I think that cuban music and dancing is not that popular in Toronto but it is very popular all over Europe and all over South America, I also thik that Toronto has a strong influence from N.Y because we are neighbors and L.A because we are still close to L.A, now Cuba is not that far only five hours away but there are not that many cubans here like Miami for example, and the kind of music that is played at clubs doesn't really atraked cuban people to come out that often. -- Vladimir

Maria, This is a good question I've been pondering for some time. Being new to this style puts me in a good position to attempt an answer.

Here's my attempt:

Most people I talk to think Salsa IS Cuban. They are surprised to find out how different the music and dancing actually is; that is, if they ever DO find someone who can describe or show it to them. So it's not more popular because people don't know any better. Even a lot of people who have been dancing salsa for quite some time do not really know anything about cuban dancing.

We are part of the culture we live in. If we are surrounded by one style, and that is what we see, that is what we accept as the norm. Anything else seems foreign.

A lot of Cubans do not like the music being played in the clubs and keep a low profile, so people rarely see cuban-style dance. It is a real treat to see native Cubans doing justice to the music: so raw, natural, and joyful. Sometimes very primitive. Sometimes very lyrical. Usually it is new students who are awkward and not the best advertisement. (like me!) Their heart is in the right place, but they are missing some of the vocabulary. Because there is soooo much to learn.

Younger Cubans are dancing on the "1" to Timba, adding in salsa and hip-hop, so the differences are getting harder and harder to identify.

Switching from an LA-style lead (or any other style, for that matter) to a cuban-style lead can be a difficult transition. If you've been dancing on the beat for an hour and then you find yourself with someone dancing on clave, with contra-body rhythms, it can feel very jarring if you've been going forward and back all night. (It's just as strange to suddenly find yourself doing Cumbia with a Colombian when you're totally unfamiliar with it.) Cubans have no problem dancing on 1, a lot of them just prefer on clave because it is groovier. The inverse is not true, however, and most LA or NY style have a tough time doing cuban basics.

As a follow who dances LA style, you expect to place your foot in a new position with every quick-quick-slow beat. When you dance cuban-style with someone, all of a sudden there are extra beats that you don't know what to do with because the moves work with and acknowledge the clave. Until you've been schooled on what to do with those pauses, it can be a little disconcerting. A lot of times you keep moving anyway, in the manner you're used to, and find yourself way ahead of the lead and having to stop dancing to get in sync again. After you've taken some lessons, you learn to LOVE those pauses. That's where you get to play - swirl your hips, dip coyly, shimmy your shoulders, or where there's the most tension between partners.

A prime example of this is "Dile que no," otherwise known as the "cross-body lead." The cuban-style has a pause right in the middle. And it feels NICE and looks MUCH BETTER. And unlike the "cross-body" it takes quite a while to get it right. But to the uninitiated, those pauses just seem like your lead is playing some cruel trick on you, or you question whether his timing is way off. Actually, his timing is probably excellent. It's probably more that you fight against contra-body rhythm and have not become ONE with the music, and that's what's critical to dancing cuban-style. If everyone got a warm-up of contra-body basic prior to a night of dancing, I bet a lot of people would warm up to it.

With LA and NY style, your body needs to stay really erect if you are going to maintain your balance moving forward and back. That's not necessary with cuban-style, since contra-body is more stable. With its African roots, you are more in a modified sitting position, always loose and ready to shake your hips & torso. So, if you've been dancing LA you tend to be in a rigid frame and again, it feels strange to dance with someone doing cuban-style, who is leaning forward a little.

I remember taking ballet as a child and having to walk the length of the studio, to the beat. Being able to walk to the beat is also important when you are a cuban-style follow. You don't have to do that in LA style, because you're pretty much stationary all night long. If a cuban lead does a solo turn and you are forced to walk around him, the LA-style follow knows instinctively what's expected of her, but finds it hard to do well and she's not used to it.

To walk and dance in syncopation with the music, to dance on clave, you have to develop (or be born immersed in) an innate and complex sense of timing. I think cuban leads seem rough to you because they are trying to inculcate you to the rhythms. In other words, they're trying to help. When actually, listening to Cuban music 10 hours a day is what it takes. Native Cuban men are actually VERY SUBTLE leads, and it is the female's responsibility to represent the rhythms, which allows him more freedom to strut or construct sequences of moves. Either that, or they are just learning Cuban-style, and the tendency is for leads and follows to OVER-emphasize the timing and stomp, so they don't lose it. That goes away as they get better and contra-body rhythms become second-nature.

