First
and foremost, those who dance Salsa with a ballroom style flavour
(overly extended arms, legs, unatural hip action, etc.) have a right
to do so the way they want to.
However,
I also have the right to say that it looks so . . . (beep--edited.)
Yuk! While some will argue that New York style (Puerto Rican style?)
and L.A. style is very ballroom - and some will directly contradict
that - the good dancers of these styles do retain the Afro-Cuban or
carribean "relaxed" feel to their Salsa dancing. The same
goes for Cuban/Casino and Colombian style Salsa. Don't get me wrong,
New York and L.A. style are probably the most challenging to learn
choreographically as it incorporates many modern and old elements
from jazz, hip-hop, tap, African dance (and even ballroom) to its
choreography. Those who dance very ballroom style salsa, however --
the movements looks so stiff and facial expressions so artificial
- and as most popular Salsa songs are about love, separation, longing,
etc., - it just does not make sense!!! If I'm not mistaken, ballroom
comprises of many dances, and I'm sure they all don't dance it the
same way or with the same flavour - so why the heck can't they do
the same with Salsa? O.K., so the comments seem harsh, and believe
it or not, I've seen how hard ballroom dancers train, and their discipline
is not in question, but maybe their artistic sensibilities are.
And maybe
this one of the reasons why many people don't like ballroom dancing.
What looks beautiful to ballroom dancers look ugly to Salsa dancers
and vice versa. Hmmmm. Frank
May
2, 2002
Hi Rose, Great Email! I just posted this also to www.myDanceFriends.com
with reference to www.TOSalsa.com and link to your site: http://www.dancescape.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=13
I do
agree that in the Ballroom world, there has been a trend towards more
"tricks" and outward expression to the audience, rather
than inward expression and feeling of intimacy towards the dance partner.
Perhaps this may be the effort to have Dance more like Sport and the
lobbying efforts to get competitive Ballroom Dancing in the Olympics
... so this has perhaps taken away from the artistry, artistic expression/emotional
connection between two dancers.
I have
come from the competitive Ballroom DanceSport world, and only recently
became exposed to the world of Salsa through the Berlin nighclub in
Toronto, as well as through SalsaTeam Canada performances at Strictly
Dancing Downtown in Burlington. Having seen and experienced Salsa
there from professional and amateur Salsa dancers... and I LOVED IT
-- the energy, the connection between dancers, the fast spins and
overhead hand movements. It made me want to learn Salsa!!!
I haven't
seen examples of "Ballroom-style Salsa" and specifically
those dancers mentioned by Frank -- my exposure has really been only
on Latin DanceSport (Cha Cha, Rumba, Paso Doble, Jive, Samba). If
there is video footage of this, or if I were able to see those dancers
that are being referred, at least I could give a more informed and
objective view. How's that for a politically correct answer? ;-)
Robert
T.
www.myDanceFriends.com
www.dancescape.TV
May
2, 2002 -- ballroom
Nobody
said Ballroom is difficult to dance. I am sure they have studied years
to do the things they do. And I am sure they are incredible athletes.
But I am talking about the Dancesport or Ballroom dance competitions
I see on T.V. What music are they following when they do the dips,
the really fast turns, the posing and gesturing. I am sure beginner
Ballroom dancers are taught the basic steps. But the professional
dancers seemed to have graduated past the music, that's why I say
they dance the same.
GRH says the competitions are only small part of Latin Ballroom dancing.
But I am sure the really advanced dancers and teachers have made names
for themselves only through competitions. Does anyone prefer Ballroom
Samba and Ballroom Tango to Brazilian Samba or Argentine Tango? Or
did these Ballroom teachers fail to mention it is different? And do
you they really teach social dancing? At least, least they could teach
the students not to make such big steps and spins as to hit everybody
on the dancefloor. I mean, you can't dance the same way as you dance
in your ballroom school as you do in a nightclub. Second, have you
noticed Most of theLatin music they play is not very Latin at all,
it's either in Spanglish or really bad elevator music. I sure they
must play a lot of the really bad LA "salsa" songs "Carelss
Whisper" and "Lady".
I don't agree with there is a conspiracy against Cuban salsa dancing.
But it seems to me that the Salsa teachers here can only teach what
they know. But teachers here have some background in Latin Ballroom
dancing or they don't know anything about Cuban dancing. So, naturally
they are interested in promoting the styles they teach. All of teachers
in
Toronto have said they they studied in New York, LA or Puerto Rico.
But none have studied in Cuba. Why is that? And why aren't Cuban dancers
(not Cuban-American dancers) invited to these Salsa Congresses. I
am sure most would agree Cuban music played a large part in Salsa
music. Chincub
May
2, 2002 -- Monica's response to Frank (Why does Ballroom Style Salsa
Look So Artificial?)
