Rosita, I know how you feel. I am Chinese guy. And I know some women turn me down because I am Chinese even though I was born and raised in Cuba and I can dance better than most salsa "superstars" here.

The people you haven't asked you to dance are probably into picking up someone not dancing. And they are not into Black women probably. As there are not many women who are not into Asian men for dating. But I say each his own.

It is a shame, because salsa music and dancing have decidedly African flavor. Salsa is Afro-Latin music. Is it curious that all of these rhythms like salsa, cumbia, merengue were founded in the African communities in Latin America. Without African music and dance there wouldn't be any salsa or salsa dancing.

In Cuba, most of the great dancers are Black. A common stereotype among Black people in Cuba (like in North America) is that most white people can't dance salsa.

But in Canada, salsa dancing as been dominated by ballroom dancing (dancing that for the most that is dominated by white people). For example, they take samba (Afro-Brazilian music and dancing) and they Anglicized it. When have you ever seen a Black or moreno Brazilian couple compete in Ballroom samba competitition? -- Chincub

I think it is because of all this Ballroom or LA style dancing. Ballroom is pretty WASP. (I am sure someone is going to write about some Black dancer they know in Ballroom dancing. But it is not common). I think it is because of the whiteness that many people from other countries find it comfortable. That's why, many Japanese, Eastern Europeans and Chinese people like it so much. It is hard to imagine these people getting excited over African dancing which much salsa dancing comes from. It has to do with what some people think is "classy" or "civilized" and usually most people associate that with European dancing.

That is a shame because most the great salsa dancers I have seen are Black like in Cuba, the Dominican Republic in Cali in Colombia or off the coast of Venezuela. Salsa is AFRO-Cuban music.

But most people here think that only people who look like the people in LA styling video dance well. Or they think people who look "Latin" dance well. But they think Latin people are only mestizos or look like Mexican people. In Cuba, there are whites, blacks, mulatos and very few people that look like what most Canadians consider a "Latin" person. There are Latin people of every race. But people here only have a stereotypical image of "Latin" person.

That is funny, Rosita, that only white and Chinese girls were asked to dance in these places. In Cuba, most Cubans would consider these people to be the last people to be able to dance well. (Because many there like here think white or Chinese people don't have rhythm). Most Cubans will dance with everybody They just to have a good time. not like here. -- Sungmin

Hi Rosita. I am a Black woman and I don't have trouble finding men to dance with. I mostly dance at Courthouse and Left Bank and I spend most of the night salsa-ing away! As somebody mentioned in an earlier response, it is important that you ask the men to dance, otherwise, it might be a lonely, ego-busting night. I learnt this very quickly and after 1. 5 years, I'd say that at least 50% of my dances are initiated by me, with a very low rate of rejection! In my experience, the men are more interested in how good a dancer you are, as opposed to your race or what you look like. I've been to Lula Lounge several times and I find it's a club for socializing and people tend to dance with the same person(s), as opposed to switching partners all the time. Generally speaking, I really don't think that being Black puts you at a disadvantage. If you're really interested in dancing, then ask guys to dance yourself, become a more regular face, make sure your dancing skills are on the rise, and you should have better luck! -- Monika

Rosita, Why do want to be accepted by these people anyways? These people don't know anything about the culture or music. They just want to pick a date. Go to Cuba and you will be surrounded by people who look like you and dance way better than in any of those places you mentioned.

I mean anyone can dance any style they want. And I have said this before. I find it a little disappointing when I see African Canadians or African Americans dancing New York, or LA style salsa dancing or Ballroom dancing. I mean they don't even know this music is really African. African Canadians and African Canadians don't know there is this island (Cuba) where people who look like them and dance like their African ancestors did. Salsa is Afro-Cuban music. Cuban salsa and Cuban salsa dancing have the most African flavor. It is like an African American learning to dance hip hop from Italians while ignoring his fellow African American dance instructors.

People can choose to dance whatever style they want, but people should learn and look at everthing before deciding. Salsa was not invented by Jennifer Lopez and people who looked like her. People in Canada always explore the white side of salsa dancing (ballroom). Or they copy professional dancers who come from a
culture that has anything to do with this music. For example, Josie Neglia (Italian-Canadian) or Johnny Vasquez (Guadalaraja, Mexico). You don't have to be Latin or Cuban to be a good dancer. But at least, you have to be willing to learn. God forbid any these professional dancers go to Cuba and learn about music and dance.

Canadians and Americans never explore the African side of Cuban dancing like Rumba, Conga, guaguanco,etc. And this African side of salsa is strongest in Cuba. -- Mechy

Hello Rose and TOSalsa.Com fans...

Admittedly, I was a bit taken back by the comments and suggestions put forth by the author and respondents of the article Re: Black women shunned...Aug 20, 2003

Specifically was the insinuation that "men" are racist pigs, and are not interested in dancing with ethnic women. WOW!!

Perhaps before the author chooses to delve into such topics, it might be suggested that she take several other factors into consideration.

For example, perhaps the reason you are not getting asked to dance..........

