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TOsalsa section to meet the growing needs of our readership...
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Dear
TOsalsa! -- Cuban Dance
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23, 2004 -- Chincub's e-mail about Afro-Cuban Styling March 11 March 11, 2004 -- Afro-Cuban styling There is a new video about Cuban salsa dancing styling. Look at the video clip: www.boogalu.com/movies/muevelacintura.mov As you can see, there are cross body leads and spins. And notice that that the girls do the outside turn sooner on the 1, as supposed to the 2. This shows the real Afro-Cubans styling. Do you think you can dance like this if you take Afro-Cuban styling with the United Salseros or Casino with City Corps? United Salseros are excellent teachers and dancers, but we are comparing apples and oranges. That's why, I said watching an United Salsero dance with a girl from D'Talle is like watching a trapped animal in a cage. If a good Cuban girl tries to follow the lead of LA style dancer she will feel limited and trapped. Many LA or New York dancers find it hard to control the dancing of Cuban women because they dance all over the place even the spins. This is not to say the United Salseros are bad dancers, which they definitely are not. But Casino is very different from North American salsa dancing. Casino should teach from the basic foundations, not as an add-on to New York or LA style dancing. How can you teach Casino Rueda if you don't teach the girls to turn on 1 instead of the 2 which they are normally used to dancing. People think they can go to Cuba for one week of vacation or just watch a Cuban teacher instead of taking classes with him and then be qualified to teach Casino. Casino is a dancing style. You can't take away Casino from casino rueda. A final note, some instructors should take off their homepages that they taught at the First Cuban Salsa Congress last year. There was no Salsa Congress in Cuba. It was cancelled. -- Chincub February 24, 2004 -- Here We Go Again (To Chincub) "Upset and defeated because I didn't backpedal (there was no backpedaling to do), Columbiana now accuses me of saying that other styles of salsa dancing are too commmercial and too ballroom. She also says I think the only things I see as beautiful are in Cuba." --You presume too much. Upset and defeated? What do you think this is? The Ultimate Fighting Championship? Geez, you give your opinions far too much credit. It doesn't matter that I never wrote these things. (AND I never wrote these things. It was someone else who was in my camp.) It was her knee jerk reaction to what she thinks people like me think. Of course, she never takes time out to read what I am actually saying. I said Cubans think other types of salsa dancing are stiff. I said Cuban style dancing for me goes with the music better than other types of dancing. Cuban style dancing is as commerical as any other style of dancing. Probably they are Cubans who dance stiff. The Cubans who were in New York went out dancing in tuxedos and elegant clothes. So, they danced accordingly, very stiff. But salsa was never meant to be danced like this all the time. Which was how they took in New York. I have said the Colombians in Cali, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans dance salsa very well. They know how to dance with the music. I admire ballroom dancers. I can't do what they do. They are incredible athletes. --Uh...is this you talking for sure? An improvement from your earlier posts, but then look below.... But do I think they dance with the music? Not really. Do I want to learn to dance how they do? Not really. -- Chincub --and all the music they hear is imagined. Oh no, perhaps it is not what you think they ought to be hearing. Perhaps, C, you should look at your own dancing style and make an honest self-critical look within the style that you prefer and you may actually learn something if you can actually resists having to shoot down others. -- Columbiana February 18, 2004 - Response to Columbiana from February 6, 2004 Upset and defeated because I didn't backpedal (there was no backpedaling to do), Columbiana now accuses me of saying that other styles of salsa dancing are too commmercial and too ballroom. She also says I think the only things I see as beautiful are in Cuba. It doesn't matter that I never wrote these things. (AND I never wrote these things. It was someone else who was in my camp.) It was her knee jerk reaction to what she thinks people like me think. Of course, she never takes time out to read what I am actually saying. I said Cubans think other types of salsa dancing are stiff. I said Cuban style dancing for me goes with the music better than other types of dancing. Cuban style dancing is as commerical as any other style of dancing. Probably they are Cubans who dance stiff. The Cubans who were in New York went out dancing in tuxedos and elegant clothes. So, they danced accordingly, very stiff. But salsa was never meant to be danced like this all the time. Which was how they took in New York. I have said the Colombians in Cali, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans dance salsa very well. They know how to dance with the music. I admire ballroom dancers. I can't do what they do. They are incredible athletes. But do I think they dance with the music? Not really. Do I want to learn to dance how they do? Not really. -- Chincub February 6, 2004 -- Response to Chincub Cubans are crazy about spins and turns. 