September
16, 2001
Ballroom, tea or me?
Ballroom dancing comes from Latin America? Have you ever seen anyone
from Latin America dancing like they do in Ballroom? Is it strange that
no Brazilian has ever won Latin Ballroom Samba title? Or that any argentine
has won the Latin Ballroom Tango competition ? Rumba and chachacha come
from Cuba.
Where are the Cubans? They will tell you, it is International style
Tango, or international style Samba. Who decided on this international
style? In fact, most ballroom studios suggest if you are serious about
competing you should get an English dance instructor.
Has anyone in the history of Latin America danced the way they dance
in Dancesport? Ballroom dancing is nice because it introduced people
from different cultures (Russians, French Canadians and Filipinos) to
dancing. But it is not my cup of tea. I think dancing is about the music.
Even at these competitions, much of "Latin" music being played
is in English. I am not against Latin music in English, but I am against
elevator music. Just watch Dancing at the Palais on TV. I am sure Ballroom
dancers are incredible athletes and they spin really well (not to the
music though), but it shouldn't be the only game in town -- Joe Kim
January
10, 2002 -- Why should this be just about Ballroom Vs Salsa?
Dear Rose, I find it amusing that if salseros should wish to suppress
other dances, why should it be just ballroom? Why not ballet, swing,
modern dance and as many as you can list. Suppression of other arts
is not inspirational. Are Salsa dancers ( I dance salsa as well) so
lacking in vision that there is a need to devote time to such uninspirational
subjects. Indeed, in reflecting upon what I have just said, what makes
me better in responding in this manner. Too late, it is already done.
Lets hope no one else commits the same mistake -- Richard
January
22, 2002 -- Suppression?
Richard. You have it the other way around Richard. Latin Ballroom dancing
tries to suppress real Salsa dancing. It's called neo-colonialism. Where
powerful countries (Britain before and USA now) and industries can control
how we see other cultures and countries. For example, many people only
know the stereotyped images of Chinese, Middle Eastern countries from
Walt Disney movies.
Latin Ballroom dancing is way of dealing with Latin dancing. It makes
it more athletic,
more digestable for people in the Anglo-American world. Most of the
Salsa teachers in Toronto are ex-ballroom dancers. I have no problem
with Latin Ballroom dancing like I have no problem with Ballet dancing.
But I have a problem when they say they teach Latin dancing. They should
put Ballroom when they advertise. Ballroom salsa, ballroom
rhumba, ballroom samba. As disappointed Canadian tourists will testify,
nobody in Latin countries dance like this. More and more Latin Ballroom
dancing has less to do with the music, and more to do with costumes,
athletics, ice skating and synchronized swimming. I mean that's why
they want to put it in the Olympics -- Joekim
January
24, 2002
I am in agreement with most of what JoeKim (JK) is saying about ballroom
dancing. I do think ballroom dancers should put that name next to their
classes when they are advertising themselves as instructors.
I have
seen numerous instructors advertise themselves as teachers in Latin
dance and when you go to the class you find out (a) they are not Latin;
and (b) that they are ballroom dancers teaching ballroom-style Latin
dance.
I am
sure people who wanted to take ballroom Latin dance would feel the
same way if they went to a class where the instructor was not ballroom-trained,
but a nightclub trained dancer who was teaching New York style salsa.
I am sure they would feel very deceived.
My one
disagreement is JK's comments about L.A. style salsa dancing. I am
sorry to say that L.A. style is not Latin ballroom in disguise. I
really think you do should do your homework in this area. There are
certain techniques, combinations, and/or styling that may appear to
be ballroom or ballroom-influenced but it is unfair to classfy it
as Latin ballroom. L.A. style salsa has more West Coast Swing, Hip-Hop,
and Jazz influences than ballroom. Latin Ballroom is its own separate
entity.
I can
dance all three styles: NY, LA, and Cuban. I can also dance on the
1 and 2. My overall preference would be L.A. style. In my view, it
is the least constrained of all three styles; you can incorporate
many more styles and influences. You can even add theatrical and dramatic
elements in your dance. It is the style that appears to have the least
restrictions.