Frank, you obviously need to open your eyes and take a look around
you. First of all, as a former competitor of ballroom dancing, I can
state that one of the main factors that ballroom comprises of is artisism
and creativity. I dont know what kind of mechanical and emotionless
ballroom dancers you have been exposed to, but for the most part,
ballroom dancing; at least when it is danced properly, is not only
a dance of precise technique, sharp movements and beautiful posture
and poise, but an expression of emotions, much like salsa.
I made the switchover from ballroom to salsa for a few reasons, but
none have anything to do with ballroom's lack of expression. Have
you ever watched a professional ballroom couple? If so, you can clearly
see the manner in which they conduct their movements with all that
they have; everything inside of them, and every last speck of emotion
they are feeling. Their passion visibly shines through, and it cannot
be ignored. They dance for the music, for their soul, and definitely
from the heart.
That said, when someone like me who has an extensive ballroom dancing
background (as well as ballet, jazz, hip hop, modern, etc) goes on
to dance salsa, yes, the transition may be difficult at first. However,
that is not to say that the dancer cannot take these other forms of
dance and use them to their advantage while dancing salsa. People
who dance 'uptight' and 'stiff' are simply uptight and stiff, for
whatever reason. That does not make them people who dance 'ballroom
style salsa'. Ive seen these people myself I can tell you that it
has nothing to do with their training in ballroom, but simply their
ability to adapt to different forms of dance. And, if they do happen
to have good posture, it proves to be beneficial to them, as it adds
class to their dancing and individual style.
Overall, as you stated yourself, dancing salsa is about the emotions
and feelings involved, and the expression of both. Please do not place
people in categories simply because they have had training in other
forms of danceThere are people who feel the music and people who
dont, but it has nothing to do with whether they have danced ballroom
or not -- Monica
May
2, 2002 -- For the love of Ballroom and Salsa
Dear
Rose,
Congratulations
on a very thoughtful and factual rebuttal to Chincub. Truth needs
to be told and I have great faith that time will reveal the truth.
One of the perils of having a completely open discussion is that we
have to bear with the chafe in order to get to the wheat.
I think
people get into trouble when they begin to insist that others dance
the way that they do. Perhaps this could be extended beyond the world
of dancing. Blind faith and opinions bring about all the pain, heartache
and suffering around us. Democracy and freedom of speech also carries
with it the responsibility to weigh one?s words carefully.
Let us
ponder and reflect upon some of the phrases expressed. Phrases such
as ?overly extended arms, legs, unatural hip action, etc.,? Firstly,
the use of ?etc.,? ought to be avoided as this not a precise expression.
One could make an argument that dancing naked is natural as after
all we are born naked. Yet we do not dance naked, does that make us
un-natural when we dance fully clothed. From whence has there been
a standard set about the sensibility of art? Do Salsa dancers not
train equally hard and by whose standards are dancers to be judged
on how hard they train?
Let us
perhaps visualize this. A cellist begins practicing on a cello. Soon
it becomes an instrument of preference as the cellist becomes familiar
with all the sound it makes and how to cause it to sing in the way
the cellist wants it to. There are many other great cellos around
but the cellist favours her own instrument as she is familiar with
it. Now, is she familiar with it because she likes it or she like
it because she is familiar with it?
In many
ways we may hold steadfast to the style of a dance because we are
familiar with it. Do we like it because we are familiar with it or
we are familiar with it because we like it?
"
I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance
Better than Myself...? Mikhail Baryshnikov"
P.S.
Perhaps it is time to change the title of this forum to "For
the love of Ballroom and Salsa". Richard
May
3, 2002 -- Response from Joekim: unaturalism and cellos
For Richard:
What if the cellist believes the only way to play the cello is his
way and he has the power to make peole believe so. He becomes popular
in his own country and thereby negating the people who taught him
and people who play cellos in other countries. That is the story of
Latin Ballroom. Each person doesn't dance so orginally as you think.
Most social dancers dance like their teachers.
For Monica:
Cha Cha Cha, not Cha-Cha, is actually from Cuba. The original way
to dance Cha Cha Cha is from Cuba. So, Latin Ballroom Cha Cha Cha
is a variation on the original. Latin Ballroom Rhumba, is actually
a Cuba Son, but they put the name Rumba to make it sound more sexy.
Rumba is a form of Afro-Cuban music and dance. And you can actually
argue that Salsa is a form of Cuban son. It is the SAME beat. So,
when Ballroom dancers dance their Rhumba, actually it is a form of
salsa. So, they have been dancing to salsa and they don't even know
it. In Cuba, still many people call Salsa Son. So, actually, while
Ballroom dancers pretend that Salsa and Latin Ballroom are different
things. The dancing is certainly different, but the music is the same.
