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| Our Reader asked... | |
| Our Feedback cont'd | January 6, 2003 - Rudy's response |
| January 8, 2003 - Richard's response | |
| January 11, 2003 - Vladimir's response | |
| January 13, 2003 - Richard's response | |
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January 15, 2003 - Frank's response |
| January 20, 2003 - Richard's response | |
| January 23, 2003 - V's response | |
| January 27, 2003 - Rudy's response | |
| February 28, 2003 - Chincub's response to Richard | |
| March 2, 2003 - Janemas' response to Chincub | |
| March 20, 2003 - John's response | |
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April 19, 2003 - Richard's response |
| October 2, 2003 - Annette's response | |
| November 2, 2003 - Rosmary's response to Annette | |
| New!
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November 13, 2003 - Michael's response to Rosmary |
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The Feedback.... January 6, 2003 -- Is There a Love/Hate Relationship Between Ballroom Dancing and Salsa "Following music in Ballroom is much harder then in Salsa (mostly because of greater speed and syncopated steps), yet most people keen on this kind of dancing master it. Did ismael mean something else by 'right feel'? I'll be happy to become enlightened." Much greater speed? I was out salsa dancing this past weekend with someone who taught ballroom dance (at a chain studio) for a little over a year (not very long, I realize). She commented that she has trouble keeping up with the speed of salsa, and mentioned that a salsa workshop we had both attended with someone with a fairly "street" background, had left her feeling that she was slow. I think she probably prefers slower dances to begin with, but despite some ballroom background, she finds the speed factor in salsa to be a challenge. Rudy January
8, 2003 -- Ballroom Techniques Versus Salsa Feel
Many of the arguments against ballroom dancing comes from dancers who has had very limited or no experience in ballroom training. By that I mean, they have not seriously pursued ballroom dancing beyond three to five years. I wonder about their qualification or motives in making broad sweeping statements or when they choose to paraphrase from a so call source "someone who taught ballroom dance at a chain studio". Some of these reasons are very thoroughly covered by Michael's excellent post above. We should not be surprised that visitors to www.tosalsa.com are inherently biased. As the name of this site suggests, dancers generally are either interested in or have chosen Salsa as their main form of dance. However, not all dancers to visit this board are solely interested in Salsa dancing. A quick survey of dancers in the partner search area show that a significant 30 to 40% of dancers either are interested in ballroom or are actively engaged in ballroom dancing. Significant, as after all, this is a Salsa site. It is interesting to note that certain writers on this Salsa web-site should be making anecdotal or ignorant comments about ballroom dancing, which serves to narrow their perspective rather than broaden it. Those that have presented biased arguments are, I believe in the vocal minority. I appeal them to visit a ballroom web-site to see if ballroom dancers there make a habit of debasing another dance. I am a Salsa Dancer in training having completed my ninth advanced series of Salsa. I have also completed nine levels of Casino Rueda and the masters level of Casino Rueda. I feel qualified to speak about Salsa dancing. Presently, I am taking lessons in International Ballroom in Cha Cha Cha, Samba, Waltz and Rhumba. I can definitely state that International Ballroom is not slow, Rhumba included. Quickness is an essential part of Rhumba, which is a dance often perceived as slow. If you do not believe me, stay around for a discussion and learn. International Latin Samba demands extreme agility and quickness in execution to its percussive beats. I find International Ballroom dances to be very challenging even though I can proudly proclaim that I am accustomed to dancing salsa, in time, to a very fast tempo, in Casino Rueda and advance level Salsa. How fast? Fast enough that the average dancer is resorting to simple figures in order to stay in time. International Ballroom training is making me a much better dancer than I was a year ago. What is sorely lacking in Salsa dance training in clubs is training in dance techniques. Before writers debase another dance or dancer, video tape yourself and play it back. It could be a scary experience. One final point, we all have our personal feelings about music and dance. It is a personal feeling and that RIGHT feel is personal for a dance ART. Mastery of an Art is achieved when techniques are no longer a barrier. -- Richard January
11, 2003 -- ballroom and salsa