Have
you ever seen Vazquez brothers dance? - Francisco, Luis, and Johnny?
Their dancing is amazing. Francisco created L.A. style. Their dancing
style does not even come close to ballroom. There are ballroom dancers
that dance salsa but it is still remains ballroom; and why not, that
is what they were trained as.
If you
want to know what L.A. style salsa dancing looks like I suggest you
see the 2001 Mayan Salsa Competition at www.clubmayan.com and go to
the Johnny Vazquez video clips; or see performances by the other brothers,
Francisco and Luis; or see their dance groups Los Rumberos and Salsa
Brava -- Rogelio
January
30, 2002 - Latin Salsa and Ballroom Salsa
Dancing is a very personal expression and experience. Each one of
us has individualistic perceptions about an art such as dance. Some
of these perceptions and feelings are deeply rooted in our cultural
background. It is important to recognise these comforts, fears and
biases. It is the same kind of fear and animosity that a person may
feel about a genre of music such as hip hop or for that matter, throat
singing.
It is
therefore not surprising that when you put two people together, you
will have three different opinions of what real Latin Salsa is. Some
day may come, when a group of wise men and women will sit down, to
have many, many committee meetings. Then after just as many more meetings,
arrive to a consensus on what constitute the basic elements required
to meet a standard that would define what Latin Salsa is. As is the
case, none of the participants will be completely happy.
I have
little passion for debate on what is genuinely Latin Salsa and what
is Ballroom Salsa. Particularly when dance art is not carved in stone.
By the time that it is carved in stone, to whomever's cloned image,
I would have lost all desire to learn it and to enjoy it to the fullest.
I care not about the destiny, the ideal, or some one else's imagery
of perfection; I am determined to enjoy the journey! -- Richard
February
7, 2002 - Ballroom Salsa versus Club SALSA
This discussion is pretty interesting. I believe this is a matter
of personal preference. I personally am not a big fan of ballroom
salsa. I find it to be stiff and doesn't seem to have the latin flare
that I have seen from good dancers in clubs. I have more fun dancing
with a woman that moves her body freely. One that doesn't have that
stiffness that ballroom dancers seem to have or project. Just look
how Edie the SALSA FREAK dances or Joby Vasquez. I have danced with
both of these awesome ladies and it is a lot of fun. I have dance
with others that are ballroom salsa trained and the fluidity is just
not there. Club salsa to me is not restrictive. It is very dynamic.
It is FUN!!
I do
agree that those instructors that teach Latin dances should advertise
that they teach ballroom style opposed to club style or any other
style. This will avoid having unhappy students.
I have
also noticed that those instructors that teach ballroom salsa, not
all but a lot, do not frequent the clubs like the club salsa instructors.
I find this to be strange.
In closing
Club SALSA is my choice. Have fun and enjoy your choice. JUST DANCE!!!
John
"salsero loco"
February
15, 2002 - Ballroom Salsa Vs Latin Salsa Vs Club Salsa
Now we have yet another type of Salsa, "Club Salsa". This
is the pinnacle of irony for a dance that has no standards, dancers
attempt to differentiate their personal brand of Salsa from some one
else's. The other brand of Salsa danced is strange, stiff and so on.
We can
learn and apply techniques from other dance forms to Salsa and vice
versa. Open up our minds and let the fresh air in, breath.
Mastery
of an art is achieved when techniques are no longer a barrier.
Richard
February
18, 2002
First of all, I have to publicly thank Joe Kim for entertaining me
so very much with his postings in so many threads. The sheer lack
of logic, the use of circular and self proving statements entertains
me enormously as well as the apparent assumption that he speaks for
so many Latinos and salsa dancers.
