debates or arguments consume our last breath in the politics of dance. Who was it that said this? "Dance like no one is watching..." I do not try to dance better than anyone else, I only try to dance better than myself. I have to go to dance, bye! Richard November 15, 2004 -- Vanessa's comments Actually, what turns me off is a salsa teacher who says he/she dances all styles of salsa. Or they say they take the best of each salsa style and mould into their own fantastic unique personal style. Perhaps you have forgotten that Salsa itself is a dance that is a combination of various things - who is to be the judged as to how it is evolves? Cubans, Puerto Ricans? What is so about if someone is genuinely learning the best of various things? Would you rather they choose the bad parts of the dance? I have seen only one teacher here who dances authentic Cuban style salsa dancing (Note Richard, I didn't say authentic salsa dancing). I don't think most of these instructors have even ever seen it. You need to go out more. Even in Cuba, people have similar yet different styles. And how do you know that most instructors have never seen "authentic Cuban style Salsa dancing." There's a word now called "travelling." -- Marc November 15, 2004 -- To Anon in improper salsa dancing I take it, Anon, you are not the ballroom Anon who wrote in earlier in this debate. I wrote that Casino or Cuban style salsa dancing is a combination of "cumbia" and New York salsa. I still stand by this statement. I meant to say it can be seen as a combination of these two styles. But I have NEVER said Cuban style salsa dancing or Casino comes from or derives from cumbia or New York. It is probably the other way around, anyways. I was trying to describe Cuban style salsa dancing or Casino to people who have never seen it, which would be the majority of salseros in Toronto. When I use the term "cumbia", it means the old Toronto style salsa dancing. This is left foot kick or tap, step back, change weight (ball change for you ballroomers there), bring back left foot to original spot, same thing fot the right foot, right kick or tap, right back change weight, bring back right foot back to original place. Ask any Colombian, they will tell you this is not the way real cumbia is danced -- the real cumbia dance and music being more African unfluenced. "Cumbia" style was not a term invented by myself, but I use it to be better understood by Toronto salseros. It is a term that is mistaken so that why I used "" quotation marks. Colombian cumbia became popular in Mexico, Central and South America, but they changed it by slowing it down and mixing in other music native to their own countries. Most Mexicans, Central Americans and South Americans dance salsa this way, perhaps because they did not know any other way. So, when they came here to Toronto they coined the term "cumbia style". This "cumbia" style is actually a PART of Cuban style salsa. The cumbia type spins (man and women spin to their left, after stepping back) are part of Casino and Cuban salsa dancing. Think of Enchufla spins in Casino Rueda. Cuba is where these spins came from. That's why, many misinformed Toronto salseros orginally thought Cuban style was actually "cumbia" or old Toronto style salsa. The "cumbia" step was actually just a variation on the son montuno step. However, it shouldn't be taught as the basic because it doesn't teach to dance and pound out the clave with your feet like the son montuno step. New York style and LA style salsa dancing comes from Cuban dancing. Who taught all those people how to dance to "mambo", cha cha cha and son in New York? It was Cubans, because mambo, cha cha cha and son is Cuban music. There are some old Cuban people who dance very similarly to New York style, but they never been to New York. The Cubans danced that way in New York because they dressed up to go salsa dancing. You would dance every differently if you wear a tuxedo too. -- Alex November 15, 2004 -- Salsa Instructions Vanessa The above seems to be a hypothetical argument, so a response is not need. The operative words were “should”, “if” and “always”. Vanessa Teaching is usually done in a studio and not on a crowded dance floor environment. I was taught the basic step and spins in a studio. I was also taught choreography that should not be tried on a crowded dance floor. This is really not unique to Salsa, you know. We do also bumped into other dancers on a ballroom dance floor, and when we do, or when some one else inadvertently does that, we just smile, say sorry and carry on with life. It is part of good dance etiquette to share the dance floor. It is absolutely essential to share the road when we drive; not doing so could be fatal. Therefore, dance as if we are driving on the road. Vanessa