TOsalsa Discussion Forum: Latin Dancers

The Feedback....

November 27, 2003 -- RE: NY Dancers, November 21st.

I would just like to totally agree with the girl who posted the article on new salsa dancers versus native salsa dancers. I myself am not of latin descent...I am of caribean descent (Trinidadian to be precise ;). I myself am a salsa convert, I have been enjoying now for about three or four years. And I have to agree with her 100%. I go to many Salsa clubs in toronto (i.e. Plaza Flamingo, Courthouse, Berlin, etc) and I have also been to salsa clubs in Havana, Varadero, Trinidad(the one in Cuba). And there is such a difference between the way native Latin people dance to salsa, versus the way non-latin people dance to salsa. When i see latin people dancing to salsa, it is not just about the technical movements and the steps, but it also about the feeling and the passion, that comes through when they dance. To me there is nothing better than watching cuban people dance because not only do they have the moves mastered, but they are truely enjoying themselves. They dance from the heart. When i see people who are non-latin dance, some of them can dance extremely well on a technical level, but sometimes I have to wonder if they are even enjoying themselves (i speak with authority cause that's how i look when i dance too ;) ). to any art form, whether its dancing, singing or acting, there is a technical formal apsect to it, as well there is an emotional aspect to it. And although there are many superb non-latin salsa dancers, i think that no-one can ever dance salsa better than someone who grew up listening to it. -- SR

January 15, 2004 -- JZ and SR

I can't believe nobody complained when JZ and SR went on to state that nobody can dance like Latinos, more especially Carribean Latinos. I am with you Canadian salseros here. Contrary to what many people might think I believe , I believe anyone can learn to dance salsa well. You don't have to be Latino or even Cuban.

I do believe salsa is basically Afro-Cuban music and Cuban style salsa dancing expresses the music better than other styles. But I do believe people can learn if you are motivated. For example, Billy Bryans knows more about salsa than most Latino DJs in Toronto. God gave all people of every race and nation equal talent and abilities. Many Canadians people dance better than Cubans. Not all Cubans dance well. In fact, only small percentage of Cuban people dance really well. Most people in Cuba just dance socially. Many Cubans dance well because they heard and danced to the music since they were young.

Most average Canadians have never heard salsa or have seen anyone dance to it. Cubans are NOT genetically predisposed to dance salsa or have salsa as part of their souls. Come on. JZ says "mestizos" dance well because they have African roots. Actually, mestizos are usually referred to people who have mixed Native American and European roots. Mulattos are ones that have African roots. Even if you do have African roots, does that really make you dance well? Cuban people, dance and music including salsa are more African than Puerto Rico. Does that mean Cubans dance salsa better than Puerto Ricans. Of course not. In fact, compared to Cuba, Puerto Rico looks like Montana or Seattle (very white). Race has nothing to do with it. Many African Latinos dance salsa, cumbia, rumba, etc, well, duh, because the music comes from their communities, not because they are genetically predisposed or they heard salsa when they were in their mother's womb.

JZ makes the point that Spanish is his native language. So what? Just like people can learn to dance salsa, people can learn to speak Spanish. I have met many American and Canadian people who speak better Spanish than many native speakers (well, at least better than many second generation Puerto Ricans born and raised in New York).

You guys are use words like "salsa in your soul". Or Latinos dance salsa with passion and feeling. These are pretty words. But do you mean? How can we measure soul and passion?

JZ, I am sure the Chinese girl you saw dancing thought she danced with soul and passion. Can't you give us something concrete ? I am sure you would not agree with that. -- Chincub

January 27, 2004 -- Latin dancer

Hi everyone, I can not explain why but there is definitely something in the Latino culture that surpasses all other ways of living salsa.

Non-Latinos have learned how to dance salsa BUT they still will never feel and understand the way Latinos dance, love and live.

Why the most successful salsa nights happen to be where the Latino-soul hangs out, i.e. El rancho, Babalus, Lula Lounge ? -- Latin

January 30, 2004 -- Latin's e-mail on January 27, 2004

I am saying this a Latin woman. Latin. If you think only Latin people dance with soul, you should get a refund on it before it's too late. Rose went to Brazil. She found the salsa dancing in Toronto more advanced than in Brazil. No one would dispute Brazilans are Latin.

Salsa is the product of Latin Carribean (Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic) and New York. Naturally, you will find the best dancers in these places. As a Cuban woman who has travelled through out the Carribean and Latin America, most South Americans have trouble dancing salsa. North American Latinos (I mean Mexicans, not Mexicans in Canada or the US), Central Americans, and South Americans don't even do the cross body leads (dile que no o paseo). Most everyday South Americans have trouble finding tha clave. Of course, there are exceptions (people from Cali, Colombia dance very well). But these parts of Latin America tend to be close to the Carribean or have large populations of African Latinos.

Most good Latino dancers from South or central America learned to dance that way here or in New York or Los Angeles. Most South or Central Americans living in Canada accept Salsa as part of their culture. But back home, it is NOT part of the culture like it is in the Latin Carribean.

Too bad you can't explain why for you Latinos dance with soul and you can't explain why Latinos' way of living, loving and laughing is superior to all others (did you copy this expression from Rene from United Salseros?). You can't explain much, can you? But if you think that Latino culture is so superior, why do you live in Canada? Every culture has good and bad points. But you seem to think only Latin people have the secret to laughing, loving and enjoying themselves.

And for your information, it is the Canadian people from various backgrounds who keep Babalu and Lula Lounge in business. On any given night, there are more Canadians than Latin people at these places. And as for El Rancho, you don't count the Latin guys looking for a second or third wife, you will find you have more Canadians than Latinos. -- Hortencia

February 5, 2004 - Response to Hortencia

Hortencia this is what your posted: I am saying this a Latin woman. Latin.

If you think only Latin people dance with soul, you should get a refund on it before it's too late. Rose went to Brazil. She found the salsa dancing in Toronto more advanced than in Brazil. No one would dispute Brazilans are Latin.

Hortencia, perhaps you should open your mind to understand what is really going on here. First of all, I think that stating Toronto' salsa dancing is more advance than that in Brazil based on the limited insight someone could get from visiting a country for only couple of days sounds rather outrageous and narrow-minded to me.

How many salsa spots/people/events did your friend Rose experience during her stay in Brazil ? how would you feel if some Brazilian guy went to Newfoundland and came back to Brazil claiming there is no salsa in Canada ?

secondly, what exactly do you call 'advance' salsa. Anyone with a little bit of intelligence in their brain understands that we are talking about two different styles of salsa. Do you call it advance salsa just because it looks better to your eyes ?

This is my favourite one: Salsa is the product of Latin Carribean (Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic) and New York. Naturally, you will find the best dancers in these places.

As a Cuban woman who has travelled through out the Carribean and Latin America, most South Americans have trouble dancing salsa. North American Latinos (I mean Mexicans, not Mexicans in Canada or the US), Central Americans, and South Americans don't even do the cross body leads (dile que no o paseo). Most everyday South Americans have trouble finding tha clave. Of course, there are exceptions (people from Cali, Colombia dance very well). But these parts of Latin America tend to be close to the Carribean or have large populations of African Latinos.

Ooops!, I just realized you also need to learn how to read English. In my comments I never mentioned Mexicans or South Americans. As a matter of fact, my comment, as you also noted, encompassed the people from Cuba and PR who are also considered Latinos !!!!

More of your "stuff" .... Most good Latino dancers from South or central America learned to dance that way here or in New York or Los Angeles. Most South or Central Americans living in Canada accept Salsa as part of their culture. But back home, it is NOT part of the culture like it is in the Latin Carribean.

BullShi*. Salsa is everywhere ..... El Salvador, Panama, Venezuela, Mexico, etc. By the way 'Salsa' is not necessarily mainstream in Latin Caribbean anymore. The young generations also like Hip Hop, Rap, Perreo, etc.

More ....... Too bad you can't explain why for you Latinos dance with soul and you can't explain why Latinos' way of living, loving and laughing is superior to all others (did you copy this expression from Rene from United Salseros?).

You can't explain much, can you? But if you think that Latino culture is so superior, why do you live in Canada? Every culture has good and bad points. But you seem to think only Latin people have the secret to laughing, loving and enjoying themselves.

Who said Latino Culture was superior ? I believe you were under the influence of some illegal substance when you read my posting because I just don't see how you came to these conclusions. And for your information, it is the Canadian people from various backgrounds who keep Babalu and Lula Lounge in business. On any given night, there are more Canadians than Latin people at these places. And as for El Rancho, you don't count the Latin guys looking for a second or third wife, you will find you have more Canadians than Latinos. Hortencia, Can you provide some numbers ? -- Latin

February 6, 2004 - Latin's e-mail in Latinos dancing forum

Rose is actually the person who runs this website if you didn't happen to know. I don't think she spent just a couple of days there and I think she went to San Paulo, the biggest city in Brazil. But she can speak better for herself.

