June
11, 2003
Cuban
Salsa in Toronto
Part 1 - Nov 2002 -
March 2003
Part 2 - April 2003 - Present
We
will post any constructive feedback
from our readers.
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Cuban
Salsa in Toronto We
will post any constructive feedback
from our readers. |
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The Feedback.... April 2, 2003 -- Cuban Salsa? Why is it not popular in Toronto? I've been reading this discussion with great interest from afar, and here's what I would say to Lou and DGT: Sometimes, we have to MAKE IT HAPPEN ourselves. Our little tiny group of Cuban-style dancers here in Seattle try to network and show up en-masse at clubs, so we have dance partners and also to show people how nice it can be. Our local instructor has put together a very hot performance troupe and have begun to start performances. I couldn't find anyone to practice with, so I rent my own practice space so we can polish what we know and learn more. I also started a web-site, which you are all free to visit: http://groups.msn.com/SeattleCubaPracticeGroup We also have one of our own who has found a small club willing to let him DJ Cuban-only music. All it takes is a little motivation and a little effort. Things have really picked up here over the past year, due to everyone's efforts, and they can in your neck of the woods as well. -- Seattle April 2, 2003 -- reply to DGT Hi DGT, Thanks for your reply. "Salsa" never existed in Cuba. What you are referring to is Son. If it is Son then it is not Salsa. This is true for many reasons. The Puertoricans completely changed the sound of the Son and gave it its own identity. It took on a new sound, a profoundly aggressive, faster and urban sounding style that was fused with American Jazz. By saying that "Salsa is Cuban music" you are essentially saying that it was music that originated in Cuba and was played by primarily Cuban musicians all the time. This is maybe true for Son but not Salsa. "Salsa" was created in New York and was played primarily by Puertoricans. It would be like saying that all British rock and roll music and bands of the 50s and 60s are really playing Afro-American (Blues) music. That the the Beatles and Rolling Stones are just playing recycled African-American music. Even though the roots of rock and roll are in the Blues, the sound of 1950s/60s British rock bands was totally different and unique. It had its own identity, just like Salsa. The Puertoricans have made an enourmous and valuable contribution to Tropical music. It is disrespectful and wrong to take away their rightful place in musical history by relegating their contributions to a mere folkloric genre. Salsa is so much more than "Son de la Loma". Lastly, let us not forget that "Cuban music" was born out of foreign influences: African, Spaniard, French, Dominican and Haitian. For example, the Son came from the Dominican Republic; the clave came from West Africa; and the Mambo came from Haiti. Those are just a few examples. -- Richard April 3, 2003 -- richard's e-mail to DGT Richard, Mambo came from Haiti? Do you need your head examined? Could you tell which sources you are using? Which book or article you could you suggest that says Mambo comes from Haiti? Everybody even the most ardent New York salsa supporters admit Son is from Cuba. You even yourself mentioned Son de La Loma. If your knowledge of Cuban music is only this song, I trully feel sorry for you. I have many Dominican friends. None of them mentioned that son is from Dominican Republic. Beny More, Arsenio Rodriguez incoporated American Jazz into Cuban music long before the 1970's in New York. Many Cuban songs were redone by New York musicians and not properly acknowledged. By the acknowledging the primary influence that Cubans musicians had in salsa, you are disrespecting them. Cuban
music has many influences from many countries. But the Latin music
that New York bands were playing before that "invention"
