September 16, 2001

Ballroom, tea or me?

Ballroom dancing comes from Latin America? Have you ever seen anyone from Latin America dancing like they do in Ballroom? Is it strange that no Brazilian has ever won Latin Ballroom Samba title? Or that any argentine has won the Latin Ballroom Tango competition ? Rumba and chachacha come from Cuba.

Where are the Cubans? They will tell you, it is International style Tango, or international style Samba. Who decided on this international style? In fact, most ballroom studios suggest if you are serious about competing you should get an English dance instructor.

Has anyone in the history of Latin America danced the way they dance in Dancesport? Ballroom dancing is nice because it introduced people from different cultures (Russians, French Canadians and Filipinos) to dancing. But it is not my cup of tea. I think dancing is about the music. Even at these competitions, much of "Latin" music being played is in English. I am not against Latin music in English, but I am against elevator music. Just watch Dancing at the Palais on TV. I am sure Ballroom dancers are incredible athletes and they spin really well (not to the music though), but it shouldn't be the only game in town -- Joe Kim

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January 10, 2002 -- Why should this be just about Ballroom Vs Salsa?

Dear Rose, I find it amusing that if salseros should wish to suppress other dances, why should it be just ballroom? Why not ballet, swing, modern dance and as many as you can list. Suppression of other arts is not inspirational. Are Salsa dancers ( I dance salsa as well) so lacking in vision that there is a need to devote time to such uninspirational subjects. Indeed, in reflecting upon what I have just said, what makes me better in responding in this manner. Too late, it is already done. Lets hope no one else commits the same mistake -- Richard

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January 22, 2002 -- Suppression?

Richard. You have it the other way around Richard. Latin Ballroom dancing tries to suppress real Salsa dancing. It's called neo-colonialism. Where powerful countries (Britain before and USA now) and industries can control how we see other cultures and countries. For example, many people only know the stereotyped images of Chinese, Middle Eastern countries from Walt Disney movies.

Latin Ballroom dancing is way of dealing with Latin dancing. It makes it more athletic,
more digestable for people in the Anglo-American world. Most of the Salsa teachers in Toronto are ex-ballroom dancers. I have no problem with Latin Ballroom dancing like I have no problem with Ballet dancing. But I have a problem when they say they teach Latin dancing. They should put Ballroom when they advertise. Ballroom salsa, ballroom
rhumba, ballroom samba. As disappointed Canadian tourists will testify, nobody in Latin countries dance like this. More and more Latin Ballroom dancing has less to do with the music, and more to do with costumes, athletics, ice skating and synchronized swimming. I mean that's why they want to put it in the Olympics -- Joekim

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January 24, 2002

I am in agreement with most of what JoeKim (JK) is saying about ballroom dancing. I do think ballroom dancers should put that name next to their classes when they are advertising themselves as instructors.

I have seen numerous instructors advertise themselves as teachers in Latin dance and when you go to the class you find out (a) they are not Latin; and (b) that they are ballroom dancers teaching ballroom-style Latin dance.

I am sure people who wanted to take ballroom Latin dance would feel the same way if they went to a class where the instructor was not ballroom-trained, but a nightclub trained dancer who was teaching New York style salsa. I am sure they would feel very deceived.

My one disagreement is JK's comments about L.A. style salsa dancing. I am sorry to say that L.A. style is not Latin ballroom in disguise. I really think you do should do your homework in this area. There are certain techniques, combinations, and/or styling that may appear to be ballroom or ballroom-influenced but it is unfair to classfy it as Latin ballroom. L.A. style salsa has more West Coast Swing, Hip-Hop, and Jazz influences than ballroom. Latin Ballroom is its own separate entity.

I can dance all three styles: NY, LA, and Cuban. I can also dance on the 1 and 2. My overall preference would be L.A. style. In my view, it is the least constrained of all three styles; you can incorporate many more styles and influences. You can even add theatrical and dramatic elements in your dance. It is the style that appears to have the least restrictions.

Have you ever seen Vazquez brothers dance? - Francisco, Luis, and Johnny? Their dancing is amazing. Francisco created L.A. style. Their dancing style does not even come close to ballroom. There are ballroom dancers that dance salsa but it is still remains ballroom; and why not, that is what they were trained as.

If you want to know what L.A. style salsa dancing looks like I suggest you see the 2001 Mayan Salsa Competition at www.clubmayan.com and go to the Johnny Vazquez video clips; or see performances by the other brothers, Francisco and Luis; or see their dance groups Los Rumberos and Salsa Brava -- Rogelio

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January 30, 2002 - Latin Salsa and Ballroom Salsa

Dancing is a very personal expression and experience. Each one of us has individualistic perceptions about an art such as dance. Some of these perceptions and feelings are deeply rooted in our cultural background. It is important to recognise these comforts, fears and biases. It is the same kind of fear and animosity that a person may feel about a genre of music such as hip hop or for that matter, throat singing.

It is therefore not surprising that when you put two people together, you will have three different opinions of what real Latin Salsa is. Some day may come, when a group of wise men and women will sit down, to have many, many committee meetings. Then after just as many more meetings, arrive to a consensus on what constitute the basic elements required to meet a standard that would define what Latin Salsa is. As is the case, none of the participants will be completely happy.