San Paulo is not exactly Newfoundland. For me advanced salsa dancing means being able to dance to the clave, the rhythm of the music. Something that not only South Americans but many people have a hard time doing. Dancing to the clave is an objective thing, not something that just looks good to my eyes.

I lived in San Paulo for a year and a half and I have visited Salvador, Bahia and Rio. Most Brazilians don't know how to dance salsa. Most Brazilians don't even know the difference between merengue and salsa. Most can't name titles of salsa songs or salsa singers. That doesn't mean there aren't any good dancers or they can't learn as the Brazilian e-mail responses to this website have shown.

I know you included Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic when you said Latins. But I don't agree with you when you say all Latins dance well. You say Salsa is everywhere in Panama, Mexico, El Salvador, Venezuela. If that is what you mean by everywhere, why don't include New York or Toronto.

I think salsa is as popular in Mexico as it is in Toronto. Most Mexicans don't know how to dance salsa. The only Mexicans who know how to dance live in DF or in Southern Mexico. And surprise, it's near the Carribean. And surprise Panama, Venezuela, el Salvador are near the Carribean.

And most of these countries dont't actually make the salsa music that is heard there.
Most of the salsa heard in Venezuela, el salvador, Panama, and Mexico come from the Latin Carribean (except for Ruben Blades who had to go to New York to get good and the amazing guy from Venezuela). But these are the only 2 famous guys from the countries you named. Where are the great salsa bands from Argentina, Mexico, Brazil or Chile? These are Latin countries.

Except for the 2 or 3 cities in Mexico, you can't even find nightclubs that play salsa. If you go to salsa nightclubs in Mexico, Argentina or Brazil , you will find Cubans are Puerto Ricans teaching how to dance salsa. These are not a few exceptions. These are the most populous countries in Latin America (Brazil, Mexico and Argentina). Play salsa all night at a party in these countries and see what reaction you get. So, excuse me, when I doubt you when you say only Latin people know how to dance salsa.

And lastly, you say I can't read English. But you are the one who wrote "advance salsa dancing", not advanced dancing. You wrote : there is definitely something in Latino culture that surpasses all other ways of living salsa.

You wrote : but they will never feel and understand the ways Latinos dance, love and live. It sure sounds like you are saying Latin culture is superior. Well, at least in terms of dancing, living and loving. And how do you live salsa? Are you saying living for Latinos is like dancing to salsa? Surpasses sounds like superior. And certainly your word "living" encompasses culture (my word). I passed around your first e-mail to my co-workers who are native English speakers. And they had problems trying to figure out what you were trying to say. Who has the problem with English, huh? -- Hortencia

February 8, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I think this is quite the interesting discussion. From an outsiders (neutral) point of view, I think there is a little too much generalizing of people going on in this thread. When people use words such as "never" or "all" or "none", you are all just showing your ignorance.

Tip: don't use absolutes in a debate; all it takes is one example to prove you wrong!! Every culture has music and music is the universal language. To hear someone say that "non-latinos will NEVER..." feel this, or do that is so ridiculous that it's laughable. I think these attitudes stem from insecurity and the need to hold on to a culture that some latinos feel they are losing.

The irony of it all is that salsa has never been more diverse and wide-spread throughout the world; the credit for this has to (at least partially) go to non-latins!! -- Vansalsero

February 12, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Just wanted to mention and clarify that I use the expression "Live, Love, Laugh and Salsa" BUT don't think that Latino's are superiour by any means. I don't believe that's what Hortencia implied but it does kind of sound like this (also as per some of TOSALSA readers).

Also, salsa dancing means being able to dance with your partner and not just the rhythm of the music (on or off the clave). Also, many Latinos, who can't dance, are too proud or embarrased to take lessons to learn how to dance. Though we've some latinos take lessons I believe that there should be more. It shouldn't matter if the Instructor is Latino or non-Latino. They potential student should have an open mind as long as there is something that the instructor can teach them. They can always try other instructors to learn from as well. Live, Love, Laugh and Salsa Rene www.unitedsalseros.com

February 12, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

It's not a case of "latin vs. non-latin" - that's just plain silly. What separates the good salsa dancers of hispanic-american origin from the rest is the benefit of having being raised with the music. That is not to say that every hispanic can automatically dance salsa and that every hispanic has been raised with salsa music in the home - many can't dance salsa and many weren't exposed to it at all. Nor can a hispanic-american dance salsa better by virtue of her "race" - whatever that is.

As with many other dance forms, those who were exposed to a particular music form and dance form from early age almost always have an advantage over the dancers who learned at later stages. This is why most non-hispanic salsa dancers (unless they've been exposed to salsa all their lives) don't appear to have the same fluidity, seamless, and effortless nature in their dancing as hispanic dancers. There are a lot of great non-hispanic dancers - but they are usually most impressive in the technical aspects.

And no, not everyone is created equally - everyone has different talents and some are just born more talented than others. It is not a case of nurture over nature. Anyone who has been in a dance studio has probably seen a student or two who took a lot longer and had great difficulty learning to dance. And, then there are those who look at a step once, and they're off... Anonymous

February 18, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Music and dance is a universal language. I cannot believe that people are arguing over who is better at dancing and responding to latin music. -- Sammy

March 3, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I am not latino, but I grew up with the culture most of my life. There is absolutely nothing in the frijoles revueltos that will make you dance with more passion.

However, there is a certain 'latin warmth' that seems to be lost in translation when it comes to dancing in Toronto. I think a big part of it is cultural. Friends of mine exposed to Latin American culture are often amazed by the frankness, friendliness and openess of the people. This is a sharp contrast with the more privacy-centric, individual and 'colder' attitude that prevails in a big city like Toronto.

When I see latin people dance, there is heavy flirting, great energy, funny moves, smiles, shoulder shakes and eye contact. The dancing becomes an extension of the culture's openess and embodies its attitudes and sense of humor. In Toronto, I often feel like I am dancing with somebody's forehead, as it takes great effort to get the other person to even look up, making it so much harder to connect.

I think another factor lies with the instructors. I've taken classes with both Vladimir Aranda and Sarita Leyva. I am often shocked by the frankness and the amount of love for the dance that they show when teaching. I think Sarita gets more excited than her students when they get the moves right. These instructors will constantly explain and indoctrinate their students on the meaning of the music and dance to them and their culture, something few other instructors seem to do. [ From the top of my head, Estelle from City Dance Corps and Stephanie from Mambo Tribe also do this from the non-Cuban instructor camp. ]

Fortunately, I think we can have the best of both worlds in Toronto. There is no reason anyone cannot be a technically superior dancer that also shows great passion and connection with the music and their partner. It is just a matter of being aware of it and exploring it. -- Tomas

March 26, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

This topic is very interesting. I am not Latin, but I have been to Cuba, and that is where I first started learning salsa... It's true, when I went there from Canada I had a very pleasant culture shock - so much warmth and energy...and I felt it all... but I am not Latin?

When I came back I continued learning at clubs etc. (now I am at the stage where I really need an instructor in order to improve any more) Whenever I've had a chance to dance with very advanced dancers, some of them instructors, I have gotten comments such as "you dance from the heart"... when I am on the dance floor I feel like I am in another land...in fact if I don't take a break my jaw hurts from smiling and laughing...not intentionally...it all comes naturally...

But if there's one time when no matter what's going on in the world I am happy it's when I am dancing. But wait! I am not Latin! And I did not grow up with salsa around me, I only started dancing it at the age of 18.

How is this possible??? One thing's for sure, anyone can feel the music if they give themselves up to the music...I still have a long way to go technically wise, but in terms of feeling the rhythm and warmth and energy of salsa...it's like a drug! -- Aleksandra

March 26, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I just wanted to make a quick note to those who support that all it takes is Carribean or "Latin" blood to dance dalsa. Generally speaking your are right, but if I were from Latin America or the Carribean, I would encourage my diverse friends who love salsa dancing to keep doing it and tell all their diverse friends about this wonderful opportunity to experience warmth and happiness. That way, my culture would be appreciated even more (than it already is) all over the world.

Just for clarification, dance is a form of expression which makes it an art. While the latin american culture owns salsa, it does not own dancing. Salsa dancing is the methodology, just like waltz or hip-hop are, to express the art of dancing. Like any methodology, salsa dancing is learned, i.e. you either learn it from family, or take lessons. No doubt that someone who has been "practicing" salsa dancing from age 0 is likely do it better than someone who has discovered it at age 23, but not always.