of salsa was basically Cuban music. They Salsa is certainly an important and innovative music. But it is a branch of Afro-Cuban music. Be-Bop revolutionized Jazz, but it is still Jazz. -- Chincub April 3, 2003 -- message to DGT DGT, I think you should put a personal ad on partner search on www.TOsalsa.com I don't think they'll display your e-mail in public. Put an personal ad. They don't accept ads from groups. In that way, people can contact you if they are interested in Cuban style salsa dancing. After Mana closed on Tuesdays. I have been in bitter need of Cuban salsa dancing. I went to Babalu when they had the celebration for the Salsa congress in Habana, Cuba. But they only let Billy Bryans only play a few salsa songs before they kicked him off. When a couple of Cubans or Cuban style students started dancing, they just stared at us if we were from a different planet. It is so sad the many "hardcore" salsa dancers are so closed minded about Casino and Cuban salsa dancing. The people who are most open-minded about Timba and Casino are Canadians outside the Salsa community who are tired of the old salsa music and same dancing. Lula Lounge is a great place. But it used to be empty, now there is a lot of dancers from Soles. Soles doesn't teach Casino Neither does City Dance Corps. Casino is more than group choreography based on LA or New Style salsa dancing. It is a style by itself. In normal Casino classes, rueda is a just a small part of Casino. A casino class should consist of teaching how to dance the spins in a Cuban way, Cuban footwork, Cuban cross body leads, in short Cuban styling. Most of these Casino "masters" in Soles would be lost in a Cuban rueda. Soles and City Dance Corps don't teach this way. I think they are giving false advertisement when they say they teach Casino. -- Mechy April 3, 2003 -- Re to Richard Hello Richard, It is crystal clear to me that we completely and
strongly disagree on this topic. Anyway, I guess you are puertorican,
that is nice, I do like your country, the people and the fact that
our countries are so similar. I am all for the salsa, wherever it
came from, but I have to tell you that it is really disrespectful
and wrong to take away the rightful place of cuban musicians and their
enourmous and valuable contribution to salsa music and dancing it
in all the musical history. April 3, 2003 -- Re to Lou Hi Lou, I am always glad to receive your answers, they are very
encouraging. I will love to join your group and to meet the cuban
guys and the instructor you get to hang out with. My idea is to prepare
a rueda de casino and presented everywhere in Toronto so people can
get familiar with our style, but I guess that will require willing
people and you sound very enthusiastic about it, I really wish there
were more like you. I will be at the Atlantis final competition next
saturday, and I am sure almost everybody will be there, and you too.
Anyway, I will appreciate if you tell me any information as how to
contact this group or this instructor to get in touch and see what
we can do for our cuban style here in Toronto. I've been to Lula and
I've seen and danced with D'talle, maybe we've seen each other there,
who knows. I do like the band and had a great time there. But my biggest
concern is about the way of dancing and not with the music, cause
I can get really frustrated when I have to dance alone the whole night,
cause I don't get alone with the way of dancing here. April 4, 2003 -- dancing in Toronto <<<<<<<I
don't know, but that sounds like if we wouldn't have made son (and
also salsa) you would probably be dancing right now an indian dance
around the fire>>>>>>> As for your "other" simplistic comment in which you claimed we would "probably" still be dancing some "Indian dance" around a fire? Well, That just shows just how little you really know about how music and dance dude. The island has other musical genres that are largely not indigenous --and beleive it or not, they have evolved. Much like it did for Cubans. -- BU April 4, 2003 -- Reply to Chincub (Why is Cuban Salsa....) Chincub, My comments about Haiti and the Dominican Republic were to illustrate that: 1) the roots of the Mambo are in Haitian Voodoo Rituals and 2) the Son was brought to Cuba by freed Dominican slaves. We already know that the Clave is not Cuban, it is West African. Most
of Cuban dances are primarily African-based and inspired. The roots