I am involved in both the ballroom and salsa scenes, around 3 or 4
sessions of each per week. Of all the people I know I have come across
NO-ONE who claims that ballroom Latin comes from Latin America. They
do say that Latin dancing originated from Latin America and has been
developed since then (it is a different argument to consider whether
the direction is good or bad, but it is true to say it is still developing
today). For example, aeroplanes look radically different today than
they did in North Carolina in 1903 (Wright brothers) but they are
still called aeroplanes even if they aren't even built in North Carolina.
It is ridiculous to expect people in NC to complain that competition
winning planes aren't legitimate. Same argument applies to dancing.
Does anyone in Latin America dance the way Dancesport participants
do? Not the majority (just the ballroom trained ones). Okay, I am
making the distinction between Dancesport style dancing and the vastly
more popular "normal" ballroom dancing. At the normal ballroom
venues (both here and in the UK) no one I met danced the way Dancesport
participants do unless they were on a relatively empty floor and practising
a competitive routine. Most people just dance to the music, or to
quote from your letter "dancing is about the music". So
we agree about that but you seem to consider that ballroom dancers
don't care as much about the music? What is dance without music, or
do you regularly see people dancing in silence? Hhhmm, we must frequent
different venues.
Dancing at the Palais is about competition dancing, one very small
aspect of ballroom dancing. Compare it if you will to competition
salsa and normal club salsa. I hope that the comparison highlights
the vast differences between the two styles. If not, I would love
to come to these strange venues you attend.
As to the choice of music, I find it strange that you wish to limit
the spread of "Latin" music to those who either speak Spanish
or are happy not to understand the words. I know several artistes
make singles both in Spanish and English, makes economic sense to
increase your acceptance by a larger market. Or are you suggesting
that these artistes should sacrifice themselves for their music.
As to the dancers spinning "not to the music though" unless
they were poorly skilled, then are you sure the timing wasn't syncopated,
or offbeat to give more accent or emphasis to the music. I can think
of many reasons why the timing of the spins could have been misread.
Finally (with reference to the first letter I am referring to), "the
only game in town". Yeah right. How cloistered you must be. So
many salsa, Argentinian Tango, Ballroom (both American and International),
Swing etc. clubs there are in town. We are lucky to have such a wide
range available and for so many people to be involved in more than
one of them. Lessons can be learnt in one style and transposed into
another making the different styles so much more expressive.
Okay,
a response to the other letter I read. I love this one, how very absurd
to think that Latin Ballroom is trying to suppress ANY other form
of dancing. That would take a massive conspiracy of many, many people.
Who are these people and where do they come from? I suppose Joe Kim
must be thinking of the dance instructors (you know, the ones he never
sees in the clubs, so hang on, how do they try to get people away
from the clubs then? Oh well, I've lost his logic on that one right
from the start). But most instructors I have met are decent normal
people trying to make a living. They are aware of many other dance
instructors around the place, but to expect them to collude against
any other form of dance to suppress it! RIDICULOUS. Movies (using
Joe Kim's example) give one message and can reach many millions of
people. Just how many can one dance instructor reach? Measured in
hundreds at the best and with no (or very little if you insist in
being paranoid) collusion between them.
Latin Ballroom dealing with Latin dancing. Love this one as well.
Everyone I know in both worlds consider each style of dance separately.
In the ballroom world we even consider American style different to
International. With so little difference between those two, why on
earth would we wish to "deal with" or assimilate salsa (or
West Coast or Lindy). Please help me out here. I really cannot see
what is "indigestible" about Latin dancing. Watching some
of the salsa contests, they are pretty athletic as well, I don't see
any real difference between competitive styles in either field. We
are comparing like with like aren't we? Or is your experience of ballroom
limited to Dancing at the Palais? Your later comments seem to indicate
your focus on competition Latin dancing (ballroom).
Instructors
being ex-ballroom? Okay, I lack experience or personal information
about instructors here. The only one I can think of is Frank Bishun,
all the other ballroom experienced (and I mean seriously experienced,
not just a couple of lessons in someone's front room) instructors
are still teaching ballroom as well as salsa (as well as Arg Tango,
Swing etc.). As there seem to be many ballroom studios around, then
you would expect the majority of salsa instructors to be ballroom.
