June 1, 2002 -- response to Peter

Peter, What makes you think the music for Salsa and Latin Ballroom is different? Your Rhumba is actually a Cuban son. And Salsa is actually a modernized version of Cuban son. So, in your Ballroom classes you are actually dancing a form of Salsa.

Cha Cha Cha and Merengue come from the Latin Carribean, not some salon in Europe. So, actually your "standard" Cha Cha Cha and Merengue are not standard. Compare your standard Ballroom Cha Cha Cha with the standard Cha Cha Cha in Cuba or the standard Merengue in the Dominican Republic. It is
called Latin Dancing because the music comes from Latin America. The Ballroom world does not create any music, they just invent steps to go with the music. How many Ballroom teachers do you know who can speak Spanish? True, you don't have to know Spanish to be a good dancer, but it would help to know what the songs mean. It just goes to show how little Ballroom people know about the music they are listening to.

How can salsa borrow heavily from Ballroom dancing, if son/salsa dancing came before any Latin ballroom dancing? How can you create a dance to music that hasn't been invented. True, modern LA style salsa borrows a lot of Ballroom. But, there has been clave based dancing for many decades before the invention of Ballroom dancing.

How can a dance be at the same time a street dance that is danced in brothels? Are these brothels outside? I think your teacher is confusing Argentine Tango and Salsa. Tango was danced in many brothels. Salsa is a street dance. That means it popular among many people not just limited to some salons for the rich. Is there anything wrong with that? Does that mean street dancers can't well? In North American, you have nightclubs, but in Cuba there are many nightclubs and concerts that take place outside. Who said the Salsa must be danced with hard resistance in your arms or with proper posture? The original way to dance salsa was very little resistance and very few spins. The comments of your instructor shows the Eurocentric bias that she has. Which is funny for me since Latin music comes from Latin America. Maybe she is afraid of losing students to the many Cuban instructors that are invading Toronto -- Chincub

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June 12, 2002 -- misunderstandings...

i wish everyone would look to the first comment that was made by teddy. No one is jealous of your ballroom style salsa nobody cares period! Not to be mean or ignorant, i think he knows the answers to his questions. I will keep it very short. All dancers are to be commended. Salsa is not better than ballroom anything and vice versa, all anyone is saying is that when you are dancing to salsa, merengue, cumbia or bachata it is not cool to be dancing like a stiff giraffe. That would be why girls tend to say "he dances ballroom" in a negative way. You don't dance ballroom when your partner isn't. That's all. If you dance ballroom that's great, but it doesn't mean you're a fantastic club salsa dancer and you shouldn't start all this by accusing others of jealousy because of your lack of skill -- eyes looking in

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June 16, 2002 -- looking in with eyes closed! :)

Hello eyes looking in, you seem to have looked but not seen. I take issue with your choice of labels. Why did you say "girls" tend to say "he dances ballroom"? Are you suggesting that only "girls" are narrow minded, and tend to over simplify and put labels on groups? I think you are putting "girls" down by using this gender reference. It smacks of biases and lack of tolerance for other dancers or dances. However, I do not think that you meant it in a negative way even if you are a "boy". I happen to think a giraffe is a very graceful creature. My little cousin had a stuffed toy giraffe and she would never part with it. So why malign a giraffe in thoughtless generalizations of other dancer?s style? Use of an over simplified term or label is quite thoughtless. It exhibits a lack of knowledge on the depth and breadth of a subject. Do users of the term "ballroom style" Salsa even know what they are talking about? There are ten dances in the International Ballroom group of dances. More if we should decide to include Argentinian Tango which is often danced in a ballroom environment. So which dance out of these ballroom dances are users of the term "ballroom styled Salsa" referring to? All of them or one of them. Is it waltz, foxtrot, tango, rhumba or cha cha or one of the other ones, such as Paso doble. You see the problem ignorance can lead to? My principal dance, by the way is Salsa. With tongue in cheek, perhaps my Salsa dance style is Paso doble styled salsa, I do not believe that it is like Jive! -- Richard

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June 16, 2002 -- For the love of Dance...

It does not take a thimble full of intelligence to see how little intelligence is contained in a certain individual's posts. For example, and I quote: ' What makes you think the music for Salsa and Latin Ballroom is different? ' By this rhetorical question, the writer proffers the view that perhaps the music for one dance, namely Salsa, is the same as that for five International Latin Ballroom dances. Those being Cha Cha, Jive, Paso Doble, Rhumba and Samba. See below for a point of view and the link about Rhumba, http://www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/rumba.htm stated without blatant inflammatory biases and credit is given where credit is due.