of the Danzon are based in France. These are just a few examples. Salsa music may have its roots in Son but it is historically wrong to relegate it as merely "Cuban music". Salsa is a NY Puertorican creation. There were also African-Americans, Jewish-Americans and other non-Cuban latinos that played a significant role in the development of this music. Why is it difficult for you, and others in this forum, to understand that Salsa is a concept? Jazz is a concept, so is Boogaloo. Even Timba is considered a musical approach. As Juan Formell said, it is music that stands at the crossroads between Salsa and Son. Formell knows the distinction between the two. If it is Son then it is NOT Salsa, pure and simple. Blues is a concept, it incorporates Jazz, Country and Gospel music. Furthermore, the Blues is considered to be the roots of Rock music, yet no one goes around saying that all bands that play rock and roll are really playing blues music or music of African-American slaves. Hip-Hop is a concept. One of the primary roots of this music was in Roasters movement of Jamaica. Puertoricans also played an enormous role in developing Hip-Hop - this was way before "Orishas" - the Nuyorican Miguel Pinero is seen as one of the forefathers of Rap/Hip-Hop. By the time Hip-Hop reached Cuba, it was "zapato viejo" in New York. Richard "Un Verano En Nueva York" - El Gran Combo PS - Yes, I know more songs than "Son de la loma". My point was to illustrate how much more advanced Salsa music is compared to Son. April 4, 2003 -- Reply to DGT - (Why is Cuban Salsa....) Hi DGT, I made the point to list the foreign influences in Cuban music to illustrate to you (and others) that Africans, Dominicans, Haitians, Frenchmen and Spaniards have a valid claim of ownership over "Cuban music". You do the exact same thing when say that Salsa is "Cuban music": you are not recognizing the music as its own distinct form, instead you erroneously claim that Salsa belongs to Cuba. Just because the Son is a primary influence in Salsa that does not automatically mean it is "Cuban music". The reason for this is that the Son took on a new identity in NY, it was transformed into a musical concept. Other non-Cuban influences were fused into Salsa, that is why it ceases to be "Cuban music". The Son lost its indigenous, folkoric attributes and took an other musical influences thus creating a new definitive sound (thanks to the Puertoricans). Your argument about Indian music is amusing. Spanish controlled Cuba completely eliminated the Indians in that area by working them to death and through outright genocide - that is why they imported African slaves. If it were not for the Africanos, Cubanos would of been dancing to Flamenco and Paso Doble. By the way, the term "Cuban music" is too broad, it could mean anything. You need to specify what exact musical genre you are referring to. For example, if I were to invoke the term "American music" what comes to your mind? Country? Jazz? Gospel? Rock? Blues? Swing? Hip-Hop/Rap? Heavy Metal? Top 40 Pop music? Folk Music? Hardcore? If a Swedish band plays Jazz are they really just playing "American music" or do we say they play Jazz? What about a Chinese Swing band? Are they just really playing "American music"? What about Mongolian heavy metal bands? Is it really "American music"? -- Richard April 4, 2003 -- cuban salsa in Toronto Just for the record, in regards to the party at Ba'Ba'Lu's for the Salsa Congress in Havana, I was not 'kicked off' the dj booth. I had been asked to play an hour or so of timba music, which is what I did. It was fun. cheers, Billy Bryans April 5, 2003 -- to Richard Richard, Can you provide any documentation for sources? Any book? Any article? Anything? Because I can go to any library or bookstore anywhere in the world and find any book on Latin music that will say Son and Mambo are from Cuba. You know almost all people who know something about Latin music will say these music forms come from Cuba. How did you become such a genius in going against the grain of such popular thinking? Could we see some evidence of your ground breaking work in Latin music? Then you are probably going to say just listen to the music. Oh, please. I need something concrete. I didn't know Puerto Ricans invented Hip-Hop too, wow. Cuban music of course has many influences from Europe and Africa. However, these influences come through Cuba to New York. Maybe the roots of the clave came from Africa. But the clave that was used in New York was Cuban influenced clave. A Cubanized African clave. So, are you saying that the African clave went to New York straight from Africa? Then Mambo went straight from Haiti to New York (They must have had to translate a lot). Who taught the Puerto Ricans Latin music in New York? Cubans. Maybe these Puerto Ricans went on to invent a totally new kind of music. But what were New York Latin bands playing before the "invention" of salsa? They were playing mambo, chachacha, son, pachanga based on Cuban sheet music. These are all types of Cuban music. They were not playing plena or bomba.Only when the embargo came along and stopped the flow of new Cuban sheet music to New York, then the Puerto Ricans got inventive. I know I will never convince you. And probably you will never me. But let's get real. When you read your sources, don't just look for facts that suit your argument and take them out of context -- Chincub April 6, 2003 -- Re to Richard Hi Richard,