But no, you specify ex-ballroom, so I have no idea who you are talking
about (perhaps it's the hat you are talking though that is muffling
you comments). Of course ballroom instructors state that they are
teaching Latin dancing. That is the terminology used. Why state ballroom
Latin dancing? Having queried the difference the first time, most
people are intelligent enough to understand. I used to drive an Escort.
The context makes it plain that it is a Ford Escort, I could go further
and specify the sub-type, but why bother. It is pretty obvious that
I mean I drive a car and not some pretty young women who works as
an escort for the night (nice to dream anyway).
Should you care to reply, please do so in the same manner as you normally
do, it makes me laugh so. -- GRH.
February
25, 2002 -- ballroom vs salsa
Dear Rose: I
must say you have an amazing website with a wealth of information about
salsa. Here
are some comments regarding the relationship between ballroom and salsa:
There
is no love-hate relationship between ballroom and salsa. It is very
clear however, that having a ballroom background (or ballet or gymnastics)
contributes greatly to the way you dance salsa. The Salsa Princess
Josie Neglia, for example, is also a great International Latin Ballroom
dancer with many years of training in the art of dancing.
It all
depends on how much you are willing to learn. The majority of people
learn how to dance for the social aspect of it. The others compete
or teach. Unfortunately, the majority of salsa dancers out there are
satisfied once they reach a certain level. They think that by taking
a few lessons and workshops and by clubbing 2-3 or even 7 nights a
week, they have transformed into dancers. What's even sadder is when
some of these so-called dancers consider themselves qualified to start
teaching others (and charge for it too). I would never recommend it
to anyone to take lessons from such fake instructors who lack simple
notions of movement.
Meanwhile,
it's time for the salsa dancers to shape up: suck in that stomach,
straighten your back and learn how to turn (to name a few principles
that can make you a little better dancer). Also, it won't hurt if
you take a few ballroom or hiphop or flamenco lessons (there's a whole
universe of dance out there BEYOND salsa).
Michael
T.
March
2, 2002 -- Ballroom vs Salsa and shaping up
Michael: What's wrong with you? There are amazing dancers in clubs.
I guess you're too busy checking out their posture to notice their
style and passion.
I don't dance to show off, but to release some stress and enjoy myself.
I don't do it competitively. I think all those salsa people with "ballroom-training"
should dance salsa in clubs, and not try to demonstrate that they
are better -- Shawna
ps: I do agree that Rose runs a great site!!!
March
27, 2002 -- Funny
stuff
I'm glad
GRH finds my e-mail so amusing. I, on the other hand, cannot say the
same about his e-mail (Escort joke. So unfunny).
First of all, most beginners or spectators of Latin Ballroom think
Latin Ballroom comes from Latin America. Just ask Jaime (his e-mail
is above), one of your supporters. The Latin Ballroom teachers and
advanced students of course know the truth, one trip to Colombia or
Cuba would certanly be enlightening for them and also they don't want
to look foolish. Ask the average person on the street, if Latin Ballroom
comes from Latin America, they will tell you "yes", because
they haven't been told otherwise. Nobody in Latin America dances Latin
Ballroom. There's another fact that they don't tell you in Ballroom
school.
Second,
is it a shame you think everything that is associated with the Western
World is developed. It is hard to think of "development"
in a negative way. If Ballroom dancing is a developed form of salsa,
then Cuban salsa in your mind would be simple, primitive, at least
old. According to your analogy, Ballroom dancing might be a new model
SUV and Cuban dancing might be a 20 year old station wagon. What people
don't know is that Salsa in Cuba has evolved from the 1950's. Dancing
in Cuba also has evolved too. And people in different regions of Cuba
dance differently too.