Well I agree, however, I have not come across any instructors teaching students to do a spin or dip to intentionally or unintentionally maim or injure some one. Vanessa I do feel sorry for you dancing in such environments. If all you see are people tripping spinning and dipping in introductory romantic parts of some salsa songs, its time to kiss that club goodbye. I do know of at least two Toronto instructors that held special classes and sessions on musicality and on understanding the components of Salsa music. I do not wish to mention their names here in this public forum as it is off topic. Vanessa I did spend half of my time on Casino Rueda. It is not genuine, not authentic, right? Well I enjoyed those classes and I did expand on my Salsa knowledge. I do also appreciate Europeanized or Anglo-Saxonized International Ballroom. If that is how you choose to describe International Ballroom dances. Having seen some of the top International Ballroom Dancers dance, and teach, I can say this, be a little more objective and open minded. Give it a try, you are not going to catch a disease, you know. Vanessa Isn’t Salsa a non-Cuban term? If it is, there is a contradiction in the phrase “authentic Cuban style salsa”, isn’t there? Are we back to the “What is authentic debate?” How long is a piece of string? And yes, long live Cuba! And I love Cuban music and Cuban dancing, Eh! Richard November 18, 2004 -- Improper salsa instruction It seems like Hortencia has joined chincub`s campaign to legitimate Cuban dancing, And against those evil LA dancers who hit people at the dance clubs. But this time it is not putting down the heel that looks bad, and makes people bump each other on the night clubs, now is lifting one leg, the hand on the chest thing, and the swinging mambo arms. And this time she goes further and attacks everything from female dance leaders, to tight muscle shirts, fancy dance shoes, high heels, and everything that is not like” in Latin America”. Don’t you think that because it is a different country, things may change a little? , and other factors have something to do, like different clothes stores, of for the fact that people in Canada can afford to buy those kind of clothes? , and if the guy has muscles to show, let him wear it! One thing I don’t get, how people dance this dangerous acrobatic LA style on the LA clubs, without leaving the club like Rocky Balboa after a fight?, because some people say that there are more salsa clubs in LA than in Latin America. Maybe Hortencia, chincub, and company should make a protest destroying videos of Josie Neglia outside the Mayan Club. Papacito November 18, 2004 -- response to Marc, Papacito, and Richard Papacito, Don't I have the right to criticize something that doesn't look good? People have the right to dance whatever way they want. But also I have the right to say that certain kinds of styling doesn't look good to me. We have freedom of speech. For example, you have the right to express your racist and neo-colonialist statement "maybe in Canada people can afford to buy those shoes." The implication being, Latin American people can't afford to buy those types of ballroom or fancy shoes. Maybe I wouldn't be so harsh if these styling techniques weren't obviously taught by a teacher, because they all dance and style the same. Almost all Toronto salseros dance the same. I mean if there was only one guy putting his hand on his chest, or putting one leg up while he spun a girl, etc., it might be actually kind of cool. It would show his own individuality and he would be expressing himself with he music. Sure, it is great when some things change when they come to another country. If some Canadian culture could express itself in its salsa dancing, that would be great. Too bad the changes relfect a cheesy outdated stereotypes of Latin American dancing and solid gold Ballroom dancing dreams. Latin Ballroom dancing comes from England, not Canada. I love it when people dance salsa with normal Canadian jeans or clothing. Or are you telling me Canadians normally sequin gowns, high heeled ballroom shoes, glittery open chest shirts? Sure you have the right to wear these clothes. But I also have the right to say it looks so cheesy. Richard, Actually, some people suggest the "word" salsa was first used in a Cuban song. So, sctually, the word could have Cuban origins. Nobody knows for sure when the word was first used. Anyways, even as any New York salsero will tell you salsa is not a type of music or dance, it is a concept (because the music is basically Afro-Cuban music. But I am sure you don't want to and are not able to debate the origins of salsa music). Spending all the time in class doing a particular salsa choreography and telling them not to do it in a nightclub, is