PLEASE, PEOPLE THIS MAN IS IN URGENT NEED OF A DOCTOR!!!! YOU AND THE PUERTORICANS OF NEW YORK CALL SALSA A CONCEPT, CAUSE YOU CAN'T CLAIM IS YOURS. I DON'T CLAIM THAT CUBA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIP-HOP, SO THIS WAS AN USELES COMMENT. ANYWAY, IT IS SO NICE OF YOU TO ALLOW ME AND THE REST OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS FORUM TO KNOW THAT YOU PUERTORICANS OF NEW YORK ARE THE CREATORS OR AT LEAST SOMEHOW INVOLVED IN ALL THE MUSICAL GENRES OF THE WORLD!!!!!!!!! EVEN POLKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE CLAVE CUBANA IS KNOWN ALL OVER THE WORLD, IT WAS INDEED CREATED BY THE AFRICAN SLAVES BROGHT TO CUBA, BUT AGAIN IT WAS CREATED IN CUBA, NOT IN AFRICA, SO THEY HAVE NO VALID CLAIM OVER IT. THANKS FOR THE HISTORY LESSON, BUT THERE WAS NO NEED FOR THAT. ANYWAY, FOR YOUR INFORMATION I DO STIL DANCE FLAMENCO AND PASO DOBLE IF I HAVE TO, BECAUSE I DO NOT RENEGATE MY ROOTS. FINALLY, I DO STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU TO GO AND SEE A SHRINK HONEY, BEFORE IS TOO LATE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CHAO, DGT April 6, 2003 -- RE TO BU HELLO BU, THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE, BUT I AM NOT A DUDE, DUDE I DON'T REALLY THINK YOU KNOW ME THAT WELL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT MY KNOWLEDGE OF MUSIC AND DANCING ARE, BUT I GUESS YOU MADE THAT COMMENT CAUSE YOUR NARROW MIND COULDN'T REALIZED THAT IT WAS JUST AN EXAMPLE OR, DO YOU WANTED ME TO NAME ALL THE PUERTORICANS MUSICAL GENRES IN MY COMMENT? NO WAY JOSE.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ANYWAY, BYE DGT April 6, 2003 -- A reply to Richard Dear Richard, although I agree with you for the most part about your arguments about the creation of salsa -- that it is a genre incorporating many different musical genres from different places -- I do not think that you give enough credit to the Cuban influence, nor do I believe in some of your historical claims. First, there is no historical agreement on the exact origins of son. Saying that it came from freed Dominican slaves is an unsubstantiated statement, to say the least. In general, however, historians locate the son's origins to the the eastern provinces of Cuba. Because of widescale demographic displacement of Cubans in the early years of the 20th century, it began to show up in working class barrios of Havana, and eventually was spread throughout Cuba and elsewhere in the 20s with the advent of the radio. Although a well known Cuban singer, Teodora Gines, was mentioned as having performed sones in Santiago in the 16th century, modern son is generally regarded as tracing its roots to the 18th or perhaps 19th century. See Leon, Orovio, or Moore. Secondly, it is important to make the distinction between the terms "African-derived" and "African". They are not the same thing. I am not saying that you use the two interchangeably, but it is important to understand the difference. The clave as an instrument may be African, but the clave also refers to the two-measure pattern found in almost all Cuban music, and is clearly the foundation in salsa as well. In regards to the term "Cuban music," the term, in general, refers to son, timba(modern cuban "salsa"), etc. It does not mean paso dobles, waltzs, fox trots, or tangos, all of which European and consumed by the Cuban middle-class and elite before the 20's and 30's. Son was highly marginalized before this time. It was only because of a national backlash against the pro-US Machado regime and an overall new-world interest in African diasporic popular culture, along with the growth of the radio, that made son the basis for what Cuban music is identified as today. Lastly, the vast