70, 71, 72, etc, names of very complicated turn patterns. - Apparently, it's okay when the Cubans do spins or wonderful choreography but the rest of the Salsa community get criticized or overly "ballroomized" or "commercialized." It is apparent that Chincub doesn't see anything beautiful other than than what is beyond Cuba. - ColUmbiana February 5, 2004 -- Response to Columbiana Where is the inconsistency? The fallacy is that there are no complicated turn patterns. Then I go on to say, yes, there are complicated turns like 71, 72, 73, etc. Where is the problem? Where is the contradiction? I didn't quote anybody. The e-mail was entirely mine. I think you misread my e-mail. I read it again and had my friend reread and I think it was clear. So, to your disappointment, I am not back pedaling. I hope you that you are from British Columbia, not Colombia, the South American country. I don't think any Colombiano would spell Colombia with a U. It is a mistake many English speakers make. Don't try to pass yourself as something you are not. -- Chincub February 4, 2004 -- : "Common Fallacies about Cuban style dancing 3) There are no complicated turn patterns. Cubans are crazy about spins and turns. 70, 71, 72, etc, names of very complicated turn patterns." Does anyone see the inconsistencies here considering it was Chinchub who quoted it? Now let's watch the back pedalling. Columbiana February 3, 2004 -- commercial salsa I think turning down any woman because a salsa song is "commercial" is pretty rude. And I think Puerto Rican Power is a pretty good group. But I wish the Latin DJs in Toronto would change their playlists. I always hear the same songs when I go out. I mean these type of salsa songs are not even heard in Latin America. So, these DJs are stuck in a weird retro world of salsa. It would be okay if they played Wille Colon, El Gran Combo, etc. But they play that song Spanglish salsa song Lady or Careless Whisper. I can't dance to these songs. These are really terrible songs. But overheard a well known salsa teacher here say that he loves this song. I think that Rose like this Lady song. Is it because the song is in English that people can relate to it? I have nothing against salsa songs in English. I liked the CD they put out with the salsa versions of famous Beatles's songs. If commercial means popular, then Wille Colon, EL Gran Combo, etc, were commercial in their day too. Why is everyone coming down on DLG? DLG is the reason many non- Latinos started salsa dancing. The members of DLG were not really musicians. But the music was innovative. The producer Sergio George is a genius. He combined New York salsa and Cuban songo and timba. In all the lists of best salsa songs, it is almost impossible to find Cuban songs. That is strange because Paulito F.G., Abalberto Alvarez, La Charanga Habanera, Issac Delgado, Azucar Negra, Manolin "the doctor of the salsa" have sold out concerts in Europe and Latin America, but no one mentions them in the lists. And this is new music. Made in the 1990's. Why this prejudice against Cuban salsa music? Most people agree that Cuba is one of the centers of salsa music. Isn't strange number one salsa hits in Cuba can't make to anyone's salsa top 10 lists? Isn't it strange most "salseros" can't name a famous Cuban singer (expect for Celia Cruz who become famous in the US.) I am looking for forward to Billy Bryans coming back to Canada from Cuba and bringing some new Cuban music to Canada and refreshing the old and stale atmosphere of the Latin music in Canada. -- Alex January 16, 2004 -- Why Cubans find other styles a little stiff I would to give some examples of why some other salsa dancing styles are considered a little stiff and not natural by Cubans without resorting to "dancing without passion or soul" explanations of others. 1) Enjoying and knowing the basic step. Most dancers here consider the basic step something to master quickly in beginner class. For them, the basic step is a good rest before the series of spins, nothing else. The problem is the way they teach the basic step here. One big step forward with the left (quick, quick slow), feet together, and big step back with the right (quick, quick, slow). They never tell you that almost all good dancers never put their feet exactly together. Most dance with one foot slightly ahead of the other. It takes a lot effort (and stiffness) to put your feet exactly together and it causes a lot of people to lose their balance. Cubans to tend to take smaller steps and tend to step somewhere with the second quick (instead of doing it on the spot). Yes, my friends, you can dance and step with the second quick. Whereas people here do the spins for the girls to their right on the second quick. Step forward on your left, pivot, turn, feet together. Many Cubans are already turning on the first quick. And if you do the basic step, keep passing your feet and try to put your right foot a little ahead of your left, you can end up with your right foot in front and you left foot back. Of course, the timing of the step would be different. The SLOW would be when the feet are furthest