My husband is from Havana, Cuba and to my amazement, he cannot display the most basic salsa step or even keep the rhythm, nevermind lead me. Without your innate ability to dance, you could be from Cuba three times over and still not be able to dance, nor would you be interested in it. Dancing, movement and music are beautiful no matter in what form. Salsa dancing happens to be appealing to many cultures, encourage and support it whenever you can as a way to be proud of your latin american heritage.

May 18, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I just happen to come across this salsa link and found this discussion interesting. I'm Puerto Rican and I agree with most of you yet have my own take. I believe every culture, race, ethnic group...has there own "soul", "passion", "fire", "energy" and they have very specific forms of expression.

For those of us with roots in the Caribbean, we express our Energy in a very touchy feely way. It's how we Love, Dance, Move. I do believe it comes from our roots and I include Brazil, Columbia, Venezuela and Panama, we all have African roots and influences, along with the Spaniard Meditteranean grace and love of music.

Have you ever seen a Hatian woman dance? A Jamaican woman? How do their movements differ from a Latin Carribbean? We love to move. When we feel the BONGO or the CONGAS, we just want to naturally move. Even those that are more conservative and/or shy are stirred by the sound. The difference is our music, which has evolved through the centuries. We all share many of the same types of original African dances, very tribal, drums beating, women moving their skirts flirtasiously, with rythym in the most sensuous way and men chasing them, throwing down.

These forms have evolved into mambo, guaganco, bomba, plena, merengue, cumbia, murga... in the Latin Carribean and some of the other Latin American countries. Many of these sounds and dances influenced a style in the early seventies that originated in NYC:"SALSA" from the mix of Cuban and Puerto Rican greats "a la Celia Cruz & Tito Puente" types.

Then came the street sounds & influnces of Willie Colon, Hector Lavoe, Palmieri... the music created the dance - add to this styles of American music and NYC Dance and you have the incredible form of SALSA dancing a truly credible "street", "urban" dance that is what it is now - International!

Now that's a mouthful! I'm not finished yet. My husband is Hungarian and he loves my culture and traditions, he loves the way I love, the way I dance, the way I move, walk. He loves how my body just takes over on the sound of congas. It stirs me. It does not stir him. I stir him, but my music doesn't. The MUSIC, not the dance is what is part of our soul, it's a passion! Dancing SALSA is how we express our soul, our passion. That's why we do it so well! -- Missy

May 19, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I do agree that when you truely feel the music and are able to get lost in it mind body and soul it is truely different then just dancing to the music. I would also venture to say that I prefer to watch the magic of the moment created by someone who may or may not have a lesser technical skill level who is dancing with feeling and passion because the music moves them rather than someone with training behind them who is creating a moment, trying hard and showing off.

Actually thats how I feel about choosing someone who I'd like to dance with. Is he/she dancing with me? Am I the only one in his/her universe for that moment in time? Are they ignoring me and showing off to his/her friends? Are we both taking care of each other's well being and not hurting eachother or others? Am I having fun?

I feel some of what was said was quite pompus and some to me has some merit. Attitudes like yours often make people feel unwelcome in the clubs and thats not right. It also perpetuates the cliquey behaviors of some and that makes it less likely that someone newer will stick with it and enjoy their dance experience.

I do beleive the art of the social dance has been lost in certain societies and is still very deeply rooted in others. I commend anyone who wants to add it to their lives and see them as enjoying the rich tapestry of humanity. I also see more adults discovering the love of music and moving to it as a good thing and potientially a way to reinfuse this society with the idea that dance is not just for trained professionals but for everyone.

Mebbe just mebbe this will trickle down to the children of these dancers who didn't grow up with it. Perhaps future generations won't have to discover the dance later in life and overcome the fact that they aren't used to moving their bodies to music because they too would have grown up with it and never had to give it a second thought. Its part of them and who they are too.

As for the comments about backgrounds and relativity to the dance. I did state above that many cultures have dancing really deep rooted in it and yes, those people tend to move well. Watching someone dance or actually dancing with them you'll get to know their vibe/groove and how they hear the music by feeling it through the conection.

The question I'd like to pose to you is how do you know what someone's background in dance and music without asking them and just by their appearance? I'd like to pose that appearances can be deciveing. Myself I am a short, white, girl, and if you go for a steriotypical 'look', I supppose Scottish or Irish might come to mind. My background? Jamaican, Spanish, Portugese. I have been social partner dancing since I was a child... early memories are of winding, jitterbugging and boogiing with my uncles and other relatives.

I am on the newer side to Salsa but I have been doing other social partnered dances for years and even travelling to do so. More often then not I go to a Salsa Club and don't dance much. Sure I get looked at and guys try to pick me up but dance? The trend seems to be that once I finally get a fairly adventurous guy to dance with me I'll end up dancing a whole bunch but its not usually till very late in the night, if at all. I think its one of the many reasons I don't go out much.

Apparently, I don't look the part. Aafter reading some of these posts I am thinking this may be why? Going out alone as a female has its pitfalls and I am greatful for the company whenever an Asian friend of mine decides to join me. He's of a different dance background but is a phenominal lead. He gets turned down one heck of a lot and other times ladies are just plain rude to him.

Girls if, you are truely following and not just in autopilot you should be able to go with a good leads interrpretation of the dance even if it does break the mould a bit. Also would it hurt to 'take one for the team' and not be so brutal about saying no? If he had a better time when out I am sure he'd invest some time in learning some of the typical patterns and give you more familliar territory. Why not nurture a new lead who's learnign curve could be quite fast? Perhaps this post may inspire some of you to ask someone new to dance? Mebbe accept a dance you would have turned down? -- JG

May 19, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Just in response to the comment that opened up this discussion, and pointing to the part that mentions the performance at Club Cache by the Carlos Konig Dancers, I want to clear up 2 things first:

First, the "caribena" mentioned in the group is actually from Ecuador, which I believe is in South America.

Second, the Asian girl in the group is Filipina, not Chinese as a later response commented.

So - anyone ever think that, quality of dancing and performance aside, these generalizations of racial and ethnic backgrounds might be narrow-minded and conducive to dividing people who might otherwise be dancing in harmony? Whatever your idea of passion, or love, or life, can you accept that people from different backgrounds might feel the exact same thing in a different way?

By the way, I'm the Asian girl who danced that night, and I have no problem admitting I had to learn EVERY aspect of salsa from scratch, especially while performing, and still have a lifetime ahead to learn, knowing that I will never get to the point of perfection, but that what motivates me to keep going is that, with everything I learn with my body and my mind, I open up more of myself, my physical and spiritual identity, to other people. I never had any dance training, except for what I've learned in salsa, but I know I am passionate about it, and everything else I do in my life.

If other people can't see it while I perform, it may not make me the best performer, but (to a later reader’s comment) don't say I am not passionate and cannot learn to love and live the way Latinos do without even knowing exactly where I (or my friend, and fellow dancer) even come from.

And finally, I love and adore all the Latin cultures and people, and although I was not born feeling Latin music in my “extranas” as the first reader commented, the music sparked a great love and excitement that I believe will stay with me until I die – and I owe that to Latin music and to its MANY people. But again, don’t generalize aspects about my race/ethnicity/culture or that of other Asians who, by the way, are a growing segment of New York Latin dancing. Instead of generalizing us and putting us in a big category – get to know us, and maybe, if you’re open to it, you can learn how to appreciate the DEPTH of our individual feelings and experiences, just as many of us are learning to appreciate ALL Latin cultures. -- aa

June 23, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I am a jazz musician and I have come across similar "arguments" with respect to latin music - that one has to be born "latin" in order to be able to play the music with any real understanding.

This "argument" often borders on racism - and of course there is the colonial reality that for some still hinders the appreciation of music whose roots are other than europe. But who would say that you have to be european to sing opera or play mozart etc.. This is absurd and stupid. And contradicted by reality (there are many outstanding classical musicians from all sorts of cultures).

Now obviously if you have only heard latin music for two weeks or practiced and studied for two years you are not going understand it as well as someone who has dedicated their lifetime. And one must absolutely and unequivocally respect and come to know the source of the music.

But can someone learn to speak another language? Of course. As well as a native speaker? Well it depends and it has nothing to do with where they were born or the colour of their skin. A person's capacity to learn a new language depends upon their how old they are when they started learning and their desire, their love of the new language, their passion, dedication and discipline. Also sometimes we can even appreciate a language spoken with a foreign accent - even finding it beatiful. Latin musics (plural please - there are many many varities) are in this way like languages. I believe with respect to this argument there is no difference between music and dance. -- Jarl

July 6, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Hello JR, I did'nt get your point from your post that latin dancers are better than non-latin dancers? I dont get it, what are you implying? Should non latinos should just give up salsa? Do non-latino's need to pay a royalty to latinos when they dance? Are you jsut trying to inflame non-latino dancers? Or are u just bragging about something completely superficial and which u have absolutely no control over? (maybe we should choose our ethnicity in accordance with our interests next time? wait a minute, we CAN'T pick our ethnicity!)