As a dance within the International Latin Ballroom dance group, Rhumba has evolved from its many origins, as has many other dances evolved. Salsa is evolving, and rapidly in cosmopolitan centres where cultures intermingle. It is a street dance first and foremost, without formal standards or guidelines. Taking formal training may help you as a dancer to carry yourself with improved posture, timing, isolation and control of muscles. As is often the case, you take out what you put into it. Let no one be driven into an identity crisis, as that certainly will take the fun out of dancing.

The writer is correct that the Ballroom world does not create any music. I think he intended to convey the view that the Ballroom World does not write or publish any Dance Music. But then the same could be said, largely correctly about any other dance. Music is written by composers, sometimes for the sole purpose of dance. A dance may promote and popularize a certain genre of music. Waltz was danced long before the music Waltz became popular as a musical form. Much to the chagrin of the conservatives of the Victorian era. It is important that dancers have music to dance to. It enhances, uplifts and sets the tempo and mood for a dance, however, one can dance to complete silence. Is silence musical? Or perhaps I might ask in another way, is ' Silence ' music? The lack of audible music does not stand in the way of creation of a dance.

At a competitive level, Ballroom Dancers has to have very intimate knowledge about the music that they dance to, as I have discovery through my meagre 3 months of ballroom dancing that ballroom dancing is very precise and exact. Danced at the very best, synchrony of couples can be achieved. Much like that seen from a group of demonstration level ski professionals doing powder eights down a ski slope. Street dancing is not meant to be precise, it is about fun and individualistic expression. It is comical to see one Salsaero potting off against another Salsaero about how bad the other dancers are. Is this inspirational, I do not think so!

Rumba
The word Rumba is a generic term, covering a variety of names (i.e., Son, Danzon, Guagira, Guaracha, Naningo), for a type of West Indian music or dancing. The exact meaning varies from island to island.

There are two sources of the dances: one Spanish and the other African. Although the main growth was in Cuba, there were similar dance developments which took place in other Caribbean islands and in Latin America generally.

The "rumba influence" came in the 16th century with the black slaves imported from Africa. The native Rumba folk dance is essentially a sex pantomime danced extremely fast with exaggerated hip movements and with a sensually aggressive attitude on the part of the man and a defensive attitude on the part of the woman. The music is played with a staccato beat in keeping with the vigorous expressive movements of the dancers. Accompanying instruments include the maracas, the claves, the marimbola, and the drums..

As recently as the second world war, the "Son" was the popular dance of middle class Cuba. It is a modified slower and more refined version of the native Rumba. Still slower is the "Danzon", the dance of wealthy Cuban society. Very small steps are taken, with the women producing a very subtle tilting of the hips by alternately bending and straightening the knees.

The American Rumba is a modified version of the "Son". The first serious attempt to introduce the rumba to the United States was by Lew Quinn and Joan Sawyer in 1913. Ten years later band leader Emil Coleman imported some rumba musicians and a pair of rumba dancers to New York. In 1925 Benito Collada opened the Club El Chico in Greenwich Village and found that New Yorkers did not know what Rumba was all about.

Real interest in Latin music began about 1929. In the late 1920's, Xavier Cugat formed an orchestra that specialized in Latin American music. He opened at the Coconut Grove in Los Angeles and appeared in early sound movies such as "In Gay Madrid". Later in the 1930's, Cugat played at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York. By the end of the decade he was recognized as having the outstanding Latin orchestra of the day.

In 1935, George Raft played the part of a suave dancer in the movie "Rumba", a rather superficial musical in which the hero finally won the heiress (Carol Lombard) through the mutual love of dancing.

In Europe, the introduction of Latin American dancing (Rumba in particular) owed much to the enthusiasm and interpretive ability of Monsieur Pierre (London's leading teacher in this dance form). In the 1930's with his partner, Doris Lavelle, he demonstrated and popularized Latin American dancing in London.

Pierre and Lavelle introduced the true "Cuban Rumba" which was finally established after much argument, as the official recognized version in 1955.

Rumba is the spirit and soul of Latin American music and dance. The fascinating rhythms and bodily expressions make the Rumba one of the most popular ballroom dances. -- Richard

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June 17, 2002 -- Ballrom salsa/club salsa

I agree that no-one is jealous of ballroom salsa, equally no-one is jealous of club salsa. Each to their own.

Chincub, have you considered the concept of 'development'. just because the something was originally developed from another thing, doesn't mean that the reciprocal cannot happen. Look at the intellectual property rights world. Many patents evolve from prior ones and are shown to be demonstrably better (or worse in some cases). Surely you would acknowledge that a son can teach a father? If both are open to the experience that is. Should one of the two refuse to cooperate then progress will be nil. You use the phrase Latin to use only two of the five Latin (as in ballroom) dances. What about Jive (of which much can be used in salsa), samba (again much can be used in salsa) and paso doble (can someone help me here?). Or are you also saying the salsa was the root of these dances as well? Enough said, your argument has been used so often already in various threads and forums and been thoroughly debunked in the same.