>>is that the dancing scene itself has changed, and both men and women
>>are becoming more selective in their dancing partners

>>perhaps the scene has become snobbish

>>perhaps it's because people are moving away from the pleasure of the
>>dance to the need to find new sources to pick up other singles (try
>>dating services guys and gals)

>>perhaps some of the men and women who are not being asked to dance are
>>displaying an "attitude", and are not being perceived as having a fun
>>time (which I believe is a pre-requisite for dancing)

>>etc etc etc

It's also perhaps true that I could sit here and come up with several other reasons why things are as they are........but I won't. I'm not really even suggesting that the preceding points are valid (though I do believe some are).

What I am suggesting, and the point of this exercise, is to emphasize that any story we hear or any situation we face has various perspectives or sides......and no matter how frustrated or peeved we get in our circumstance, it should never be acceptable for anyone to ever use the issue of ethnicity in an attempt to bolster their argument.

The author is correct in saying it is 2003........And we are much wiser and educated in 2003 than we've ever been. Let's use this to our advantage in a positive, constructive way, and let's not make such destructive blanket statements.

SOLUTION:

To all the ladies out there I suggest this........
For centuries men have been asking women to dance. We've wiped away the sweat from our palms, taken that deep breath, and made the long journey across the dance floor to ask for your lovely hand in this dance. Sometimes we get an "I'd love to", and sometimes we get an "I'm just going to powder my nose" (or some other ego busting response -- either way we're males, so we come back for more -- at least to an extent). But now we're in a whole new millennium.
More than ever guys actually like being asked to dance; it takes some pressure off our species....and makes us feel pretty good as well.

So gals, if you're not getting asked to dance, wipe that sweat from your palm, take that deep breath, and go approach that guy....he'll undoubtedly love it, and you'll love the fact that you're on the dance floor doing what you went to the club to do..........DANCE!

P.S. The downfall of a community begins with the harsh words spoken by one, and accepted by others.

Have fun, dance and live well....... Derek 'Round Town

I'm a white Toronto male who recently started taking Salsa lessons and I take offense to the comment that we are racist pigs. If you are a woman and are not getting asked to dance there are only a few reasons for it and colour is not one of them. The reasons are:

1) You are overweight! This is the number one reason! It is harder to lead an overweight woman. And you know what, I'll admit it, I enjoy dancing with thin women. Get off your sofa, stop eating doritos and go to the gym.

2) You dress like a slob. Women wearing skimpy outfits are more visually appealing to men and thus will get asked to dance more often. Caution...if you are overweight don't wear skimpy outfits.

3) You are a bitch. If you refuse dances or treat men like crap when you dance with them (i.e. leave before the dance is over..this happened to me recently!) don't expect guys to be lining up to dance with you in the future!

As for black women in salsa clubs, I usually only see a handful and they are generally overweight and dressed poorly. This is the reason you are not being asked to dance. I can assure you that a hot black women wearing a skimpy outfit will be asked to dance very frequently.

Rosita, you wanted a male's opinion on this and I think the above sums it up, even though it is quite harsh (and probably won't be posted). In conclusion, male salsa dancers in Toronto are not racist but we are pigs (and proud of it!)

Salsa Hog

Hello Rosita

“Hung up my dancing shoes”? You DO know you will encounter racism ANYwhere you go, be it at a Toronto Club or at any nice resort in the word. I am sure you meet it where you work, or in the bus, the subway etc... Do you stop going to work? So why let some attitude and assumption ruin your time of fun?

I am a black woman who goes to the same clubs you go to in TO and I get asked to dance regularly. I suggest you give yourself a change and hang in there.

I might have some suggestions that have been working 4 me so far and I sincerely hope that - at least one - of them will work 4 u:

ü Salsa as a “social dance” is better danced w/ a partner BUT, if or when you are not dancing, “work the floor” (you will give potential partners a chance to see you)?

ü S M I L E (even when you are not “clicking” with that particular guy – and move on to someone nicer..); Yes, even racism can be fought with class

ü ALWAYS BE YOURSELF! & RELAX!

ü BE EXTREMELY patient and ALWAYS courteous with everyone (even when you must refuse a dance).

ü Do not think that you are invisible because they DO see you, along with every frown on your face and any offence that you take. Attitude is key; it might either attract or deter a partner.

ü Instead of fuming over the guys who ignored you, try to make your evening a learning experience. Remember, the night is YOURS to capture so, HAVE FUN!

ü DO NOT DESPAIR ‘cause, from my experience, many guys at clubs ARE “true” salseros and do not care a flake about your skin – they want to dance and feel the music. Some guys would even roam around you 4 months & months, never say a word and suddenly, when comes the RIGHT moment, will ask you to dance. Plus, they come in all shape, colour, age & nationality (a rare opportunity to experience how salsa is danced around the world) – Also, DO brush up on your salsa DAILY/WEEKLY, + take classes (the more your dancing skills improve, the more guys will ask you to dance).

ü When you finish dancing with a partner, make sure you smile & say “thank you”. Maybe next time, he will dance with you again, maybe not…but life goes on!