Please answer anyone of my questions as i totally don't understand the purpose of your post. You had absolutely no say in being latino, why brag to us about it as if it's some sort of achievement of yours? Now, what if an American anglophone brags to you about how America was built by whites and no matter how hard you try you will never be able to fit into America like a white man? How would that make you feel JR?

And for your information the MAJORITY of latino's don't even dance salsa nor are they interested in salsa, so your statement really does'nt have much merit. I have 7 latin american friends through university and work; 1 from el salvador, 2 from ecuador, 1 from argentina, 2 mexico, 1 from colombia. NONE of them dance salsa and i can absolutely assure u they do NOT "feel" salsa when i play it (the only latin music they listen to is merengue and cumbia). Maybe u should say only puerto ricans and cubans, not the entire latin american world, are the ones that "feel" salsa.

By the way, whenever i dance ppl tell me i must be such a "good" dancer because it's in my blood (i look latino), but when i tell them i'm from the middle east i get a stunned look like i just shattered a core belief. Such nonsense, but hey if perpetuating that myth helps u pick up clueless ladies then all the power to ya, just remember that this forum is'nt browsed by uninformed young ladies that know jack about salsa. -the salsa rabbit

July 8, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Bah! Dancing and music have no nationality. If Latinos dance better than your average non latino is because they were brought up around the music. I get a kick out of people talking about dancing in clave and so forth and so on when they couldn't recognize a clave if it bit them in the rear.

Do you know what a 3/2 clave is? or a 6/8? Unless you are a musician (a percussionist specifically), most people don't have a clue. I am Cuban and play Latin percussion and I have seen Cubans (and Puerto Ricans) who danced like they had two left feet.

And I have seen white girls at clubs who could really cut the floor. But I will tell you this, when it comes to learning rhythms, black people usually can get them quicker than any other ethnic group. At least that has been my experience from teaching Afrocuban and AfroRican percussion.

I have noticed that folks who are not of Latino or black background tend to analyze or think the patterns too much. They get them, but they look and sound mechanical. Perhaps that is the key, more so than just an ethnic thing. Just Do It! It's like watching people who were taught to dance Salsa at your neighborhood Arthur Murray and those who learned it in the street. -- Miguel

July 24, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

There is only one point to all of this....... Feel the music. It does not matter where you are from. I am from Nova Scotia and I can feel the latin rhythms. Dance and Feel the rhythms -- Martin

August 25, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Anyone who thinks that you need to be Latin to dance with the soul and passion that Salsa music is founded on will never really be able to exprience the true "soul and passion" it is meant to communicate to the masses.

As an African-american who has recently found salsa, I've been asked more times than I can count if I'm of latin decent. Each time I'm asked if I or my parents are from Cuba, Panama, the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico I smile. More over, I am always asked by persons of Latin decent who have been dancing for mere days or a lifetime.

At the end of the day what makes Salsa (or any dance style for that matter) so powerful is it's ability to touch a part of you in your soul that is beyond words. When it reaches that perfect spot that is when the movement comes as a second nature. For each person that movement comes in a different form. Some people are better in tune with that connection than others but we should never judge anyone for the way the music communicates with them. Or for that matter how they choose to communicate their understanding of it.

When you can appreciate how music can touch different people in different and how it can touch you in a way beyond words, then and only then will you who believe that only Latin born persons can "feel and dance" salsa music will truly understand Salsa. Just my two cents... Salsera Negra

October 11, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

In reply to Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers I read the first message that started this post and thought it was actually quite ignorant. I didnt' bother to event give it a second thought but the situation actually came up in my salsa group.

Our instructor who is Latin organized a dance performance which due to the limited number of guys left some of the girls out. Well one of the Latin girls got upset becaue she didnt' get picked and felt sleighted because she was Latin, like it was owed to her.

I'm sorry, but being born of a certain race doesn't entitle you to jack in this world, and it doesn't give you any special dance powers. I'm Asian, and does that mean I was born knowing martial arts, how to do a 360 degree jump kick? NO. I took lessons, from a WHITE guy who could kick my butt any day. So if you think that way, then I agree with an earlier poster..you'll never truly be a great dancer. Great dancers pay for their skills with blood and sweat, not because they just happened to be born in a certain region of the world. -- VN

November 4, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I was reading this discussion and found it very interesting! I have two opinions on this matter! I do not mean to offend anyone! I am a latina, and have been listening to music all my life. I absolutely love to dance, especially when it comes to salsa. I agree with the fact that it does not matter where you come from....music is international and it is a passion that comes from within.

Many of the best salsa dancers in Toronto are not Latin! I find myself starring at them in awe because they are so good. I admit, I think to myself, "why the heck can't I dance like that....I mean, I am Latin!!" But the truth of the matter is, these non-Latin dancers have worked hard to dance the way they do! Many did not grow up with the music, (they don't even know what the songs say!), but they go out there and exhibit the passion through dancing....and they are damn good at it!

I congratulate those non-Latin people who go out there and do their thing! I love my Latin culture and I am very happy and proud to see that others like the culture as well!!

Okay, here it comes..... On the other hand, although I think Non-Latin dancers are great, they're still missing something! NOT ALL, but some. Some dancers could be too technical and too stiff (Counting numbers with each step as they dance!) Latin and African and Middle Eastern people have "the hip movement" going on...others no matter how much they practice just don't have it!

I do not mean to offend anyone, it's just my opionion. Latin dancers do have one advantage over the non-Latin dancers( I don't care what anyone says!), we understand the language and know what is being said in the songs, because of this we tend to feel it more.

Maybe a song relates to us....as you know many salsa songs are romantic. Again, please forgive me if I'm offending anyone! The most important thing is to have fun and enjoy the music through the art of dancing! Who cares where you come from! I just wanted to make a point about Latin dancers! Again, congratulations to the Non-Latin dancers who are working hard to become great salseros! SALSALOVER :)

December 1, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

No offense to you salsalover, but I am saying this as a Colombian, but most Latin people don't know how to dance salsa either. Very few people in Argentina or Chile dance salsa on a regular basis. Actually, most South Americans, Mexicans, or central Americans need help with locating the clave and the basic step, the exception being salsa dancers from Cali, Colombia.

I have had Mexican, Colombian and Venezuela friends, almost all of them I have had to teach to dance salsa. Of course, they think they know how to dance, but they are missing the clave, the rhythm of the music. I had to make them count 1,2,3, because they hear it in the music well, but of course, they thought they could.

I learned because I went to Cuba and enrolled in a school. I took a whole chunk out of my life and wallet to learn correctly. The difference between Canadians and Latin people is that Latin people think they know how to dance, so, they won't take lessons.

In the Latin Carribean, like Cuba, Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic, most people have more of an idea what salsa dancing is, because salsa is more part of the culture. Also, salsa does not equal Latin culture. It may be part of Latin identity in North America, but it is not part of Latin culture. It is part of Latin Carribean culture, because it comes from there. You can hear salsa all over Latin America, but it is nothing like salsa's popularity in the Latin Carribean.

Another point, probably the Latin people you think know how to dance salsa learned to dance salsa in North America. If people danced LA style or New York style in Colombia or Cuba, they would laugh, not because they dance badly, but because it seems so exaggerated and fake.

The Canadian people you say dance so well, in my opinion, they are not so good. Of course, some of the things they do are amazing like the spins, dips and shines and I can't do that in a million years. But it is not salsa, because it doesn't follow the clave.

Salsa is about the music. If they did these tricks to the clave, then it would be salsa, but they don't. When these people do multiple spins in one spot, what quick-quick-slow are they following ? I said most Latin people can't dance salsa correctly. And I will stick to that.

But the small minority of South American people who are fans of salsa and like to dance it probably dance better than Canadian people because as you said they grew up with it, and have had more practice dancing to it. Most Latin people will dance to salsa even if don't know how to dance, and they like to improvise their steps. They don't need a partner or expensive lessons before going on the dance floor like Canadians. Latinos dance salsa more freestyle and sometimes without a partner, which is something Canadians should learn. Remember the hips come from the African influence in salsa, not the Incas. -- Alex

December 3, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Dear SalsaLover, I am totally agree what you have said, the " hip movement, and understand the language and know what is being said in the songs ". And all of these dancing make a big difference. regards ichiban

SalsaLover Querido, Soy convengo totalmente lo que usted ha dicho, el " movimiento de la cadera, y entiendo la lengua y sé qué se está diciendo en las canciones ". Y todos los éstos que bailan diferencian grande. respeto, ichiban

December 6, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

hello everyone.... I havent posted in years, so I dont want to seem like an intruder...lol Alright, I danced pro salsa for 5 years...No I am not of latin decent, but I am of Arabic decent..