I think it is wrong to generelize because everybody feels the music differently, also not everybody is born with the same talent to be a poor,good or great dancer and we all have our own taste on the music and what we want to dance to. I don't think ballroom dancers should talk bad about (salsa) dancing and also salsa dancers should not talk bad about ballroom dancers, people should understand that salsa and ballroom are both very different, for one thing salsa is a street dance and it's roots come from the son,danzon (Cuba) which roots are also from Spain and Africa, alot of salseros think that casino is a new style of salsa, they don't know that casino dancing and casino rueda existed years before the name salsa started being use for this music in the 70's, that is something that alot of salseros and ballroom dancers don't know, people were dancing to Son with la clave in Santiago de Cuba more than a hundred years ago and it reached Habana in 1909, and it wasn't untill the 1920's that it started it's evolution with the music and the dance, the son was dance almost like el danzon, at that time people would dance to son with a quick quick slow step on the off beat(slow step on the third sound of la clave 3x2), also in one dance the couples would do one or to slow turns in one song, it was all about feeling the music, some people would even dance with their eyes closed, tornillos (man going down on one foot) were also executed in the dance. a mix of son and danzon in the music gave birth to the danzon, but son,danzon,danzonete and guaracha are dance different.The evolution of Son in it's music from the 1920;s to the 1950's from having a 7 piece band to a 15 piece band from TRADITIONAL son instruments used: trees, guitar,bongos,claves,maracas,guiro to MODERN son introducing piano, base, trompets,trombones e.t.c along with the evolution of the music so did the dance, more turns were started to be use and also the couples started to separate when they were dancing. In the 50's the form of dancing cuban cha cha cha gave the starting point for the dancers to initiate a new style of dance which later will be name casino, at that time during carnaval time in Habana there were dance competitions between the social clubs for young people, each style in each club was a little different, but the dancers from the Club Casino Deportivo style was so good and different that people started to call that style of dance from that club CASINO. Casino at that time was dance with a lot of complicated turns and as time went by the turns started to get more complicated, the modern son up to the point it reached N.Y and the rest of the world and up to now was always in evolution but it was never danced by using strait arms like if you were about to go in to a ballroom turn or grabing your partner and lifting her or two think that if you do three turns insted of one you would be consider a better dancer, remeber that this dance was invented in Cuba by the everyday people (gente popular) from the popular black neighboor hoods, just like other types of dances from North America like hip hope,brake dance e.t.c. Alot of people started to incorporate ballroom in to this dance in north america, some Latinos and non Latin people that are introduced to salsa at a club for the first time think that the more ballroom they look when they dance the better they are at salsa, There are so may people from all of this salsa competitions that think that they are hardcore salseros but they look like they are dancig some type of ballroom salsa style with all of the posture and the straight arms in the air and lifts e.t.c and then they want to put down ballroom, personally i don't like ballroom to much but i do respect it because to compete professionaly it takes alot of hard work and alot of talent, not everybody could do it. I do know alot of ballroom dancers that also know how to dance and respect both ballroom and brazilia samba, tango and argentinian tango, cha cha and cuban cha cha cha, and what they call rhumba in ballroom is called Bolero in Cuba and Latin America and that there are two types of Rumba, the Cuban and the one from Spain. I don't agree with the ballroom instructors that think that they have perfected or refined Latin dancing because they haven't. I also
think that one big mistake is that alot instructors take the same
approche to teach new salsa dancers to move their bodys like they
do to ballroom, i think that is wrong because the body movement
in salsa should be more relaxed and i do know that for some people
to understand salsa you have to teach them to dance very mechanicaly
but that is only for some people not all and as an instructor you
should know the difference of style of body movement from one dance
to another, they are all different i don't think you would teach
to move your body to a ballroom studet like it is moved in casino
or AfroCuban it would be wrong, well the same mistake happens when
some people teach salsa by using ballroom technique. January
11, 2003 -- This ballroom versus salsa discussion is missing the
point entirely!
