The
Responses....
October
31, 2002 -- Rose's response
Dear Lula, thanks for writing in and providing us your thoughts based
on your own experience, but for Cuban/latin dancers who have never studied
or understood the LA-style or mambo style of dancing -- you are also
assuming alot of things, such as the fact that we don't enjoy the basic
step. Dancing no matter what style is for enjoyment. If they didn't
enjoy moving to the music -- they probably wouldn't have spent the time
taking classes and practicing in the clubs.
There are two distinct ways to learn dancing, either by just watching
or learning from family, friends or growing up with it in your culture;
and for those who just don't have the natural rhythm or talent to pick
up by watching, then if you want to advance more quickly, learning from
an instructor who will explain and help you to learn to dance. To be
able to "feel the music" is usually more difficult for beginners
to a dance that they're not comfortable with or people who just can't
move to the music because they don't have the innate talent to improvise.
In some ways I agree, the LA style, mambo style, ballroom style -- any
structured style of dance doesn't always lend itself to instantaneous
changes to the music as the music tempo or break may happen while the
dancer is in the middle of a turn pattern.
Putting spins with feet together in one place, well that's also a matter
of opinion -- you have your opinion on how to spin and there's so many
variations and theories about the proper way to spin. Before I took
classes or listened to instructors about spinning, I also had my own
technique to do multiple spins (on one foot); and then was taught another
way in classes which I adapted (using two feet); and finally a year
later went back to my old style of spinning (on one foot) because that
was the only I could fit in a quadruple while dancing on 2, New York
style, if that's what my partner was leading me into.
Regarding advanced LA dancers not doing curved cross body leads -- it's
not because they can't do them, it's because their style of dancing
does not include them. I would argue that the reason there is that backward
and forward (on a diving board) style of dancing is that, if you're
in a club, and everyone's dancing in the same direction, there is less
chance of being stepped on, bumped into, etc. Whereas anything with
a circular motion would take more space in a club and definitely lends
itself to bumping or stepping on people's feet as you are taking up
more space.
Dancing to the music and what form you take to dance to the music always
comes down to personal preference and what you know. For me, I will
try to dance any style that my partner chooses. My least favourite style
to dance would be the old Toronto style of salsa. It's alright for a
dance or two, but I don't get the same enjoyment from it as I do the
more modern salsa on 1 (mix of LA and NewYork) or New York Style on
2, depending on the music. Because I'm comfortable with those styles,
I don't have to think and can just enjoy the music more... and maybe
that's what it really comes down to... what style you're comfortable
dancing to without having to think about it. Anyways, that my two-cents
worth. Rose
November
2, 2002 -- Lula's e-mail
Rose, I don't understand your logic. Do you really think
everybody is dancing in the same direction in a nightclub? I would like
to see LA style dancer try to do a curved cross body lead. It would
be funny. But who is hitting who in the clubs? It is usually the want
to be LA style dancers who are bumping and smashing into people in the
clubs. The reason? They can only do their spins hard and fast and do
their cross body leads long and straight. The advantage of doing curved
cross body leads is that you can avoid hitting people. Cuban dancers
can do small, straight, long, curved any time you want, depending on
the amount of people in the club or the preference of the leader. You
never see a Cuban guy bumping into people in the dance floor. Cuban
style is more relaxed with no fingers in the air. The problem with LA
style salsa is that is not fundamentally sound. If you tell a LA style
dancer to do a step a different way, they can't do it. I find dancing
LA style too restrictive. I hate always making big steps, the same steps.
I want to move my hips, move the around the floor. Cuban women can do
the LA spins and follow a LA style dancer, but ofter a while they get
bored because it is about spins. For example, in the basic "mambo"
step, when the women steps forward
on her left foot and does a spin to her right. In LA style, she is supposed
end up in the same spot with her feet together.
In casino, they do this step too, but the woman moves with this spin
and ends up to the far right of the man. Many times when a Cuban guy
dances with a LA style dancers, she can't keep up because she really
hasn't mastered the basic step and the clave. I told this to a teacher
at Soles, but she called my basic step a "styling" or a "shine".
No, this is a basic step, the basic step in Cuba. Ok, you step forward
with your left foot, why does your 2 with your right foot stay in the
same place? And when you bring back your left why does it have to go
exactly next to your other the foot. Your feet should never be exactly
next to each other.