All dancers can gain something from any other type of dance. The harder they look the more they will find that is translatable into another form.

With reference to that other old favourite argument, 'you can only dance salsa if you came from......' pick your own favourite origin of your favourite style of salsa.

I danced with a cuban lady the other week in a club lesson. Advanced group, she couldn't do a cross body lead. She was hopeless, had no balance or timing or ability to follow, her styling was terrible. Okay, she was a beginner wrongly placed in advanced (wish she would go back, she shooses the advanced every time). So, she can dance better than many others in the group who are non-Cuban? I think not. Logic dictates that particular argument is illogical and based on emotive reasoning (hey, while we're at it, I know a a religious cult that is looking for new members). Pick away. Graham.

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June 18, 2002 -- reply to Chincub (ballroom salsa)

Chincub, I recommend you do some research on the history of salsa before making such erroneous statements as "salsa is just a modernized version of son".

Why is it that you negate salsa's non-Cuban influences? Salsa developed outside of Cuba; salsa is salsa because of its other influences that were fused with the Cuban influences, without these other influences Salsa would be Son.

A possible reason as to why you claim that Salsa is just Son is because Salsa developed in New York and not Havana. If Salsa had been created in Cuba then we wouldn't be hearing all these ridiculous statements of "Salsa is Son".

Son is a primary influence in Salsa BUT it does not completely dominate. The Puerto Ricans in NY took the Cuban Son and transformed it. They took it to a new level of musicality and gave it a completely new sound and character.

The Cuban Son is a primary influence in such genres as Cha-Cha-Cha, Mambo, and Timba, and yet SOMEHOW we never the arguments that Timba is really Son or that Mambo is not Mambo but just another "modernized version of Son". Why is that? Chauvinistic nationalism, envy, jealousy, and greed would be my answer. You see Timba, Mambo, etc., did not develop outside of Cuba so therefore there is no need to falsely reclaim a musical genre.

Salsa is a by-product of many Latin musical influences, NOT JUST CUBAN, so PLEASE acknowledge and give respect to the countless non-Cuban latinos that took part in the creation of this wonderful music - to not do so would be unjust.

Chincub, give credit where credit is due. Rogelio

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June 18, 2002 -- Can You Feel Me? by Nina

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June 22, 2002 -- About salsa and ballroom

Before I answer to Rogelios comments I want cover a couple of comments that I read about ballrooom dancing and salsa by some people, let me start by saying that wich ever style of salsa you dance if it is L.A, Cuban or ballroom salsa is ok because everybody chosses the way they want to dance, it is a matter of taste and as longest you have fun it is ok.

I also think that there is a lack of respect between some salsa dancers and balroon dancers and the ones in bettwen, I think salsa dancers should respect ballroom dancers espessially the professional ones that do this for a living because it is very hard, ballroom competission should be in the olympics!!, at the same time i don't agree with some ballroom instructors that try to impose their ways of thinking about salsa dancing by comming to the clubs and look down at people because they don't show that technique (stiffnes) that they have,it would be like if all the salsa club regulares were to attend a ballroom gathering or a partty and were to critisaise everybody for having to much technique but not enough flavour,if some ballroon dancers don't like the way people dance at clubs don't go!!.

But I must tell you I have met many geat ballroom instructors that know and respect latin dancing,what I mean is that asides from knowing the ballroom way they also dance Argentinian tango, sanba from Brazil, they know that the music they call rumba in latin America is call bolero and that it is dance differently, that there is cha cha and cha cha cha, that rumba is also afro cuban or gypsi music and that to teach someone to dance salsa you don't have to train him as a ballroom dancer unles he wanted to.What really helps is that before they teach they explain that there is a difference between Latin ballroom and latin dancing,I guess that the ones that make this a mess to the eye of a beginer salsa dancer that doesn't know if he should attend a ballroom school or take lessons wiht a club instructor are alot of the proffessional salsa instructors not only local ones but also dancers that attend salsa congreses that think that to become a better salsa dancer you have to look more like a ballroom dancer because even though some of them critisise ballroom dancers and they say that they are hardcore salsa dancers??? they are not!!!! every day their style looks more ballroom,ant the truth is that those dancers could never make it in a real ballroom compettition, they would not have enough technique,so they are left in the middle,they could not make it in ballroom and they are not hardcore salsa dancers. Vladimir Aranda

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June 24, 2002 -- Let's make this Topic Progressive: How can Salsa and Latin Ballroom Dancing help each other?

Wow! It's been a while! After reading rather a heated, sometimes, personal debates on my last post, I thought it was time to switch into something more progressive:

So, I fire away:

1. What kind of benefits would ballroom dancing bring to a Salsa dancer? (aside from the fact that it looks good your resume to have many dance different kinds of dance training)?