“ Ever since the earliest of recorded history, we have known dance, either in celebration or in worship. Dance is born into our souls. It transcends nations, politics, cultures and we as groups or individuals. Dance is the strongest of feelings and emotions in response to music. Dance is who we are visually. Our motion and movement through space is our expression to that emotion. Dance is our heartbeat inside of us. Can you feel it?” There is no perfection in dance, only a perception as we are moved by music, when it reaches into our minds and souls, leaving us unguarded. It is a mystery. The cultural context of dance, the sub-genre from which it sprang, does not matter for this does not intensify or diminishes our feeling of dance. Whether a dancer rises into the heavens with ascending arms or melts away into the floor, it is an illusion and a captured moment. There is also no perfection in dance, only a state of mind. This discussion about Ballroom versus Salsa does not inspire us. It is not about dance. As a dancer in development, I know only from my own experience and that experience tells me that my training in International Ballroom is helping me immensely in dance. If you should find me with my straight arms, ascending into the sky, it is not due to my Ballroom training, it is my interpretation of a musical instant. Can you feel it the way I am feeling it? -- Richard January
15, 2003 -- Ballroom Versus Salsa
There's a lot of subjectivity with regards to these discussion, so let me add mine. Yes, everything is subjective, how you feel, how you dance, etc., etc., but if one is to learn the authentic feeling of a particular dance or to be creative so you can "deviate" from its historical roots, one must also understand what exactly you are deviating from. For example, if you were wanting to learn the Rumba. You can choose to learn Cuban Rumba or International Ballroom Rumda dance which are quite different although it is clear that it was originally developed from it. I disagree with some of Vladimir's position or views on other issues, however, if one wants to genuinely learn the authentic feeling of a dance, one must incorporate the richness of what the past had to offer, and this does not necessarily mean that you can not be creative at that point. International Latin dances does have it's historical roots into Cuban dancing, but if it fails to recognize the essence of Cuban dancing, the dance will evolve into a sport where the aim becomes winning and not dancing -- Frank January
20, 2003 -- Ballroom versus Salsa Discussions - What is the
point?
For a discussion on the history and characteristic of International Rhumba, see the following links: 1) www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/rumba.htm Humans possess the unique ability to dance to music in an emotional way on many levels. It genuinely and authentically belongs to us as specie or an individual. Can our feelings not be real? If it is not real, is it a true feeling? International Rhumba has not evolved and will not evolve into a pure sport. International Rhumba is a dance. It is also a dance-sport within the competitive arena. To win at dance-sport events, couples do dance. Does any one know any body who does not dance to International Rhumba? You can try not to dance, but I do not think you will go very far. Creativity necessitates change. International Rhumba has evolved from its African, Spanish and Cuban roots. It is been authenticated/judged over and over again, and around the world. It has come unto its own and undoubtedly will evolve further well into the future. It is time for us to move on in order to leave history to the historians and dancing to dancers. Richard January
23, 2003 -- Salsa vs. Ballroom - I pick Ballroom - here's
why
I agree with Michael who posted in December - both Ballroom and Salsa have absolutely equal merit as forms of dance in all of the ways he mentioned. But there is one major difference that has nothing to do with the art form at all, but entirely with the "culture" surrounding the two different dance forms. I ended up prefering the "Ballroom Culture" - and in particular, the "competitive" culture. There is much less smoking (in fact, it is rarely allowed), and the focus is on pushing oneself hard to achieve higher levels of athleticism and grace in dance. And I like trying to beat people really - just part of my competitive spirit, I guess. Nothing like dancing in a competition to bring out energy and passion that you didn't know you had! Yes, definitely I have had the most fun ever dancing for hours with some of you great guys at a salsa club, but I haven't found a competitive culture in salsa yet - maybe I am just not at high enough of a level, but it really bothers me that if I want to dance salsa, anywhere, I have to be exposed to massive amounts of smoke, and the occasional drunken groper. Yes, it's a beautiful dance, too, but just because of the smoking and drinking culture that surrounds salsa, I have to say "I pass" for the most part. Such a shame, though! I like to dance salsa because it lets me more easily experiment and be creative (again, because of the more relaxed "culture" around salsa - everything goes - there are no set "standards" and the dance is always evolving). -- V January
27, 2003 -- Ballroom vs. Salsa
V wrote: "I ended up prefering the "Ballroom Culture" - and in particular, the "competitive" culture. There is much less smoking (in fact, it is rarely allowed). . ." This is at least one thing I much prefer about Ballroom Culture. At times I have almost thought I'd have to give up salsa because of the second hand smoke in clubs. Of course, in certain locations that would not be a problem. Also, now that I know more about what's available, I know of some smoke-free (non-club) venues). In fact, I was out dancing at a ballroom studio that has a Latin night, and I immediately complained when someone lit up a cigarette in what I thought was supposed to be a smoke-free environment (one of the advantages to dancing at such a venue). ". . . but it really bothers me that if I want to dance salsa, anywhere, I have to be exposed to massive amounts of smoke, and the occasional drunken groper. Yes, it's a beautiful dance, too, but just because of the smoking and drinking culture that surrounds salsa, I have to say "I pass" for the most part." I don't really mind the drinking that much (though spilled beer can be a drag). Many of the best salsa dancers I see in the clubs don't drink a whole lot, or don't drink at all. I don't have to worry about gropers, but you have my sympathies there -- Rudy February
28, 2003 -- Open Letter to Richard
Richard, when was this golden age when every man and lady dressed up for a evening out? Are you talking about going out generally? I would like to know when this golden age of salsa dancing happened. Salsa is a street dance. It was never danced in the ballrooms of Europe. Salsa and probably all the other Latin dances you ballroom dancers pretend to dance came from the poorer neighbourhoods and communities. It should be rightly called Afro-Latin music. Your vision of the world is a very Europeanized. I am guessing you are older. I mean this is okay if you are talking about Waltz or the Foxtrot. But you are dreaming about a world that never existed. Like other older people who remember a world where everybody was dressed nicely, worked hard and were respectful of other people. Perhaps the 1950's in the United States? The image is false because it the prejudice, despair and poverty that existed at this time. I am sure that they wouldn't even allow people of color into your cocktail and high society parties except as waiters or maids. But this is a website about salsa. So, according to many, your golden age of salsa should have happened in the 1970's or later. Dance
is a part of culture. Politics affects culture and history.