In the beginning I was one of those dancers who was lost on the floor and the 1-2-3 didnt exist... All my life I have had a love for Salsa music, but started dancing in my teenage years. I found that you have to love the music & understand the vibe ( not necessarly the words ). Otherwise you are just someone dancing to steps with no love. I average to dance on a decent level & to dance without counting the 1,2,3's it takes a year.

After that you have it or you dont. So what I am trying to say is that you have to love the music. If you have the passion you can dance, but its easily not found. A Salsa Freak Doesnt develop over night....Once you find yourself dancing in the grocery store, than you know...;)

Also as for Ba-ba-luu's clients...Correction...the place is owned by a Columbian woman Nubia who is a friend of mine, managed by Latino , Cook is Latino along with the bartenders.lol Canadian's do go there, but they last for one drink & than try to attempt a dance, but are thrown off the floor by the Pro's..... thanks...hope this does something...lol Dina - SALSERA

December 7, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers (response to Alex!)

No offence taken Alex! First of all, I am a woman, not a man! I agree with you...there are many Latinos that do not know how to dance, but my point was not that!!

My point is that even though Latinos can't dance (even the basic step!) doesn't mean that they don't feel the music more than Non-Latino dancers! I'm not offending Non-Latin dancers, but it's the truth! We understand what the song is saying...we feel it in our hearts!!

Many Non-Latin dancers are great dancers (but they, in most cases don't understand what the song is saying...that is my point...nothing else!) On a different note: I strongly disagree with what you said about non-latin dancers (Candians) not being good dancers.

Just because you went to Cuba for lessons does not give you the right to put other dancers, especially those who are not of Latin decent down!! If they dance the way the do, it's because they (like you!) have spent their time and "wallet" to learn new steps and the art of dancing! I give them alot of credit for what they have to go through (dance classes) to be amazing dancers.

My suggestion: do not put dancers down! That shows what kind of character you have! There is no RIGHT way of dancing....there is only your way of dancing...and if that makes you happy...then...so be it!! You should be happy and honored that our Latin culture is liked by so many people (non-latin). I love seeing people who are not Latino take part in our culture...especially through dancing!!! Congrats goes out to them again!! Salsalover :)

December 8, 2004 - Dina and Salera in Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

It is Colombian !! Not Columbian. Canadians can be the Pros too. In fact, if you go there to Babalu's Tuesday, Wednesday, Sunday or Thursday, most of the people on the dance floor are Canadians and they are pros. I am Colombian and I'll even admit that. -- Daniel

December 9, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I agree with Alex's comments. I have also seen LA salsa dancers/instructors dancing to Cuban salsa at Babalus on Tuesdays and let me tell ya that it makes me feel embarrassed to the new visitors and people who want to experience and see real salsa dancing and instead they get to see someone trying to fit some choreographed routine to a Cuban son ... what is it with the hand-lifting on every single turn ? looks fake, common, and boring. Anyways, it is just sad to have to witness such ridiculous act.

By the way I am not cuban if that's what you are thinking. Also, for those LA dancers .... could you please refrain from doing acrobatic circus-like acts when the dance floor is jammed full (like Fridays or Saturdays at babalus). It just does not make sense. Be aware of the space around you. thanks Vic

December 10, 2004 - Native vs Non-native

Hey everyone I was thinkinking about both sides of this issue cause I am a Afro-Latino, and I have really seen what alot of you are saying. Latin people do dance salsaith alot more heart and passion, but why not its our culture.

Now I've dance it every since i was little and I'm only 20 now, but there is a difference. Think of how you have that favorite song from when you were younger, it brings up a different passion than it does for someone who does have heritage with the music.

And that the way salsa is for latinos. It our culture, so how could anyone come up and say that they have matter someone else's culture better than the natives; thats just crazy. Some of you should really watch the good movements of everyone cause it is true that there are goods, even great salsa dancers in other cultures, but as a whole latinos have salsa on lock. You can't take the heritage. Es por la raza. And anyone who argues that is just wanting to argue. -- Bdon

December 17, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Let’s draw a parallel between salsa and the English language. English is spoken in Britain, Canada, USA, Australia, India and numerous other countries. I am sure that you can hear very distinct differences among the English spoken in different countries. Although English originates from England, would you consider that English spoken in all other countries inferior to the English spoken in England ? I don’t think so.

What we can say is that the various English are different because of the natural evolution of the language based on geographical differences. You wouldn’t expect to be laughed at in Australia just because you speak English differently from the people there. By the same token, you wouldn’t laugh at Australians here just because they speak “funny” English. There is no issue of superiority or inferiority.

It is the same with dancing. A dance MIGHT have been invented in a single country, but as soon as it migrates to other country or even city, it’ll evolve in its own way. There is nothing wrong with that. Dance is part of culture. Culture is dynamic. So someone complains that salsa is danced differently here than in Cuba. Big deal ! That is only normal. -- Man

December 31, 2004 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Hi everyone! I would just like to comment about latin and non-latin people. when it comes to dancing salsa, I respect all those people who can dance to it. A lot of non- latin people can dance salsa very good. I'm not putting down to those people who can't dance salsa. I knew salsa can be dance by anyone.

When you love dancing you have to be open minded. You can't just dwell on the same routine all the time. There's always more for dancing. You can't compete salsa dancing the same routine or style that you've done a year ago then comeback the same scenario. Dancing is fun. All people can have the same opportunity in becoming a good dancers. Don't put other non latin people down just because of the way he/she dances. For me you are all great. Adios..............virgate

January 2, 2005 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

I too think this is a very interesting discussion. No one can deny that Latino dancers have that X factor, is it the way they move? They way they feel? The way they think about dancing?

I for a long time was trying to figure this out. As a man of greek origin, I can relate to this issue. It is very hard to teach a non Greek person how to dance our solo dance in Greece ' the zembeikiko' like a greek, but IT CAN BE DONE, and it can be done in salsa too.

I know this because I have been told that I dance like a latino. But this took hours of watching latinos dance, falling asleep to salsa music, feeling what they feel inside when they dance. We non latinos have years of catching up to do with the latinos when it comes to their level of maturity in salsa dancing.

Just to emphasise how stupid one point was that dance well was in the Afro-carribean genes. There are white latinos who have their roots in spain who have been in cuba and the rest of Latin America for generations and they can dance as well as any Afro-Carribeans.

However to dance like a latino you must first accept that their salsa dancing has matured over many generations compared to other salsaleros, one you accept this then you can dance like one and perhaps even better than one. -- George

January 4, 2005 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Latin vs Non-Latin The existence of a “Latin Race” is ambiguous, since there are varying degrees of ethnicities and races within the inhabitants of the Latin world. A person born and raised in a Hispanic country, with familiarity of the culture, can claim Latin heritage.

But what about a person who moves from another country or region into a Hispanic world? Take a person born and raised in the Great White North, for example. If this person becomes familiar with his new community, their culture and the local version of the Spanish Language and identifies with it, can he ever claim to be considered Hispanic? If he produces offspring, after copulating with a “local” born and bred Hispanic, would the offspring be considered true Latin?

Let’s say this former Canadian, now living with his beautiful family in Latin America with a new citizenship, who once danced just below average in Western dance, now decides to take lessons in Latin dance. At first he has difficulty, because his body, still habitually accustomed to the Western beat, occasionally falters momentarily regressing back to the dance he learned in his upbringing. This falter becomes even more apparent after he has consumed several ounces of the local snake brew. Nevertheless, after a few short months of dancing the rhythm, this person dances with more flair than average, though occasionally he accidentally throws his Western steps to the beat.

Among the local population, profound debates begin to take place about the former Canadian’s Latin dancing. The debates are about how authentic his dance is to be considered. The traditionalists find his dance offensive to tradition and proclaim it an abomination. The comics find humor in his dance and mimic it bringing the entire pueblo and our dancer, great laughter. The modernists, on the other hand, find his dance style original and proclaim this as a new fad. The historians argue that dance and interpretation continually change with time and migration and that these changes have continually influenced for ages. Their debate continues. -- Mofester

January 5, 2005 - To Salsalover: Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

Maybe it is politically correct to say there is no right to dance salsa. But I think most of us would agree dancing country or ballet to salsa music would not be probably correct. In fact, I wish Canadian people would have more imagination than the narrow parameters that salsa teachers teach them here.

Moreoever, if you are not dancing with the music, you are probably not dancing correctly. If the music is not important you say, then you can dance any old polka or modern jazz to salsa music, which is their right, but it would look pretty silly.

What do you mean you feel salsa music in your hearts? Other people say Latin people dance with more soul or passion. Or they have it their blood. What does that mean? Then, I would say most Latin people should get some blood transfusions, because it is not working, baby.