To Rose:
Of course, there is a more showy form of Argentine Tango, a kind of
show Tango for export. But this show Argentine Tango is very very
very different from the Latin Ballroom Tango. Also, keep in mind,
there are Cuban and Colombian show salsa dancers too. They do tricks
and different of spins too, but no flips or dips though. Cuba and
Colombia have more social dancers than in Canada. But you can't compare
a New York style or LA style dancer who has studied professionally
with Cuban or Colombian normal people. You have to compare professional
dancers with professional dancers. You can't compare Juan (Joe Blow,
a normal guy from Cuba) with Francisco Vasquez or someone like that.
You have to compare studio trained or school taught dancers or preformance
dancers with people are similar to them in other countries.
May
4, 2002 -- Latin vs. Ballroom
A long,
heated discussion! I have nothing against ballroom dancing. In fact
I admire their precision, elegance and skill. I wish I could spin
like they do. I dance Cuban and NY style and it would be hypocritical
to deny that the LA and NY style retain many elements from ballroom
dancing, BUT add the sensual street style and borrow from many other
dances. If you are debating where to get salsa lessons, please don't
go to a ballroom! There is nothing more comical than seeing a stiff
couple waltz around a dance floor without regards to other couples
around them, doing poses and dips that ARE NOT GOING WITH THE MUSIC
and look awkward. I have nothing against dips. In fact, I love them,
but the main purpose of a dancer should be to go with the music (dip
when the song breaks or the music ends). So don't worry about your
toe pointing and your tip-toe stance and have fun. Shake your hips,
roll your shoulders, play with your hair. Once you get the flavor
and the escense of the dance, you can take ballroom lessons for elegance
and technique. Que rico el mambo! Diego
May
4, 2002 -- Frank's Response to Monica . . .
I understand
your message completely and I see where you can possiby not totally
comprehend what I am trying to say, but you can you totally see what
I am saying - or does anyone else can put it in better words? Bad
artistry is bad artistry regardless of what dance it is; it just so
happens that most people from ballroom background who dance Salsa
in Toronto, do lack to Afro-Cuban elements involved in their dance.
I never said good posture makes you look stiff, and I would never
claim either that straight posture is better than a more relaxed natural
posture. I am talking mainly about people who do international Latin
ballroom "style" to Salsa music. Where is the artistic impression
of figure eight hip movement or walking like a giraffe when the music
is so passionate, or there even no musical accents to warrant it?
I am not saying that musicality is only deprived in ballroom dancers
who dance Salsa as everyone suffers from it. I'm sorry, although I
am an average dancer, I go out it in the clubs a lot and I have a
background in music--and NO ONE in Toronto that dances Salsa with
a ballroom flavour comes even close to the musicality involved I have
many of the top dancers and instructors in Toronto demonstrate. This
is not to say that an individual can not evolve into becoming good
musically. In fact, most of the things I have observed (and there
is a possibility that I have not seen the good ones which I can give
to you), most of the Salseros who dance a very ballroom style - this
is what you'll see: Hand popping, figure eight movements, dip, sudden
burst of energy, locked arms, hops, --for no apparent reason in the
music - sure they have the right to do so - but please you can't possibly
tell me that there's artistry on that? As I've mentioned ballroom
dancing discipline is not in question as I know nothing of ballroom
dancing (although I am familiar with its structure and highly political
judging system in competition - Salsa is probably no exception). As
you will probably agree, there is good and bad in every dance - do
you think its entirely possible that those who do go into Salsa actually
need to take Salsa lessons from people who have actually taken time
specialize in Salsa (Soles, Vladimir ?, Stephanie Gurnun, Jennifer
and Giovanni, Giovannie Torres, UnitedSalsas, Dance To Live, etc,
etc, etc.
May
4, 2002 -- For the love of Ballroom and Salsa
Dear
Frank,
You
have really gone out on a limb this time. How can you categorically
state that those who danced ballroom who dance Salsa in Toronto lacked
artistry. Every accomplished ballroom dancer that I personally know
of are superior Salsa dancers. Furthermore, have you really interviewed
Salsa dancers to determine whether they danced International Latin
Ballroom? And if they do, how many years of International Latin Ballroom
and at what level. So you do have a background in music. With your
background in music, you are just an average dancer! What makes you
think that these hand popping figure eight movements, dips, sudden
burst of energy, locked arms, hops actually came from their extensive
ballroom training background? Are you just assuming that that is where
it came from since you "know nothing of ballroom dancing".