2. Since ballroom training incorporates a lot of movement and technique training, what can they learn about Salsa? New York Style (as well as Puerto Rican style), in particular, has one of the most extensive repertoire of turn patterns and traditional dances (African-influenced dance, for example) incorporated to it. Again, this is not to say New York style is better than any style--just an example. Also, this is not to say that Salsa does not require extenstive technique work to get better.

3. What can Salseros and Ballroom dancers learn from each other musically, about the way they dance, or move to the music?

Again, although it is inevitable that we'll have disagreements, let's keep this topic progressive as much as possible rather than "this is better than that" type of discussions. I'd like to get everyone's input. Thank you. Teddy Olaso, United Salseros Instructor

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June 25, 2002 -- richard you need a hobby

in response to richard, lol!
my exact comment was "stiff giraffe," and i think you'll agree that the image invoked is not that of a graceful one.
i was referring to a girls point of view simply because i am one and have heard the same from many other "girls."
as far as ballroom style i think we all know that a typical salsa club is not very formal and club salsa is not formal, but ballroom type salsa is. i don't care what type of ballroom style. it's not jealousy that makes one say oh "so and so dances ballroom," in a negative way, it's just that it does look "mechanical".......unless you're very good at it but at times it is very out of place depending on where you go and who you go with. if a group of people all dance ballroom style or "know how to" then at least you can dance with each other but you can't expect girls who are there to be spun and feel sexy to want to suddenly "learn" on the dance floor or try to see how far their neck can stretch while they're spinning. i'm sure regulars can pull it off, but from the point of view of those "girls" who go on weekends, don't compete, enjoy the whole "latin" appeal of it all, hair flying, sexy dances, moving music......sometimes..it's a downer when you're dancing with a guy who'se doing ballroom...sorry -- tired eyes looking in...

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June 26, 2002 -- the Ballroom vs. club debate

Ok after 2 days of reading all the posts let me throw in my 2 cents worth.

First let me say this, before starting in dance, I've been in the martial arts for 17 years. There are a lot of paralells to Karate and dance.

Point one- If I showed a black belt who had been at rank for 1 years and one who had rank for 10 years, you would notice a difference. They're both black belts, but ones moves would look fluid and graceful (relative to the other) and the other's move while technically correct, would seem stiff and rigid. Depending on which one you see, you may or may not decide that style is worth anything.
Its the sames in dance. Some people in ballroom may have only take 6 months of lessons, give em break, it takes longer then that to relax and look pretty. Check on them in 3 years (assuming they've been practicing) I bet you would be happy to dance with them.

Also not everybody who takes ballroom dancing does so to compete and often they are learning multiple dances at the same time. Once again this takes time and they are gonna look stiff and rigid for away until they make the dances their own.

Also, competition is its own little world, these folks have to do everything just so. They are I think the exception and not the rule to ballroom or even club dancing for that matter.

Somebody made mention that its a bummer for a girl to get a ballroom dancer as a partner because they're stiff and rigid, and they don't get that fantasy of the sexy dance, hair whipping thing.
Sorry, but not every guy, or gal for that matter, is going to be able to fufill your fantasy. They can be club, freestyle, ballroom, whatever. There are always going to be diffent degrees of skill and not every dance is gonna be magic. You could get a beginning club style dancer and he would probably not wow you either. But everyone has to start somewhere.

Ballroom schools make there living by being approachable and non-intimidating (well most do in my experience at least). When I started dancing, I knew absolutly nothing other then what my sensei told me, and was because he was dance instructor decades ago. So I went to Arthur Murray and was introduced to a ton of dances. Of these, Salsa is my favorite and the one I work on most. I would not have known to go to a 'just salsa' school in the beginning. So ballroom was responsible for giving you ladies one more potential partner. And what I learned in ballroom also lets me train with club style instructors and keep up just fine.

Ok this thing is starting to ramble, but let me some it up like this. Just like in Karate, where a side kick is a side kick, so long a some universal priniples are observed. Dancing, Club or Ballroom are both good. Yes there are gonna be stiff dancers out there, and yes there going to be people that step on your feet, but this really doesn't have to do with whether they are ballroom or club style. It has to do with the individual an their level of skill, and where skill is involved, so long as the student tries, any type of dance instruction, be it ballroom or club, is going to benefit them. Patrick

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June 26, 2002 -- what are you talking about?

thank you patrick..for nothing.
i agree with everything you said, but that wasn't an answer to the question was it? the question was "why do people say he dances ballroom in a negative way" and "is it jealousy." i gave a very common point of view coming from a "girl." whether it is liked or not is irrelevant. when someone posts a question it is safe to assume they want feedback, even from people like us.... eyes crossed from boredom