Even saying "I am not political" is a political
stance. You think dance should be free from politics,
but by saying that you are saying that dance should
be free from culture. You make the arguement that every
individual has their individual response to the music.
I have realized that you don't know a lot about Latin music and don't have a workable fluency in Spanish because when everyone asks you a question about the Latin music, the bands, culture and history, you put a big "I don't care." Then you give some reference to European music or art, trying to cover up that you don't know much about Latin music. Usually you quotation has nothing to do with Latin music. It is usually is Winfrey Oprahesque quotation with the words "heart", "soul" or "spirit". Richard, you are like the Dr. Phil of salsa dancing. The ordinary people in the streets of La Havana (Havana) in their running shoes dance much better than you will because they have a connection with the music. What do you think of West African dancing? Perhaps it is not classy enough for you. Or mabye if you put them in tie and shirt and took them dancing to the Palais Royale, you could civilize them. Africans dance too much with with hips, don't they Richard? I
am reminded of Frank (?) and Irene Castle the famous
dance couple from the United States. Lindy-Hop was the
dance among African-Americans, but it was too sensual
and there was too much hip movement for whites. So,
this couple started teaching a more "refined"
, "civilized" version of this dance to teach
White Americans Now, this "refined" version
of Lindy hop is what is considered standard for people
today. Latin Ballroom is Latin dancing stipped of its
culture and music and replaced by a more athletic March
2, 2003 --To Chinchub
The Golden Age of Salsa was during the 70's. That was when Fania put out the best recordings, thanks to talented musicians, arrangers, singers, composers! The Palladium ("The Palladium - When Mambo Was King", aired on the Bravo Channel last year) was in fact the place where people dressed to the "NINES" for a night of Latin Dancing! Ever seen the 15 minute documentary film "Mambo Madness"? In the 60's, everyone flocked to the famous Palladium and the Savoy Ballroom to dance Mambo! At a time when segregation was still in place, within the doors of these nightclubs there was only one color, and that was MAMBO! Tito Puente, a New Yorker born of Puerto Rican parents, who was often called "The King of Latin Music", along with Machto and Tito Rodriguez, "THE BIG THREE", as they were called gave way to MODERN SALSA! You don't believe me? Ask Cachao, Patato, Chocolate, Mario Grillo; Heck ask Dizzy Gillespie! Or look at the footage and historical microfilms in libraries. Will you believe the Smithsonian Institute? It's there too. What does it take? Just
because something was born in the streets, country
or fields, does not necessarily means it must forever
stay there! Janemas Sometimes things are said only because you want them to be true, but unless you research, it's only your version. Look at this timeline from The Smithsonian. Notice a few dates? 1840's: MEXICANS introduced the Latin Tinge, NOTE: Latin Jazz has a Latin Tinge (not Son)! Basically Africa's rhythm was being spread all over the Caribbean and part's of N.A. It was just passing by and developing as it took course. Notice 1850, 1929. http://www.smithsonianjazz.org/latinjazz/latinjazz_education_tl.asp Here's something to think about! 1809
- The first significant migration from Cuba to New
Orleans occurs when refugees from the revolution in
Saint-Domingue (Haiti) flee to Cuba in 1804, then
to New Orleans in 1809. March
20, 2003 --Ballroom vs Salsa
M Hi Rose!!! It is good to be back reading all the comments about this crazy topic!! A lot of good points have been made on both sides of the fence. If you really look at this topic from the outside, one would come to the conclusion that it is all about personal preference. Every style will have its' own character. Every style will have its' own beauty. You as an aspiring dancer will have to decide which style fits you. I myself like the overall dynamics of salsa (on1 or on2). To me, it is very fluid, very sensual and it is constantly growing. It also doesn't give the appearance of being stiff (I'm sure I will get a response about this description). This is my preference. To all of you aspiring dancers, go out and try the different styles that are out there. You decide for yourself which one is right for you and learn from the other styles. It's all good!!!!! Keep dancing!! This is what keeps us young and fit!!! Salsero Loco April
19 , 2003 --Dancing Preference - Ballroom Vs Salsa
Entering into the third year of my dancing experience.