I have little passion for debate on what is genuinely Latin Salsa and what is Ballroom Salsa. Particularly when dance art is not carved in stone. By the time that it is carved in stone, to whomever's cloned image, I would have lost all desire to learn it and to enjoy it to the fullest. I care not about the destiny, the ideal, or some one else's imagery of perfection; I am determined to enjoy the journey! -- Richard

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February 7, 2002 - Ballroom Salsa versus Club SALSA

This discussion is pretty interesting. I believe this is a matter of personal preference. I personally am not a big fan of ballroom salsa. I find it to be stiff and doesn't seem to have the latin flare that I have seen from good dancers in clubs. I have more fun dancing with a woman that moves her body freely. One that doesn't have that stiffness that ballroom dancers seem to have or project. Just look how Edie the SALSA FREAK dances or Joby Vasquez. I have danced with both of these awesome ladies and it is a lot of fun. I have dance with others that are ballroom salsa trained and the fluidity is just not there. Club salsa to me is not restrictive. It is very dynamic. It is FUN!!

I do agree that those instructors that teach Latin dances should advertise that they teach ballroom style opposed to club style or any other style. This will avoid having unhappy students.

I have also noticed that those instructors that teach ballroom salsa, not all but a lot, do not frequent the clubs like the club salsa instructors. I find this to be strange.

In closing Club SALSA is my choice. Have fun and enjoy your choice. JUST DANCE!!!

John "salsero loco"

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February 15, 2002 - Ballroom Salsa Vs Latin Salsa Vs Club Salsa

Now we have yet another type of Salsa, "Club Salsa". This is the pinnacle of irony for a dance that has no standards, dancers attempt to differentiate their personal brand of Salsa from some one else's. The other brand of Salsa danced is strange, stiff and so on.

We can learn and apply techniques from other dance forms to Salsa and vice versa. Open up our minds and let the fresh air in, breath.

Mastery of an art is achieved when techniques are no longer a barrier.

Richard

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February 18, 2002

First of all, I have to publicly thank Joe Kim for entertaining me so very much with his postings in so many threads. The sheer lack of logic, the use of circular and self proving statements entertains me enormously as well as the apparent assumption that he speaks for so many Latinos and salsa dancers.

I am involved in both the ballroom and salsa scenes, around 3 or 4 sessions of each per week. Of all the people I know I have come across NO-ONE who claims that ballroom Latin comes from Latin America. They do say that Latin dancing originated from Latin America and has been developed since then (it is a different argument to consider whether the direction is good or bad, but it is true to say it is still developing today). For example, aeroplanes look radically different today than they did in North Carolina in 1903 (Wright brothers) but they are still called aeroplanes even if they aren't even built in North Carolina. It is ridiculous to expect people in NC to complain that competition winning planes aren't legitimate. Same argument applies to dancing.

Does anyone in Latin America dance the way Dancesport participants do? Not the majority (just the ballroom trained ones). Okay, I am making the distinction between Dancesport style dancing and the vastly more popular "normal" ballroom dancing. At the normal ballroom venues (both here and in the UK) no one I met danced the way Dancesport participants do unless they were on a relatively empty floor and practising a competitive routine. Most people just dance to the music, or to quote from your letter "dancing is about the music". So we agree about that but you seem to consider that ballroom dancers don't care as much about the music? What is dance without music, or do you regularly see people dancing in silence? Hhhmm, we must frequent different venues.

Dancing at the Palais is about competition dancing, one very small aspect of ballroom dancing. Compare it if you will to competition salsa and normal club salsa. I hope that the comparison highlights the vast differences between the two styles. If not, I would love to come to these strange venues you attend.

As to the choice of music, I find it strange that you wish to limit the spread of "Latin" music to those who either speak Spanish or are happy not to understand the words. I know several artistes make singles both in Spanish and English, makes economic sense to increase your acceptance by a larger market. Or are you suggesting that these artistes should sacrifice themselves for their music.

As to the dancers spinning "not to the music though" unless they were poorly skilled, then are you sure the timing wasn't syncopated, or offbeat to give more accent or emphasis to the music. I can think of many reasons why the timing of the spins could have been misread. Finally (with reference to the first letter I am referring to), "the only game in town". Yeah right. How cloistered you must be. So many salsa, Argentinian Tango, Ballroom (both American and International), Swing etc. clubs there are in town. We are lucky to have such a wide range available and for so many people to be involved in more than one of them. Lessons can be learnt in one style and transposed into another making the different styles so much more expressive.

Okay, a response to the other letter I read. I love this one, how very absurd to think that Latin Ballroom is trying to suppress ANY other form of dancing. That would take a massive conspiracy of many, many people. Who are these people and where do they come from? I suppose Joe Kim must be thinking of the dance instructors (you know, the ones he never sees in the clubs, so hang on, how do they try to get people away from the clubs then? Oh well, I've lost his logic on that one right from the start). But most instructors I have met are decent normal people trying to make a living. They are aware of many other dance instructors around the place, but to expect them to collude against any other form of dance to suppress it! RIDICULOUS. Movies (using Joe Kim's example) give one message and can reach many millions of people. Just how many can one dance instructor reach? Measured in hundreds at the best and with no (or very little if you insist in being paranoid) collusion between them.