You dance well, because you have had practice dancing and listening to the music. In my experience, people from South America tend to overestimate their salsa dancing ability. Moreover, most Latin American people in Toronto take a condescending attitude to Canadian people about salsa music and dance.

How many Latin American people can mention a salsa artist who is popular in Cuba (Celia Cruz doesn't count because she became famous outside Cuba and her music is more representative of New York salsa)?

How many Latin American people know what timba or casino dancing is? Most of the professional Latin dancers here learned to dance like that here, not in Latin America.

And again salsa is not Latin culture, it may be North America Latin culture, but it is not Latin culture. Most Latin people do not know how to dance salsa (take for example Brazil, half the population of South America). Maybe you can make the argument salsa is Latin Carribean culture. But Salsalover, can you name any famous salsa groups from your country? -- Alex

January 5, 2005 - Latin Dancers vs Non-Latin Dancers

As you can guess from my name, I'm not a latina. Far from it. I'm Jewish, Israeli, with my roots and family history deep in Eastern Europe. I live in Jerusalem, dance in Tel Aviv, and while I can see what some of you guys mean when you talk about technique vs. feeling (duende, is that how you guys call it? ;-) ),

I must point a few things out. I've been dancing salsa for nearly 4 years now. I can say from my own personal experience as well as from plenty of people I know in the local scene, that the more we learn about salsa and afro-latin music in general, the more we want to know.

Perhaps the best example I can give was at the last Israeli Salsa Congress in April '04 (make sure you get to the 2005 event! it'll be huge!), when the amazing Griselle Ponce gave a few workshops (lessons) about Bomba & Plena, which is basically Puerto-Rican folklore, afro-rican (if that definition exists). Those lessons were a phenomenal success, especially when you consider that for most salseros in Israel, no one knew about Bomba or Plena.

What's more, I can hear it even now 9 months after the congress, how much people regret missing those workshops and how much they want to her to come back and teach more of it. Therefore, I would say that even if you're not Latino, Caribeno, Cubano, or anything, you can still connect to it... because I believe that somewhere those rhythms exist in all human beings...

Rhythm is a part of the human psyche, no matter where you're from, and what race you belong to.... it's not a color or race thing at all. Many of us here are looking for & attending workshops on how to appreciate afro-latin music and dance (be it salsa, guaguanco, bomba, plena, son, changui, whatever) on an even deeper level, because we truly connect with it... and we're Israeli Jews with roots ranging from Russia to Yemen, No latino blood in us at all (at least for most of us).

so if I'd hav to conclude this whole speech in a couple of sentences, I'd put it this way: It IS in the soul, and the feeling, and the connection to the music. I'd like to think there's a broad range of ways to express that connection. Some people do it it through investing their heart and soul (night & day, no kidding) in improving your technique, or just shaking it like there's no tomorrow.

Either way, you should see salsa-holics over here, singing to themselves in the army, practicing steps or "shines" while waiting for the bus, and just generally obsessed with this music and this culture... Because, my dear Latinos, your culture is a magical thing. I, personally, as a salsa junkie (it's so bad it ain't even funny) and a salsa teacher, would like to see this culture spread to the whole world... for that, a little good will and a sharing spirit is needed.

The question is - Even though we're not Latinos/ caribenos/ cubanos/ mulatos, are you willing to share this magic with us? I hope with all my heart that the answer is a mighty, resounding "Claro que si!" :-)

Sincerely, Dina Dunkelman in Jerusalem.

January 10, 2005 - Response to Man in Latin vs. Non Latin

Your analogy of the English language to salsa dancing is wrong. Of course, no one would say the English from Australia is inferior. But you talking about apples and oranges. English is spoken by all the people in Australia. English is spoken in all the political and educational institutions of the country. English is THE language of everyday language of everyday conversation and popular culture in Australia.

Are you saying this about salsa in Toronto? I am open to salsa dancing being changed and improved upon, by the way, this happened in Colombia and Venezuela. 90% of the people in Toronto do not know the difference between merengue and salsa. I would say 99% of Canadians do not what salsa dancing sounds like or looks like. Even in Toronto where salsa is more popular perhaps the rest of the country, there are only two SMALL nightclubs (El Rancho and Babalus) that have a salsa night more once a week.

Most of the salsa musicians are from other countries, only a handfew are Canadian born. Salsa music and songs are almost never played on TV or the radio. There have never been any salsa songs in the top ten ever in Canada.

Are there any salsa singers that are recognizable in Canada? Are they any salsa singers from Canada that are famous around the world? There are only about 200-300 people who go salsa dancing on a regular basis in Toronto (at least once a week).

Perhaps your analogy with English and salsa would fit well with soccer. Brazilians are the best at playing soccer. But soccer is not from Brazil. However, most people in Brazil know what soccer looks like. Most young boys have learned how to play soccer.

What percentage of Torontonian men have learned to dance salsa (0.01%?)? Futhermore, there are professional leagues, soccer on TV, millions of fans in Brazil. Soccer players are national heroes in Brazil? Are there any famous salsa dancers in Toronto that are national heroes?

Compare this to Cuba, Puerto Rico, or Colombia. Most people have seen salsa dancing. Most people can distinguish salsa and merengue. Most people learned to dance when they were young. Salsa singers are heroes. Manolin, el medico de la salsa, stop being a doctor because there was more money in salsa.

Sure, there can be a natural evolution in salsa, and culture is dynamic. But the natural background for a salsa evolution is there in Toronto yet. Most of the professional dancers are following their New York and LA heroes. Most salsa musicians come from Latin America. People who know salsa dancing number in the hundreds, while most people in Toronto remain oblivious to salsa all together.

There is no Toronto style salsa dancing. There is no salsa song that has become popular that is associated with the city. No salsa group orginally from Toronto is popular around the world. By using your logic: a Korean man who learns English in Canada, and learns it fairly well (which is more than Toronto salseros learn about salsa) can go back to his country. He has some Korean friends that he can speak English to, but they speak as well as he does. So, once in a while, they practice English in Korea. Does this make Korea an English speaking country? Does this make his English prefectly valid even though they still make a few mistakes? -- Manuel

January 10, 2005 - Latin vs. Non Latin (To George)

To George, A few Latin people can dance salsa better because they grew up with the music and dance, not because of generations of maturation in the dance. They DO not dance better because of their genes or blood.

And to dance South America or Central America salsa styles, it is not hard to dance like them. Do not let any Latin person make you believe they can dance better than you, because it it not always true.

However, I would like to destroy the link you have with Latin people and salsa dancing. Most Latin people (Brazilians, Argentinians, Mexicans, etc) do not know how to dance salsa well. And probably dance as badly as you think Non-Latin people dance. The Latin people who you think dance well are Latin people who learned to dance salsa in North America. Cross bodies leads are NOT done in either South America (Colombia, Venezuela) or Central America (El salvador). With that said, I think you can dance as well as them, because you live in North America.

Latin people who come from the Carribean (Puerto Rico, Cuba, the Dominican Republic), which is a small minority of the total number of Latin people in the world, DO the cross body leads. But furthermore, it is very difficult even for good South or Central Americans to dance with Cubans. But a Cuban would never suggest these Latin people have no passion, soul or feeling for salsa, something these Latin people always say about Canadians.

Some Canadians who have gone to study salsa dancing Cuba, dance Cuban style salsa very well, mostly because they have more of open mind than most Toronto salseros or Latin people in Toronto.

To conclude, to dance salsa well, you DO NOT need to be Latin. You must have an open mind, learn and enjoy. Learn about the music, and you will learn about the dance.

Also, George, I do not think people said it is because of African Latin genes that makes people dance well. Salsa, merengue, bachata, cumbia, rumba, are from African Latin communities. You can not deny that. Does being African Latin mean you are a good dancer? Of course not. But if you are African Latin it is more probable you have danced and listened to this music. Actually, a stereotype that many Afro-Cubans had about white Cubans was that they could not dance, like the same stereotype African Americans have about white Americans. Of course, this was not true. But it was shattered when this Cuban white guy invented all the crazy stuff with the arms and revolutionized Cuban salsa dancing. -- Alex

January 10, 2005 - Latin vs. Non Latin

I thought I would like to share my personal view on this topic I think when it comes to Salsa; Salsa doesn’t know color, race or believes. It depends on each individuals and u love Salsa then that’s excellent rather than picking on everyone else we should be expanding the borders and increasing the interest of people about salsa music globally.

I'm Salvadoreno living in Australia and even thou the Salsa Scenery isn’t as huge here then as in Canada USA or even Israel, people here down under are interested in Salsa just because they are aussies doesn’t mean that they cant dance or have the interests for it.