You know nothing of ballroom dancing but you have anointed yourself
a critic of ballroom dancers and Salsa dancer who in your judgement
dances a ballroom style. Do you even realize that some of the top
Salsa Dance Instructors you have listed has strong ballroom training.
Frank, you do owe ballroom dancers a sincere apology. Incidentally,
this is nothing personal as my dance background was exclusively Salsa
and I did learn and still am learning from many of the instructors
you mentioned. Recently, I began to take International Ballroom lessons.
I do find that my Salsa dance background helps in learning International
Ballroom. Rhumba, which belongs to one of the International Latin
Ballroom dance group is very sensual appeal if danced properly. Finally,
musicality is musicality, it is a developed art which can be applied
to ballroom or Salsa.
This
is in reply to Joekim:
Joekim,
you have raised a "what if" question. A "what if"
question does not really warrant a reply. Secondly, I frequently sense
that you tend to politicise Art. There is a flaw in your logic. A
brilliant Cellist does not simply become one because he believes that
he is so. And because he believes that he is brilliant, he can persuade
others to do so as well. A Cellist who has a commanding presence in
music is most likely too busy playing at recitals and concerts. History
tells us that politicians, however, do misuse or abuses music for
their purpose. Wagner is a genius composer. Hitler laid claim to his
music as did some communists. Joekim, are you a dancer or a politician?
Perhaps you feel that the world is against the various strains of
South American and Island Salsa, let me assure you, it is not. If
memory serves me correctly, Casino dancing was illegal not too long
ago in Cuba. Banned by a politician!
"
I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance
Better than Myself... Mikhail Baryshnikov"
Richard
May
6, 2002 -- Latin Ballroom as Art?
Richard,
My "what if" is actually a reality. Wagner might be art.
But you really think Ballroom dancing
is an art? Then I guess synchronized swimming must be art. Also, do
you really think art is free from from politics? The popularity of
artists are bond by fashion and by the prevailing tastes. Dance and
music are shaped by economics and culture. Nobody said the world is
against Latin Salsa.
I am just saying Latin Ballroom dancing is not very Latin. But why
do ballroom dancers insist it is? When Ballroom dancers call Cha Cha
Cha Cha-Cha and they call it Rhumba instead of Cuba son, I think it
has been already politicized. There were no Cubans in England to tell
them otherwise, so Latin Ballroom just became Latin dancing. Frank
and Irene Castle saw how the black people danced in the United States,
made it more digestible for white Americans. Same case here.
If a person wants to look for dance lessons, usually most of studios
are Ballroom studios. And Latin Ballroom teachers can only teach what
they know because they can't Cuban salsa dancing. I am just a person
who feels that popular culture should be examined and not taken for
granted as true. Joekim
May
6, 2002 -- Comments
Frank: As far as the artistry of the people you see on the floor who
do balroom figures, I fear you have no understanding of what the moves
actually mean. As you said, you are an average dancer, so I don't
hold that against you.
I recommend you find a "salsa styling" class/workshop to
acquire basic understanding of hand/hip movements. Then you can apply
these techniques in your dancing and maybe become a better than average
dancer.
Dancers usually do not perform out of context moves unless they are
really, bad tasteless dancers without a musical ear. Before you rush
to critizice others, you should videotape yourself dancing and then
dare to watch. Michael
May
6, 2002 -- Response to Richard
When
I mentioned something about not knowing anything about ballroom dancing,
it does not mean I am not educated about dance. I have background
in ballet and hip-hop, and I can tell you for a fact (and I know the
individuals I see learned what they learned from ballroom dancing).
I am beginner in Salsa--the figures are fairly easy to learn, but
the partner work and Afro flavour is harder element to acquire, unless
you have a background in African dance. Again, WHERE IS THE ARTISTRY
AND MUSICALITY INVOLVED whenever doing highly exaggerated moves that
have nothing to do with the music? Here is a point by point example
of what I mean . . . there are about at least 8-15 instruments in
Salsa music alone, and here is what you see...