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July 10, 2002 -- nina's street vs ballroom

let's start by stating that i am just a layman when it comes to dancing. this whole aurgument/conversation over ballrom vs. salsa/street style seems to all hold very valid points.

the article written by nina 'ballroom vs. street style' is very concise and holds many points that i agree with whole heartedly. ie. needing to dance with passion, allowing the music to move you etc.

where i would question her view and others is that i have observed that the biggest difference between ballroom and street/salsa is in the training one recieves to get to the point where as nina would put it being able to express the music in your dance.

i understand that the majority of street dancers learn growing up with their friends, family etc., there is not much formal training (not as formal as ballroom). ballroom dancers tend to have more formal training (more formal than street/salsa training)on the most part ie. classes, technique, counting etc. could this possibly be the biggest difference between the two? could the difference be in the training approach? what would happen if one could formalize street dance training/learning and put the street thing into formal ballroom training? don't say it can't be done out loud, that would just show your unwillingnes to be open minded.

everyone that i have spoken with always wants to have the confidence, ability, skill to be able to interpret the music the way the music makes them feel and share that feeling with the partner they are dancing with. so how is that different in these two (supposedly) opposing styles? it sounds like to me we all want the same thing.

in martial arts, there are many different styles (karate, kungfu, taekwondoe etc.)and ways to train, even in the same style, at the end of the day most of us have two feet and two hands and we just want to kick, punch, and grapple and be able to defend ourselves. in dance, don't we all wish we could be expressive and be able to interpret the music and make our partners feel our passion?

i say, choose your course of study, try not to be prejudice becuase of your course of study, learn from everyone, life is too short, dance becuase it makes you feel great, and dance with someone else because you want to share that great feeling. if you feel the same, than i hope to ask you to dance in the near future.*smile* -- Age

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July 29, 2002 -- ballroom can help salsa begginers by....

These comments are directed to people who are beggining in any dance in the latin genre. 1st ballroom can help with timming and a proper hold contrary to what people might say about international latin, (its not stiff). The lady and man should have enough tension that the gentleman can telemark the intention of his figure or step. The lady and man should be able to feel each others hip movement through the hold if done properly this is the case in cha cha rumba samba paso mambo and salsa. If a lady's hold is too soft what happens are sloppy movements because the man has to use more force to move that other person. There is no connected-ness. Salsa incooperates nice turning and hip movement with a 123 567 count. International latin can help with hip movement in the salsa (again explain to me how this is stiff!)In the rumba a begginer might move hips back and forth as if trying to hit a ball soley with there hips. The proper way is to move your hip foward and backward which comes from bending in the knee and sucking in your ribs or diaphram. This is really hard and takes a committed spirit to get it, but its fun once youve mastered it. Now im not going to get into every detail because they are a cornucopia of things to take or "borrow" from international latin, but a lot of figures like jive's figure "stop and go"
is the same as salsa's in and out. I have had it easier with salsa because i learned ballroom or i should say learning. I think salsa is an excellent way of warming up for pre-competion for ballroom. I use it before i go to compete because it warms the muscles quickly and and it gets you in the latin mood. Ballroom teachers could learn to accept salsa i think this would be very progressive and the music is similar at times. I like salsa most for the fact that you can make up a step in the 4th and 8th beat and its easy to recover if you loose timming but because ballroom is so "stiff" it will help with strict tempo requirements. Even the standard dances like waltz and quickstep and foxtrot can help with a begginer wishing to dance salsa. A lot of difficult turns in these dances teaches the student to stay with their partner. Salsa would not be salsa if it was danced one partner unequal to the other its a union of 2 persons acting as one. Anyways i think cubans can really dance salsa better than anyone... their like brazilians in soccer born to play, cuban style can be imitated but its just not like a cuban dancing. Really nice to watch. Well thats it. Peter

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August 10, 2002 -- ballroom dancing vs salsa dancing

i must agree with the fact that latin ballroom dancing is not real latin dancing, is just a way of making latin dancing easier for people who like it but didnot grow up with it so they dont have the right feel for it. Being in the military ive been all over the world and ive seen salsa dancing or merengue or chachacha everywhere and i feel proud when i see other people trying to dance real salsa or merengue etc but when i see this ball room competitions i dont see the feeling that most latinos have when they dance salsa or merengue. Even when u see somebody doing all the right turns and hitting the marks and all that you can tell who is a person who grew up with the music and who is somebody who took lessons. And as for cha cha cha let me say this go to a club where they dance salsa and wait till they play a cha cha cha and tell me if its the same as in ballroom dancing, its not. Ball room dancing might be nice to look at but please dont try to say is the same as salsa or merengue, because it just isnt. ARe ballroom dancers more athletic and maybe more trained that club damcers? yes they are but that doesnt make their dancing better than real salsa.-- ismael

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August 14, 2002 -- Some observations

I have read the discussion, but I have failed to read WHAT the differences exactly are. Here are a few observations. (disclaimer: of course there are many shades of gray).