majority of indigenous Cubans -- or indigenous Carribean peoples, for that matter -- died as a result of disease, not genocide. I agree with a lot of the points that you make, do not get me wrong. Salsa, as we know it, is clearly a 60s and 70s genre coming out of New York, Puerto Rico, Colombia, and other places. In that respect, saying that Salsa is Cuban is false and does not give credit to all of those who have contributed to making it what it is today. That being said, son, which clearly gives the base to Salsa dancing music, is Cuban -- not African, not Dominican -- but Cuban. Afrocuban, to be exact. For example, the montuno section of son is found in many West African musical genres. However, the lyrics are generally in Spanish, and they often follow European-derived poetic forms as well, such as the decima and copla. -- Brian April 6, 2003 -- A reply to DGT <<<<<<THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE, BUT I AM NOT A DUDE, DUDE>>>> Well, thanks for you responding to my "response", Dudette??? <<<I DON'T REALLY THINK YOU KNOW ME THAT WELL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT MY KNOWLEDGE OF MUSIC AND DANCING ARE, BUT I GUESS YOU MADE THAT COMMENT CAUSE YOUR NARROW MIND COULDN'T REALIZED THAT IT WAS JUST AN EXAMPLE...>>>>>>>> AHHH...that explains your simplistic comments D, Thanks **I think** YOu see, simple narrow-minded individuals (like myself) have the bad habit of assuming that people like yourself know what you are talking about. But thanks for clarifying the confusion for me...for a moment there I was under the impression you knew not what you were talking about --silly me! BTW...what was your example? <<<<< DO YOU WANTED ME TO NAME ALL THE PUERTORICANS MUSICAL GENRES IN MY COMMENT? NO WAY JOSE.!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>>>> HHHMMMMM, for one thing, I'm not Jose. But my friends call me Ugly. Could you please be so nice as to name ONE Puerto Rican folk dance were we "dance around an open flame", DGT? I haven't read about that in any of my journals or books. Do we, by any chance, chuck spears while we are at it? Do we go clockwise or counter-clockwise? Do we do it on the "one" or the "two"? PLease write back D...tata. -- BU April 7, 2003 -- Richard, If Son was brought to Cuba by slaves from the Dominican Rep., how come Salsa is not mainstream dance in the Dominican ? Is that why they left the Dominican Rep ? because dominican people decided merengue was more fun to dance to and kicked out those who were against it ? -- Jose April 7, 2003 -- reply to Chincub Chincub, One of the sources for the Haitian influence is a book by the well-known and respected ethnomusicologist, Peter Manuel. The book is called "Caribbean Currents: From Rumba to Reggae." Mambo is an instrinsic component of the Haitian Voodoo priesthood and rituals. In the mid 17th century, Haiti underwent a revolution. Many French colonists and their slaves escaped to Cuba bringing with them their musical, religious and cultural customs and traditions. These traditions significantly influenced and provided the foundation for certain genres of Cuban music such as Danzon and Mambo. For the source on the Son being brought to Cuba by freed Dominican slaves - see "Music in Cuba" (2001) (University of Minnesota Press) by the late Cuban pianist and musicologist, Alejo Carpentier. Here is a direct quote from page 82: "In a "Report on the Residents of Havana and Guanabacoa", written in 1582, there is no mention of any resident being a musician. On the other hand, in Santiago de Cuba there was a small orchestra composed of two flautists, a bass viol player named Pascual de Ochoa from Seville, and two free black Dominican women from Santiago de los Cabelleros, two sisters, Micaela and Teodora Gines. This orchestra, put together for parties and celebrations, also played in the churches." Teodora Gines was known as Ma'Teodora. In Santiago she was famous for her songs. One of her songs from the 16th century managed to survive: "Son de la Ma Teodora". Teodora was seen as a considerable influence on the musical formation of Cuba at that time. Chincub, I am glad I had the opportunity to educate you on this topic. I recommend you go to your nearest library and start learning about the roots of Cuban music. It is rather ironic that I, being Puertorican, gave you a history lesson on Cuban music. Your welcome. -- Richard