1. rhythmic changes within the song structure
2. Dips, Flips, Hand pops, foot extensions without any relationship
to the music, or ANY OF the musical instruments in the music (for
that matter, even regular Salsa people suffer from this)
3. One Dimension dancing - it always looks like they are on drugs
or had a caffeine overdose
. . to mention a few
And yes, I am aware that some of the instructors I have mentioned
do have a ballroom training, but for the ones I have mentioned to
you, I don't think ANY of them would dance Salsa as if they were doing
a high-speed Rumba! Frank
May
6, 2002 --Monica's response to Frank (written in extreme frustration)
Richard
was right, Frank, you really have gone out on a limb. The nerve you
have to actually criticize something that you cannot possibly understand,
as well as something you obviously have no taste in yourself. You
stated, WHERE IS THE ARTISTRY AND MUSICALITY INVOLVED whenever doing
highly exaggerated moves that have nothing to do with the music? Frank,
it is high time you took some time to develop your own artistry and
creativity, in order to appreciate the dancing of others. How can
you make such a senseless statement that completely contradicts your
own theories? You say ballroom dancers lack creativity when dancers
make certain movements or as you say exaggerated moves, how do you
know it is not a reflection of their own feelings and emotions? How
can you say it has nothing to do with the music? If they are feeling
something, they translate and interpret it into their dancing, and
in my opinion, this is a beautiful thing that cannot be taught, not
judged. Technique, yes, can be evaluated, as it is something meant
to be exact, precise and whatnot. However, when a dancer dances from
the soul it cannot be criticized. It is similar to someone trying
to criticize poetry; it simply cannot be done. How can one's feelings
be questioned?
You also made the following remark that made me laugh endlessly NO
ONE in Toronto that dances Salsa with a ballroom flavor comes even
close to the musicality involved I have many of the top dancers and
instructors in Toronto demonstrate Oh really Frank. I apologize for
having to be so blunt with you right now, but someone needs to snap
you back into reality and out of the little bubble you have been floating
in which would explain your isolation from good dancers. To make such
a comment as this one simply proves the ignorance and lack of brain
power you must possess. What on earth does a background in ballroom
have to do with musicality? Enough said, your ridiculous comment speaks
for itself.
All in all, (poor little misguided Frank), there is no need for jealousy
toward the higher skilled dancers, and we don't blame you, as you
are a self-proclaimed average dancer. Your background in music gives
you a good ear for the rhythm and beat breakdown in salsa music, congratulations;
we're all very impressed. However, it will not improve your own creativity,
so just GIVE IT UP!!! I think I speak for many of us who are reading
this ongoing debate. Perhaps you should focus your time and energy
on something more productive, like becoming a better dancer yourself
(both artistically and technically) And then we may possibly take
your opinions and dim-witted comments into consideration.
May
7, 2002 -- Response to Monica and Food for thought
Monica:
If dancing is about an individual reaction and expression to the music,
why do all ballroom dancers dance the same? If dancing is about peoples'
emotional reaction from their soul to the music, then there must be
all of people with the exact same soul. It is a pity that most people
have an Eurocentric
attitute to Latin dancing, when Europe was not were this music originated.
For different view about the origins of salsa, go to : www.salsacasino.com/history/andres.html
Another
point about the Berlin Salsa competition. Here is some food for thought.
If most of the judges and salsa teachers have never studied with Cubans
or been to Cuba, how can they judge Cuban Salsa dancing? Have any
Cubans or Cuban bands (not miami, a lot of changes have taken in Cuba
since the
revolution) been invited to any of these Salsa Congresses? Maybe because
they would ruin everything because they are so good. Salsa judges
should realize, the most crowd pleasing dancers are not always the
best dancers. go
to www.salsapower.com/esquinacasinero/04_19_01.htm for more unbiased
info about judging a salsa competition -- Chincub
May
7, 2002 -- Response of Monica and your offended kind...
You talk
about going out on a Limb - maybe you should notice how your own limbs
move and see if it has any relevance to music ...
Wait...
I won't go here (nice try, Monica). Despite our differences in opinion,
not one of my e-mail personally attacked you or anyone who disagreed
with me.
Its you
who need to open your mind...despite the fact that I don't necessarily
agree with everything you say, I do see some of the value of things
you are saying.
And as
far as instructors are concerned, why don't you approach the instructors
you have in mind - why don't YOU approach them and tell them that
they have ballroom style of Salsa and see what kind of response you
get.
O.K.
so you've won... I don't debate with close minded people. Frank
May
7, 2002 -- Lating Dancing
I will
like to make a comment. I per se do not know much about ballroom dancing
as I do SALSA. I will give you my opinion on SALSA.
For me
salsa is a way to express my feelings, a way to put aside the problems
of the everyday torments that we face in life. Many people in this
forum do not remember what is the real reason why they go to a salsa
club: TO DANCE, period! Or there are other reasons why we do it: some
may be stocking people so that they can have a one-night-stand, or
hoping to meet their "true love", or may be because they
feel lonely and have nothing better to do.
I will
like to considered myself an OK dancer, am not a Teddy or Angus type
but I like to believe that I bring my own falvour to the dance. People
say that when I dance it tends to be full of emotions. I'm pretty
sure that a lot of ballroom dancers have this quality that I mentioned.