like telling a child not to take out and eat cookies from a cookie jar. They will and have done it. Richard, go to any salsa club in Toronto and you can see it with your own eyes and they do it in the slow romantic introductions of a salsa song. The thing is Richard it is nice when people say they are sorry if they bump into you, but they do not even know they step on and bump into other people. They are unconscious of where their bodies are and where their arms are flying. So, how can they say sorry? Richard, You have a good point all dance needs to innovate and improve and blend, etc. This is true for all dancing. Casino dancing or Cuban style salsa dancing in Cuba changed a lot in from the 1970's too. Perhaps New York dancing is a combination and blend of these other sytles. But these true innovators are people who know the old styles very well. How can you look forward if you don't know the past? The people who say they fuse the best of Cuban style in their dancing don't know anything about Cuban style. It is like a band who say they fuse salsa and rock and roll, but they can't play either music very well separately. Last point, most salsa teachers or salsa DJs who visit Cuba only stay at the beach or go to tourist friendly salsa nightclubs. They never see the real stuff. Americans, who dominate the Latin American music and dance industry in North America, for the most part, are unable to go to Cuba. -- Vanessa November 19, 2004 -- Response to Hortencia Hortencia, When I read your awful salsa styling tips. I nearly fell off my chair with laughter. I recognized all of them in salsa nightclubs. I have also added my own terrible salsa stylings. 1) When the man flips up the hand of the woman with his hand like he is making a pizza and he catches it again as it drops from the air. The is especially done when the man turns his back to woman keeping his arm behind his back and then toss the woman's hand up like fighting light sabers. Cheesy. 2) Guys wearing sports wrist bands to wipe off the sweat off their brow in night clubs. Are you are Kobe Bryant? I like informal dress codes, but this is getting ridiculous. 3) Salsa professional who use salsa nicknames and then use it when talking about themselves instead of the personal pronoun "I". For example, I name myself "salsapapacito" and when I talk to others I use it. For example, instead of "I am hungry", I say, "salsapapacito is hungry". 4) When they make guys pull their legs in together and out like an accordion, but of course quicker. Can you dance the "charleston" ? Which is usually accompanied by : 5) Dancing with your hands up like the paws of a dog begging for food with your pinkies to the side. The hands go side to side. 6) White leather high heeled "ballroom" or "dancing" shoes. They were good when they were black because we couldn't see them in the dark. 7) Heterosexual men dancing with other heterosexual men. I am saying this a fabulous gay latino man. Most men can't be lead by other men (in salsa, hehehe) because they don't know how to be. The only times men dance with other men is when they want to fool around and make people laugh. It makes other people laugh revealing the peoples' homophobic prejudices. When heterosexual men dance with dance with other heterosexual men, it is just joking around. When homosexual men dance other homosexual men in public especially in Latin dance clubs, it is an act of bravery. Let me just say that this website never prompts gay Latin dance nightclubs like El Convento Rico even though people have been salsa dancing in these places for years. 8) As an Afro-Latin man, I also feel disappointed to see many fine African Canadians and African Americans dancing what is really an Anglo-Saxonized version of salsa dancing here. Salsa is African music, don't dance it like Lawrence Welk. The Africaness in salsa dance and music comes from through Cuba. African Canadians really need to discover the African roots of salsa music and dance. All the other fabulous African Canadian women who can't seem to get anyone to dance with them here should go to Cuba. Don't take the blackness out of salsa, people. 9) Women who point in the air with their arms fully extended. Ow, my eye. 10) Canadian women who think if a guy looks "Latin" (usually a stereotype of what a Latin guy looks like) that they can dance salsa. I have news for fabulous babes, most of Latin guys here learned to dance like that in Canada. They seem to think guys who look black or really white are not Latin. 11) People who think if they are not spinning, they are not really dancing. 