Mother Earth.
The Cubans, and less the NY and LA style ' Club Salsa' dancers, focus onto the ground, onto Mother Earth. it can be seen in other Caribbean dances too, with Merengue being one of the best examples. It is the African way of dancing. Ballroom dancers tend to focus toward the sky. Very obvious in the Waltz and Foxtrot. It is the European way of dancing.

Latin dances are stuck in the middle, because they have both European and African heritage. You cannot do both, so you have to choose. Probably the best example is the Samba, basically two dances which are sharing the same name.

Synchronization
Club Salsadancers seem to move their upper and lower part of the body independently. Feet are following the rhythm, while their arms are doing other things.
Ballroom dancers seem to synchronize more between their upper and lower part body. Imho, that makes their dancing look 'slick'.

Position
Club Salsadancing is all about flirting. The partners are looking into eachothers eyes, playing a game of hard to get (for the record: mostly it IS a game. After the dance is over, so is the game!) That means that the lady is standing upright and is challeging too. The faces of the partners are on the same level.
Ballroom dancers recognize the flirting aspect, but handle it more in a European way. Ladies are standing in the same position as they would do in a Waltz: bending a bit back and moving their face away. They are trained only to receive flirting eyes, but do not dare to -openly- give them. And if they do, it is with consederation.

Improvisation
Club salsa is all about improvisation. Just like Boogie Woogie and Lindy Hop to some extend. Because of this improvisation, Club Salsadancers are able to dance with strangers (almost) regardless of their experience. That is, if the man leads the women correctly and takes her level into consideration.
Ballroom dancers are more into well practiced combinations. Thus, ballroom dancers tend to do clean and complicated combinations, but can only dance with people from the same school and the same training.

Movements
The movements of Club Salsamen are rougher, less subtile than those of Ballroomdancers. Club Salsa dancers move because they move and act spontanious.
Ballroom dancers move, in many cases, more feminen than Club Salsa dancers. Their movement is more subtile, but also thoroughly though-through. Every movement has a reason, which makes Ballroom more slick, more logical, but less spontanious.


So, in fact, I think we are dealing with heritage here. The question is not: "Do you like Club Salsa better then Ballroom Salsa?" I think the question is: "Do you favour the European dance culture over the African or vice-versa?".

I have danced both the European and the African way and I like the latter, as you might have guessed, mainly because of the way of improvisation and synchronization. To me, Salsa dancing is not about great combinations, it is how you can cover up your mistakes.

Ergo: I favour Club Salsa. That doesn't mean that Ballroom Salsa is better or worse. It does mean that it is different. It does also mean that both ways of dancing have a place in this world and that one should not overrule the other. And it means, to conclude my observations, that both worlds will continue to have a very hard time dancing together.

A last remark: The Club Salsadancers have organised themselves against Ballroom influence. Albert Torres announced a new organisation at the Fifth European Salsa Festival in Haarlem, the Netherlands.
Marko

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August 17, 2002 -- Nina, do you feel me?

Dear Nina, I do feel you! When I Salsa with you, I can feel you and you can feel me but I am a man of many passions, so when I rhumba, I shall leave you for another love. There, wing tip to wing tip, soul to soul, heart beat to heart, we soar into a galaxy away from the street you were born. Away from the sweat, the torrid heat and smell of bodies. Please forgive me, even though I know you do not dance just for yourself, there you cannot feel me, so I must turn and go and find my everything some where else.. I am searching and when I find ? Eres Todo En Mi ?, I am complete. -- Richard

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December 27, 2002 -- Ballroom vs. Latin

I must admit I greatly enjoyed going through so many months worth of heated responses posted on this message board. There were a lot of well-structured well-informed arguments as well as a lot of rambling incoherent postings. All were fun to read, nevertheless. Thank you, everyone, for participating in such an interesting topic!

Unfortunately, there were some people who allowed themselves to forget elementary rules of courtesy and let such comments slip from their tongue as comparing Ballroom to Porno (see Ninas article). Ballroom sympathizers did allow themselves to get personal sometimes, or to say that Salsa is easy or sloppy or a street dance (all of which I do not agree with), but none went as far as to say that Salsa is not real dancing (which was said about Ballroom Latin). I truly hope that most of such comments were caused by lack of information and not because of strong (unwarranted) negative feelings towards Ballroom dancers. I believe that it is my duty, as a person who dances and enjoys Ballroom and Latino styles equally well, to address some of these points.

1) Ballroom looks stiff and unnatural.