Remember, no one taught me how express my feeling in the dance floor
or took clases for it: It just simply ME!!
Everyone,
I say it again: The final outcome of going to "Salsa Club"
is to DANCE and have a good time and not go so that we judged the
other person and the style that he/she dances. Leave that kind of
b---s--t at home and celebrate dancing -- Amazed
May
8, 2002 -- Monica's response to a person of ignorance
Frank,
now you've officially done it, you have succeeded to frustrate me
with your ignorance. Your hypocrital comments are of no value to me
because you have actually called ME, who is trying to open YOUR eyes,
closeminded.
"Maybe you should notice how your own limbs move and see if it
has any relevance to music ..."
#1. That was an immature cheap shot, and was above all, senseless.
You said so yourself that you have not attacked anyone...or was that
just you contradicting yourself?
#2. You have obviously missed my point. As 'amazed' said, we dancers
go to salsa clubs to have FUN...Not to be critisised, not to be watched,
not to be judged by innexperienced and highly critical people like
yourself. Obviously this has nothing to do with ballroom dancing anymore...it
has to do with you thinking that you have done and seen it all, and
that every dancer belongs in a certain category. For instance, as
stated by you, 'if you have a ballroom dancing background, you present
the following: Overly extended arms, figure eight hip movements, fake
expressions, no rhythm, no emotions, and oh, this is my favorite,
'sudden bursts of energy' So now you tell me....who is closeminded?
I suggest you go back to my previous posts and re-read the point of
was trying to get at. And if that is too difficult for you to comprehend,
let me re-iterate my point: Dancing comes from the heart and soul,
so for god's sake just get over it and get on with your life! Monica
May
9, 2002 - Frank's response to Monica
Person of Ignorance Response of Monica
Exactly
the type of response I expected. I
rest my case. :-)
May
10, 2002 -- know what you are talking about
WHOW! I think that the saing people with litle knowledge are dangerous
is very true in this case. Mr frank i think you need to do a litle
more dancind rather than comment on things you have never tried or
done or even seen live.Maybe you dont know that every dance in latin
ballroom as a significance,and each is danced with different expressions,a
dance is interperted different by every one the point is how well
they can do it and come close to the ideal expression to what the
dance means and portrais.Like passo-doble -do you know what the dancer
are trying to exppress there?let me know?.O
One thing
i can say in the salsa scene people critisize ballrom,but that shows
how low and unprofessional they are because ballroom people dont critisize
salsa they admire and respect the dancers.
Why dont
you take Josie Neglia do you think she is stiff.Well if you dont know
she was and is a great ballroom dancer and she deffinately is one
of the best salsa dancers now, and those teachers you took lessons
from half of them are ballroom trained.
so frank
before you go and make judgment know what the hell you are talking
about becase it shows that you have no clue in what dancing is as
for Monica she knows what she is talking about i bet she has fun out
there dancing not critisizing like you, you have made some comments
that you do not know what the meaning is or know how to do them or
teach them IE..(overly extented arms,natural hip action and the one
that did it for me is that they have no artistic sensibilities) what
a joke LOL!! -- RT
May
10, 2002 -- ballroom vs salsa
Hey Rose!
Boy this section is heated.
I finally took some time to read all the arguments and there are some
good ones. Mind you, I have my own two cents to add. I do agree with
the fact that you can't compare salsa and ballroom visually because
the both give off different vibes. There has been alot of talk about
ballroom dancers looking 'stiff' but nothing has been said about how
they may interpret salsa looking 'sloppy' due to our body movement(ballroom
dancers are very sharp and precise). Salsa is one of the few dances
were turning pro can happen in 6months of starting (I think that may
partially be due to other dances having a more stuctured ladder to
climb when tyring to achieve pro). Now before you jump on me, remember
that I dance 100% salsa and have very little interest in persuing
a ballroom career. I have taken lessons before in ballroom and ended
up dropping out because I found it very restrictive. If I wanted to
moonwalk across the floor into the splits and then spin my partner
into a body roll, I felt that ballroom wasn't the place (but depending
on what level you want to achieve in SALSA, there are benifits to
taking ballroom for technique). Now at the competiton level, Ballroom
has regulations that must be respected in terms of posture technique
ect. but in salsa if it looks good (which is partially why we have
so many different styles) it counts.