After taking some lessons, I think another reason cuban-style dancing is not as popular is because it takes so much time to get good. LA and NY style, being flashier, you are rewarded with results quicker. You have a real sense of accomplishment when you've mastered a double pirouette, or remembered a long sequence of footwork, etc. You are practicing a recorded step with a known outcome. It seems more performance-based to me. But with Cuban-style, you are interpreting the music more on a more personal level. A real accomplishment might be adding a lazy flick of the wrist at just-the-right-moment, or rolling one shoulder just when the music tells you to. Doesn't sound like much, but that's what makes the dancing so subtle and expressive. I liked and agreed with you when you talked about it being many-layered.

My instructor REALLY CARES that you are not just getting the mechanics, but are REALLY GETTING IT in every way. So some people take classes with results in mind and walk away dis-interested because they had to spend a half hour doing the basic, not understanding that the foundations they are trying to teach are more about making your body an instrument of music that you play with every breath you take.

Another reason cuban-style might not be as popular is because there are so many sub-genres of dance and music that it is over-whelming. It is like learning the Hindu pantheon of Gods & Goddesses. You don't just learn a series of steps. You need-to/should also learn about all of the types of Cuban music, the structure of the music, the makeup of the orchestration, and the dance, history, and culture associated with each. But that, to me, is the fun part about the whole thing.

The other thing is that some people teaching cuban-style really shouldn't be. It's just another part of their repetoire, and they teach it in the same spirit they teach LA style or NY style. Stripped of its culture and understanding of the musical traditions, cuban-style just becomes a pale cousin to the more vigorous LA or NY styles.

In some ways, the cubans I have met do not have an identity crisis or feel the need for public solidarity as much as other ethnic groups do. They're very secure, confident people. They dance often as part of their daily life, so I don't think they feel the need to go out and make a bigger presence at clubs or try and promote their style. However, globalization has had its effects on Cuba and what was once host to one of the most culturally rich, diverse and harmonious populations is now losing some of its unique culture. This threat is inspiring some cubans to come out of the woodwork and pass on their arts before they die out.

One of the ways to accomplish this is to tap into popular culture, the way they always have and always will. I think casino rueda is one such phenomenon that will become increasingly popular and aid immensely in introducing cuban-style dancing to many new communities, as well as aiding in preserving those more obscure dancing traditions that bore them. It's also really fun. It's fast, danced on 1, and salsa people love it as well as traditional cuban-style dancers.

I also believe that all things have a tendancy to come full circle: If you look at the newer developments in dance and music, in many ways they resemble and borrow from what has been done historically. Take break-dancing. Some of those moves bear a distinct resemblance to Afro-cuban Rhumba. If people study the roots of their dancing, it can only enhance their present dancing and give them fodder for new directions. Perhaps if the salsa community looked at cuban-style dancing, in all its many iterations, for its dancing roots and heritage, they would better appreciate what they are doing for fun, socializing, and exercise. It's also an excellent resource to tap to increase their repetoire, as much of what is salsa today is derivative of cuban forms and there are enough commonalities that the debate of one style versus another style is rather silly in that light: they inform one another. Cuban dancing is also more than casino and pretzels: the depth and breadth of contributing moves is amazingly rich, just like the music. Salsa can learn a lot studying its ancestors.

Forums like this, if kept positive, are also a great way to introduce people to Cuban-style dancing. -- Seattle

My name is Lou and with this letter I would like to share my experience in deciding which Salsa dancing style fits better the way I feel the music. Everything I wrote is without prejudice and it simply represents yet another point of view. I am not trying to tell anyone how they should dance, which style is better or what Salsa is all about.

The letter is about all of the following: Why is Cuban style not popular in Toronto? Ballroom vs. Salsa ? North-American vs. Cuban style ? If you try to "feel' rather than read it you may even enjoy it.