12) Guys who hold on to their partners hands tightly, tighten up their bodies in a long pause. -- Don't Chase my Papi November 24, 2004 -- Salsa Instruction It is truly unfortunate when dance discussions degenerate into efforts at suppression of ideas, styles and culture. Dancing should be about enjoyment and enlightenment. I do not sense an air of optimism nor do I feel any sense of cheer in continuing this discussion. This divisiveness, should it be representative of the Salsa culture, it is doomed! I am an immigrant here in Canada. To me, what is great about Canada, and our land is its ability to accept diversity and thrive on it. This part of the continent, has no borders, when it comes to art, music and dance. Cheers! Richard November 25, 2004 -- Nov 18 response to Marc, Papacito, and Richard Maybe I wouldn't be so harsh if these styling techniques weren't obviously taught by a teacher, because they all dance and style the same. Almost all Toronto salseros dance the same. I mean if there was only one guy putting his hand on his chest, or putting one leg up while he spun a girl, etc., it might be actually kind of cool. It would show his own individuality and he would be expressing himself with he music. This statement is such a bad assumption. You can make the same argument with Cuban or other dancers. You have bad coins on both sides of the fence. This is not a dancing issue, but a human one. All Toronto salseros dance the same, so all the Cubans dance the same, right? Are you suggesting "superiority" here? I.E., everyone in Toronto is mechanized, not musical, etc., etc., while everyone in Cuba is feeling the music like everyone in Japan who is raised there is proficient in Karate? Take a closer look that even though many Toronto salseros have similar styles, they are also highly individualistic, and they should be allowed to grow at their own time as dancers. It's one thing to like or not like it, but it's one thing to judge them as all the same sheep. I am sure you will not appreciate if someone just automatically assumes that all Cuban men lead like they are going to rip your arms off - is that fair, you think? This problem, itself, is not just with Cubans, but withe everyone...race is not an issue. Richard, You have a good point all dance needs to innovate and improve and blend, etc. This is true for all dancing. Casino dancing or Cuban style salsa dancing in Cuba changed a lot in from the 1970's too. Perhaps New York dancing is a combination and blend of these other sytles. But these true innovators are people who know the old styles very well. I'm glad you at least acknowledge this. But again, there is a lot of assumption that Toronto instructors are not educated (or learning) about these things. You may be surprised that most open minded dancers in Toronto are the instructors themselves (not all, but many are). How can you look forward if you don't know the past? The people who say they fuse the best of Cuban style in their dancing don't know anything about Cuban style. I agree, you have to know the past--really well--not just a course or a workshop here. Many instructors, I believe, are taking Afro-Cuban lessons in Toronto, and perhaps they should try the partner work element. Most of them acknowledge that it takes years to master them, and those who say they do, I agree, are fooling themselves. It is like a band who say they fuse salsa and rock and roll, but they can't play either music very well separately. Last point, most salsa teachers or salsa DJs who visit Cuba only stay at the beach or go to tourist friendly salsa nightclubs. They never see the real stuff. Americans, who dominate the Latin American music and dance industry in North America, for the most part, are unable to go to Cuba. -- Vanessa November 26, 2004 -- Improper Salsa Instruction Dear Vanessa, or Hortencia ? Of course you have the right to express your opinion, what I do not know is if your opinion has weight, if is appropriate, or smart, because I do not know your dance background or your accomplishments in salsa dancing and fashion. But why don’t we criticize the way YOU dance and dress, I think that that would be impossible because you spend too much time sitting on the clubs criticizing with so much detail (do you bring a pen and paper and write down how other people dance?). You see, when Latin people go to the clubs, are all about drink, having fun, and dance the way you can, we do not put to much attention how other people dance, because we do not care, and is hard with a few coronas in your body. We leave the gossip for the old ladies. Regarding the clothes, you see, in Toronto there are more styles to choose from, and the prices are more affordable than in Latin America, because people buy more clothes for the change of seasons, in Latin America people do not buy much clothes because you can wear your clothes all year round. Ask anybody from Latin America and they will tell you that they love to shop