Now the categories that are judged in salsa competitions are the same
as in ballroom (or pretty close). Who do you think would score higher
if you placed a salsa couple in a ballroom contest or a Ballroom couple
in a salsa contest?....you would be very surprised. All in all, some
people like apples and some like oranges.....there will always be
conflict when you try and mix them due to people being bias about
what they love....www.salsation.ca...focused -- Orville Small
May
11, 2002 -- For the love of Salsa and Ballroom
Joekim,
Wagner
is not Art. Wagner is a person, a classical musician, whose compositions
displays a depth of artistry that tugs at the very soul and heart
strings of listeners. Both Ballroom dancing and synchronized swimming
are artful creations of movement and motion through space. It is very
intentional, deliberate, highly structured and distinctively designed
to capture our imagination.
Dancing
is a very personal expression and experience. Each one of us has individualistic
perceptions about an art such as dance. Some of these perceptions
and feelings are deeply rooted in our cultural background. It is important
to recognise these comforts, fears and biases. It is the same kind
of fear and animosity that a person may feel about a genre of music
such as hip hop or for that matter, throat singing. Due to these biases,
one may not resonate emotionally with ballroom dancing and synchronized
swimming, however, others do, and it is disrespectful to criticise
or to heap scorn on the artistic preferences of another person or
a group. Some of the comments I have read in previous posts, for example
? (a) they are not Latin; and (b) that they are ballroom dancers teaching
ballroom-style Latin dance. ? borders on racism.
I did
not state that art is free from politics. Because it is not free of
politics does not mean that we should accept it. Taking it a step
further would see persecutions of artists, burning of books, banning
of dancing and music for political or tyranical causes. I urge every
intelligent reasonable thinking person to constantly strive to remove
art from the influences of politics.
Latin
is a language known as early as 500 B.C. Latin Literature is a minor
part of what Romans of the Empire had to read. Compared with Greek,
Latin Literature is small, compared with English Literature, it is
minute. Latin American is a term used in reference to a region predominantly
in Central and South America. International Latin Ballroom is a term
widely used to reference five dances. Cha-Cha, Rhumba, Jive, Paso
Doble and Samba. The proper terminology is ?International Latin Ballroom?.
I see no confusion there, none whatsover. After all, the five dances
mentioned previously are not referred to as ?Latin American Ballroom?.
Incidently, the other term in common use is ?American Ballroom?. The
word ?Latin? originated in Europe, the word ?International? is used
to further define and add clarity to this group of dances.
It is,
I believe, a matter of mental attitude. One could be proud of the
fact that five dances were adopted, though in a changed format Internationally,
or in the U.S.A. as in American Ballroom, or you can continue to raise
objections that it is not an exact replica, therefore, no one should
dance International Latin Ballroom the way it is being danced. To
do so would be as comical as the Chinese raising issues with spaghetti
being not the same as Chinese Noodles and therefore no one ought to
eat it.
The simple
retort could be ?It is okay, you go dancing the way you want, I?ll
dance the way I want!? And by the way, I do like the way "Argentinian
Tango" is danced.
At the
very beginning, I took Salsa lessons from a place in Toronto, as well
as from another dance instructor, a South American emigrant. Ironically,
the instructor at this location, who shall remain nameless, so put
me off by his tirades against other forms of Salsa, I left and without
regrets. I found it ludicrous that one Latino should be casting dispersions
on another Latino. I went there for fun, not to be drawn into the
politics of Salsa. I suggest that you smile appreciatively at the
way non-Cubans dance Cha-Cha, Cuba son, oooopppsss, I am sorry Cha
Cha Cha, and you may gain more followers.
Chincub,
Only
a blantantly biased, completely ignorant or a person that has no knowledge
about another dance, could come out with such a statement or rectorical
question ?why do all ballroom dancers dance the same?? After all,
sameness is exactly that. It is highly unlikely that a person even
walks the same way as another person, let alone dance the same.
Your
theme has been very consistent, it is Eurocentric, or non-Cuban, because
it is non-Cuban, it is no good. I am very sure that this line of thinking
is not representative of Cubans at large. It is merely the philosophy
of Chincub at work. Would the judging have resulted in a different
outcome in the Berlin Salsa competition, even with seven Cuban judges
involved? I saw the finalists and their performances. I believe your
argument is a moot one.
Frank,
We are
all learning, day by day, do not judge us early, or judge at all.
Dancers have an active part in the composition of all dances and they
make transformations of it. There will always be a tension between
structure, emotion, and punctual interaction between dance and music.
The day when you have learnt all about Ballroom, Salsa, on how to
develop the relationship between dance and music, then come and be
our COLLABORATIVE choreographer.
"
I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance
Better than Myself... Mikhail Baryshnikov"
Richard
May
14, 2002 -- Perspective
Folks,
this discussion is enlightening, yet hopeless in reaching a conclusion.
I have several friends with extensive ballroom and some salsa training.
They tell me that many dance partners commented that their salsa is
a lot better than most dancers.