My determination to learn how to dance Salsa, was inspired first when I saw a Tango-show in Buenos Aires, Argentina. I had seen Tango on TV before but the 3 couples dancing on the square in San Telmo market in B.A. I will never forget.

It's a long story how I made the parallel between Tango and Salsa. Those of you who have the patience and time to finish the whole letter would probably understand.

Anyway, I ended up enrolling myself in one of the most recognized Salsa schools in Toronto as a beginner. We started with the mambo step, counting 1,2,3 pause 5,6,7. back and forth. you know it. I religiously attended every single class, took many private lessons, learning how to do double turns, syncopated turns and months later I was taking my 3rd or 4th advance level class mastering neck-drops, advanced dips styling, shine and smooth lead. As if the school I was going to in Toronto wasn't enough, I was taking classes with 2 - 3 other Salsa schools in town. Here I would like to point out that not once in my experience with the schools in Toronto I heard the term clave, what its functions was, what it looked like or sounds like. Every beginner's lesson, without exception, started with the 'basic steps' without music and counting 1,2,3.5,6,7

It was than, over a year after I was comfortable dancing with most accomplished female dancers in Toronto, without boring them to death, someone suggested that a small group of people was going down to Havana on a dedicated Salsa trip. So I joined them. A local recognized instructor, his dance group and a live band were at our disposal four hours every day. Cuban dancer from the group was assigned to each one of our group individually. We were not allowed to dance with each other. During the first lesson they started talking about strange things such as clave, son, dancing contra-tiempo and a-tiempo. The first lessons we had were about the music... not a single step. Then we started moving our shoulders to the rhythm, to the side forward and back and than gradually including the remaining parts of our bodies. All the instructors kept saying to us was "relax" (which sounded like relaaa), move your body "like this" and listen to the clave. Every day we would start with this type exercise as a warm up and would move on to casino and casino rueda. It was really frustrating trying to look natural, relaxed and having fun as the Cubans did. Every day, after the 4 hours class, we would take a quick shower have a bite and, as part of the program, we would go out for the night to a night club, together with the Cuban dancers. All clubs were chosen where there would be a live band. We were very lucky to be able to see live NG La Banda, Issac Delgado, Manolito y Su Trabuco and Irakere. One day we were invited to watch performance by our instructors in Casa de la Musica. Turned out they were one of the renowned dance groups based in Havana. If you are interested check out this link http://www.afrocubaweb.com/banrrarra.htm Dear readers, believe me these guys can also spin. if they wanted to. And yes their performance was choreographed for months and months. I can say I've seen Cuban professional dancers dancing what we collectively call Salsa here. We took 'Cha-cha-cha' and Mambo. Needless to say it had nothing to do with what I've been thought here in Toronto.

Well, that was it for me. That experience made me realize what I was looking for. I knew I had been missing something. It just wasn't feeling right. The music and the way I was dancing. Seeing the way these people dance on the streets, in the clubs and everywhere there was even a remote wave of music made me feel like I had been dancing rock and roll, or swing or.I don't know. With all the dips, advanced and syncopated turns I had learned in Toronto's salsa schools, I just couldn't express what I felt when I was listening to this music. I had to see the old couples in Havana and Santiago, dancing son 'chic-to-chic' (the music to which here in Toronto we often dance cha-cha or even bachata) and feel what passion expressed through dancing was without a single turn or a spin. I had to see the young aggressive dancing machines in Havana to realize what improvisation and fun meant when dancing to this music. But most of all it made me realize that I knew nothing about this dance their culture and the least of all their music. All I could feel was how much I've missed and how much I had to learn.

The good news after my trip was that I knew what I was looking for in my efforts to continue what I had just started. The bad news was that I just became a beginner again. Worse than that - I had forget the basics I thought I had learned, before I start again.

For those of you who think that New York style or any other style for that matter is more complicated, intricate and complex please visit this site: www.salsaville.com. Eric Freeman, who many of you probably know for his 'Cool Moves' video series, has compiled a set of five - six 'Salsa a la Cubana' video tapes produced straight from the source. Through my searches of alternative style to what is widely offered world-wide as L.A. / New York Salsa, this is the only place I have been able to find with video material which reproduces the true fascinating nature of Cuban style dancing. Eric has even translated the moves (probably reluctantly) to the North-American count of 1,2,3.5,6,7

Toronto instructors, I urge you to order these tapes analyze and start teaching. It will bring some new element in our eloquent dance style - the element of fun and sensuality. Get together, you know who you are, combine your strengths in marketing, music knowledge and dance talent and bring to us something new, real and different.