clothes and shoes in Toronto. And I think that is a great thing that people dress sexy, can you imagine all the people in the club looking like cowboys, that would be awful! .Let me tell you that even in Latin America, in some salsa clubs they won’t let you in if you wear jeans, because the managers think that people who dress up have more money to spend on drinks and tips. I guess that you are not big fan of the movie “dance with me” with Chayanne, let me tell you that Chayanne is more popular in Latin America than any other salsa, pop, or rock artist, if you do not believe me, turn to the channel 35 and see. P.S. Do Cuban people a great favor and do not speak for them. One thing is give your opinion, and other is to mislead readers about Latin culture. Papacito December 8, 2004 - Papacito My Cuban wife says Hortencia and Vanessa can speak for them whenever they want. She says that most Cubans think salsa is basically Cuban music. But she says it is great the many places like Puerto Rico and New York came along and changed. She respects all styles of dancing of salsa, but people do not know the real Cuban dancing here. She is the most non-politcal person I know. In Colombia, at least in Bogota if you want to have a nightclub that makes a lot of money and attract people with a lot of money, you DO NOT make it a salsa nightclub. Sure, you can play a few salsa songs, but they won't play salsa all night like at Babalu's. It will scare away the clientele. What is wrong with salsa dancing wearing jeans or cowboy hats or boots ? Who is being closed minded here? I love dancing Mexican cumbia and salsa in a big cowboy hat and jeans in San Antonio, Texas. Keep the street in salsa. The reason why Latin people buy clothes here is because of the famous brand names, not the quality or variety of clothes. These Latin people want to bring these clothes back to Latin America and show off their Gucci, Hilfiger, Versace, etc, to other people. -- Daniel December 9, 2004 - Salsa Instruction To the girl who critcized me. I still believe most people dance here the same. It is not only something I believe, but many people on this website and in real life have said this. Actually, most Latin Americans think this way. In Cuba or Latin America, many people dance salsa or have seen salsa dancing. They have watched many different styles of salsa growing up with the music and dancing. In Toronto, most people don't dance salsa. In fact, most Torontonians probably have never even salsa dancing or can't recognize the music. Most Canadian salseros before getting into salsa, never seen salsa dancing or even heard it. If there is no salsa dancing in music in popular television or movies on a regular basis in North America. The salsa market isn't so big. There are a handful of salsa teachers in Toronto. So, naturally people think salsa is danced only in they way they teach. In contrast, in many parts of Latin America, they will put some salsa during party and people will dance they way they can. And they just fool around and improvise. They don't take classes or anything. And this has been going on for decades. In which place, do you think will have more variation? In Cuba, because it is not so wired and connected in terms of television and mass media, regional differences still remain. In Cuba, many people dance differently, but probably they arm twist more on the whole than Canadian saleros. In Canada, they do the same choreography, the same shines, the same spins, the exact arms and hand gestures. I have seen people dance salsa and then asked where they learned to dance. I got the dance school or dance instructor right 90% of the time. -- Vanessa December 14, 2004 - Response to Vanessa * same old argument: Cubans and Latinos are the best and everyone else looks the same..... the funny part is that if every started dancing Cuban or "Latino" style Salsa there will be probably be a debate as what authentic style of Salsa is" bump... Rosemarie December 15, 2004 - Improper Salsa Instruction Dear Daniel, Regarding your wife, well good for her. I do not think that most Cubans would think that salsa is basically Puerto Rican music, it would make more sense to mention an event, a musician, date, place etc. It would also make more sense to explain why people here are ought to know the “real Cuban dancing “and not the “real Puerto Rican” or the” real Colombian” dancing, since there are amazing bands and dancers from all over the world like: Gilberto Santa Rosa, Ruben Blades, Orquesta de La Luz, Lobo y Melon, Oscar de Leon etc. If you love dancing with jeans, cowboy hats and boots, good for you. It is because the American movies of Clint Eastwood? No, is because this is your style, and you feel comfortable wearing them. I have seen people dancing