On the other hand, when my friends dance ballroom, their partners
do not see any hint of skill that's a result of salsa training. Michael.
May
16, 2002 -- Response to Michael's - Perspective article
It is
interesting that you mention the idea of backward-compatability with
regards to dance style and quality.
'I HAVE
SEVERAL FRIENDS WITH EXTENSIVE BALLROOM AND SOME SALSA TRAINING. THEY
TELL ME THAT MANY DANCE PARTNERS COMMENTED THAT THEIR SALSA IS A LOT
BETTER THAN MOST DANCERS. WHEN MY FRIENDS DANCE BALLROOM, THEIR PARTNERS
DO NOT SEE ANY HINT OF "SKILL" THAT'S A RESULT OF SALSA
TRAINING'
I require
further clarification of the meaning of the word "SKILL",
in this statement. I am not sure what you mean by "skill".
By definition,
salsa is, by its technical merits a different dance then any of the
Big 5, (Rhumba, Cha Cha Cha, Jive, Paso Doble, and Salsa) "International
Latin Style" dances. [If you don't agree with me - please explain]
If you
mean skill to be counter-body movement - please clarify.
If you mean it to be ability to dance with correct timing - please
clarify.
If you mean the ability to lead and/or follow more clearly - please
clarify.
If you mean skill to be something other than the above stated - PLEASE
CLARIFY.
Comparing
the skill set involved in salsa and ballroom, then to say ballroom
skills can help salsa skills but not the opposite is bordering on
arrogance, so I hope that was not your intent. If however, you intended
for ballroom to seem superior to salsa I don't agree. Yes, ballroom
has different skill sets than salsa but whether the skill sets involved
in ballroom are "BETTER" than the ones found in salsa is
definitely open for debate.
I feel Salsa and Ballroom is like comparing bacon-wrapped filet mignon
and porterhouse steak with shrimps... (sorry I'm hungry) Both have
remarkable flavour and texture but they are both profoundly different.
Also, how they aim to please takes different courses, but on their
highest levels and in their best quality - they are surely equals.
Some
ballroom dancers tell me that they take salsa to improve their rhythm
in "Ballroom" dances... (which dances, they did not specify).
If you feel that there is validity to that statement I am curious
to hear your ideas.
Personally,
I took ballroom lessons before learning salsa, and I do agree the
training involved with counter-body movements and general partner-work
can help any budding salsa dancer ease through that initial learning
curve immensely. (When I first saw the salsa step, New York/L.A. style,
it reminded me of Rhumba so it made learning the concept easier).
But from what I know in salsa, if I had done it the other way, (to
learn salsa first then learn Ballroom), I'm sure it would have helped
just as equally. [to clarify I dance on 1 - New York/L.A. style patterns]
I'm sure I would have said, "Oh, that Rhumba basic looks very
similar to my salsa basic"...
So what's
the point of all this you ask?
..umm....
PLEASE
CLARIFY what you mean by skill for ballroom helping salsa but salsa
skill not helping ballroom... I'm curious to hear more about your
thoughts on that because personally, I DON'T AGREE....
Regards,
Erik
Let the
debates.... BEGIN
May
17, 2002 -- To Teddy & Salsaeros
I dance
ballroom and salsa and i like both. I regularily attend classes with
united salsaeros but my private ballroom teacher hates salsa and calls
it street dancing that came from the brothels. Do I agree with her
hmmmm somewhat. Salsa is a lot of fun and a great way to meet girls
or vice versa but it heavily borrows from ballroom.
I have
already competed and come far in my dancing and hope to progress farther
but it also has made it easier for me to dance salsa. I see a lot
of people going to the advanced levels before they develop proper
steps and posture. Their step crazy!!! as my teacher would say!! >what
takes me very quickly to understand takes people longer.
I wish
people would learn how to walk first before they learn to dance ie
most girls have an improper hold most of the time its mushy there
has to be some resistence and i have heard jay and bong say this and
this is where i believe that ballroom helps!! Many people believe
old people dance ballroom Okey go to some competitions i doubt youll
see anyone over 30... some yes but a very small minority
As for
old In one of the weekly classes there is a lady i think 89 something
like that dances and has more energy and stamina than a 30 year old..
or try doing a natural turn with a slip pivot and a double reverse
more turning than in salsa moves and thats waltz or a pepperpot in
quickstep well im not comparing here what i think is that people should
be more open to both styles especially when ballroom could help a
lot with salsa.
On a
sidenote at salsa clubs when they put on cha cha or merringe everybody
still looks like their doing salsa!!! (its better to learn standard
that way you can drive both automatic and standard) -- Peter
Click
here for Part 3