April 10, 2003 -- reply to DGT DGT, Thanks for your reply. Your comments further prove to me how much of a clown you are. Have you considered a job with the circus? Your comments in this forum will no doubt have an effect on anybody wanting to work with you on your Cuban dance group. Good luck finding people, you'll need it. As a Puertorican, I never let nationalism get in the way with historical facts. I always acknowledge the fact that Son is the primary influence in Cuba. But to call Salsa Cuban music is INSULTING to Puertoricans. It is historical revisionism that completely negates the 35 years that Puertoricans have been spent creating, developing and transforming this music. DGT, if you want to continue this discussion I suggest you get a brain and maybe some maturity. -- Richard April 10, 2003 -- reply to Jose Hi Jose, I would recommend you have a look at Alego Carpentier's "Music in Cuba" for info on the freed Dominican slaves who brought Son to Cuba. Also, listen to the CD put out by Putumayo on music from the Dominican Republic for a taste of Sones a lo Dominicano. -- Richard April 11, 2003 -- To DGT (Why is Cuban Salsa not Popular) DGT you had started a good initiative. Much more useful than engaging yourself in a doomed attempt to brake a state of denial contagiously spread in a mass-culture society. There is a small Cuban group, which includes Cubans and people who appreciate Cuban music and dance. If you don't know where the hangouts are I will be happy to tell you. There ARE better things to do than argue about the roots of salsa in a discussion topic about why is Cuban Salsa not popular. DGT, as I am sure you have noticed already, no matter what the discussion topic is there will always be someone who will find a way to tell you how Cuba has barely anything to do with Salsa music. They would bring to you the fact that very, very few people dance Casino in Toronto, as a prove to you that any other style is better than Cuban. The meaning of the word ‘popular’ has shifted dramatically and nowadays it can even be interpreted as authentic and better. This new meaning has placed the cheeseburger franchises on top of the North-American cousin experience and Bare Naked Ladies on top of the music charts. DGT, if you have time and enjoy the insulting and personal comments some people are directing to you, by all means, stay in touch with them. You would be in for a long, long, ride. These guys have migrated from one discussion topic to another and for years have been shouting at people asking for acknowledgment of their identity. You have brought to them a new, 'fresh' meaning of their life. If you want to reinforce the anger and provoke the consequences of a severe identity crisis keep throwing at them the name Cuba. You could be discussing the long Canadian winter with some people on this website and they will find a way to switch the topic to the roots of Salsa and interpret any available research materials in a way, which helps them, feed their inferiority issues. Friendly advise: Don’t waste your time -- Lou April 12, 2003 -- Re to Richard Hello Richard,
Calling me clown only shows how immature YOU ARE, but I still wish
you luck trying to find friend with that attitude. If you look back
to my first e-mail you will see that I am not trying to find anybody
to work with, I want to get together with cubans who are willing to
have fun, cause that's what music and dance are to us. When you listen
to a puertorican salsa song you know it is yours, from your country,
what I hear is the Cuban clave on it and dance to it. It is a matter
of appreciation and that has nothing to do with nationalism. April 14, 2003 -- Re to Lou Hello Lou, Thank you so much for your advice, that has always been my true inttention, just to get together with people that I can dance with. So PLEASE if you would be so nice as to tell me where the hangouts of cuban people are so I can go there and meet them, that will be great. I completely agree with you on everything, and I do hate the insults or comments which I consider disrespectful and out of place, cause there's no need for that when we are just talking about something we all like and should enjoy. I will love if these people would stop addressing to me as I no longer have anything to tell them, if they can't dance casino or rueda de casino they have nothing to offer me and the least with such manners. Once again thank you very much for your words and I will be waiting for the names of the places I can go to dance casino. Bye DGT April 15, 2003 -- To DGT (Why is Cuban salsa not popular) Hi DGT, This coming Thursday night at Lula Lounge - (1585 Dundas St. West., (416) 588-0307): Thursday