ü Do not be bitter (this does not work!). Shop around, until you find the club(s) & the crowd that suits you! You might want to try “Cervejaria” that regularly hosts a Cuban band and is very cozy. On the other hand, El Rancho, which is more vibrant, is also an excellent club to go to. Friday (often the best night) & Saturday.

I have been to Salsatheque in Montréal too & rarely sat down for the night. Clubs are like anything else, some time it is a good night, sometime, it is not. About Paris, I too went there this summer and even though I do not dance on2, I “ended-up” being invited to dance by one of the teachers of “Salsabor” dance co. (Salsabor is a strictly On2/mambo dance co. – Check them out if you return to Paris, they are amazing!) Also, if you wish to dance on1 in Paris, you might check “La Pach” (for Pachanga) or “The Limelight” where you will find both on1 and on2 dancers (your choice). Sincerely! Morena.

As I read your message I grew increasingly mad to see another male having the courage of posting such a disgusting note on this web site. Look Salsa Hog, this is a man telling this to you: you truly are a pig. I'm sure you're going to get lots of angry responses because of your stupidity, your stereotyping, and the superficiality of your comments.

Sadly, it is clear that you are being honest; you are expressing the way you and some other guys out there feel about women, and what you think they should do to get invited for a dance, etc, but your ideas are just repulsive and discriminatory. As an Afro-Latin man born and raised in the Caribbean, I HATE men who discriminate women for being fat, or just not sexy according to the ridiculous western stardards of beauty. Women should be accepted for what they are no matter how they look or what skin color they have. They are humans!!!!! Concerning the dance floor, to be fair, I have seen people of both genders refusing to dance with somebody else because of a variety of reasons. There are many men and women who wouldn't dance with you if they believe you are not good enough, but since I am not from Toronto I can't really judge what's going on there.

My advice for BLACK WOMEN if they want to find a friendlier atmosphere is probably to go to places frequented by Cubans. We appreciate BLACK WOMEN. The only problem will probably be at the time of dancing, because most salsa dancers in this country have no clue about how to dance the Cuban way, but you can solve that by taking some salsa classes with Cuban instructors there. There are lots of Cubans in Toronto, believe me, as soon as one of them sees you dancing like we do, you won't be able to sit down. I recommend taking the classes because from my experience it is pretty frustrating to dance with someone whose style we can't understand. This is all I can suggest, plus of course being brave and inviting a guy to dance. Personally, I could never say no to a woman if she invites me to dance, even if she doesn't dance like I do. To the Salsa Hog: you're not just a pig but also a coward wimp who doesn't have the guts to treat women equally. Unfortunately, the are more guys in this society who, like you, are being infected by the same media-induced sickness that makes them lose gradually their sense of what a woman is. Wimps! Pendejos!

El Conguero

Its a very bad attitude, especially for someone who is just starting to take lessons. I think if you express it otherwise than anonimously on this web site you will run out of people to dance with -- Tatyana

i've never written here before, but i can't believe the things i'm reading on this topic.

rosita, i sort of hear you on this. i'm black, too, and at times i've stood around while my friends danced and i thought maybe it was a colour thing. with some people maybe it is, but i can't make sweeping generalizations. there are lots of reasons guys don't ask girls to dance (e.g. they only want to dance with experts, are only there to pick up, girls give them attitude, etc.) - not all are justifiable, but what can you do? well, actually, you can ask a guy to dance. it's not easy, and i'm not saying i always do it, but you'd be surprised at how many fun dances you'll have.

i'm sorry that mechy is so embittered that she needs to refer to others as "these people". and, what if a black person likes L.A. style? what's wrong with that? i mean, i'm not really into the whole snobbiness of certain "professional" dancing circles at some of the clubs, but if that's what they like, so be it. i agree that most people have no idea of the background of the music, but attacking them is for sure not going to encourage them to explore it.

derek 'round town had a good point - some girls display major attitude or look like it'll kill them to smile. i'm not saying that's the case with rosita, but it's something for us all to remember.

i think it's fair to say none of us need to dignify salsa hog's comments with a response.

thanks for letting me comment! -- liv

To the male pig,

Look, you may be a male pig, but I think a lot of men, including some who wrote before, would take offence to you putting them in the same category. You might be, but not all men are.

Even if you are just a pig, and not a racist, that doesn't mean that there are not a large amount of racists in the crowd. Finally, I bet you are not a looker, and if you were, not the sharpest pencil in the box, so I wouldn't be discriminating on the basis of fatness, bitchiness or anything else.

To the more constructive issue of men not dancing with black women. Toronto is a very segregated society. It is a funny culture that sometimes fears other cultures. Have you ever heard two small-town people speak of their life? It is like aliens are talking of a distant world... no that there is anything wrong with it, just that I can't relate to it. To add to it, Latin America is a very racist society. I would also venture to think that boys might be afraid of asking black women to dance. May I point out, in racist fashion, that some of the best dancers I know are black, and at least one a woman?