Latin Ballroom dealing with Latin dancing. Love this one as well. Everyone I know in both worlds consider each style of dance separately. In the ballroom world we even consider American style different to International. With so little difference between those two, why on earth would we wish to "deal with" or assimilate salsa (or West Coast or Lindy). Please help me out here. I really cannot see what is "indigestible" about Latin dancing. Watching some of the salsa contests, they are pretty athletic as well, I don't see any real difference between competitive styles in either field. We are comparing like with like aren't we? Or is your experience of ballroom limited to Dancing at the Palais? Your later comments seem to indicate your focus on competition Latin dancing (ballroom).

Instructors being ex-ballroom? Okay, I lack experience or personal information about instructors here. The only one I can think of is Frank Bishun, all the other ballroom experienced (and I mean seriously experienced, not just a couple of lessons in someone's front room) instructors are still teaching ballroom as well as salsa (as well as Arg Tango, Swing etc.). As there seem to be many ballroom studios around, then you would expect the majority of salsa instructors to be ballroom. But no, you specify ex-ballroom, so I have no idea who you are talking about (perhaps it's the hat you are talking though that is muffling you comments). Of course ballroom instructors state that they are teaching Latin dancing. That is the terminology used. Why state ballroom Latin dancing? Having queried the difference the first time, most people are intelligent enough to understand. I used to drive an Escort. The context makes it plain that it is a Ford Escort, I could go further and specify the sub-type, but why bother. It is pretty obvious that I mean I drive a car and not some pretty young women who works as an escort for the night (nice to dream anyway).

Should you care to reply, please do so in the same manner as you normally do, it makes me laugh so. -- GRH.

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February 25, 2002 -- ballroom vs salsa

Dear Rose: I must say you have an amazing website with a wealth of information about salsa. Here are some comments regarding the relationship between ballroom and salsa:

There is no love-hate relationship between ballroom and salsa. It is very clear however, that having a ballroom background (or ballet or gymnastics) contributes greatly to the way you dance salsa. The Salsa Princess Josie Neglia, for example, is also a great International Latin Ballroom dancer with many years of training in the art of dancing.

It all depends on how much you are willing to learn. The majority of people learn how to dance for the social aspect of it. The others compete or teach. Unfortunately, the majority of salsa dancers out there are satisfied once they reach a certain level. They think that by taking a few lessons and workshops and by clubbing 2-3 or even 7 nights a week, they have transformed into dancers. What's even sadder is when some of these so-called dancers consider themselves qualified to start teaching others (and charge for it too). I would never recommend it to anyone to take lessons from such fake instructors who lack simple notions of movement.

Meanwhile, it's time for the salsa dancers to shape up: suck in that stomach, straighten your back and learn how to turn (to name a few principles that can make you a little better dancer). Also, it won't hurt if you take a few ballroom or hiphop or flamenco lessons (there's a whole universe of dance out there BEYOND salsa).

Michael T.

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March 2, 2002 -- Ballroom vs Salsa and shaping up

Michael: What's wrong with you? There are amazing dancers in clubs. I guess you're too busy checking out their posture to notice their style and passion.
I don't dance to show off, but to release some stress and enjoy myself. I don't do it competitively. I think all those salsa people with "ballroom-training" should dance salsa in clubs, and not try to demonstrate that they are better -- Shawna

ps: I do agree that Rose runs a great site!!!

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March 27, 2002 -- Funny stuff

I'm glad GRH finds my e-mail so amusing. I, on the other hand, cannot say the same about his e-mail (Escort joke. So unfunny).

First of all, most beginners or spectators of Latin Ballroom think Latin Ballroom comes from Latin America. Just ask Jaime (his e-mail is above), one of your supporters. The Latin Ballroom teachers and advanced students of course know the truth, one trip to Colombia or Cuba would certanly be enlightening for them and also they don't want to look foolish. Ask the average person on the street, if Latin Ballroom comes from Latin America, they will tell you "yes", because they haven't been told otherwise. Nobody in Latin America dances Latin Ballroom. There's another fact that they don't tell you in Ballroom school.

Second, is it a shame you think everything that is associated with the Western World is developed. It is hard to think of "development" in a negative way. If Ballroom dancing is a developed form of salsa, then Cuban salsa in your mind would be simple, primitive, at least old. According to your analogy, Ballroom dancing might be a new model SUV and Cuban dancing might be a 20 year old station wagon. What people don't know is that Salsa in Cuba has evolved from the 1950's. Dancing in Cuba also has evolved too. And people in different regions of Cuba dance differently too.

Third, if you are buying a car, don't you want to know if it's Hyundai, a GM car, or even a Lada? They might all get you to where you want to go, but everybody wants to know the model. When have you seen an advertisement for a car that didn't mention what kind of car it is? Most of the people who have written in have agreed with me on this point, Latin ballroom dancing should be advertised as such -- joekim

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Aprl 18, 2002 -- Ballroom vs Salsa

To all music lovers out there,

Having been a ballroom dance instructor for a number of years, I do relate to most peoples' feelings/impressions when it comes to the subject of one style of dance vs another. The unfortunate problem is that most of us tend to forget that dancing is "singing with the body" as it were, and this act requires communicating what we hear.

Often in taking on a foreign idea, we apply our own unique understanding/interpretation to it. As a result, we add our own accent when expressing that very idea. The perfect example of this phenomenon is the assimilation of European court{ballroom} and folk dances by Africans in the new world. It is wrong to assume that these people were doing squaredance, waltz, or polka improperly, when in fact it was through this creative process that they were able to adapt and invent new ideas. The very same could be said for formal(ballroom)interpretation of Bolero, Mambo, Cha Cha Cha, Samba, Salsa or any other Afro-Caribbean/Latin form.