These LA style dancers can't even walk to the clave. A
cross body lead is just when the woman walks, that's why it's sometimes
called paseo. But LA style dancers teach this basic cross body lead
as spin with your feet together. Isn't how they teach it here? After
your cross body lead, your feet should be together ready to go back
with your right foot (for the ladies). Dancing should always be left
foot, right foot, left, right, etc,. I think that's why many LA dancers
lose the clave because they are too busy spinning on the spot. Alex
and Lula
November
8, 2002 -- response to Alex and Lula
It is not my intention to make political statements,
defend or criticize any form/style of dancing.
To my knowledge, this website is for the salsa dancer/listener/lover,
and to tell you the truth, I'm getting a little bit tired of hearing
salsa/politics discussions in forums like this!
And what style is better or which one is right or which one is wrong.
I thought this was over years ago with the beginning of congresses (Salsa
Congresses).
Dancing is the interpretation of music using body movements. Dear readers,
each of us are a different person and have a different perception of
the music. Add to that the different backgrounds, ethnicities, taste,
influences and locations. There are numerous things that may influence
your dancing personality (that is who you become on the dance floor).
I believe that there is not right or wrong Style (On1, NY2, LA1, On3,
Casino, Colombian, etc). If you want to defend what your favorite, more
power to you! But do not criticize other dancing styles especially if
you don't fully understand them.
I have danced Colombian, Cuban, On1 and NY2 styles. I appreciate every
single one of them, but I do have my favorites. Dancing on a "diving
board", as Rose said, do take less space on the dance floor rather
than dancing on a circle, just think about it. If everybody is executing
a cross body lead on the same direction on a crowded dance floor, no
body should be getting stepped on. Of course, you have those dancers
who have no respect for other people's dancing space but that is a different
topic.
To prove this take a sheet of paper, and draw circles with 3 inches
diameters with out touching each other, and on the other side of this
page do the same thing with 3 X 3 inches squares. They will represent
dance couples, and find out by yourself which way you can get a bigger
number.
Concerning the basic step theory. To bring your feet together after
you had stepped forward/back is just for instructional purposes only.
If you notice advanced dancers do not bring their feet together while
dancing, at least not often. You are right when you say that while executing
the basic you should step left, right, left, right, left, right. That
is why we step: (1) left, (2) right, (3) left; (5) right, (6) left,
(7) right, this is On1. On2 or NY2 would be: (1) right, (2) left, (3)
right; (5) left, (6) right, (7) left. Check the footwork diagram on
Salsa Web for you to understand this better. Once you have master this
Basic then you can add the sabor, style, and drama, with syncopated
moves. These moves could be consider shines, because shines are nothing
else than a variation of the basic, at least some of them are!
I hope this can help you appreciate other styles better. Remember, it
is not how you look, is how you feel and make others feel that same
passion while you are dancing.
Respectfully, Betto
November
8, 2002 -- 3 x 3 squares?
It seems strange to me that on a dance floor everbody
is dancing in the same direction. Can you imagine I want to go dance
and I check to see I am dancing in the same direction as the others?
It sounds very ballroom to me. And if they don't dance this way they
are not seasoned trained professionals?
Betto, where did you get the idea of 3x3 squares? By in large, LA style
dancers take larger steps, so they take up more room than Cuban cross
body leads. I think 10x2 is more accurate. Why did you get of complete
circles? Circular or curved doesn't mean a circle. Cubans do angled
and straight cross body leads. It's called variation. If someone is
in the way of you straight cross body lead, you can angle the woman
so she doesn't hit anybody. LA style dancers mark out their space on
the dancefloor and if you should enter this space beware. Curved cross
body leads never hurt Cuban people who want to accent or style. I respect
New York style because it grew around the music of Fania. But if you
look closely at New York is just variation of Casino. It is Casino boxed
in. To tell you the truth, I do 't think there is much to learn in LA
style salsa unless you are into tricks and choeorgraphy.
P.S. Maria and other people made it political when they
LA or New York styles of dancing is more advanced than LATIN AMERICAN
styles. Just because North American salsa has influences has influences
from Swing, Ballroom and Disco doesn't make it more
advanced. Cuban salsa dancing of course has influences from other dances
too, but of course Maria wouldn't know this. Casino's other influences
tend to more African and have a clave. In fact, the precussion in Cuban
salsa is stronger than other types of salsa, so it is very hard ignore
the clave. The precussion in other types of salsa tends to quieter,
hence you get more dips, hard spins that doesn't follow the music --
Chincub
November 8, 2002 -- Thank you Betto!
Who am I thanking? A Salsera who wrote a reply to Alex and Lula
regarding the rebuttal I made about her comments about Cuban and LA
dancing. She basically covered almost every point I would have brought
to their attention. The one thing she didn't mention was that I did
say IF dancers would all dance in a straight line -- I never suggested
that that is exactly what is done in the clubs, because it's almost
impossible unless they're all very well-trained, seasoned dancers.