Here is an alternative... if all you want is to dance, why dance with boys? you can have just as much fun dancing with women. I certainly do. Imagine the chances of dancing with a boy and it being the pig above? just avoid it altogether. No that i don't sometimes dance with boys... but really, once girls become amazing leaders, you won't care about boys asking you to dance... you can just do it yourselves. Then pig above, will once again become unnecessary. -- Cecilia

Dear Liv, When I said "those people", I meant people who discriminate on the basis of race when they chose a dance partner.

There is nothing wrong with a Black person choosing to dance LA style dancing. Everyone has their own personal preference. But I would suggest there is not much choice out here. Most "salseros" in Toronto have never even seen Cuban salsa dancing, but they feel they can make generalizations on it. For example, how many people in TOsalsa have said there are no cross body leads in Cuban style dancing? It is seems a shame especially for African Canadians or Americans because it is the salsa dance with the most influence from African dance and music.

In Canada, they accept the more Anglo Saxon versions of Salsa dance. The problem is that African Canadians and Americans don't know the African side of salsa dance and music. Don't accept, educate yourself. -- Mechy

Don’t take salsa hog seriously folks, he’s just the type that wants attention at forums by posting the absurd and sensational, every forum gets people like him so expect it.(his very name gives it away: hog/pig) But he does, despite his vulgarity, bring up some points that are pertinent. To be fair, the only racist comment I noticed was when he generalized that black women are overweight and poorly dressed. I’m not black, but most black women I’ve seen @ the clubs have incredible physiques and are drop dead gorcious, so I really think he’s misinformed(maybe that's my generalization?;) )

To the original poster, I think what he’s trying to say is control the factors within your control (i.e. clothes, appearance, and attitude), and ignore those factors that aren’t in your control, i.e. race. I’ve never had a problem asking girls of a different ethnicity to dance nor have I noticed any racism on the part of the male dancers I know from the different studios. I very much doubt it’s racism as there are some prominent black female and male dancers in the TO salsa scene and some have won competitions. I really think u should look at the other aforementioned factors posted by others.

As for the Cuban nationalism I see on this forum (I’m surprised by how many there are!!!), I don’t see the relation between American blacks and Cuban blacks, or especially African blacks. They come from completely different societies, are u telling me they can relate strictly on the basis of their skin color??!?!?!?!? That’s just ridiculous, I think a persons culture, whether it be afro-american, afro-cuban, or the host of different cultures in Africa, have a far more profound influence on their identity. There are greater factors on identity than the superficial feature of skin color, including one’s socio-economic status, culture, and language. Drop this “go to cuba u’ll be received like a brother if u’re black” nonsense.

I’m sure Cubans have bigger problems right now then worrying about their style of salsa being ignored. Cuban Americans/Canadians, on the other hand, might worry about all kinds of nonsensical points to ensure their identity/ego is asserted, but don’t try to pass your identity crisis as genuine Cuban issues. I think cuban dancing looks great but don't take the moral high ground on us because we don't dance it, and don't expect any special recognition because u're cuban, it's just silly.

PS sorry if i hijacked this thread with another cuban debate. -- pooh

M I am a bit surprised to see the angry responses from everyone regarding what I wrote. I knew my comments were harsh but I was just trying to explain what the majority of men consider in their heads before asking a woman to dance. I didn't sugarcoat it because THIS is reality. Go to any salsa club in Toronto and you will see the slim, attractive women being asked to dance continuously while the overweight/poorly dressed women are standing around, unlikely to be asked to dance even once during an entire evening. Look in the Tosalsa partner search and see how many men are looking for "slim" or "fit" dancers. It might not be right, it might not be fair but this is what is happening.

Salsa "pigs" are not anonymous...Go to any club and observe the men who only ask thin women to dance (the majority) and you will see how many "pigs" there are in Toronto. My goal is not to personally attack anyone but to provide an ACCURATE depiction of why some women get asked to dance while others don't, race being a very minor factor. I apologize if I have offended anyone with my post because that was not my intent. -- Salsa Hog

Well, the Salsa Hog apologized and I thought I'd leave the debates for a little bit, but I must clarify certain things to Pooh first. This is a debate that focuses on the situation of black women on the dance floor, so we will inevitably end up talking about issues like ethnicity and skin colour. You made an attack on Cuban nationalism, tried to make some points on social issues of ethnicity and even attempted to look like a pseudo-psychiatrist diagnosing us with a certain syndrom of much-needed "identity/ego" assertion.

Here are some quotes from what you said:

"I don’t see the relation between American blacks and Cuban blacks, or especially African blacks". Thank you for being so honest; it is palpably obvious you can't see it. You're just not black.

"They come from completely different societies, are u telling me they can relate strictly on the basis of their skin color??!?!?!?!? That’s just ridiculous," Look Pooh, no one here said we can relate "strictly" on the basis of skin colour. YOU SAID THAT!!!. This is a line of argueing that I have perceived a lot in these forums: a person makes up an argument (usually exaggerated, like the one you just made), and then easily counters it. You also said: "I think a persons culture, whether it be afro-american, afro-cuban, or the host of different cultures in Africa, have a far more profound influence on their identity. There are greater factors on identity than the superficial feature of skin color, including one’s socio-economic status, culture, and language." Pooh, please, don't tell us what we already know!! We don't need neither your sociological insights nor your redundance. And finally the other line I think you made up was "Drop this “go to cuba u’ll be received like a brother if u’re black” nonsense." I have searched through several of the commments stated here, and I haven't found any statement like this. Again, if you made up this quote, you are again following the line of making us look stupid.