This comment could only be caused by lack of exposure to high- level Ballroom dancers. I doubt the person who made such comment saw any of such international performances as professional World Cup in Russia or Latin-American World Competition in Miami. Top professional competitors such as Alan Tornsberg look more relaxed than youll ever see in any Salsa club. Any ballroom dancer who makes it to Pre-Championship level or higher in Latin, SHOULD be able to dance in a relaxed and easy way, otherwise he/she just doesnt belong there. NATURALITY is one of the main criteria when dancing Ballroom at a more or less high level.

ANY dance (including Salsa) looks stiff and unnatural until one gains enough command over his/her body to actually relax and start dancing with a certain level of enjoyment. True, it takes more time to start dancing Ballroom in a relaxed, enjoyable way (since Ballroom requires much more concentration on technique, without doubt), but it is very achievable. Ive danced Ballroom for five years, but it is only in the last two that I started to feel that I can stop concentrating on my feet all the time and start enjoying the dance itself and let the music flow through me. In comparison, it only took me about two months to start dancing Salsa with ease. The problem is that many people without enough determination do not stay in Ballroom long enough to start enjoying it to its fullest. Then they go around saying how stiff, unnatural and boring Ballroom is. But the fact it- they simply quit BEFORE they could start enjoying it. Of course, I do not put every Ballroom opponent into this category (since many didnt even TRY Ballroom and many just dont like it no matter how long they danced it), but there are quite a lot of such people among my friends.

2) Ballroom dancers can only dance well-practiced combinations.

Again, this is just a question of level. It IS very hard for beginner to improvise in Ballroom because of restricted set of steps and inability to relax (see above). But when you reach a certain level and steps stop being something discrete and purely technical, there is a LOT of opportunity to improvise. Well-practiced combinations are made for dance competitions, but competitions are not the only thing that makes up Ballroom. There are outings, parties, practices, shows and many other occurrences when Ballroom dancers do not have to dance with the same partner. When I go to one of these, I NEVER make a girl dance the same combination Ive prepared for competition. That would require forcing her to learn while we should have fun. Instead, I start dancing basics with her and gradually increase complexity of what I dance until we reach a certain level when she can still follow me well and the stuff we dance is interesting enough and fun at the same time. Pretty much the same this happens for Salsa- you dance what your partner can dance.

3) Ballroom music sucks.  it always seems to be some horrible crap. I dont know WHY, but it sucks. (Nina)

Nina, I understand that youve done Ballroom too, did you? Then it is hard for me to see how you could have missed a great variety of terrific Ballroom music thats out there. Ive helped out at the club as a DJ for a few years and my personal collection of Ballroom favorites numbers in hundreds now, and I can tell you with all my confidence- this music doesnt suck at all.

Some competitions such as Dancing at the Palais (which is actually FAKE competition, since they put people of entirely different dancing levels against each other) and even Blackpool (the most prestigious World competition there is) do a pretty BAD job with music, I have to admit. In many cases I cannot listen to their music without going to sleep. The reason? In the first case it is saving money to avoid paying royalties to prestigious artists. In the second it is tradition- English always play their boring live orchestra at the Blackpool competition. But its not the only music out there BY FAR!

Marc Antony, Jennifer Lopez, Celia Cruz, S.B.S, Shaft, Arucar Moreno, DLG, Son by Four, Christina Aguilera, Chayanne, Gloria Estefan, Luis Miguel, Shakira, even Pink and Michael Jackson- I could go on forever naming all the great singers who contributed a great deal to Ballroom Latin music. If you havent heard good music, you shouldnt dare to say there isnt any.

Also, somebody here (I think joekim) said that Ballroom Latin music is all English or at best (?) Spanglish. Although I see nothing wrong about song being in English, it is still necessary to comment that it is hard to be further from truth then joekims observation is. I would estimate that at least 70% of all Ballroom Latin music (with exception of Jive) is played to a clear Latin beat with Latin vocals. Most of my favorite songs are distinctively Spanish. Volveras by Alejandro (Rumba), Se Escaparon by Bombou (Cha Cha), Ay Mama by Chayanne (Samba, when slowed down 20%), for example, all have Latin vocals.

4) Ballroom dancers look more feminine.

This is an interesting observation, however unwarranted generalization it might be. One of the goals in Ballroom dancing is to highlight mans masculinity and womans femininity. If a man looks feminine when dancing Ballroom, it is not because he is a Ballroom dancer, but because he is NOT a very good ballroom dancer.

Also this could be a matter of personal perception. For some people more refined, precise mans movement in Ballroom produces an illusion of femininity, while for some it does exactly the opposite. You should see Slavik Kriklivy (amateur Latin-American world champion) dance. How fluid his motion looks like! It seems that the man is made from rubber, while very few would say that he looks feminine in any way. On the contrary, most of my female acquaintances think he is the masculaniest man there is :)

5) i must agree with the fact that latin ballroom dancing is not real latin dancing, is just a way of making latin dancing easier for people who like it but didnot grow up with it so they dont have the right feel for it (ismael)

It is amazing how just one sentence can contain such a number of absurdities- in this case about four.