I showed one of our Toronto dancers this theory -- about dancing in
a straight diving board position vs. just ending the combinations in
whatever angle you ended up. What he realized was that the girl could
style or accent more in a diving position because she had the same point
of reference. If you let the girl/guy end up at any angle, you are never
sure where you should place your hands or if you try to style or accent,
you might end up hitting your partner or someone else. In this formation,
he was also able to play more with the timing by delaying or speeding
up the pattern to add some variety or to match the speed or the accents
in the music, because he had the exact same point of reference on the
dance floor; and if all the dancers were dancing in the same direction,
you immediately notice that there's less chance of bumping into each
other while doing your patterns.
And to all the cuban dancers who visit this site, if you ever see me
in the clubs, please introduce yourself and I'd be more than happy to
talk and demonstrate the different dance style basics I've learned and
to understand your style better -- Rose
November
8, 2002
Dear Rose, I find your comments about social dancers disturbing.
You seem to think they can't dance well. You criticized some of the
dancers for in the berlin competiton for being social dancers. And what
do you mean by seasoned , well trained dancers? Are
we preparing for the olympics? Seasoned dancers are those that have
taken lessons? But apparently if you read the bios of these well-trained,
seasoned dancers, they are too advanced for lessons. Only salsa congresses
are good enough for them. And it is interesting that are no Cuban teachers
at these congresses, only Cuban-Americans. I am sure many Cuban social
dancers are much better than these seasoned, well trained dancers you
talk about. And of course, these Cuban dancers were also taught by relatives
or friends, etc. -- Heidy
November
10, 2002 -- cuban and LA styles...
Dear Lula & Alex: It is very sad to realize that
there's still people that feel like you in this world. How dare you
assume that people do not enjoy whatever it is that they are dancing?
Trust me, if they did not enjoy it, they would not be at a club partying,
they would be at home knitting a sweater! Also, how in the world can
you assume that people that dance a specific style can not dance any
other way? You speak in absolutes: "In cuban style you NEVER...",
"LA style dancers ALWAYS...", "This step DOESN'T belong..."
While I am sure it wasn't your intention to come across as closed minded,
you have to be careful as to how you express yourselves when speaking
about something as subjetive as salsa.
First off, when you assert that LA style is not fundamentally sound,
you better have a more valid argument than saying that YOU find it restrictive.
What you probably meant is that you have not mastered yet.
I believe that the best way for you to make your point about dance styles
would be to become an expert, or at the very least, proficient in the
styles that you are about to critizise. I have never had the pleasure
of dancing with you or seeing you dance, so at this point I cannot tell,
but you sound like you have never taken the time to learn and practice
neither ballroom nor LA style salsa.
However, I have been dancing and teaching for twenty years and I can
tell you for SURE that:
LA style, NY style, Ballroom, Colombian, Cuban, Casino and even Swedish
style good dancers WILL do a curved Crossbody Lead if the floor is crowded.
Any style dancer, Cuban, LA, NY, Ballroom, scrambled or sunny-side-up
WILL bump into others on the floor if they are not careful; especially
if they do turns in which they shift or shuffle their second step. (In
dance teacher training school we call that "pulling your basic".
Think about it: in most turns, you have to pivot on your second step.
If that step is "pulling", you are thereby MOVING the center
of your turn, which implies an automatic loss of balance, bigger steps
on the next backbreak and usually, a collision with a nearby couple)
Sorry to point this out to you but the way you describe your basic step
it sounds like a "pulled basic", which is fine as long as
you have lots of room and the music is not too fast.
And before any of us gets all riled up let us remember one thing: Even
within Cuba people dance different ways. Whatever it is that you call
cuban style is not what cubans themselves are dancing. I know for a
fact that people in Habana dance differently from those in Santiago
de Cuba, or Cienfuegos or Santa Clara.
By the way, I find North American people who take salsa lessons -regardles
of the style- to be the most adaptable dancers you can find. Example:
When I attended the second West Coast Salsa Congress in LA a few years
ago, I danced with a real, honest to goodness hardcore LA style salsera.