NOW, THE POINT YOU DEFINITELY CANNOT, AND PROBABLY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SEE IS THAT, DESPITE ALL THE SOCIO-ECONOMIC FACTORS THAT MAKE BLACKS FROM CANADA, CUBA AND AFRICA DIFFERENT, MANY, MANY OF US DO SHARE A SENSE OF UNITY. WE DO HAVE THINGS IN COMMON THAT, REGARDLESS OF OUR BACKGROUNDS, CAN LEAD US TO EXPRESS SOLIDARITY, RECOGNITION OR ACCEPTANCE TO ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY. THESE ARE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE BLACK TO SEE, EXPERIENCE OR UNDERSTAND!!!

If I see a forum where there are black women complaining because they believe they are being shunned by men on the dancefloor, all I can do is recommend them to go to where I, from my experience, believe they will be accepted. Please, if any BLACK WOMAN out there has seen my point, could you please let Pooh know that we do have certain things in common that make us accept each other regardless of our differences. Still, an explanation for Pooh about how this works might be useless, since I've tried in the past to explain to other people and all I've gotten has been a huge question mark on their faces. This is anyways my experience as a black living IN CANADA, and I say again: IN CANADA. Personally, I haven't told anyone to go to the island to be welcome like a brother or anything like that. Ok, you finally said "don’t try to pass your identity crisis as genuine Cuban issues". Be specific, Pooh: to who are you referring??? To someone in particular, or to all of us??? If you are referring to all of us, then this statement is nothing but completely untrue, and daringly offensive. I don't know any Cuban born and raised in the island who has an identity issue, regardless of where they live now. We know who we are, we have a language, a culture, and many things that make us different, distinctive. Maybe the point you're missing is that we defend our cultural identity with passion. People often mistake passion for some sort of mental problem.

To conclude, all I have to say is that it is really sad to see once again someone like you who, without knowing anything about black identity, dares to come to a discussion forum on racial issues to drop his/her erroneous outsider's perspective. Once again I've seen that typical discourse that dares to question us when we tell who we are, and how we are, as you did out of ignorance. For example, I can see that you have absolutely No idea about how much Cuban culture has been shaped by African culture, or even know about our historical ties kept till present day with the African continent. Read! Here we are, trying to make other blacks aware of these facts, and there you are, telling us that we are wrong. This is more than ignorance, Pooh. Please, let black people speak for themselves. Believe me: we are well aware of our many differences. Now, let us share our similarities so that we can finally have a good dance!!!! -- El Conguero

Pooh, So, are you saying that African Americans and African Cubans don't have anything in common? Why do you they call them African then? So, are you saying that African Canadian has no influence from his African heritage? He is just Canadian? Or you version of what a Canadian is?

Peoples' skin color was important because people discriminated against other people because of it. Thus, people who were a certain skin had a common history of repression. Slaves from Africa come from many distinct cultures and society in Africa, but in the end, the seen to be the same by their masters. You don't think this has any effect on the present day culture of African Americans or African Cubans?

Peoples' skin of course is important. You say skin color is not important. You catagorize people by the skin colour too. You use the terms Afro-American and Afro-Canadians. I thought you were not catagorizing people by their skin color? Skin color is a link to where they came from. It is a link to a certain
culture and history.

You are like the liberals in Canada or the United States, who say I don't care if you are black, yellow or orange etc. They say this because they want to say they don't discriminate against people because of their skin color. That's great. Nobody should discriminate against another because of their skin color. I think every race has the equal capacity for kindness, intelligence, beauty, etc. But I am Black or African Canadian. You should care where I came from. You should care and learn about my culture and my background. I am Canadian, but I am also African. -- Mechy

Pooh, It is not our style of salsa is being ignored. Listen, you are not just talking about the color of your skin. You are talking about a shared culture. Do you wonder why so many leading African American senators, congressmen and celebrities go to Cuba? It is because they feel a connection to the African Cubans there. A connection you will never feel because you are not Black.

I know African Canadians, African Americans and Africans are a varied group. They have all different types of languages, music, and art. But we are talking about salsa music. Where is the African Canadian salsa music? Where? Africaness in Salsa music is in Cuba. Nobody can deny that.

Where do African Canadians learn about Salsa music and dance? From people who can't speak Spanish, who can tell the difference between mambo and salsa. I give you an example, that you can understand. Where does Cha Cha Cha come from? Nobody will deny it comes from Cuba. Have you ever wondered why nobody teaches or dances it this way in Toronto?

Doesn't occur to you, there is something wrong in the way Cha Cha Cha is taught in Toronto? Or at least, how the culture of the dance is transmitted to people.