Third,
if you are buying a car, don't you want to know if it's Hyundai, a
GM car, or even a Lada? They might all get you to where you want to
go, but everybody wants to know the model. When have you seen an advertisement
for a car that didn't mention what kind of car it is? Most of the
people who have written in have agreed with me on this point, Latin
ballroom dancing should be advertised as such -- joekim
Aprl
18, 2002 -- Ballroom vs Salsa
To all
music lovers out there,
Having
been a ballroom dance instructor for a number of years, I do relate
to most peoples' feelings/impressions when it comes to the subject
of one style of dance vs another. The unfortunate problem is that
most of us tend to forget that dancing is "singing with the body"
as it were, and this act requires communicating what we hear.
Often
in taking on a foreign idea, we apply our own unique understanding/interpretation
to it. As a result, we add our own accent when expressing that very
idea. The perfect example of this phenomenon is the assimilation of
European court{ballroom} and folk dances by Africans in the new world.
It is wrong to assume that these people were doing squaredance, waltz,
or polka improperly, when in fact it was through this creative process
that they were able to adapt and invent new ideas. The very same could
be said for formal(ballroom)interpretation of Bolero, Mambo, Cha Cha
Cha, Samba, Salsa or any other Afro-Caribbean/Latin form.
The real
issue here is not style, but context. Not what we are doing, but when
and where. It would seem out of place to make a grand romantic dip
during the high point of a "funky salsa dura" record! The
same could be said of using a sensual pelvic thrust to express the
peak of a "tender salsa romantica." It is these variations
of expression that add to our dance vocabulary, and its really all
good! All we need to do is keep loving the music and KEEP AN OPEN
MIND!!!!!!!!!!!
With
all respect and enthusiasm,
Gordon Beckles
April
28, 2002 -- Latin Ballroom Versus Salsa
Dear
Rose, A ? thank you ? to those who posted many comments about Latin
Ballroom. Your comments fueled my curiousity to seek the truth about
it. Until then, I was dancing exclusively Salsa with an occasional
foray into social Cha-Cha at the dance clubs.
Recently
having gained personal experiences in Rhumba, Cha-Cha and Jive, I
have found International Latin Ballroom to be far from what is at
times described as "Stiff" or lacking in "Emotion"
or "Erotism", if I may be allowed an excess.
As a
medium for self expression, Internation Latin Ballroom dances are
extremely potent. These dances do require precise techniques and many
hours of practice to perfect.
Before
any one goes into a deep end, the same is true of Salsa.
Do dancers
dance to show off? I have this quote from "Mikhail Baryshnikov"
to enlighten you.
"
I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance
Better than Myself... "
Richard
April
29, 2002 -- Ballroom dancing
Everybody
from the Ballroom dancing world says to keep an open mind. They say
there's a whole world of dance outside salsa, like Flamenco, hip hop,
Tango or ballet. This reveals the common disregard for the music the
Latin Ballroom dancers have. Have you seen the Latin ballroom competition,
they dance everything the same? If you turned off the music, you can't
tell if they are dancing Samba or Cha Cha Cha. If dancing is about
the music, why do you Latin Ballroom dancers call it Cha Cha instead
of Cha Cha Cha, and Rhumba, instead of Cuban son? New York style dancing
developed with the great bands in New York and Puerto Rico. And Cuban
style dancing developed with its own great bands. What are the great
bands Latin Ballroom dancing developed with? Latin Ballroom dancers
should also keep an open mind, not only accept what the Anglo-American
world has to offer. It is AFRO-Latin music. Why don't people with
open minds learn pilon, danzon, songo, mozambique, timba, direct ancestors
or descendants of Salsa -- Chincub
April
29, 2002 -- Rose Knows response to Chincub
Well Chincub, someone's finally dragged me into a discussion as I
don't have much time to write as often as I would like, and only because
you said something that was so blatantly wrong! "If you turned
off the music, you can't tell if they are dancing Samba or Cha Cha
Cha." Well yes, that's probably true, if you've NEVER studied
any of the dances and don't know any of the steps or technique involved
for any of the dances in standard (waltz, viennese waltz, tango, quickstep
and foxtrot) or latin (cha cha, paso doble, rumba, samba and jive),
but I HAVE and I can tell the difference EVEN WITH THE MUSIC OFF!