I was able to find a few (very few) Cuban style dance lovers and Cuban style dance instructor. Whoever feels that the Cuban style lovers are trying to impose their views and believes worry no more. There are so few of them in Toronto that the mainstream majority doesn't even know anything about them. What we should be concerned with is that soon, a beautiful dance style will be completely assimilated and no one will know it ever existed. And if the natural forces of cultural evolution are moving in this direction so be it. But let's not reject something we don't know enough about and have not experienced.

For all NY, L.A. Miami style dancers, relax and enjoy your domination. It would take a 3rd world war for Cuban style to take over and establish itself in North-America and that is provided that, God forbid, every other nation loses it's population during the war while Cuba remains neutral.

I keep hearing about those of us who have had experience dancing with Cubans here and there how rough they lead and how simplified their style is. Guys, on the contrary of what most people think there ARE Cubans who can't dance well. Nor they want to. Especially the younger generation. They are simply tired of their own music. The same way we are looking for alternatives to our worn-out rock music. It has been too imposed to them by the communist regime and as most younger people are. they are rebellious. "The grass on the other side is always greener", they say and indeed it is. Young Cubans often would chose to dance to Rap music, Reggae and anything that sounds American. Not all Cubans can dance contra-tiempo or 'on 2' as we like to call it. In all honesty not too many of them even know on what beat they are dancing on nor they care. It's on the clave and what really counts is that they are in sync with the partner.

Believe me those Cubans who can dance, dance really well.

TO EVERY SALSA LOVER:

Dear fellow Salsieros, remember, the music makes people dance. Try to listen to it. There is a lot more going on in there than 8 simple beats. The steps will come naturally.

Thank you Tosalsa, thank you Rose for providing us with this forum. I hope the space you have allocated on your server's hard drive will be able to accommodate my little novel. -- Lou"

Hi everybody !!! This goes to "LOU" from Toronto
I just want to thank u for your wonderful and mature arguments,I perssonaly think there is no more words to add,You have said it all. Allway from Amsterdam the place to be !!!
Keep it real !!! -- Rafa

Saludos para todos los salseros de Toronto!
My name is Joaquin and I am from Cuba. I've been teaching salsa in Ottawa for the past 4 years. I have been done some shows here in Ottawa with Rueda de Casino. The name of my school is Salsasion. My website (which I will be updating soon, because it is now old like Havana) is www.salsasion.com

I just wanted to reafirm with all of salseros about Lou's response regarding cuban salsa, las claves etc..., Lou I agree 110% with everything you said, in fact there is nothing left for me to say after your comments.

As you may realize there are not too many cubans in Toronto or Canada in general, but when you dance with a good cuban dancer, you really feel relax and enjoying salsa to the max. Don't get me wrong I also teach N.Y style and show spins and all the fancy staff. As many of the salseros may realize most of the N.Y. style has been taking from ballroom dancing which is too technical. I have been dancing casino (salsa for cubans) for the past 15 years and, in my opinion, you can feel really passion when you do so.

Nevertheless, keep dancing and keep learning different styles, we never finish learning as long as we are passionate for salsa.

Gracias,
Joaquin from Salsasion....por la pasion a la salsa

Lou you said it right here:

"I can say I've seen Cuban professional dancers dancing what we collectively call Salsa here. We took 'Cha-cha-cha' and Mambo. Needless to say it had nothing to do with what I've been thought here in Toronto."

That is because Salsa (the word) is a concept! Wille Colon has been saying it all along and anti-PR people can't get the meaning of what he's saying. When it comes to the dance, there is no such thing as SALSA! It's Mambo, Cha Cha Cha, Guajira and Guaguanco (the last two are what many are mis-labeling Cuban Salsa). What you see today as Salsa dancing is just everyone's style and improvisation of the basics in addition to those styles already mentioned above. Isn't that what dancing is all about? Doing your own thing? Improvising? Still you have to stay with the clave in order to dance with the music. When you do venture out and improvise it makes you unique if you execute it well.