I think the way salsa is taught to people in Toronto is denying a fundamental fact of the dance and culture of the dance and music. It ignores the Africaness of the music and dance.

Cubans don't have a identity crisis. You go to Cuba, nobody is losing any sleep debating where salsa comes from. They know where it comes from. This website is about Salsa music and dance. And it appears to me that most of the Cubans who wrote in know more about Salsa music and dance than you. Maybe we would respect you more if you knew anything about any type of salsa music.

Please, Pooh, you being so politically astute, tell of the bigger problems that we, Cubans, are facing. I would love to hear it. -- Chincub

While I do not believe this is the best forum to discuss issues of prejudice, I must applaud Rosita for her courage for expressing what may be a little nagging suspicion in the mind of many a black woman.

Its been more than 50 years since Ellison's Invisible Man was published and sadly, not much has changed.... Rosita girl, it seems you have forgotten that you are invisible.... Its not that people dont want to dance with you, its just that they dont SEE you - they dont see YOU... (this may also explain why you are at higher risk of being elbowed or stepped on on the dance floor :).

Invisibility is an affliction that plagues many minorities. In the Salsa scene it extends to the more voluptuous folks and new dancers...... :). To be "SEEN" you need to work pretty hard.

I am sorry you have had some bad experiences but I would urge you not to give up. It just takes time. In Salsa (as in life) its really who you know and how well you dance.... Being a "regular" doesnt hurt but if you are not a good dancer you could be a regular on the "X Files" :) (I dont advice going the route of skimpy dressing.... that is not necessarily the sign of a good dancer :)....

All the best woman - stay positive...and dont waste your energy being angry when you could use if for dancing.... M.

As an African (born in Africa) who has had the honour of visiting Cuba and a number of South American countries, I have found many,many similarities in culture and expression. In Cuba for example, I found warmth, intelligence, acceptance and kindness such as I have never seen (especially for people who have so little). Now throw in the music, the dance

I am disappointed by the ignorance displayed by the Hog (weight has nothing to do with how easy it is to lead a woman - in Africa bigger women are considered more attractive thank you very much!) and the Pooh (identity crisis my foot)... Maybe you should THINK before you write into some of these forums.

The worst thing about it is that it scares me to think I may have danced with one of you ....ugh..... -- Invisible Woman :)

I am a Black woman and I have given up on going to clubs in Toronto. Why? Very simple. The men will not dance with Black women. I have encountered this at the Courthouse, El Rancho, Plaza Flamingo, Lula Lounge, the club on top of the Manulife Centre, and Left Bank. I give up. I would like some feedback from the men as to EXACTLY what their problem is. They dance with young White and Chinese women in skimpy clothes and that's about it. -- Chiquita

My apologies Pooh, I did not mean to "ugh" you out with the Hog.... my bad.

Not sure what I was thinking though because it is unlikely the hog would ever ask me to dance (probably give him a hernia :)

Sandy...(sigh). Out of all the notes on this forum, it seems Pooh's is the only one that you felt was worth supporting.

Now what does being "very visible" mean? Is it a good thing - do you know? And why are you so ticked off? Is it so difficult to believe that there are limited places in the world where Africans are treated with warmth, intelligence and kindness (Cuba just happens to be one of them). Did you know that Cubans come in all colours too.... So my note was NOT about skin coulour more than that it was in response to a comment so relax....

Tell you what - Why not get some rich chocolate colouring and a Nigerian passport and get on a plane and fly around the world... Or even better, why not disguise yourself as a Pakistani with a Saudi passport (dont forget the brief case) and fly first class around the world. On your travelsplease list all the countries in which you were greeting with warmth kindness and intelligence..... Bon Voyage.

Invisible Woman

The answer to your question(s) about my email supporting Pooh would be: I felt like it, basically. Is it now required to justify support of someone? And if so, did I not do that rather clearly in my response? I thought your email was actually quite sensible on some points, but am I required to list what I liked/disliked about every single email written to this forum? I thought not. Besides, this forum would then no longer be a place for an exchange of opinions and ideas, but something closer akin to a really saccharine support group.

I think maybe you should refrain from assuming anger as motivation on my part. I may state something aggressively (which I didn't in my mail, actually) , but that doesn't mean that the source of the statement is anger. I can only be moved to a response if I care, and caring for me is something that doesn't usually hang out in the same neighborhood as anger. Perhaps I'm too forceful in my choice of words, but I'm fairly blunt most of the time. Perhaps I learned to be that instead of being invisible. ;-)

I think you might, in addition, want to ask yourself why you care that I supported Pooh in an unpopular (while misunderstood, in my opinion) postion. Is it because I alluded to your email name ? (Actually, it was a reference to a post previous to yours, but that's just nit-picking.) Were you offended? I didn't intend to offend, but if that's all it takes...well. Perhaps your attention to and concern with my response would have been less if I hadn't stated that I'm black... A number of people still get riled when a black woman sides with a white man, even if it is only in some silly forum. (My grandmother is probably turning over in her grave right this very moment.) I find it interesting that of everyone who wrote supporting Pooh, I am the only person you felt you needed to chastise (I can fairly see the shake of your head and the wag of your finger). Again, check your motives. That we may disagree with eachother is only right and good, that you seem to see it as your duty to give me a written spanking is just kinda...odd, don't you think?