apart. In other words, when the right is in front that is your slow and when the left is back that is your slow. Doing the SLOW when the feet are furthest apart is a popular step in Cuba. And this is perhaps why most non Cubans find it hard to dance with Cubans. But it is NOT a shine. It is still just the basic step. In LA style basic step, the slow is when the feet are together. Cubans might to the LA style big left forward and big right back for styling, but it would only be for a few seconds whereas here has been made in to a basic step. LA syle dancers might consider Cuban basic style basic steps as styling, whereas in Cuba it is the norm. Cuban basic steps stress movement. Whereas North American style salsa is more in a box or slot. In Cuba, many people walk out their steps. The cross body lead in Cuba is called the paseo o dile que no. Paseo means walk, so cross body lead should be like walking. In North America, they teach the girls to end their cross body leads by spinning with their feet together and face the man and then right foot back. A lot of North American spins are on the spot. The slot and the box are always stressed. Cuban spins always end up in a different place from where you started. North American cross body leads are rectangular, large where man and woman always switch places. a perfect 180 degree cross body lead. In Cuba, most cross body leads are curved. Most you can make the cross body what ever way you want. You can make a 30, 90, 180, or close to a 360 degree cross body lead. It is about variation and options. That's why, most Cubans women feel limited and trapped when dancing North American style salsa although most can follow the lead. Have you ever seen a United Salsero dance with a girl from all girl salsa band D'talle? It is like watching a animal trying get out of her cage. All the girl wants to do is dance, but they put her through a series of nonending spins on the spot -- Chincub January 15, 2004 -- aesthetics meets history in transcultural afro-cuban dance Saludos a todos mis companeros y companeras! As a student of afro-cuban history and dance, a question that i would like to raise with dancers, DJs, instructors, promoters, club-owners... is how do people situate themselves historically in terms of the present cultural moment of afro-cuban dance? What do people come to understand about the orishas when they are learning afro-cuban forms of expression? How do people's everyday lives and previous ways of knowing the world come into play with what they are learning in afro-cuban dance classes? how does afro-cuban dance influence everyday life? In past discussions (e.g., November 3, 2002 -- Cuban Salsa? Why is it not that popular in Toronto?), some people have commented that they are not so interested in 'afro-cuban style' as an aesthetic because it is less complicated, challenging or appealing compared with other styles of dance... but for those who are interested in teaching Afro-Cuban dance and playing Afro-Cuban music, how is your commitment to Afro-Cuban dance and music informed? How do we understand the cultural survival of Afro-Cuban forms of expression? -- in terms of a need to protect and concretize Afro-Cuban 'roots'? Or in terms of an Afro-Cuban culture that has proliferated and shifted and resisted reproduction for hundreds of years, and even in its yoruban antecedents? Do you see Afro-Cuban dance and music as an extension of a long history of creative resistance working alongside or within coloniality? Is there an interest in teaching about the context of the aesthetic aspects of Afro-Cuban dance? if so, what would you say or do, particularly in the context of making Afro-Cuban performance viable for a public that is not always so sympathetic in sharing a sense of its importance. Looking forward to this conversation! Cariños, christine December 26, 2003 -- Cuban origin of Salsa As a half Cuban...musician (Salsa) born in New York- I was in high school in the mid-to late 60’s. I saw the Boogaloo era (Large involvement of black-American musicians and elements) flow into the very patriotic Salsa movement early 70's. What a lot of people don't realize is that almost all(85-90%) of the songs themselves were Cuban. Every band I played in and heard on records and radio were rearranging and/or copying old Cuban standards. If the NY sound- (Chord extensions, progressions) was not placed over old Chappotin, Machito, Arsenio lyrics and inspirations (verbatim)and music I could see how one would look at Salsa as a N.Y. Puerto Rican phenomenon. But this wasn’t the case. The great Boricua musicians I associated with-I'm ashamed to admit knew more about Cuba and it's music much more than I did. Whatever I know about Cuba I owe to the Boricua's. These guys IMMERSED themselves in Tata Guines, Cachao, Guillermo Barretto, Yeyito Iglesias, Chocolate, Chombo, and Chico O'Farrill. I dare to say that If U.S. rhythym and Blues, Rock n Roll and Jazz were not present on the Radio and T.V. the music (Salsa) would have even been and remain more Cuban than it is today. I used to marvel that despite those outside influences(R n'B, R n R, Jazz) quite a few bands would play and search to be more tipico...Pacheco, Ralph Roig, Sonora Poncena. There were bands that held on to the Conjunto style- NO TIMBALES-Pacheco, Pete"Conde", Roberto