Yet almost everyone forgets that there's club dancing (on the dance floor) and there's show/theme performance dancing. Problem is that many dancers today who love to perform take their shows to the dance floor at a club, and newcomers assume you have to flip and dip at all nightclub events. Well maybe in L.A. but, Salsa or Latin Dancing was suppose to be about having a wonderful time with your friends and dancing the night away if your heart desired. It wasn't about competing or having to go to a school to learn to flip and dip and spin 100 times. The era of going out and enjoying the music with friends and love ones is dying because the new generation, who happens to be the majority today is spinning all over the floor. Imagine a poor soul being take to a Latin Club for the first time and he sees acrobatic dancing! I guess it depends where you go. In NY La Maganette has a clientele that has lasted overs 30 years. You go inside and there you'll find everyone dancing a style appropriate to the music. A Guaguanco to a Guaguanco. A Guajira to a Guajira. A Mambo to a Mambo. I'm sure that if they saw a couple fliping and dipping they'd tell them..."Dear, the show hasn't started yet"! -- Janemas

Dear BU, Which part of my opening paragraph seems so difficult to understand:

<<<<<I would like to share my experience in deciding which Salsa dancing style fits better the way I feel the music. Everything I wrote is without prejudice and it simply represents yet another point of view. I am not trying to tell anyone how they should dance, which style is better or what Salsa is all about.>>>>>

I am not CLAIMING anything AT ALL, people. I am merely expressing an opinion for those interested in hearing it. It is not meant to be personal nor it is addressed to anyone in particular.

And for those people who feel that popular always means "the best" I respectfully disagree... Lou

Dear readers, I have been here in Toronto just 4 months, and it has called my attention that cuban salsa is not popular here as you were discussing in your forum. This is something i find really sad, as we cubans are the creators of this kind of music, so I guess we should do more about it. For that purpose, I am thinking about getting together any cuban dancers; and i don't mean professionals, I mean popular, 'cause we are the ones that really know how to enjoy dancing, rather than making a show out of it; to create a club or a group where we can dance our precious cuban salsa with our own unique way and also forming a 'rueda de casino'.

This idea has been spoken to some people and as they agree it will be great if we do something for our country's cultural representation in this city and if we can put this together we will be presenting it on the very well known latin discos of Toronto.
I really hope for some enthusiastic answers. -- D.G.T.

That's great that you are being pro-active about Cuban dancing so it will flourish in Toronto. If I may make a suggestion, it will probably be better if you bring it out of the "Cuban" fold and hang out where mainstream dancers hang out so we can also enjoy its beauty. The salsa scene in Toronto is very diverse, and we would like to see it become part of the dancing scene in Toronto. There's no reason for it be just limited to pockets of individuals. For that matter, there is definitely a need for better teachers that can reach the mainstream crowd. -- Alex

reply to DGT, I would be very interested. email me via TOsalsa. -- Blanche

Dear Alex, Thank you very much for your answer, but I don't really understand why are you reffering to "be just limited to pockets of individuals". I do hang out where mainstream dancers hang out, and unfortunately for me I do not like the view, meaning that there is not too many people dancing my way or the cuban way. For that purpose exactly is that I am calling out for any cuban dancer that would like to join me in putting together our own group of rueda de casino. I this is done with the purpose of being presented everywhere in Toronto to get known by everybody. I don't see what is limited about this idea, or it is just that I don't really understand what you mean, so please, if you will be so kind and explain me again it will be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. DGT

Dear Blanche, I am so happy to hear that there's someone interested on my idea!!! Thank you very much. I would love to contact you by phone or private mail so we can start putting together this idea and doing something for the cuban salsa in this country. Waiting for your soonest reply. Thank you. DGT

I am not a profesional dancer of any style, but I do am the kind of dancer that enjoys at heart. So I guess I am qualified to talk a little about this topic. My opinion is that first of all it is true that most of the cuban people do not feel atracted by the music played at the clubs. But in case we do decide to go out, like has happened to me, we don't find a compatible dancer. This is because as someone mentioned before we cuban people would rather to enjoy our dance than to spin around as crazy springs just to show off that we "know how to dance". In cuba we don't go to schools to learn how to dance, we are born dancing and that's something you bring on your blood and can't not be teached on any school, even the best of them.!!!!!!!!1 Thank you very much. DGT