I think salsa wherever u are in the world u can dance it your way .. besides even if there is a proper way of dancing salsa, we must be open to new fronts and new ideas nobody is perfect, as a central American I was born listening to cumbias but I learnt to appreciate the meaning of Salsa so I can do it am sure a non Latino can as well.... Luis

January 11, 2005 - Latin vs. Non Latin

I think what makes a latino dancer different from the rest is that back home salsa dancing is a social and family custom. For the most part, people dance for the joy not for the show. You see grandmas dancing with grandsons, husband with wife, etc.

The difference is that in North America salsa is used for show. People "compete" to show their technique using a pre-made dance routine. Back home, in most competitions all couples competing dance at the same time to the same song that the DJ randomly picks on the fly.

Therefore, one must feel the music first in order to create a fun routine that awes an audience . Someone who knows mechanical moves but doesn't feel the music would look foolish dancing in this fashion.

In Toronto, dance competitions lack of this important aspect (in my opinion a must-have for this kind of competitions). What measures a good dancer is their ability to instantaneously find 'la clave' and then spontaneously create a routine that goes with that music. Toronto competitions measure ability to learn and perform a pre-made routine.

I say that because I have competed and performed already and I know this is true. Think about this : someone who doesn't know how to dance could hire a professional dance choreographer and enter one of this competitions. This person would learn and perform the routine perfectly well but does this mean he or she knows how to dance ? ..... I thought so.

Another example is the so much praised video with Frankie Martinez dancing in PR. If you think about it, what makes this guy look great is his ability to spontaneously create a good routine on the fly. A

January 17, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancers

Alex...it seems like you're a little bit edgy! Relax hermano! All I'm saying is that it's not right to put non-latin people downwhen it comes to their dancing abilities. That's all! I will not say anymore as I do not want to waste my time with you arguing about silly things! I agree with Bdon! It's our culture. People cannot take this part of us away from us. If you could describe our culture with a few words what would it be....family, art, music, food, dance, etc. These are all important aspects of our culture (of course there are many more!).

I love to dance to salsa, maybe even consider myself a salsera! I love music and could feel the words when I dance, because I understand what the singer is saying and could feel the passion in which he sings with! I see so many non-latinos dancing, and are very amazing at it, BUT they are missing something...they don't understand what is being said! (Of course, except for those Non-Latinos who know how to speak!)

This is not their fault of course, but that's how it is! I do not mean to put anyone down...those are not my intentions, I just wanted to make a point! Going back to Alex...what do you mean Non-Latin/Latin do not dance to el clave? YOu are getting a little to technical buddy. Can't people just go out and have a good time dacing the way that makes THEM HAPPY? I would love to see YOU dance Alex! Salsalover :)

January 17, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancers

I agree that there are a lot of gringos(as) dancing with technique who have absolutely no rythm and passion. I believe this is not a "cultural" issue, but a "dance school/teacher" issue. We are at the era of "fast-food" dance classes. Because people are such in a rush, the only salsa taught is the "salsa-ballet" how to turn, shine and dip but not many instructors spend time teaching how to listen to the music and feel it.

Two friend took lessons for over a year with a well known TO teacher, and yes, they know more turns than I do, but they dance like they have a broom up their butts and unfortunately, they can't dance with anyone else than their dance class partners. It is ridiculous.

A while ago, I had the chance to learn with a Colombian teacher who made us feel the music while learning the steps. She used a clave all the time in her class. Yes it took me a while to learn the dips and shines, but I am enjoying dancing salsa, cumbia, bachata, merengue, son vallenatos,rancheras with any Cuban, Dominican, Colombian, Mexican or anyone else. I am often mistaken for a latina and it has nothing to do with my origin.

To really dance "like a latino" with passion, is to "feel" the music and the rythm. The music goes through your soul and out of your body. Dancing Salsa,cumbia bachata and merengue with a great partner is better than sex and chocolate ;-). Unfortunately my friends who are still counting the steps after 18 months can't say the same... BTW, I just came back from " the salsa capital" Cali, Colombia and there is a pueblo called Juanchito, where there are salsa clubs everywhere. Amazing if anyone of you can go. And NO... salsa does not come from USA. Maybe salsa-ballet but not salsa! Cheers, from the French-Canadian gringa with a Colombian heart.

January 23, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancers

Cross Body salsa that is taught and performed at congresses all around the world is its own culture. It is not Latin culture. Numerically speaking, there are far more non Latinos who do this style of salsa and it is only tangentally related to the salsa that is popular in a relatively small number of Latin American countries.

The confusion comes from giving them both the same name, but they are not the same thing, as this thread demonstrates. Salsa that has spread around the world is about inclusion and about striving to improve your dancing. I have lived and experienced salsa scenes on four continents.

As regards the original post, I have personally been to several Asian cities with better social dancing scenes than a number of Latin American cities, including, most notably, San Juan, Puerto Rico.

In cities around the world, I have been welcomed as a fellow dancer by countless dancers and it is only in Latin American countries where I have found people cold and indifferent... and I am fluent in Spanish.

Latinos belief that they feel the music more and that makes them better dancers is not the case on a single scene I have ever visited. If anything, that very attitude holds them back while other people move ahead with their lessons.

I find this thread depressing and disenheartening... it's just simply not true. I have met so many wonderful dancers of so many nationalities, shapes, and sizes who dance better than most Latinos, not Latino dancers, but Latinos in general. That is not to say there aren't fantastic Latino dancers... there are... but being Latino doesn't make you a better dancer.

You know what makes you a better dancer? Practice, lots of practice. There is absolutely no meaningful correlation between nationality and salsa dancing ability. None. Zero. Does not exist. Period. Practice with good instructors and good partners is what matters.

Honestly, as I keep writing, I don't even know what to say. For those of you who are so close minded, it boggles the mind. I find this entire discussion so disrespectful to the overwhelming majority dancers who are not Latino who have worked so hard to acheive something. To belittle them as inferior when they are clearly not shows such a pettiness and a ignorance that it defies words.

Salsa has given me a lot over the years and I like to feel that I have given back. If I could give it one more thing, it would be to erase this ridiculous notion and to make it about what it's really about, sharing an experience, a love, and a passion with other people... not petty, and patently false discussions about national origin and shame on you who do otherwise. -- QZ

March 8, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancers

Being a non-latin, and on 1 dancer, I've read so many articles about latin dancer being better that non-latin, on 2 is better than on 1, etc...

I think the real question is, why do latin dancer need to claim they are better, why do on 2 dancers need to claim that they more understand the music than on 1 dancer.

Whether it's true or not, why is it of such importance as long as you dance in a good spirit. I think it shows a frustration of some kind, and going further I would even say that there is a threat feeling hidden here, may be a loss of identity feeling.

If latin dancer were so much better that it would be so obvious why would they need to claim it on every forum ? I think there is such a dilema because it is not so obvious. This latin culture is spreading so fast around the world that, if not already the case, more non-latin people are dancing salsa than latin people.

And on the same idea, in a few generations, there will be more non latin people who will be raised to the rythms of originally latin music than actual latin people. I'm also glad this stays on the level of culture and how you are raised, as I would hate it if it was taking a racial ascendant. I'm also a non anglophone born, so I hope this makes sense Michael - Vancouver

March 14, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancers

I think it is clear that the people most involved in the creation of Salsa (for Salsa: Puerto Ricans and Cubans-both islander and New Yorkers) are the best dancers of any genre, overall. Of course there are great Canadian, British and Venezuelan dancers of Salsa music, but percentage-wise I think it's obvious the numbers will be lower. For example, while you have great (world champion) reggae dancers in Japan, the greater numbers of super reggae dancers will be in Jamaica.

One thing that I do see that surely must make latino dancers better than their non-latino brothers (brazilians included, sorry) is their understanding of the language. Like it or not, one's ability to really feel and express the music they love is through the words, so people who don't understand can't truly be 100% fluid in their movements.

I do want to agree with somebody before me in stressing that the countries that make up Latin America are not uniform. Many of the latinos to be found in Toronto are from countries that don't dance/listen to Salsa except maybe the big hits. Most of them (and their kids) will have learnt to dance here in this city. Therefore really, the Ukranian and the Mexican who got here in 1988 could be technically equal dancers, and only the language issue could hinder the first guy from being a better overall dancer.

Oh yeah, by the way, someone wrote in and said that since Rose went to Brazil and they don't dance Salsa as well as up here means that 'latino'-ness doesn't equal good dancing. Well, I don't know whether that's good reasoning.