I have learnt that a dancer must find it within
himself or herself the pleasure of dance. A dancer
shall dream things that never were and say "Why
not?" October
2, 2003 -- Ballroom verses Salsa
As a dancer since the age of 5 and now 48 (a ballroom dance instructor), I have danced ballet, jazz, and all ballroom dances (smooth, rhythm and latin) throughout my life. I prefer Mambo to teach, but I dance Salsa more socially, now due to demand of Salza being danced today. However, my opinion to all of the critics of any dance, is why not learn them all and perfect the ones you like best. Why all the jealousy. Each dancer has his/her own style and portrays that in their dancing. All I ask is that you demonstrate proper techniques and be unique in your styling and show the characteristics of that particular dance. Why do we have to be so critical and jealous of each dance out there. Dancing is a form of self expression, hard work, strong discipline to improve, so why not just "love to dance" and be thankful that we all have this talent, "to dance." -- Annette November
2, 2003 -- annette in ballroom
Nobody is jealous. But don't you think you and other ballroom teachers should more knowledgeable about the dances you teach. What you teach as mambo is not really mambo. For ballroom teachers mambo and salsa are danced to the same music, but with different timing. You see you teach mambo instead of salsa implying that you are degrading yourself by teaching salsa. Why is salsa only a social dance? Isn't samba a social dance? Just go to Brazil. But or course, you dance samba differently dance Brazilians. They haven't trained their bodies to the International style yet even though they invented the music. Your Rhumba is not even a rhumba, it is a bolero-son. Why it is Cha Cha instead of Cha Cha Cha? But the real mambo is usually danced without a partner. Annette, go to the a music store, buy some mambo music and try to dance your quick-quick-slow to that. You can't. You say dancing is self expression, but then you go on to say you need to be trained in proper technique. For proper technique, I have to be trained by a ballroom teacher? If I were a professional samba dancer in Brazil and I came to your studio, I am sure you would criticize my dancing. Who is being the closed minded here? Why don't you teach Argentine Tango or Afro-Cuban rumba? Why did you learn very British style of Latin Dancing? Why didn't you learn Cuban Cha Cha Cha or Cuban rumba? Wouldn't it be nice to know both? -- Rosmary November
13, 2003 -- aIs there a Love/Hate Relationship
between ballroom dancing and salsa?
Reply to Rosemary. I just couldn't help but interfere in what appeared to be an open expression of disrespect for a fellow dance. Rosemary, I don't believe you really understood what Annette said in a previous post. To summarize- she basically said that ALL styles and backgrounds of dancing deserve respect. She said that it'd help for most people to learn the various styles of dancing before passing on any critique. She said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Ballroom being superior to Salsa. You, on the other hand, turned that into another attack on Ballroom dancers and teachers, accusing them of superiority complex and going into another lengthy argument that Ballroom dancing is not really dancing since Ballroom Samba is not a Samba and Ballroom Rumba is not a Rumba. And what about that openly personal attack- accusing Annette of not having enought expertise or knowledge about origins of some dances? Even if she'd said something about origins of dances (which SHE DID NOT), your remark accusing her of close-mindedness would have been very inconsiderate. For Christ sakes, who cares what dance originated from where? If you like a particular style- dance it and leave others be. If you let me make a choice of who is OPEN-MINDED in this discussion- it is clearly Annette. With respect for all fellow dancers, of any style. -- Michael Dear Readers, if you have any questions or feedback, click here. |