DGT, If you happened to read some of my notes under this discussion topic, you would have noticed that I am all in for Cuban. I don't think too many people can relate to what you are saying but I do. So by all means let's do something about it. I am not Cuban but I believe I am quite familiar with the Cuban style. And who knows may be we have already seen each other, although I can't quite determine by your nick name if you are a lady or a man. I do hang out with as many Cubans as possible but like you said, the music played out there is repetitive, old and never changing so it CAN be boring. There is one DJ in town who plays Cuban music but not too many people appreciate him and he is getting little discouraged too.

If you are Cuban, you should know some Cuban people. If you guys get yourself organized, all you have to do is some line dancing, not even couples. It works most of the time. But you HAVE to get out there... I'll be the first one to join you and I believe there would be at least 4-5 people that I know who would be there too.

Lou

P.S. By the way, I noticed that you didn't quite engage yourself into arguments with some of the people here trying to determine who created Salsa and admire that. Whatever is the Cuban style called and wherever it comes from it feels right to me.

Hello Richard, Thank you very much for your reply, it is really kind of you wishing me all the best. And I do think is a great idea, but unfortunately I haven't got many replies. On the other hand, we strongly disagree on the "creators" of salsa music. I just have to say that all the basic sounds of today's salsa music are Cuban. That Puerto Rico shares a lot of similarities with Cuba, even music, that's true. But what we call today salsa was known in my country for many many years with other names before the puertorican of New York start calling it salsa. That everybody has apported something to this kind of music, it is true. As it is also true that we play it and dance it different. But I think you have to agree with me that when the puertoricans of New York started playing it, dancing it and calling it salsa, we cubans were already enjoying it for many years. Thank you very much. DGT.

Hello Lou, Thank you very much for your answer, I read your mails in this forum and I appreciate your position for cuban music and dance. I am also getting as discouraged as the DJ who plays cuban music, because i haven't get any answer, just one, of anyone interested on spending some of their free time on preparing a reuda de casino to be presented out there for everybody. The worst part is not only that our music and way of dancing is not popular here, but the fact that the cubans that are living here are addapting to the style here and forgetting all about ours, THAT HURTS!!!!!!!! Anyway, i am a lady and if you wish you can mail me via tosalsa. Thank you very much and thanks to all the people who make this disscusion forum possible. It is great!!! DGT

DGT, You sound discouraged. It's not that bad actually. I think I know who are you talking about, but my advice to you is not be concerned with that. After all every one is entitled to do dance whatever they feel like and more importantly, if you being a girl happen to like a guy whom you met on the dance club, chances are that you may have to adapt your dancing to his instead of the opposite. Most people think that Cuban dancing is very easy until they actually try to move and relax. I don’t believe too many have actually seen, real Cuban dancing other that a few couples here and there who are not particularly skillful. In the few attempts I’ve witnessed, of people willing to learn Cuban style they get bored somewhere between the music lesson teaching the basics of clave and the first few basic steps / turns lessons. Not interested in getting into do music too much. They’d rather go to the moves / spins stage quicker and L.A. style offers that at a much faster pace. Besides, if someone have already danced rock’n’roll or swing they really don’t have much more to learn as most dips / spins have already been introduced there.

Anyway, DGT It's actually not that bad. There is group of us who are taking Casino / Casino Rueda classes and share your problem. There is a few Cuban guys who we often socialize with and this past Saturday we even did a small round led by one of the Cuban guys. It wasn't really anything special at all as few enthusiast joined the round but was fun.

If you are interested in joining the group let me know. The instructor is Cuban of course. I am sure you him. You can start from there your search...

If you haven't been to Lula you should go. The Cuban girls band has sparked quite an interest in town and seems to me that some of the hard-core L.A. / NY style dancers are willing to revise their preferences in their efforts to get some attention from the girls. Or... one never knows may be they actually starting to ask themselves questions...

The band is very lively and enjoys increasing attendance. It definitely contributes to introducing the Cuban music in the otherwise played-to-death Toronto repertoire.

A group of us are also considering going back to Cuba (Santiago). -- Lou