Brazil, while being in Latin America, has a very different history and culture than the other countries therein. They do have a similar mestizo (which by the way just means 'mixed' in spanish, so whether black/native/white, mixed however, they're all mestizos) bloodline as Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Caribbean Colombians, Venezuelans etc. However, due to their distinct heritage (portuguese culture and roots for example) their dance is Samba and other smaller ones. My point is that just because Brazil is in Latin America doesn't mean they should dance Salsa well. It's not their culture. -- Boogie

March 28, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancers TO JZ

No. salsa was not born in NY. that's where you frist got exposed to it. Salsa was born in Santiago de Cuba under its original name Son. Then it moved to Havana with the army during the presidency of Estrada Palma. Salsa is not like the pizza, invented by an Italian in New York. Salsa was invented by Cubans in Cuba. New York is probably the 20th place where it was accepted in the world. In fact, no one claims its authorship because it is believed to germinate from and among the people. I also heard a Newyorker saying once that Karate was born in New York. Guarachero

April 4 , 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancer

Salsalover, I like your attitude. I mean people should go out and have a good time and dance whatever they like to salsa. I wish Canadian people would do that more instead of taking classes with limit their dancing to showy choeorography from their teachers. (Who says you need a partner to dance salsa?)

Salsalover, this website is for salseros or salsa fanatics, who are into the "technical details of dancing salsa", not people who want to have a good time. Moreover, this is nothing technical about saying dancing to the clave. It is just means dancing with the rhythm of salsa music. To the "gringa", The fact that you are Canadian and French, would actually rule you out as a "gringa", despite what many Colombians called you. It seems strange that you adopt such a perjorative name to call yourself.

To QZ, You are absolutely WRONG about Cross Body Leads. And I hope everybody is not mislead by your e-mail. Cross body leads are Latin culture !! You say you have seen salsa on four continents, but have you been to Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic?

You didn't see a cross body lead in Puerto Rico? Are you blind? These are the countries that form the center of salsa. They DO cross body leads, this is where cross body leads originated. I am sure that Cubans are not doing cross body leads to imitate people at North American salsa congresses. It is called Dile que no, and they have existed long before any salsa congress.

My Cuban teacher told me that everything in Cuban salsa dancing can be reduced to a cross body lead (in Spanish Dile que no o paseo). They don't do cross body leads in South America or Central America. But I agree you don't have to be Latin to dance salsa well.

Michael - Vancouver, Remember salsa does not equal Latin culture. Most people in Latin America (Mexico, Argentina, or Brazil), except a few salsa fanatics, do no know much about salsa music or dance. It may be North American Latin Culture. You say Latin culture is spreading. Okay. We are concerned about how it is spread. Many people believe salsa dancing has become separated from history, culture and tradition, and been watered down to McDonaldized, commercialized version of its real self.

Boogie, I agree with you almost 100%. Latin people who grow up where salsa music and dancing is part of the culture, like the Latin Carribean will tend to dance better. Learning Spanish will help you understand the music better, which is the key to better dancing. But I think Non-Latin can learn to dance like or even better than Latin people if they study, just as Non Latin people can learn to speak Spanish very well. -- Alex

May 23, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancer

This is coming from a African Cuban-born woman who has lived salsa all her life and has been to various major cities where salsa is popular. From NYC to LA to Puerto Rico to Toronto to Miami and finally of course my 'salsa-born' home back in Cuba.

I must say the first message along with a few other responses were extremely ignorant, pompous and rude. How dare you tell non-latinos that they will never 'feel' or be able to dance salsa the way a latino does? Are you afraid that people all over the world embrace salsa so much that you may lose 'your' culture? I have met many non-Latin people dance just as well as us Cubans, and found other Latinos' dancing ability to be quite laughable to say the least.

Sadly, I would also like to state that it has been my experience with American and Canadian-born Latinos to be extremely rude to non-Latinos when it comes to salsa dancing. Most of you tend to act more superior about it, and take a pompous attitude to those non-Latinos who are honestly trying to learn salsa.

True Cubans and Caribbeans would NEVER take this type of attitude to those who are not from the Caribbean. We would NEVER make someone feel uncomfortable about embracing our culture and taking the time to learn about it. Therefore, your attitude and statements shame me as a Cuban woman and shed a bad light on us Caribbeans.

By the way, I would like to correct you on the 'mestizo' bit. Mestizo means 'Native American and White.' As a Latino, aren't you even aware that Latinos come in all different races, shades, and colors? So are African Cubans superior to the Chinese Cubans in salsa dancing? I think not. As for the lady who said cause Latinos know what the song is saying therefore they 'feel it in their soul,' that is just another excuse to give Latinos an advantage over non-Latinos to salsa dancing. Humble yourself a little and realize that non-Latinos are doing well in salsa dancing whether or not they know Spanish.

To the non-Latino dancers, I commend you much for taking the time to learn salsa. Do not ever feel inferior to salsa dancing just because you are not Latino. And please please I encourage you take a trip to Cuba one day where you will learn the salsa of all salsas. We dance morning, noon, and night in Cuba. And we are friendly to those who wish to learn. You will not regret it. I have said my piece, and I shall back out of this ignorance filled discussion. -Zola

June 6, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancer

I just have to say im pretty young only 16 but i have been listing to salsa merengue etc for my whole 16 years in this world i grew up with it my fanily being puerto rican have alot of passion from where we come from i get teased by my friends beacuse at my age the only i should listen to is reaggatonand i do but once i hear my music the music i grew up with it brings me life there is no explantion to the feeling i hav ewhen i talk about it i just light up with happiness what ever you come from and yu start listening to this music i agree you dont have the same kind of feeling or passion as some latino descent but i do give credit because you not listen to this music if you did not feeel anything at all it would be a waste of time but at times to my ffamily its a insult if another decesnt tried to dance and did it poorly its dissrespectful and is prized very much its what gives us our flavor and it almost like people continue to take it from us ripping our name and culture from us -- Stepahnie

June 6, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancer

I believe alot of people in this forum need to read books and read whats in the lines. Don't just read one book..read all the books from the conquista of latin america to the present day culture or cultures that are set in latin america today. People who claim that because your caribbean you only you feel the music??? I guess you dont know your history of the complete latin america...not just the caribbean. I guess you have never read about the africans in Peru or mestizos if thats what you call it...or the mestizos in Colombia....and NO not the caribbean side of Colombia because Cali,Colombia is not in the CARIBBEAN and it is the salsa capital of the world.

Ask any Caribbean Salsero Musician and they will tell you. So what do you think about that? Also what about our african influences in Bolivia, Chile, Uruguay, Argentina???????I bet no one has ever known about that stuff. READ READ READ thats all I can tell you people. It gives you a proper understanding about what latin culture has and the many many things that many people never knew about the latin culture.

I think that Salsa is a beautiful thing and it is universal. Latin America has influence if you think about it from almost every part of the world...does anyone not agree??? This is why our latin culture is rich in many dimensions.

So for the people who claim that only Caribbean people can feel the music??? You are gravely mistaken. If you have a proper understanding of what the latin culture is including language and all of its components then you do have a understanding and sentiment and that can make you feel the music. To me its not just music and thats it...its culture, language, rhythm, sentiment and history all into one.

So if you dont have all these components then you may lack some feeling in dance. So everyone who is not latino dont even worry about those who claim that because they are latino they feel the music.....because a good 50% of the time they know nothing of the history or sentiment of what it is to be latino whether it be from Puerto Rico or Bolivia. And yes it is from Cuba and the Caribbean but the same background is in South America and Central America if you would just read. Reading is fundamental :). Take care all. -- Gio

June 23, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Dancer

All of this that I have just read is bull! Just because you can understand the language, the words of a song, doesn't mean that you can dance better to it. My first language is English. Does that mean that I can dance better than a non-English speaking person to a hip hop song sung in English? I think not! And by the way - not all Salsa songs are recorded in Spanish. I have heard Salsa in other languages such as English. So, does that mean that an English speaking person dances better to an English Salsa song that a non-English speaking person? I didn't think so. Please, all I can say is this - saying that "only Latino's can feel the music" is just a cover up for your true feelings of incompetence. I understand that it must be difficult to swallow the fact that a person who didn't grow up with Salsa is putting you to shame on the dance floor when you're the one who "should" be able to dance to it. Sabrina

July 11, 2005 - Latino Vs. Non-Latino Discussion

I just happened to have two Carribean musicians next to me a few minutes ago. I asked them if Cali was the capital of salsa in the world. They asked me where is Cali. I told them about the Latin Brothers, grupo Gale, grupo niche, Sonora Carruseles, Fruko etc. They knew them of course and they liked their music, but they thought it was old music and they had already passed their peak. I asked a Colombian about Cali. He said Cali is the capital of salsa in COLOMBIA. And he said every caleno knows salsa is from Cuba or New York. He also said Grupo Niche and Fruko were popular before, but the type of new salsa like Sonora Carruseles is not so popular in Colombia. He said this type of salsa is more popular in North America. -- Hortencia