The real issue here is not style, but context. Not what we are doing, but when and where. It would seem out of place to make a grand romantic dip during the high point of a "funky salsa dura" record! The same could be said of using a sensual pelvic thrust to express the peak of a "tender salsa romantica." It is these variations of expression that add to our dance vocabulary, and its really all good! All we need to do is keep loving the music and KEEP AN OPEN MIND!!!!!!!!!!!

With all respect and enthusiasm,
Gordon Beckles

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April 28, 2002 -- Latin Ballroom Versus Salsa

Dear Rose, A ? thank you ? to those who posted many comments about Latin Ballroom. Your comments fueled my curiousity to seek the truth about it. Until then, I was dancing exclusively Salsa with an occasional foray into social Cha-Cha at the dance clubs.

Recently having gained personal experiences in Rhumba, Cha-Cha and Jive, I have found International Latin Ballroom to be far from what is at times described as "Stiff" or lacking in "Emotion" or "Erotism", if I may be allowed an excess.

As a medium for self expression, Internation Latin Ballroom dances are extremely potent. These dances do require precise techniques and many hours of practice to perfect.

Before any one goes into a deep end, the same is true of Salsa.

Do dancers dance to show off? I have this quote from "Mikhail Baryshnikov" to enlighten you.

" I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance Better than Myself... "

Richard

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April 29, 2002 -- Ballroom dancing

Everybody from the Ballroom dancing world says to keep an open mind. They say there's a whole world of dance outside salsa, like Flamenco, hip hop, Tango or ballet. This reveals the common disregard for the music the Latin Ballroom dancers have. Have you seen the Latin ballroom competition, they dance everything the same? If you turned off the music, you can't tell if they are dancing Samba or Cha Cha Cha. If dancing is about the music, why do you Latin Ballroom dancers call it Cha Cha instead of Cha Cha Cha, and Rhumba, instead of Cuban son? New York style dancing developed with the great bands in New York and Puerto Rico. And Cuban style dancing developed with its own great bands. What are the great bands Latin Ballroom dancing developed with? Latin Ballroom dancers should also keep an open mind, not only accept what the Anglo-American world has to offer. It is AFRO-Latin music. Why don't people with open minds learn pilon, danzon, songo, mozambique, timba, direct ancestors or descendants of Salsa -- Chincub

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April 29, 2002 -- Rose Knows response to Chincub

Well Chincub, someone's finally dragged me into a discussion as I don't have much time to write as often as I would like, and only because you said something that was so blatantly wrong! "If you turned off the music, you can't tell if they are dancing Samba or Cha Cha Cha." Well yes, that's probably true, if you've NEVER studied any of the dances and don't know any of the steps or technique involved for any of the dances in standard (waltz, viennese waltz, tango, quickstep and foxtrot) or latin (cha cha, paso doble, rumba, samba and jive), but I HAVE and I can tell the difference EVEN WITH THE MUSIC OFF! I took about 1-1/2 years of ballroom as a new challenge when I got bored of dance the same old Toronto-style salsa night after night before we kicked into other styles such as Casino, LA and NY on 2. And believe me, it's not easy trying to learn 9 of the dances in one series of classes. I admire all the ballroom-trained dancers because many of the men know both the men's and women's steps -- I'm lucky if I can still remember the woman's steps for most of the dances since I haven't danced them in over a year! If you are lucky enough to get someone with a few years of ballroom experience, as a follower, you learn much more quickly than the men who have 9-10 times more to learn about leading and learning 9-10 different dance basics. In each of the dances, you have at least 10 patterns for each level to master; and then imagine how much practice is involved to be able to dance a song without stepping over the feet of your partner and other dancers on the floor as you're supposed to glide your way without stopping to the beat of the music! I would like to see dancers who have studied only one dance style or who proudly state "they've never taken a dance lesson" master the art of dancing ballroom well!

I can't answer much for the history of dance as I'm still just scratching the surface when I have some time, but you can't blame many for their ignorance because there's probably not enough English literature out there with this information as I get letters all the time asking for information for a salsa research paper they are working on in school or university. I wish I knew enough to help them and/or guide them to the right books, but there's not much out there. Regarding the various dances that lead up to the evolution of Salsa as it is today -- eventually, yes, maybe dancers will be interested in exploring some of the roots to add a different flavour to their dance, but I think it's slowly starting to happen. Growing interest is starting around the hardcore dancers in the World to learn Afro-cuban movement. Some groups are already incorporating this style of dance into their salsa choreography and it's made an unforgettable impression on many dancers, including Abakua's "Libertad" and Young Ambition's "Aguanile".

Don't forget, that dance and dancers' chosen forms of expression of body movement is a very personal thing. NO ONE should be for or against any style of dancing. To me -- it's all beautiful to watch (although I have to admit I've never really liked Modern Dance). If you really love and study dancing alot, you can pretty much tell an amateur/beginner from a seasoned or professional dancer in any dance form.

If you love the feeling dancing gives you, in terms of a physical and mental stress release; and especially if you love the music from that particular dance form -- there is no greater high than being able to master or interpret that dance form to a song you love (whether it's salsa, ballroom, hip hop, jazz and any other dance you enjoy doing). If you've never experienced that feeling or don't care to, then you're missing out on one of the highs that keeps me dancing and fuels my hunger for more... Rose Knows

PS This was supposed to be a short reply, but you could say I got carried away by my passion...