Then what is _real_ Latin dancing? It doesnt make sense to me. Ballroom Latin is another _style_ of Latin dancing. It has Latin word in front of it. It is danced to four different rhythms of Latin music (or one American, thats why it is Latin-American), originating from Cha Cha Cha (Cha Cha), Bolero (Rumba), Samba and Paso Doble. How more Latin can it be? If by Latin ismael meant just Salsa, then hed be surprised to know just how similar Samba and Salsa are, how many common steps and rhythms they have

Making it easier? This is as far from truth as it can be. I went into ballroom AFTER Salsa because I wanted MORE challenge. I wanted to push my dancing abilities to their limit. I wanted a higher level of energy and a deeper understanding and feeling of dance music. Which ballroom Latin all provided in full. Does it sound like I went in an easy direction? Definitely not.

Did not grow up with it? I have at least two Spanish friends who dance ballroom Latin and they love it. Case closed.

Dont have the right feel for it? Well, they do- trust me. Following music in Ballroom is much harder then in Salsa (mostly because of greater speed and syncopated steps), yet most people keen on this kind of dancing master it. Did ismael mean something else by right feel? Ill be happy to become enlightened.

6) Ballroom dancers dont enjoy dancing as much, their expressions are fake
We see the Ballroom crowd having fun and looking good, but we dont see that fire we look for in the streets. (Nina)

To people making such statement: with all due respect, do you really believe that you possess some sort of telepathic ability? Do you know for sure what happens inside _my_ head when I dance? Do you think you can feel and clearly estimate _my_ passion and enjoyment? Do you possess some sort of dance heat-o-meter that allows you to come to such conclusions?

Now, I cannot really judge _your_ enjoyment of ballroom dancing (which is probably not too high, judging from such remarks), but I can tell you that Latin Ballroom is the style of dancing that turns me on the most, surpassing Salsa or any other style I dance. I love energetic dances and Ballroom is all about energy and pushing your dancing abilities to the limit. When I dance ballroom for some time it starts to feel like some sort of fire is starting to burn inside me. My whole body becomes lighter. My feet start to live a life of their own- just cant stop moving. Tiredness just disappears somewhere- its like I get a second breath. It just feels so great, it is almost like a drug- once you get used to it its impossible to stop. Thats why most ballroom dancers love dancing- not because of showing off, not because of getting to learn complex routines, but because of this mental and physical state, which Nina so accurately classified as fire. You can trust me- expressions of most ballroom dancers are NOT fake. They even show LESS than ballroom dancer really feels, since is a part of DanceSports mental

7) "why do people say he dances ballroom in a negative way"

The only possible reasons are that they either dont like ballroom, or do not understand what ballroom is all about. Unfortunately, in most cases the second reason contributes to negativity. When someone yanks his partner while dancing Salsa, they say maan, your lead is sooo ballroom, while in reality that person is just a bad leader. Ballroom dancers generally tend to possess a very good lead. Ballroom lead is all about feeling your partner, passing energy through your body with maximum efficiency and precision. There is no yanking, jerking, pulling or any other unpleasant attributes in Ballroom lead if the leader is good. In fact, my Ballroom partner often complains that _her_ Salsa partner yanks her and leads her badly! She would never say his lead is so Salsish, though. She just says he is a bad leader- which is exactly what it means.

So, if someone tells me you dance ballroom, I say Well, thank you for the compliment! :)

8) Ballroom is to Street dancing as Porno is to Making love. (Nina)

I am sorry to say that, but this kind of cheap analogy is just insulting. Did you know that analogy is the most dangerous/unrealiable means of leading an argument? Analogy can be skillfully used to distort reality and can be easily reversed to bring negativity to one side of argument. For example, I could say Street dancing is to Ballroom as cheap daub is to Art. Now, we could argue whether it is fair or not to say that (I actually do not mean that), but the damage is already done- Salsa was shown in a negative way, whether it was fair or not. It would be great if we could refrain from using such low tactics of leading an argument.

Personally, ballroom dancing is a love of my life to me. It is definitely not a Porno. Michael

P.S. It would seem that I tend to side with Ballroom dancing in this response, and that it true. Id be happy if there were no sides to take, though. After all- we are all dancers. There are different styles, which some like and some dislike, but it is no reason to say that the style you dont like is not real dancing or such. Most of such remarks were directed against Ballroom dancing, so I felt a need to interfere. I would do the same if someone would debase Salsa or any other dance for whatever reason..

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