I was blown away: I merely had to twitch my fingers and this girl was
already on her third spin! But then she ASKED me how we dance here in
Canada, and she proceded to learn and follow me through any step that
I could show her in the middle of a congress dance floor! Sadly, I have
yet to dance with or hear about a Latin "natural dancer" who
"has it in their blood" who can be as open minded as that
LA woman and her friends, all of whom were ready to learn whatever is
new because learning is their joy. In the end, people like her end up
being the better dancers because they can adapt to any style, depending
on the speed and character of the music, their partner's and their own
skill level and the mood they are in. So, don't knock it until you have
tried it and gotten good at it. Remember that as long as people are
having a good time and LEARNING, even a hardcore cuban dancer can find
a little place in his or her heart to admire the skills of others and
become a better dancer too. -- Francisco
November
12, 2002 -- response to Chincub
Dear Chinclub, I am not trying to take this friendly
discussion to an argument, and I know that you are doing the same. So
now that we have that out of the way Im going to explain to you more
detailed what I was trying to share with the readers.
First of all, the circles and squares ANALOGY was just
to prove which style takes the less space on the dance floor. Me for
instance, when dancing On1 or NY2 mambo style I would use a space of
6X3 feet. This is enough space for me to allow my partner and I execute
comfortably any moves, turn patterns or shines (now if I have more space,
I am going to use it). Now if you draw this on sheet of paper (reduced
to inches instead) you can place it horizontally or vertically which
will determine the direction I'll be dancing!
When I dance Cuban or Cumbia style (they are not the same but they do
have the tendencies of doing what some one called a curved cross body
lead), I would be using the same area of 6X3 feet but all the way around,
not in just one direction but different ones (since the curved cross
body lead are executed in any direction).
Mambo Style, which is danced on a line or a diving board,
goes just in one direction (from point A to point B). Cuban style and
Cumbia style could go on any direction therefore the circle theory (from
point A to C, from C to D, from D to B etc, etc).
Every time I see people dancing with no control trying
to do tricks, extremely long extensions, taking long steps or just using
their partner to make more room (on a crowed dance floor), I just try
to stay away from them. Those are the ones who usually get hurt or get
some one else hurt. People need to respect dancing space; it is part
of dancing etiquette. I do get a little bit upset when Im on my 6X3
and Id be dancing almost half of the song and some one comes from the
other side of the dance floor to bump into us! I think any dancer would
get upset for something like that! Wouldnt you?
When I first step on a dance floor, I don't worry about
which direction people are going. I just look a safe spot where I can
have fun. And if you consider looking for the direction people are dancing
VERY BALLROOM, well then too bad, because that might be the style
I like to dance.
I don't really know what is up with a lot of people trying
to put down other styles. Ballroom, Mambo, Casino, Cumbia, or any other,
if you have fun and you can get connected to the music with it, then
who cares which style you dance.
Respectfully,
Norberto a.k.a. Betto
November
17, 2002 -- Cuban and L.A. Styles of Salsa
"Cuban salsa dancing of course has influences from
other dances too, but of course Maria wouldn't know this. Casino's other
influences tend to more African and have a clave."
Casino is also influenced by AMERICAN COUNTRY SQUARE DANCING. I remember
in the Cheetah in the 70's when we use to switch partners dancing with
four or five people. The only thing we didn't do was go in a circle
like Square Dancers. Mutiple Partner Dancing has been around a long
time.
Cuban Salsa? What ever happened to just plain Cuban style
Mambo? No one really dances Salsa...they dance Mambo to Salsa, Son,
Guaguanco or Rumba tunes. A Guajira style of dance, to a Guajira tune,
A Cha Cha Cha style of dance, to a Cha Cha Cha tune. A Bolero style
of dance, to a Bolero tune. The Mambo has variations just like FRANCISCO
said. Thank you for that wonderful, logical, truthful explanation Francisco.
ROSE you gave a wonderful, clear explanation just like FRANCISCO! I
got so dizzy from this 1,2,3....A.B.C...back and forth and round and
round, QUE LE QUITARAS LAS GANAS DE BAILAR A CUAL QUIERA!
I'm a NY'er and love our style. I do appreciate other
styles and more power to anyone who are doing their own thing if they
are having the time of their life! There is no correct way to dance
OUR LATIN MUSIC. Your heart is what leads you to move based on the rhythms
and the ability to respond to those rhythms. To each his own! Their
are those who can improvise and stay on clave by feeling the Tumbao
naturally. Their are others who dance like those from L.A. based on
their enviroment and background i.e. Quebradita o Cumbia influence.
Whatever it is..it is not wrong, just different and a matter of choice,
or a way that's easier for them to learn. Is one better than the other?
Sometimes. Depending on how good of a dancer they are independently.
Too many teachers today! Everyone looks like they all are on a class
trip at a night club, simply because they are doing the same thing --
Janemas