Night April 17th/2003, Lula Lounge and Picante Xpress Saturday night at Lula again there would be quite a few Cubans. Ana Machado is currently teaching a leason at 9:00 p.m. She is from Cuba also but the style she is teaching as adapted somewhat to what in Toronto is referred to as Salsa. On Sunday sometimes you can see some of the new in town "all-girls" band "D'Talle" at Babalu night club dancing and having fun. Not too many dancers for them but they seem to be doing O.K. by themselves. Monday night there used to be a lot of Cubans hanging-out the the Manulife Panorama night club with DJ Alex who is also Cuban, but I am not sure if this is still going on as the organizer of that initiative (Juan Carlos - probably the best Cuban dancer in Town) has withdrawn... At all these places you will find some Cubans. Once you get to Lula ask them or get their program and find out when the all-girls Cuban band will be playing next. Hope this helps. At least it'll get you started. -- Lou April 15, 2003 -- For DGT DGT, I am in Lou's casino class. At least, I think it is him. We used to go Mana every Tuesday because Billy Byrans played Timba all night long. Now we can go to Lula Lounge on Saturday and some of us go to Babalu on Sunday (but no Timba). I think everyone is going to Lula Lounge on Thursday to celebrate the Salsa Congress in Cuba. Friday is a holiday, I think. I think most in our group would like to meet you, especially the guys since we don't get much opportunities to dance with Cuban women. I can get you in touch with our teacher. You can find me in the partner search in this website TOsalsa. I am a male (man) under the name Sung Min. I can't think of another way you can reach us. April 15, 2003 -- Cuban salsa in Toronto There is not only "Son De La Loma", there a lot of Cuban music from the 50s that the puertorricans have been playing and calling them salsa, even changing the name of the composer. For example, "Fuego a La Jicotea" it`s a song written by the Cuban composer, in the 50s, Rosendo Ruiz; and you can see how the puertorrican Rafael Cortijo, in the 70s, played the same old cuban son "Fuego a la Jicotea" and claimed to be the composer. Now, the same song in the 50s was son, but in the 70s was called salsa. The same happens when Tipica 73 started playing in New York the old cuban son that had been already played in Cuba by Aragon "MANUELA NO ME PELEA". As for the Claves, and the bongoes, they are Cubans. In Africa they don`t even know what is the clave. If they were African you would have seen that instrument in the folckloric music of some other countries were the slaves also came -- Karioca April 29, 2003 -- Why Cuban music is not popular in toronto First of all get tour facts right. "Fuego a la Jicotea" the re make was done by Marvin Santiago not Rafael Cortijo. And your reasoning on why the clave comes from Cuba & not Africa is not convincing. Just because the clave was not played in other countries where African slaves were brought to, doesn't mean a thing. In fact it's simple knowledge. Not all Africans had the same culture in fact africa is such a large continent.that various regions had their own type of music. The majority that were sent to Cuba were from West Africa & they had the clave. So all the regions of the Carribean did not all had africans from West Africa. -Lapiz May 14, 2003 -- Cuban Salsa in Toronto Hi there. I find this subject extemely interesting. Sorry if this post isn't directly related to Toronto - more U.K. Here we only dance Cuban or New York style. At least that's how its categorised. Maybe there are variations from other styles in these two categories, but in general Salsa is advertised as mainly Cuban or NY here. Not sure how it is in Toronto or the rest of the world and would love people to post and tell me how it is, but in general here are the main differences in the styles in the U.K. My apologies if any of this information is incorrect. As far as I can make out, the ratio of Cuban to NY style Salsa schools are: 40% Cuban 60% New York The main
reasons why New York style is more popular as far as I can gather