Torres. The N.Y. Charanga' s displayed even less originality. They were virtually carbon copies of Aragon, Sensacion and Fajardo. I also marveled at the fact that hardly any Bomba and Plena were even considered- this made Willie Colon and Mon Rivera's "there goes the neighborhood" the tremendous and original groundbreaker it was, along with Zaperoko. You have to understand one Salsa Hit maker- I won't say his name, would listen to Cuban shortwave radio, tape the songs; and change or update the arrangements. When the day comes that the embargo is lifted the amount of royalties due the Cuban songwriters will be staggering. Oddly enough the music that is in fact a more original N.Y., Boricua innovation - SALSA ROMANTICA is put down overwhelmingly. I don't like all of it but a lot of it is very well done. I just feel that there should be more of interplay as far as radio play balance between Salsa Dura and Romantica. What I like about romantica is the more relaxed tempo...why does every song -Old School have to sound like the Players are kicking someone's A _ _? Slow down a little. Also a lot of the Musicians who criticize it- can't do it. Remember: Playing slower and swinging is more difficult than playing fast. My final thought: It’s All Salsa- But It's overwhelmingly CUBAN MUSIC> Que Viva/Love Bobby November 15, 2003 -- Answer to Luis P. I think most of the Cubans are who posting messages respect all kinds of salsa and all kinds of salsa dancing. It is just from them, salsa is still basically Afro-Cuban music and the original source of salsa music. Therefore, it is the original source of salsa dancing. And Luis, they don't even acknowledge the original sources of the music. They call Cha Cha Cha CHA CHA. What they teach as rumba is actually a bolero son. They don't even bother to mention that Latin in Latin America people dance very differently. Ballroom dancing is way of marketing and packaging Latin dancing for many Americans. But unfortunately, it seems to rob samba, rumba, salsa, mambo of its distinct African feel and replace with East Coast swing, or jazz. -- Rosmary November 12, 2003 -- Not all Cubans Are Alike - We appreciate all kinds of Salsa This my first time posting, and this is a great and somewhat controversial site. It would be good if you can make this a discussion forum and would like to hear other people's opinion of it. I am a native-born Cuban and dance salsa socially. I LOVE the fact that Salsa has grown both in Cuba and all over the world with difference and variations. Whenever ballroom dancers teach Salsa or Cha-Cha-Cha, or rumba, etc.,it will be nice if they acknowledge the fact that what they are learning has a different form from its original predecessor, but I am not saying that it has no value or place in North American society, and whether i like it or not is irrelevant. What disturbs me is some posts that so NATIONALISTIC and somewhat borders on racism as nothing is of value that does not fit their idea of what is correct because it is not Cuban enough. I love Cuban dancing, and I would like to see it danced in Toronto more often (Miami style or Havana style I personally do not care), but I get embarrassed sometimes when I see flag waving as nothing else is better or "not real" if it ain't Cuban because many of us certainly do not. The idea of dance is to retain the past and to evolve. Get used to THAT idea or go extinct! - - Luis P October 1, 2003 -- Cuban Style Salsa Hello, I have just discovered your forum while surfing the web and I am extremely interested in learning the "feel" of cuban dance. My first trip to Habana was in May and my second is in two weeks. If anyone can offer me the names of any instructors (or Cuban dancers who can teach) in Habana I would greatly appreciate it. Lou, your contribution is excellent. If I had a way to get in touch with you, I would. I will be leaving for Habana on October 13th and if you could share with me any of your contacts I would be grateful. Thanks todd@watersidewoolens.com July 13, 2003 -- Dancing lessons in Cuba
We are planning to go for vacation in Cuba and combine it with salsa
lessons (advanced level). We would appreciate it if you could give us
some tips on how or where to find good instructors -- Yioulica June 26, 2003 -- why some people think Cuban dancing is rough 1) For the turn when women turn to the outside in the "mambo" position, Cuban women start turning on 2 rather than the 3 that they do in New York or LA. So, Cuban men start the turning women here faster than they expect here. 2) Spins in Cuban dancing move around the floor. In LA or New York style dancing, people like to spin the girls in one spot. And they spin the girls like they are conducting an orchestra. In Cuba, every spin means move. In NY or LA, the basic spin for the girl in the "mambo" spin leaves in the same position before and after the spin. The same spin in Cuba, makes her travel more and leaves her in a different place. 3) Women in NY or LA style have their arms too rigid for Cuban style dancing. I can understand this because you need more resistance to do the multiple spins in one direction. Multiple spins in one direction (you know where the girl continues to spin and spin in one direction) is rare in current Casino. 3) LA or NY style dancers dance the basic in a slot. Cubans basic step ot cross body leads move around the dance floor. Never back and forth and never the straight cross body leads of North American style. Cubans seem more agressive with women because they want them to move around the dance floor and move their hips. But of course almost all Cuban men can dance with good