salsa wearing suits, running shoes and Heavy Metal shirts, jeans, and sexy outfits. I will never say that any one of them look cheese, because I am not Joanne Rivers. Where I am going is that all styles of dressing and dancing salsa are valid, because there is no rule or code defining what kind of moves are allowed in salsa, or which is the appropriate attire to dance salsa. If you know one, please let me know. Papacito January 10, 2005 - Improper Salsa Instruction to Papacito All the admitedly great salsa bands you mentioned (although you go out of your way to mention the only salsa band famous in Japan rather than any one of the numerous famous bands from Cuba) get dancers from Toronto to dance at their shows. And the people who dance at these shows to have to dance differently than in a night club. It is more of a show salsa, like there is show Tango. You said, "Can you imagine all the people in the club wearing cowboy hats, that would be awful !" But in your second message, you say that would never call this cheesy. "Awful" and "cheesy" pretty much sound negative to me. To take the moral high ground because you use the word "awful" instead of "cheesy" seems pretty strange to me. You are criticizing people for their salsa styles too. You have become what you have tried to condemn. You say all styles of dressing and dancing are valid. Saying that they are awful does not make them invalid, but saying they are cheesy tries to make them invalid? I am confused. When you used "awful" in your cowbody remark, isn't the same thing people in this forum were doing? They were giving their opinion about what salsa dance moves or clothes look awful to them. Or does you total freedom in salsa not apply to them? There is one rule is salsa. Dance to the music. You have to follow the clave, if not, it can be called in line dancing, kabuki, or polka. If you do dance without any rules, I would love to see that. I am sure when you start dancing you out one foot forward or one foot back. Isn't that a rule? It would be great if people had enough creativity and freedom to create their own moves and clothes. But is wearing Matrix outfits from the movie creative and an expression of your artistic side? And doing the same moves that everybody is taught in Toronto is showing total freedom? Is the disrespect for more Latin America dancing (Cuban, Colombian) in Toronto a sign of your tolerance and acceptance of validity of every dance style? -- Daniel January 17, 2005 - Improper Salsa Instruction to Daniel Dear Daniel, Did I say “here is a list of great salsa bands”? and I forgot to mention Cuban bands? No. what I meant was that there is a salsa sub-culture in different parts of the world, besides Cuba, each one with their unique style, and in some places is nothing new(New York, Puerto Rico, LA, Panama, Mexico) and all deserve recognition, not just Cuban bands. Regarding the cowboy attire I said “all” people in the club, because according to Vanessa people in Toronto should follow the “Latin American “style. The same way that would be awful to see “all” the people wearing muscle shirts (without muscles) because is the correct way to dress for salsa. You said that “there one rule in Salsa. Dance to the music. You have to follow the clave”, holly smoke! can you imagine if all that knowledge end up in terrorist hands?. Dancing to the music is the rule for most of the dances. The question would be if there is a rule when you are already dancing salsa, meaning if you learned the LA, NY, Puerto Rican, or Toronto style, or if is just the Cuban style valid. But I believe that I know the answer because your wife is Cuban. Regarding the matrix outfits, let me tell you that I am not a big fan of those kind outfits either, or the choreographies, I prefer the street salsa. But I can appreciate someone who spend some time to become a better dancer, and someone with abilities and skills that not even in your wildest dreams. Regarding “the same moves that everybody is taught in Toronto,” perhaps it would make more sense to mention what moves, and what dance school teaches those moves. And why are those moves invalid. And please don’t tell me because the moves are not Casino moves, and the only moves that people in Toronto are allowed to learn are Casino moves, because the mambo was invented in Cuba,and because your wife says that salsa is Cuban music. P.S. Don’t worry nobody is “stealing your thunder” Papacito January 24, 2005 - Improper Salsa Instruction response to Daniel I have to say that Daniel hit it on the dot when he said (There is one rule is salsa. Dance to the music. You have to follow the clave) You know people are always saying that Ballroom is stiff!!!!, Cuban dancers are better or worse!!!! Let me make a few comments 1) Ballroom people