are: [This part includes my humble opinions. :0)] Cuban instructors commonly say that if you learn Cuban style first it is easier to pick up NY style. In the U.K. this seems to be true (mainly because of the tapping requirement), as those that do not learn how to tap find it difficult to pick up later and they do not end up doing so. But then, those that tap find the tap difficult to drop also. :0) Cuban instructors also say that the Cuban style looks more elegant than N.Y. style because of the tap. I think this depends heavily on the moves the dancers are making at the time, but certainly where moves are similar, the tap does look more elegant. NY instructors say that Cuban instructors tap too often, that the tap only looks good in some moves and that some of the couple moves when dancing to a fast track does not give you time to tap. I'm not sure I agree with that statement as the music has to be speeded up like a rave tune for that to be applicable. :0) Still, there's no denying the fact that if someone is dancing only on 3 out of the 4 beats he can probably dance to a faster track. A friend of mine commented on how he liked Cuban style because its a 'closer' dance. I agree with that, but I also think that some of the NY Style dancing, for example holding hands at more of a distance whilst doing the mamba look equally good and open up an extra set of moves that you could lead a lady into that you couldn't with the constant up close Cuban style. However, and this is my personal opinion, some of the more distant dancing moves I don't think look quite so nice, like the SuzyQ (sp?). One final note. I think the original poster said that Cuban dancers are more rough with their partners. This I believe to definately be true. I don't notice this myself, but certainly the dancers I know, some have made the same comment. Cheers, Kalten~!!! May 16, 2003 -- Why Cuban Salsa is not Popular...General responce. From what I've seen over the last few years with the growth of the salsa scene in toronto, the emphasis has been on technique and "style" Unfortunately the style of choice in this city (New York/ LA) tends to be easy to get away with not moving your BODY at all. Tons of moves can be performed with tons with fancy footwork but there is no need to MOVE your body. I cannot take anything away from all of the talented dancers in this city. Well maybe...Cuban Salsa has a different percussion and it looks silly if you dance "Fancy" to it. It's music that you MUST move your body to and it would seem that most people simply cannot do it. You cannot teach 1.2.1.2. rythmically on how to accentuate your body movements or "feel" the rythm. I've seen Bong Trion (Last name spelling?) dance cuban with the lead singer from Da Talli at LuLu (The female cuban band). The hairs on the back of my neck stood up. He really shows that he put effort into "Felling" the rythm and I have not ever seen any other "elite" dancer match him yet. Bottom line? Cuban beats are hard to DANCE to....not Cross Body to. Hey professionals... stop moving your ankles and try moving your butts. I'm sure you will still be masters at that too so don't worry. Go Bong! and Angus! -- Darryl May 21, 2003 -- para bailar I would
first of all say hello to everyone here at tosalsa.com. June 11, 2003 -- cuban salsa in Toronto Well, I don't really know why everybody nowadays prefers L.A Salsa, or N.y Style, but it's true thet this situation must change, because cuban salsa is little by little dissapearing... at least here in Spain, where everyone learns L.A salsa in every dancing school, and I think we should come back to cuban style, which is much more beautiful and traditional... Kisses from Spain to Toronto. June 11, 2003 -- response to DGT DGT, I think
most of my Latin friends don't go to Latin clubs anymore. Most Colombians
don't go to Latin clubs because they don't put the music they like.
People think here that all Colombian music is Sonora Carruseles. They
do not like the way people dance here. Dancing is supposed to be about
having fun and enjoying the music. You can dance any way you want
to salsa music, it is not my business. but it becomes a little frustating
when people are always hitting and stepping on you in nightclubs.
And when you don't do these million spins and acrobatics, they don't
think you can dance.
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