I took about 1-1/2 years of ballroom as a new challenge when I got
bored of dance the same old Toronto-style salsa night after night
before we kicked into other styles such as Casino, LA and NY on 2.
And believe me, it's not easy trying to learn 9 of the dances in one
series of classes. I admire all the ballroom-trained dancers because
many of the men know both the men's and women's steps -- I'm lucky
if I can still remember the woman's steps for most of the dances since
I haven't danced them in over a year! If you are lucky enough to get
someone with a few years of ballroom experience, as a follower, you
learn much more quickly than the men who have 9-10 times more to learn
about leading and learning 9-10 different dance basics. In each of
the dances, you have at least 10 patterns for each level to master;
and then imagine how much practice is involved to be able to dance
a song without stepping over the feet of your partner and other dancers
on the floor as you're supposed to glide your way without stopping
to the beat of the music! I would like to see dancers who have studied
only one dance style or who proudly state "they've never taken
a dance lesson" master the art of dancing ballroom well!
I can't answer much for the history of dance as I'm still just scratching
the surface when I have some time, but you can't blame many for their
ignorance because there's probably not enough English literature out
there with this information as I get letters all the time asking for
information for a salsa research paper they are working on in school
or university. I wish I knew enough to help them and/or guide them
to the right books, but there's not much out there. Regarding the
various dances that lead up to the evolution of Salsa as it is today
-- eventually, yes, maybe dancers will be interested in exploring
some of the roots to add a different flavour to their dance, but I
think it's slowly starting to happen. Growing interest is starting
around the hardcore dancers in the World to learn Afro-cuban movement.
Some groups are already incorporating this style of dance into their
salsa choreography and it's made an unforgettable impression on many
dancers, including Abakua's "Libertad" and Young Ambition's
"Aguanile".
Don't forget, that dance and dancers' chosen forms of expression of
body movement is a very personal thing. NO ONE should be for or against
any style of dancing. To me -- it's all beautiful to watch (although
I have to admit I've never really liked Modern Dance). If you really
love and study dancing alot, you can pretty much tell an amateur/beginner
from a seasoned or professional dancer in any dance form.
If you love the feeling dancing gives you, in terms of a physical
and mental stress release; and especially if you love the music from
that particular dance form -- there is no greater high than being
able to master or interpret that dance form to a song you love (whether
it's salsa, ballroom, hip hop, jazz and any other dance you enjoy
doing). If you've never experienced that feeling or don't care to,
then you're missing out on one of the highs that keeps me dancing
and fuels my hunger for more... Rose Knows
PS This was supposed to be a short reply, but you could say I got
carried away by my passion...
More food for thought... a fellow co-worker who comes from Colombia
and loves to salsa put it another way... In Colombia, the way they
dance salsa is to be social, holding another dancer close and to get
to know one another. In Toronto, he feels that we dance more showy
(not to show off), but more performance-style salsa with a lot of
technique-- it's not a get-to-know-you dance.
And that's how I would interpret the more latin style/cuban style
of dancing, more casual and social, whereas our North American style
salsa is more for competition and performances. How boring it would
be if the only place you could dance would only be in a studio setting
to practice more intricate moves -- there's nothing more exilarating
than being able to do those same moves with many dancers who are on
the same level in a social setting where the music and the dancers'
energy surrounds you. The same with ballroom -- you have the competition
level style of dancing and then there's the more casual social ballroom
setting where technique is not as pronounced. And if you ever decide
to go to a Salsa Congress, many of the dancers there are for one reason
alone, to meet other dancers who have the same passion or want to
be surrounded by that energy of "so-called" showy ballroom-style
salsa! If that's what you call it, who cares, as long as the salsa
dancers take it to the next level -- I'm all for it, as dance is an
ever-evolving art form which should never stand still for anyone's
opinion!
Click
here for Part 2