More food for thought... a fellow co-worker who comes from Colombia and loves to salsa put it another way... In Colombia, the way they dance salsa is to be social, holding another dancer close and to get to know one another. In Toronto, he feels that we dance more showy (not to show off), but more performance-style salsa with a lot of technique-- it's not a get-to-know-you dance.

And that's how I would interpret the more latin style/cuban style of dancing, more casual and social, whereas our North American style salsa is more for competition and performances. How boring it would be if the only place you could dance would only be in a studio setting to practice more intricate moves -- there's nothing more exilarating than being able to do those same moves with many dancers who are on the same level in a social setting where the music and the dancers' energy surrounds you. The same with ballroom -- you have the competition level style of dancing and then there's the more casual social ballroom setting where technique is not as pronounced. And if you ever decide to go to a Salsa Congress, many of the dancers there are for one reason alone, to meet other dancers who have the same passion or want to be surrounded by that energy of "so-called" showy ballroom-style salsa! If that's what you call it, who cares, as long as the salsa dancers take it to the next level -- I'm all for it, as dance is an ever-evolving art form which should never stand still for anyone's opinion!

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May 1, 2002 -- Why does Ballroom Style Salsa Look So Artificial?

First and foremost, those who dance Salsa with a ballroom style flavour (overly extended arms, legs, unatural hip action, etc.) have a right to do so the way they want to.

However, I also have the right to say that it looks so . . . (beep--edited.) Yuk! While some will argue that New York style (Puerto Rican style?) and L.A. style is very ballroom - and some will directly contradict that - the good dancers of these styles do retain the Afro-Cuban or carribean "relaxed" feel to their Salsa dancing. The same goes for Cuban/Casino and Colombian style Salsa. Don't get me wrong, New York and L.A. style are probably the most challenging to learn choreographically as it incorporates many modern and old elements from jazz, hip-hop, tap, African dance (and even ballroom) to its choreography. Those who dance very ballroom style salsa, however -- the movements looks so stiff and facial expressions so artificial - and as most popular Salsa songs are about love, separation, longing, etc., - it just does not make sense!!! If I'm not mistaken, ballroom comprises of many dances, and I'm sure they all don't dance it the same way or with the same flavour - so why the heck can't they do the same with Salsa? O.K., so the comments seem harsh, and believe it or not, I've seen how hard ballroom dancers train, and their discipline is not in question, but maybe their artistic sensibilities are.

And maybe this one of the reasons why many people don't like ballroom dancing. What looks beautiful to ballroom dancers look ugly to Salsa dancers and vice versa. Hmmmm. Frank

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May 2, 2002

Hi Rose, Great Email! I just posted this also to www.myDanceFriends.com with reference to www.TOSalsa.com and link to your site: http://www.dancescape.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=13

I do agree that in the Ballroom world, there has been a trend towards more "tricks" and outward expression to the audience, rather than inward expression and feeling of intimacy towards the dance partner. Perhaps this may be the effort to have Dance more like Sport and the lobbying efforts to get competitive Ballroom Dancing in the Olympics ... so this has perhaps taken away from the artistry, artistic expression/emotional connection between two dancers.

I have come from the competitive Ballroom DanceSport world, and only recently became exposed to the world of Salsa through the Berlin nighclub in Toronto, as well as through SalsaTeam Canada performances at Strictly Dancing Downtown in Burlington. Having seen and experienced Salsa there from professional and amateur Salsa dancers... and I LOVED IT -- the energy, the connection between dancers, the fast spins and overhead hand movements. It made me want to learn Salsa!!!

I haven't seen examples of "Ballroom-style Salsa" and specifically those dancers mentioned by Frank -- my exposure has really been only on Latin DanceSport (Cha Cha, Rumba, Paso Doble, Jive, Samba). If there is video footage of this, or if I were able to see those dancers that are being referred, at least I could give a more informed and objective view. How's that for a politically correct answer? ;-)

Robert T.
www.myDanceFriends.com
www.dancescape.TV

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May 2, 2002 -- ballroom

Nobody said Ballroom is difficult to dance. I am sure they have studied years to do the things they do. And I am sure they are incredible athletes. But I am talking about the Dancesport or Ballroom dance competitions I see on T.V. What music are they following when they do the dips, the really fast turns, the posing and gesturing. I am sure beginner Ballroom dancers are taught the basic steps. But the professional dancers seemed to have graduated past the music, that's why I say they dance the same.

GRH says the competitions are only small part of Latin Ballroom dancing. But I am sure the really advanced dancers and teachers have made names for themselves only through competitions. Does anyone prefer Ballroom Samba and Ballroom Tango to Brazilian Samba or Argentine Tango? Or did these Ballroom teachers fail to mention it is different? And do you they really teach social dancing? At least, least they could teach the students not to make such big steps and spins as to hit everybody on the dancefloor. I mean, you can't dance the same way as you dance in your ballroom school as you do in a nightclub. Second, have you noticed Most of theLatin music they play is not very Latin at all, it's either in Spanglish or really bad elevator music. I sure they must play a lot of the really bad LA "salsa" songs "Carelss Whisper" and "Lady".