LA or June 26, 2003 -- Re: Conversation with Bong about Cuba It is because it is so difficult for Cuban dancers to perform outside Cuba that many people have never really seen Cuban dancing. For example in this forum, many people have said the following FALSE statements. 1) There are no cross body leads in Cuban style dancing 2) Cuban dancing is basically Toronto old style dancing
or Colombian (but they usually spell it like Columbian) "cumbia"
dancing These statements are untrue !! Or people see some Cuban and they think all Cubans dance that way. They are many bad dancers in Cuba too because a higher percentage of Cubans dance salsa than Canadians. If I go to the Plaza Flamingo on a Saturday night, would I conclude this is the level of salsa dancing in Toronto? Many dancers that most tourists see in Cuba are cabaret dancers. They are really just for show and tourists. They are not real salsa or casino dancers. Too bad the Cuban salsa congress was cancelled. It was doomed from the start because it is very difficult for Americans to travel to Cuba. It was also very difficult for American companies to sponsor this event. Without the Americans there, they couldn't sell enough tickets. And most of the dancers who are into Cuban style dancing didn't want to hang out with the LA and New York style "all-stars" in Cuba. So, they went by themselves. It is too bad because they would have seen what real dancing is about. Just ask Bong. People think just because Cuba is communist that salsa dancing has not developed in Cuba. It is the opposite. The separation of North America has allowed to develop on its own. In North America, Salsa dancing was influenced by ballroon and disco. Thst's why, Casino still looks uniquely different. -- Chincub March 31, 2003 -- Experience in Cuba First of all, Rose, this is a great web site! There's a wealth of information in your site, and I look forward to exploring it more. I agree with on of your reader's experience in Cuba. Cuban dancing is very beautiful and just like any other country has its share of good and bad dancers. I disagree, however, that Cuban dancing is not choreographed and no one shows off. I have been to Cuba 7 times (not just the tourist areas), and I could tell you that even amongst the locals you have your "clicks," and "elite" groups. This is not a "dancing" issue but a human issue. Every body rotation, shake, etc. and basic step is choreographed, regardless whether you learn it through watching or school instruction. While dancing may be intrinsic talent for some, people stil need some kind of instruction to learn. Cuba in fact has one of the most progressive instructional dance schools in the world, and some of my dancer friends of Paris have taken lessons there from the some of the teachers they have. My point is not to put Cuban dancing down or the music as I LOVE the Cuban rumba and their traditonal folkloric dances, but rather to point out that every country has their own problems in their own dancing scene. Although I grew up in London, I agree that most North Americans and Europeans may never feel the same way Cuban's feel and dance their music, but it is dead wrong to assume that what other feels outside of Cuba is of no value and people should be more careful and how they address their opinion. My background involves Lindy Hop, and I'm relatively new to Salsa, but there's also a lot of exhiliration felt whenever two people are connected doing fantastic turn patterns and dips and flips, which some people who never dance complicated turn patterns may or may never experience. Dancing is a subjective experience, and Cubans are entitled to express their love of dancing and music the way they want to. The same goes with the Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, and so forth. Again, Rose, great site! -- Agosto November 18, 2002 -- Upcoming trip to Cuba
Hi. I am Randall and I am taking my first trip to Cuba on December 1
2002, and staying in Varadero. I learned of your site from United Salsaros
emails. I have not been to active in the TO Salsa scene in the last
year, but when I travel I love to visit Salsa clubs (which I have done
in Europe and South America over the past few years. September 25, 2002 -- Salsa Dance Classes in Cuba A salsa-dance holiday package is being offered in Havana, Cuba this November. The 1-week vacation includes 3 hours of dance instruction daily. For more info, pleases see the website:www.conferencetours.com and click on "Havana Salsa Holiday" -- Barbi September 23, 2002 -- Learning Salsa in Cuba
Hello, I'm interested in going to Havana for a week and finding some
kind of a Salsa Vacation package. Something along the lines of airfare,
hotel, meals, and 3-4 hours of intense one on one training. I've been
dancing for about 4-5 months now. I think this would make an incredible
trip.. to be able to live it all..the lessons, the country, the night
life in Havana. If you guys know of anyone who organizes something along
these lines please let me know. Thanks!!!:) Anna |