are stiff. If you say that then you know nothing about ballroom dancing or ever taken a ballroom class. I think that they have a lot more Movement (technique as it was mentioned correctly, than any salsa dancer on the street) Now all the good performers and teachers salsa Performers at one point in time they have taken some kinnd of Dance lesson (ballet, jaz, Learning Cuban Movents, BAllroom dancing even martial arts can teach you about movement) Ballroom dancers move every part of their body simultaneously throughout their routines that is hard to do. Cuban Dancing I do not know what you have seen In Cuba or here There are 2 types of Cuban dancers the street dancer and the trained dancer. The trained dancer Studies many years in classical dancing and Ballet, Jazz, modern and other Cuban Dances Witch they learn how to move their body. The street dancer has still awesome rhythm but the movement is choppy and does look stiff but it looks this way because they are actually going to the rhythm of the music (THE CLAVE). I think all dances are meant to be different and danced differently as well as cultures there is no better or worse, If you are Cuban you cannot ever be the same as a Porto Rican and vice versa, Also North Americans cannot ever be the same as a Cuban Because it is in the blood. So as much as we want to copy or criticize there is a lot in the roots you cannot copy. GATTO February 5, 2005 - Improper Salsa Instruction response to Papacito My points 1) I don't think it is nationalist to say you prefer the salsa dancing from your own country, especially if the country has had a major role in the development of the music and dance. My wife, who is Cuban, doesn't like many things about Cuba, but she prefers Cuban salsa dancing to North American salsa dancing. Is that being nationalistic? 2) I don't think we are allowed to criticize any specific salsa teachers here. I don't think TOsalsa wants to badmouth any particular salsa teacher in a public forum like this. The managers of this website would take out any specific names. I think that is a good move on their part. 3) Chincub's point was that Mambo was invented by a Cuban. All the people you mentioned are Cuba. You proved his point. 4) Why would any Brazilian who knows about the history of soccer hit slap you in the forehead if you told him that soccer is from England? Should we forget about history, because it makes people uncomfortable? Brazil has won more world cups more than any other European country. No idiot would say European soccer is better than Brazilian soccer, because the proof is on the results of the matches. Dancing is not a sport (although many want to make it into one). Even when the Beatles started out or Brazilian soccer started out 100 years ago, they studied the old masters. The Beatles studied American roll and rock, Brazilian studied European soccer, the Russians studied Canadian hockey. They knew what happened before, studied it, changed it and made it their own, and instutionalized it and it become popular. Can we say the same thing about salsa dancing in North America? I think not. Is there any salsa group, salsa singers, or salsa dancers in North America approaching the popularity of Michael Jordan or Pele? Do Toronto salseros even know Latin America salsa dancing looks like when they spell Colombia with a "u" and say there are not taps or cross body leads in Cuban dancing? Ask some Toronto salsa dancers what they think about Latin American salsa dancing, and you can hear the misinformation, and stereotypes coming out, or you will hear nothing because they simply don't know. Furthermore (a point Manuel made in Latin vs. Non Latin), soccer in Brazil, basketball in the USA, rock and roll in England, are very popular in their societies, and they have made it a part of their own culture. Are you saying this about salsa in Toronto or even salsa in North America? -- Daniel March 28 , 2005 - Improper Salsa Instruction My answers: 1. I don’t recall calling your wife nationalist. 2. Are you scared? 3. What a brilliant point! And that conclusion leads you to what? The only comment you can make to this is that you and chin-cub know nothing about the mambo culture, since the mambo was invented and developed in Mexico. I think that addressed this issue before, and your dear friend chin-cub did not respond, because he probably did his research, I recommend you to do the same before making an argument. Regarding the second part, I think that you were under the influence of serious drugs my friend, “the old masters”? Like kung- fu? Salsa or mambo singers and dancers in USA? To many to mention. Have you heard of Katherine Dunham, Tito Puente, Perry Como, or Jane Russell? Papacito Dear
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