I don't agree with there is a conspiracy against Cuban salsa dancing. But it seems to me that the Salsa teachers here can only teach what they know. But teachers here have some background in Latin Ballroom dancing or they don't know anything about Cuban dancing. So, naturally they are interested in promoting the styles they teach. All of teachers in
Toronto have said they they studied in New York, LA or Puerto Rico. But none have studied in Cuba. Why is that? And why aren't Cuban dancers (not Cuban-American dancers) invited to these Salsa Congresses. I am sure most would agree Cuban music played a large part in Salsa music. Chincub

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May 2, 2002 -- Monica's response to Frank (Why does Ballroom Style Salsa Look So Artificial?)

Frank, you obviously need to open your eyes and take a look around you. First of all, as a former competitor of ballroom dancing, I can state that one of the main factors that ballroom comprises of is artisism and creativity. I dont know what kind of mechanical and emotionless ballroom dancers you have been exposed to, but for the most part, ballroom dancing; at least when it is danced properly, is not only a dance of precise technique, sharp movements and beautiful posture and poise, but an expression of emotions, much like salsa.
I made the switchover from ballroom to salsa for a few reasons, but none have anything to do with ballroom's lack of expression. Have you ever watched a professional ballroom couple? If so, you can clearly see the manner in which they conduct their movements with all that they have; everything inside of them, and every last speck of emotion they are feeling. Their passion visibly shines through, and it cannot be ignored. They dance for the music, for their soul, and definitely from the heart.
That said, when someone like me who has an extensive ballroom dancing background (as well as ballet, jazz, hip hop, modern, etc) goes on to dance salsa, yes, the transition may be difficult at first. However, that is not to say that the dancer cannot take these other forms of dance and use them to their advantage while dancing salsa. People who dance 'uptight' and 'stiff' are simply uptight and stiff, for whatever reason. That does not make them people who dance 'ballroom style salsa'. Ive seen these people myself I can tell you that it has nothing to do with their training in ballroom, but simply their ability to adapt to different forms of dance. And, if they do happen to have good posture, it proves to be beneficial to them, as it adds class to their dancing and individual style.
Overall, as you stated yourself, dancing salsa is about the emotions and feelings involved, and the expression of both. Please do not place people in categories simply because they have had training in other forms of danceThere are people who feel the music and people who dont, but it has nothing to do with whether they have danced ballroom or not -- Monica

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May 2, 2002 -- For the love of Ballroom and Salsa

Dear Rose,
Congratulations on a very thoughtful and factual rebuttal to Chincub. Truth needs to be told and I have great faith that time will reveal the truth. One of the perils of having a completely open discussion is that we have to bear with the chafe in order to get to the wheat.

I think people get into trouble when they begin to insist that others dance the way that they do. Perhaps this could be extended beyond the world of dancing. Blind faith and opinions bring about all the pain, heartache and suffering around us. Democracy and freedom of speech also carries with it the responsibility to weigh one?s words carefully.

Let us ponder and reflect upon some of the phrases expressed. Phrases such as ?overly extended arms, legs, unatural hip action, etc.,? Firstly, the use of ?etc.,? ought to be avoided as this not a precise expression. One could make an argument that dancing naked is natural as after all we are born naked. Yet we do not dance naked, does that make us un-natural when we dance fully clothed. From whence has there been a standard set about the sensibility of art? Do Salsa dancers not train equally hard and by whose standards are dancers to be judged on how hard they train?

Let us perhaps visualize this. A cellist begins practicing on a cello. Soon it becomes an instrument of preference as the cellist becomes familiar with all the sound it makes and how to cause it to sing in the way the cellist wants it to. There are many other great cellos around but the cellist favours her own instrument as she is familiar with it. Now, is she familiar with it because she likes it or she like it because she is familiar with it?

In many ways we may hold steadfast to the style of a dance because we are familiar with it. Do we like it because we are familiar with it or we are familiar with it because we like it?

" I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance Better than Myself...? Mikhail Baryshnikov"

P.S. Perhaps it is time to change the title of this forum to "For the love of Ballroom and Salsa". Richard

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May 3, 2002 -- Response from Joekim: unaturalism and cellos

For Richard:
What if the cellist believes the only way to play the cello is his way and he has the power to make peole believe so. He becomes popular in his own country and thereby negating the people who taught him and people who play cellos in other countries. That is the story of Latin Ballroom. Each person doesn't dance so orginally as you think. Most social dancers dance like their teachers.

For Monica:
Cha Cha Cha, not Cha-Cha, is actually from Cuba. The original way to dance Cha Cha Cha is from Cuba. So, Latin Ballroom Cha Cha Cha is a variation on the original. Latin Ballroom Rhumba, is actually a Cuba Son, but they put the name Rumba to make it sound more sexy. Rumba is a form of Afro-Cuban music and dance. And you can actually argue that Salsa is a form of Cuban son. It is the SAME beat. So, when Ballroom dancers dance their Rhumba, actually it is a form of salsa. So, they have been dancing to salsa and they don't even know it. In Cuba, still many people call Salsa Son. So, actually, while Ballroom dancers pretend that Salsa and Latin Ballroom are different things. The dancing is certainly different, but the music is the same.