Just to clarify, I never doubted (nor did I even mention) "that there are limited places in the world where Africans are treated with warmth, intelligence and kindness ". Generally (very) I'd have to agree with that statement. As a black woman living in Germany, I could pretty well claim to know quite a bit about such things, as a matter of fact. (I won't, though; I'm of the opinion that most people will be kind and warm-hearted given time and oppurtunity, and the last decade has proven me right more often than wrong.) If you had read my post properly you might have noticed that this is exactly the state of things that (to borrow your term) "ticks" me off. I just disagree with the blanket supposition that there are enclaves of wonderful, kind-hearted black folks who are just pining to commune with the next person of color that stumbles their way (statements like the former, they're called "sarcasm" not "anger"). I also won't allow myself to be misled into believing that everything negative that may occur in my life always has something to do with skin color, or that black people per se are free of --and immune to-- any sort of consciousness of worth based solely upon skin color.

Sorry for the length of this; (I should give up posting on forums until I learn to say something in thirty words or less.) but thanks for listening. -- Sandy

Who cares!! Just dance and try to forget the worries of the day. For all the beautiful ladies of different skin shades, just count your blessings you haven't danced with me and messed up your beautiful french manicure on your toes.

Ladies, you think you have problems just try dancing with me after I have had a few drinks. Forget counting on 1 or 2, I am just trying not to step on your lovely toes. Consider yourself lucky that you have not been asked by me because I will mess up your shoes, manicure, hair extensions and get all sweaty up on you! You'll be glad I didn't ask you to dance. ASK YOURSELF: Would you accept a dance with anyone who asks you to dance even if they are liquored up? Maybe not, but the point I am trying to get across that isn't it more important to just have fun at a salsa club than to bring all the blatant problems and baggage we face day to day?

My little oasis from all of the worries of the world is the salsa floor. I take a deep breath and release all those negative thoughts and just dance. I have asked it before in this feedback forum (in another topic)...is your glass half-empty or half full? Do you blame others for not having a good time while salsa dancing? More important, is the salsa scene really a good venue to make such claims of inequality or bias? Heck, if you ask me I see only beautiful people of all shapes, sizes and of course, colour in the scene.

Just dance. Let the troubles of the world melt away with the rhythm of the music. -- Arthur

First off I would like to set you straight on a few things. International style ballroom is practiced world wide;by black white and asian people. Infact my first dance instuctor was spanish(ballroom).Second "Latin"people are from Italy, France and Spain.Not Cuba or any other latin american countries. Oh by the way it's W*A*S*P not wasp.It is an acronym not a word.Also Iv'e noticed that there is a mix of people at dance club's.Not only "whites".The salsa being taught here in T.O.is largely L.A. style.There is a huge population of "latin american"people living there;they invented it evrybody dances it.I don't think some "W*A*S*P came up with the idea.So in closing I think you would be better off looking deep into yourself for the solution to your problem rather than blaming the first white person you see. -- John

Hello Rosita, I wish everyone not to think like this. Salsa is a fun dance to everyone. I myself am a Asian male and many times I have had rejection. I have had female partners saying thank you and ending the dance right in the middle of the song. I am very fed up with the general crowd in the clubs. I have not given up dancing rather instead now I just have my dance class friends who I dance with only now, it makes it easier to enjoy my nights out without rejection. To add I love black women in general, I have even been in a relationship with one and I loved every moment I had. Sad it ended and now I am kind of scared to try that again.

Best wishes and please I hope to see you out there. Ying.

Reply to Ying

Do not worry Ying, you will be happy again. You know what they say: "Once you go BLACK, you never go back!!!".

See you on the dance floor!

Morena :-))

I wasn't blaming anyone. I was just laying down the facts. Forgive me for my mistake with the WASP. But I hope when you used the word Spanish for a person, you meant someone who comes from Spain, not Latin American. I used the word Latin because many Latin American people use this word to refer to other
Latin American people. Perhaps the world Hispanic is better, who knows.

What everybody knows is that Ballroom dancing comes from England. Ballet comes from Europe, Chinese and Black people also dance this type of ballet. So what?

How did people decide on this International style? Why weren't the Brazilians consulted about International style of Samba dancing? The International Ballroom style of samba dancing strips of its Africaness. For some people, it is more classy, but not for me.

People should know that Ballroom Latin American dancing is not very Latin American. They should call it English style Latin American dancing. -- Sungmin

In LA, most of the most Latin Americans are Mexican Americans. Salsa is not a part of Mexican culture. Most Latin people in California learned to dance salsa in the United States. For example, the Vasquez brothers learned to dance in the United States not Guadalajara, Mexico. Most Latin people there have no idea of the music or the history of the dance. They didn't learn from their parents or grandparents who probably had no idea, but from Fred Astaire movies, Tin Tan or Ballroom dancing. With no Carribean dance professionals to tell them otherwise and an audience who have no idea what is good salsa dancing, they presume to have invented something new.