To Rose:
Of course, there is a more showy form of Argentine Tango, a kind of show Tango for export. But this show Argentine Tango is very very very different from the Latin Ballroom Tango. Also, keep in mind, there are Cuban and Colombian show salsa dancers too. They do tricks and different of spins too, but no flips or dips though. Cuba and Colombia have more social dancers than in Canada. But you can't compare a New York style or LA style dancer who has studied professionally with Cuban or Colombian normal people. You have to compare professional dancers with professional dancers. You can't compare Juan (Joe Blow, a normal guy from Cuba) with Francisco Vasquez or someone like that. You have to compare studio trained or school taught dancers or preformance dancers with people are similar to them in other countries.

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May 4, 2002 -- Latin vs. Ballroom

A long, heated discussion! I have nothing against ballroom dancing. In fact I admire their precision, elegance and skill. I wish I could spin like they do. I dance Cuban and NY style and it would be hypocritical to deny that the LA and NY style retain many elements from ballroom dancing, BUT add the sensual street style and borrow from many other dances. If you are debating where to get salsa lessons, please don't go to a ballroom! There is nothing more comical than seeing a stiff couple waltz around a dance floor without regards to other couples around them, doing poses and dips that ARE NOT GOING WITH THE MUSIC and look awkward. I have nothing against dips. In fact, I love them, but the main purpose of a dancer should be to go with the music (dip when the song breaks or the music ends). So don't worry about your toe pointing and your tip-toe stance and have fun. Shake your hips, roll your shoulders, play with your hair. Once you get the flavor and the escense of the dance, you can take ballroom lessons for elegance and technique. Que rico el mambo! Diego

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May 4, 2002 -- Frank's Response to Monica . . .

I understand your message completely and I see where you can possiby not totally comprehend what I am trying to say, but you can you totally see what I am saying - or does anyone else can put it in better words? Bad artistry is bad artistry regardless of what dance it is; it just so happens that most people from ballroom background who dance Salsa in Toronto, do lack to Afro-Cuban elements involved in their dance. I never said good posture makes you look stiff, and I would never claim either that straight posture is better than a more relaxed natural posture. I am talking mainly about people who do international Latin ballroom "style" to Salsa music. Where is the artistic impression of figure eight hip movement or walking like a giraffe when the music is so passionate, or there even no musical accents to warrant it? I am not saying that musicality is only deprived in ballroom dancers who dance Salsa as everyone suffers from it. I'm sorry, although I am an average dancer, I go out it in the clubs a lot and I have a background in music--and NO ONE in Toronto that dances Salsa with a ballroom flavour comes even close to the musicality involved I have many of the top dancers and instructors in Toronto demonstrate. This is not to say that an individual can not evolve into becoming good musically. In fact, most of the things I have observed (and there is a possibility that I have not seen the good ones which I can give to you), most of the Salseros who dance a very ballroom style - this is what you'll see: Hand popping, figure eight movements, dip, sudden burst of energy, locked arms, hops, --for no apparent reason in the music - sure they have the right to do so - but please you can't possibly tell me that there's artistry on that? As I've mentioned ballroom dancing discipline is not in question as I know nothing of ballroom dancing (although I am familiar with its structure and highly political judging system in competition - Salsa is probably no exception). As you will probably agree, there is good and bad in every dance - do you think its entirely possible that those who do go into Salsa actually need to take Salsa lessons from people who have actually taken time specialize in Salsa (Soles, Vladimir ?, Stephanie Gurnun, Jennifer and Giovanni, Giovannie Torres, UnitedSalsas, Dance To Live, etc, etc, etc.

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May 5, 2002 -- For the love of Ballroom and Salsa

Dear Frank,
You have really gone out on a limb this time. How can you categorically state that those who danced ballroom who dance Salsa in Toronto lacked artistry. Every accomplished ballroom dancer that I personally know of are superior Salsa dancers. Furthermore, have you really interviewed Salsa dancers to determine whether they danced International Latin Ballroom? And if they do, how many years of International Latin Ballroom and at what level. So you do have a background in music. With your background in music, you are just an average dancer! What makes you think that these hand popping figure eight movements, dips, sudden burst of energy, locked arms, hops actually came from their extensive ballroom training background? Are you just assuming that that is where it came from since you "know nothing of ballroom dancing". You know nothing of ballroom dancing but you have anointed yourself a critic of ballroom dancers and Salsa dancer who in your judgement dances a ballroom style. Do you even realize that some of the top Salsa Dance Instructors you have listed has strong ballroom training. Frank, you do owe ballroom dancers a sincere apology. Incidentally, this is nothing personal as my dance background was exclusively Salsa and I did learn and still am learning from many of the instructors you mentioned. Recently, I began to take International Ballroom lessons. I do find that my Salsa dance background helps in learning International Ballroom. Rhumba, which belongs to one of the International Latin Ballroom dance group is very sensual appeal if danced properly. Finally, musicality is musicality, it is a developed art which can be applied to ballroom or Salsa.

This is in reply to Joekim:

Joekim, you have raised a "what if" question. A "what if" question does not really warrant a reply. Secondly, I frequently sense that you tend to politicise Art. There is a flaw in your logic. A brilliant Cellist does not simply become one because he believes that he is so. And because he believes that he is brilliant, he can persuade others to do so as well. A Cellist who has a commanding presence in music is most likely too busy playing at recitals and concerts. History tells us that politicians, however, do misuse or abuses music for their purpose. Wagner is a genius composer. Hitler laid claim to his music as did some communists. Joekim, are you a dancer or a politician? Perhaps you feel that the world is against the various strains of South American and Island Salsa, let me assure you, it is not. If memory serves me correctly, Casino dancing was illegal not too long ago in Cuba. Banned by a politician!

" I Do Not Try to Dance Better than Anyone Else. I Only Try to Dance Better than Myself... Mikhail Baryshnikov"

Richard

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May 6, 2002 -- Latin Ballroom as Art?

Richard, My "what if" is actually a reality. Wagner might be art. But you really think Ballroom dancing
is an art? Then I guess synchronized swimming must be art. Also, do you really think art is free from from politics? The popularity of artists are bond by fashion and by the prevailing tastes. Dance and music are shaped by economics and culture. Nobody said the world is against Latin Salsa.

I am just saying Latin Ballroom dancing is not very Latin. But why do ballroom dancers insist it is? When Ballroom dancers call Cha Cha Cha Cha-Cha and they call it Rhumba instead of Cuba son, I think it has been already politicized. There were no Cubans in England to tell them otherwise, so Latin Ballroom just became Latin dancing. Frank and Irene Castle saw how the black people danced in the United States,
made it more digestible for white Americans. Same case here.

If a person wants to look for dance lessons, usually most of studios are Ballroom studios. And Latin Ballroom teachers can only teach what they know because they can't Cuban salsa dancing. I am just a person who feels that popular culture should be examined and not taken for granted as true. Joekim

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May 6, 2002 -- Comments

Frank: As far as the artistry of the people you see on the floor who do balroom figures, I fear you have no understanding of what the moves actually mean. As you said, you are an average dancer, so I don't hold that against you.

I recommend you find a "salsa styling" class/workshop to acquire basic understanding of hand/hip movements. Then you can apply these techniques in your dancing and maybe become a better than average dancer.

Dancers usually do not perform out of context moves unless they are really, bad tasteless dancers without a musical ear. Before you rush to critizice others, you should videotape yourself dancing and then dare to watch. Michael

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May 6, 2002 -- Response to Richard

When I mentioned something about not knowing anything about ballroom dancing, it does not mean I am not educated about dance. I have background in ballet and hip-hop, and I can tell you for a fact (and I know the individuals I see learned what they learned from ballroom dancing). I am beginner in Salsa--the figures are fairly easy to learn, but the partner work and Afro flavour is harder element to acquire, unless you have a background in African dance. Again, WHERE IS THE ARTISTRY AND MUSICALITY INVOLVED whenever doing highly exaggerated moves that have nothing to do with the music? Here is a point by point example of what I mean . . . there are about at least 8-15 instruments in Salsa music alone, and here is what you see...
1. rhythmic changes within the song structure
2. Dips, Flips, Hand pops, foot extensions without any relationship to the music, or ANY OF the musical instruments in the music (for that matter, even regular Salsa people suffer from this)
3. One Dimension dancing - it always looks like they are on drugs or had a caffeine overdose
. . to mention a few
And yes, I am aware that some of the instructors I have mentioned do have a ballroom training, but for the ones I have mentioned to you, I don't think ANY of them would dance Salsa as if they were doing a high-speed Rumba! Frank

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May 6, 2002 --Monica's response to Frank (written in extreme frustration)

Richard was right, Frank, you really have gone out on a limb. The nerve you have to actually criticize something that you cannot possibly understand, as well as something you obviously have no taste in yourself. You stated, WHERE IS THE ARTISTRY AND MUSICALITY INVOLVED whenever doing highly exaggerated moves that have nothing to do with the music? Frank, it is high time you took some time to develop your own artistry and creativity, in order to appreciate the dancing of others. How can you make such a senseless statement that completely contradicts your own theories? You say ballroom dancers lack creativity when dancers make certain movements or as you say exaggerated moves, how do you know it is not a reflection of their own feelings and emotions? How can you say it has nothing to do with the music? If they are feeling something, they translate and interpret it into their dancing, and in my opinion, this is a beautiful thing that cannot be taught, not judged. Technique, yes, can be evaluated, as it is something meant to be exact, precise and whatnot. However, when a dancer dances from the soul it cannot be criticized. It is similar to someone trying to criticize poetry; it simply cannot be done. How can one's feelings be questioned?

You also made the following remark that made me laugh endlessly NO ONE in Toronto that dances Salsa with a ballroom flavor comes even close to the musicality involved I have many of the top dancers and instructors in Toronto demonstrate Oh really Frank. I apologize for having to be so blunt with you right now, but someone needs to snap you back into reality and out of the little bubble you have been floating in which would explain your isolation from good dancers. To make such a comment as this one simply proves the ignorance and lack of brain power you must possess. What on earth does a background in ballroom have to do with musicality? Enough said, your ridiculous comment speaks for itself.

All in all, (poor little misguided Frank), there is no need for jealousy toward the higher skilled dancers, and we don't blame you, as you are a self-proclaimed average dancer. Your background in music gives you a good ear for the rhythm and beat breakdown in salsa music, congratulations; we're all very impressed. However, it will not improve your own creativity, so just GIVE IT UP!!! I think I speak for many of us who are reading this ongoing debate. Perhaps you should focus your time and energy on something more productive, like becoming a better dancer yourself (both artistically and technically) And then we may possibly take your opinions and dim-witted comments into consideration.

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