It is like those young new film makers who say developed a new film technique. But their knowledge of film only goes back 10 years and then only films only in English. They are often embarassed to find someone did it before and much better.

Only in California where people try to live cut off from culture and history, would people think they created a new style of salsa dancing. LA style is just Cuban style dancing mixed with ballroom dancing. The ballroom dancing comes into the play with hard spins, dips and tricks. The spins, cross body leads, the back and forth basic steps come from Cuba. Watch some videos of Cuban dancing and LA style dancing, LA style dancers don't do anything new except neck drops and they don't dance to the clave. LA style dancing fits perfectly into LA and what people perceive it is. LA is glitz, Hollywood manufactured pop culture with little substance.

New York salsa also comes from Cuban dancing. When Cubans went out dancing many many years in New York, they used to go out dressed up in suits and fancy clothes. So, they danced accordingly stiffly and with small movements. But people thought this was only way salsa was danced. Thus, New York salsa dancing was born. But is one of many ways salsa is danced in Cuba. -- Chincub

I would like to apologize to all the people who have been discussing this thread’s topic for going off-subject. I try not to do that when I suscribe to discussion forums but I feel something has to be said.

First off Chincub, I would like to apologize for the fact that I have never met you and that unfortunately I live in a different city but I would really love to tell you this to your face: Please, stop hijacking other people’s discussion forums! You seem to have a compulsive need to rant about your obsession with Cuban identity and the origins of salsa.

I know this is a discussion forum and that everyone is allowed to have their say. I also know that you have a valid opinion and a very particular point of view. Fine. But you should also realize that the world of dance does not revolve around the fact that Salsa may or may not be completely have its origins in a particular island. Whether the question is about men not asking a certain type of woman to dance, to who are people’s favourite instructors, to what style of salsa somebody is trying to learn, with you everything is about how Cuba’s sacred heritage is bastardized by “them”. Them being whoever you think is not Cuban enough.

You belittle everything that is not Cuban. This makes you sound like one of those recent immigrants who realize that being from Latin America gives them an automatic exotic/glamorous label and then find that people from other countries dance Salsa or speak Spanish better than them. Then they start ranting about how this or that is “just the north American version” of the “original” and how it is “commercial” or “not real” or (this is the best one) “not from the heart”. In fact this people are just jealous of other people’s accomplishments and pretend that only real “latinos” know how to dance salsa or understand music or teach dancing. That is a pathetic attitude to bring to a new country.

Some day Chincub, you will realize that opinions are like earwax, everyone has it but it is impolite to show it to people that are really not interested to see it. Therefore I propose that you ask Rose to open a discussion forum on “Chincub’s crusade to defend the cuban origin of salsa” then you could expound your historic theories, wax poetic about how everything that is good about latin music and dance comes from Cuba and discuss these matters with people that are really interested in bashing ballroom dancing, modern salsa music, LA style, the portorican contribution to salsa, latinos who learned salsa in north America, dips and spins and all other things you find abhorrent.

Chincub, salsa is a beautiful thing. It is also an experience, a feeling, an emotion and a culture. Cuba contributed greatly to it. If we could trace Salsa’s DNA, the Cuban maternity would be more than obvious. But in case you have been living under a rock for most of your life, Salsa is about mixing, creating, recycling and inventing. No one owns it. Not Cuba, not Puerto Rico, Colombia, Mexico, the USA, Canada, New Guinea or Zimbabwe. We, salseros everywhere own it. It is for all, by all and of all. Let all enjoy it. Can you imagine how many people have been turned off from the tosalsa forum, and maybe from Salsa itself because of all the bickering, name calling and underlying venom in some of these messages?

My best friend is married to a Cuban, a santiaguense, no less. When he first read your latest rant he shook his head looked at me and said; A ese ya se le olvido lo qu’es ser cubano (This one already forgot what it means to be Cuban), then he told me about how he and everyone he knew in Cuba was so happy that the rest of the world has taken Salsa and made its own. I am glad to know that most Cubans think like him. -- Francisco

I am happy that this topic has been brought back on track and I would like to say that I am both black and overweight and I dance untill I can dance no more each night that I go out.

I will agree that at first I felt ignored. I went to clubs for years and felt that no one would dance with me. At the time I questioned whether it may be my colour or my size. However I did not stop coming out. Sometimes I would be at a club for two hours and dance only one song...... but I kept coming and I continued to learn how to salsa.

Looking back I can see that the main reasons I was not asked to dance was because I did not dance well AND I was not very friendly.

I sat there feeling sad for myself as I had wasted another night out and it showed on my face.... .. boo hoo no one had asked me to dance.

But now I have made some associations through lessons and from being at the nightclubs by being assertive and asking others to dance. And ALSO never turning down a dance!!! Now I see quite a few friendly faces each time I go out.

I recommend picking out the dancers you know are instructors... they will never say no and they will help you to show off how well you can dance and others will want to dance with you.

I know that other women of colour share my view as last Sunday I counted 16 black women at Ba ba lus and they were all dancing ( well too I might add).